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Wraithbrigade/Scatbike spam
Marine Biker lists/Librarius Conclave and invisibility being spammed on triple Vindicator squadrons
30K units being brought against 40K armies
Primarchs.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Wraithbrigade/Scatbike spam
Marine Biker lists/Librarius Conclave and invisibility being spammed on triple Vindicator squadrons
30K units being brought against 40K armies
Primarchs.

What, because it's unfair that the 40k army will always crush the hamstrung 30k CAD?

Take whatever primarch you like. Heck, pick 2. I'll take a perfectly ordinary, 40k legal Imperial Knight.

Let's see which side wins...

Martel732 wrote:
Riptides are very unfair.

No, Games Workshop is being unfair by overpricing / underpowering your Blood Angels models. I need a Riptide to counter wraiths, and other Necron bs that's super-resistant to shooting.

If I'm playing against you, we can talk things out in advance, about how to balance a top-tier codex versus a lower-middle tier one if that. We shouldn't have to do this, it's extra work that Games Workshop is giving us, but we can. I like it when both players have fun, which is why I posted that damned Tau thread earlier to begin with. Telling me I effed up just by buying a model I like gets that process off to a very poor start.

Martel732 wrote:
If they didn't have mass firepower, I would be happy to ignore them.

If your faction wasn't based around elite infantry, my Riptide wouldn't be able to pie plate its points cost worth of models so quickly. And if GW gave you easier access to grav weapons, my sinking that many points into a 2+ model would be risky.

Either way, I'm keeping it far away from jump-pack-equipped assault marines.

 Buttery Commissar wrote:
To me, cheese is something that intentionally stops me from being able to play a game before I get chance to participate.
If by taking second turn, I am left with absolutely no options of retaliating or taking part with even (or slightly diminished) chance to win, then that's not a game.

I don't mean an accidental lucky strike on my warlord, I mean a planned shut-down by the opponent that just leaves me neutered before I get to make a decision.

Once upon a time, this happened when Daemons faced off against Ward Knights(tm)... Except that, the complaints of Daemon players were put down to nothing more than whining, and Warp Quake was merely considered fluffy & fair by GK players, who insisted that without that power, Daemons were auto-win against them because "Flamers are OP". (and this was well before WD made them into truly broken filth!)

The vast majority of players consider anything their codex can do is just fluffy and well balanced. On the other hand, if their opponent's army can actually remove Speeesh Muhreens, then it's busted filth.

I've had people accuse my Tzeentch Daemons of being OP/cheesy, because;
- A Tzherald cast Misfortune on a Tactical squad, who then were set upon by 9 Flamers... 50+ hits later, there were no more Tactical Marines, and I was a bad person because... "reasons".

- My LoC can strike at S8 in combat. Yes the staff is undercosted, but it's not outright game-breaking. My LoC is slightly better than he probably *should* be, but he's still a Greater Daemon, and golfing Space Marines on a 2+ is still possible anyways due to his base S6. The only significant boost is being able to ID T4/deny FnP saves, but then, almost every single significant Marine character nowadays has T5.
Now if I add Precognition, then it's cheddary goudaness!

- 9 Screamers is apparently excessive.

- 3D6/S6/ap4 shots from a Troops unit is unfair, because even Tau are capped at S5 guns... I'm not even allowed to use the Warpflame Host formation, because apparently S7 is too good for Horrors and makes them batgak insane.

- Allied MoT Warptalons are the absolute filth...

And my personal favourite whine I've had from opponents; My squad of Horrors punching out a Death Co Dreadnought is game breaking in the extreme, while the unit's Tzherald should be banned, because on more than one occasion he's turned Tigurius into a Chaos Spawn in close combat! (oh how I love you Mutating Warpblade! )

 generalchaos34 wrote:
From the guard perspective cheese is any one unit or vehicle that cannot be killed by either 9 lascannons or 100 men with lasguns. (plus orders)

If I cant kill it like that than it simply should not exist in this game.

Is there a unit or vehicle that cannot die to that?

Tons of special rules that get around core mechanics/restrictions that most other armies have to follow. One or two here and there aren't a big deal, but things are getting ridiculous. Eldar, Tau, and Space Marines

 Buttery Commissar wrote:
To me, cheese is something that intentionally stops me from being able to play a game before I get chance to participate.
If by taking second turn, I am left with absolutely no options of retaliating or taking part with even (or slightly diminished) chance to win, then that's not a game.

I don't mean an accidental lucky strike on my warlord, I mean a planned shut-down by the opponent that just leaves me neutered before I get to make a decision.

I agree here. If your opponent is able to, in one turn, remove any ability of yours to have any recourse but to pack your figures away, there's something the matter between the 2 lists
One game I played, a few years back during 6th, was my IG vs opposing DE, who weren't widely viewed as the most competitive army. on my first turn he removed my only vehicle with lance, and my HWS with plain dakka, and as his warriors were all in vehicle, I was left, in my turn, with nothing, as my fantastic S3 guns couldn't even scratch his armour, and my trusty heavy weapons were dead

My point is, any army can be cheesy, if played by someone who knows the ins and outs of a codex and is prepared to WAAC, though naturally this can be done easier with some codices than with others

Things that have a way too high point efficiency.

Or

Combo's that make rocks immune to paper.

 Lord Scythican wrote:

 generalchaos34 wrote:
From the guard perspective cheese is any one unit or vehicle that cannot be killed by either 9 lascannons or 100 men with lasguns. (plus orders)

If I cant kill it like that than it simply should not exist in this game.

Is there a unit or vehicle that cannot die to that?

tons of stuff, this is guard, that means 50 str 3 hits and 4.5 lascannon hits.

lascannons kill most av10, some av 11, not most 12+ though in a turn. if they have cover though even an ork trukk (open top av10) might survive the lascannon hits

on the lasgun side again assuming basic marines wounding on 5s 33 wounds after the 50 hits, 10.89 unsaves wounds after 3+ so it kills a full squad but just barely and luck means some might survive so is a 10 man tac squad OP?

against a MC T6 6's to wound do 8.3 wounds before armor saves assuming a 3+ means 2.75 wounds so again does this mean all mc are OP if they have 3 wounds?

 G00fySmiley wrote:

 Lord Scythican wrote:

 generalchaos34 wrote:
From the guard perspective cheese is any one unit or vehicle that cannot be killed by either 9 lascannons or 100 men with lasguns. (plus orders)

If I cant kill it like that than it simply should not exist in this game.

Is there a unit or vehicle that cannot die to that?

tons of stuff, this is guard, that means 50 str 3 hits and 4.5 lascannon hits.

lascannons kill most av10, some av 11, not most 12+ though in a turn. if they have cover though even an ork trukk (open top av10) might survive the lascannon hits

on the lasgun side again assuming basic marines wounding on 5s 33 wounds after the 50 hits, 10.89 unsaves wounds after 3+ so it kills a full squad but just barely and luck means some might survive so is a 10 man tac squad OP?

against a MC T6 6's to wound do 8.3 wounds before armor saves assuming a 3+ means 2.75 wounds so again does this mean all mc are OP if they have 3 wounds?

I picked some random numbers as a metaphor really, but it seems to apply in the general sense. The armies that rely on massed saves like Guard are a good way to tell how powerful a particular unit is because we do not have many specialty items to deal with them, so we instead drown them in small stuff. The amount of small stuff required to kill something can give you at least a slight idea of how hard something is to kill.

Horrific amount of min maxing.

abuse of loose wording on rules.

stuff like that.

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
Tons of special rules that get around core mechanics/restrictions that most other armies have to follow. One or two here and there aren't a big deal, but things are getting ridiculous. Eldar, Tau, and Space Marines

I think the problem isn't so much that these factions (plus Necrons) have All The Special Rules. It's that other factions are stuck throwing 100 lasguns and 9 lascannons at them, and it's not working as well as it used to.

IIRC, the field of sociology has identified inequality as a root cause of massive social ills. The have-nots are resentful, the haves are afraid, and both sides start blaming the other for (supposedly) choosing to be that way, while ignoring the actual problems. Admittedly, this is a bit wordy for a forum about toy soldiers, but I feel like GW blatantly favouring some factions while completely ignoring others is exactly what I'd do if I wanted the playerbase to be at each others' throats.

I don't think it helps that the fluff and the goddess-damned rulebook are filled with "satirical" xenophobic ideas. If you reacted to Warmachine's "Page 5" with revulsion, and were like "omg they are telling you to beat up your opponent, this is way too WAAC for me," maybe you ought to take a step back and ask yourself if being steeped in fascist slogans and imagery is affecting you. Does anyone remember what Traditio's sig was like before the mods stepped in? Because it was literally the IRL version of "kill the mutant and purge the alien."

They love this game over on Stormfront.

For me cheese is when something is unbalanced for it's points cost (Wraithknight's), or something else, like the unit is balanced perfectly, but then it can be buffed or padded for a really low points cost, like a Stormsurge, can be buffed for 44pts to chuck in 4 pathfinders and the Stormsurge is MUCH stronger now. Cheese is also when someone tailor's a list just for that ONE game, as opposed to them trying to make a cure-all list like most people do

 DarkShade1999 wrote:
For me cheese is when something is unbalanced for it's points cost (Wraithknight's), or something else, like the unit is balanced perfectly, but then it can be buffed or padded for a really low points cost, like a Stormsurge, can be buffed for 44pts to chuck in 4 pathfinders and the Stormsurge is MUCH stronger now. Cheese is also when someone tailor's a list just for that ONE game, as opposed to them trying to make a cure-all list like most people do

What can you do with 2 Marker Tokens? You mean that you play someone who lets you actually use your markerlights?
One of my usual opponents loves the fact that he can make my Stormsurge useless with Paroxysm. Ever tried using a WS0-1\BS0-1 weapons platform? Fortunately there is stomp and markerlights. (another excellent reason to kill the markerlights first)

 DarkShade1999 wrote:
Cheese is also when someone tailor's a list just for that ONE game, as opposed to them trying to make a cure-all list like most people do

Well, playing mostly with friends I tend to change my list for each game. Mostly to try new things, keep things fresh but also to have an interesting game.

A certain amount of list tailoring is fine as long as both players are doing it- with the understanding that both players are doing it.

Cheese would be when something is unbeatable without specifically tailoring a list to beat it. Flyers for example. A reasonable mix of antitank and antiinfantry (the lascannons and lasguns example) IS take all comers until people start dropping superheavies and alpha striking from the skies.
The reasoning is this- If a player has an army and hasn't deliberately avoided taking crowd control or AT weapons- an army made of models that he has bought and paid for- he shouldn't be forced to go buy X to deal with you spamming Y.

That's an arms race and nobody wins but GW.

 carldooley wrote:
What can you do with 2 Marker Tokens? You mean that you play someone who lets you actually use your markerlights?
One of my usual opponents loves the fact that he can make my Stormsurge useless with Paroxysm. Ever tried using a WS0-1\BS0-1 weapons platform? Fortunately there is stomp and markerlights. (another excellent reason to kill the markerlights first)

what you can do with two marker tokens (worth ~30pts)? errr... ignoring cover? fire two destroyer missiles? OR raising your BF by 2 thereby negating the paroxysm?

by the way... do i hear a tau player complaining bout a tyranid player?! seriously?

 G00fySmiley wrote:

 Lord Scythican wrote:

 generalchaos34 wrote:
From the guard perspective cheese is any one unit or vehicle that cannot be killed by either 9 lascannons or 100 men with lasguns. (plus orders)

If I cant kill it like that than it simply should not exist in this game.

Is there a unit or vehicle that cannot die to that?

tons of stuff, this is guard, that means 50 str 3 hits and 4.5 lascannon hits.

lascannons kill most av10, some av 11, not most 12+ though in a turn. if they have cover though even an ork trukk (open top av10) might survive the lascannon hits

on the lasgun side again assuming basic marines wounding on 5s 33 wounds after the 50 hits, 10.89 unsaves wounds after 3+ so it kills a full squad but just barely and luck means some might survive so is a 10 man tac squad OP?

against a MC T6 6's to wound do 8.3 wounds before armor saves assuming a 3+ means 2.75 wounds so again does this mean all mc are OP if they have 3 wounds?

1.4 wounds against an MC with 2+
.5 wounds with FNP?
Thats why people cry over my beloved riptides. But their still not wraithknight bad.

Multiple IG blobs, how are you suppose to take out 150 fearless guardsmen that just won't stop no matter how much you shoot them?!

RedNoak wrote:
what you can do with two marker tokens (worth ~30pts)? errr... ignoring cover? fire two destroyer missiles?

at BS3? no thanks!

RedNoak wrote:
by the way... do i hear a tau player complaining bout a tyranid player?! seriously?

not at all. Just that it is comical when it happens.

Bending rules / exploiting rules for an "unintended" advantage. If your entire army relies on a a loophole that has a 30 page forum debate with no clear resolution, then I'd perhaps be a little salty. There are enough things in the game that are heinously broken without some dodge rule interpretation adding more to that pot.

Also, I'm generally of the impression that most players can be relatively capable of understand what is good and what isn't good in 40k. I'm only really referring to the massive outliers - Riptides / Windriders / Wraithknights / Superfriends etc. When people are clearly aware of the value or strength of their list or choices and then deliberately field those in large amounts in a pre-arranged "fluffy" game, especially a weaker codex. I mean, why do people get off on smashing fluffy CSM lists without ever even having to roll an armoursave? What is the point?

Perhaps these are more accurately descriptions of TFG, but i think that sort of behaviour goes hand in hand with cheesing the game. Cheese isn't necessarily about the models someone fields, it's the way they approach the game and their consideration for their opponent's enjoyment.

If that's not what's meant, then cheese can basically be any of:
Spamming overpowered choices - Riptide, Windriders, Warpspiders
Netlisting - Superfriends, Eldar etc
Deliberately bringing choices your opponent can't handle - full armies of FMC against armies with no skyfire etc
Abusing battlebrothers for massively powerful combinations
Abusing psychic powers - especially invisibility

 TheCustomLime wrote:
If it beats my army then it's cheese. If it benefits my army then it's fair and balanced.

If people were just honest about it, I don't think the hypocrisy would bother me.


I battled against a marine force with 20 Thunderhammer/Stormshield Terminators, 15 Centurions, and a pimped out Space Marine Chapter Master on a Bike who whined for months after losing to my Necron Force with 10 Spyders, scarabs, and Warriors.

in a tournament format nothing can be cheesey. You have to acknowledge that players are going to bring the best stuff that they have to win.

In a friendly game bringing more than one superheavy is cheese.

the_scotsman wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Wraithbrigade/Scatbike spam
Marine Biker lists/Librarius Conclave and invisibility being spammed on triple Vindicator squadrons
30K units being brought against 40K armies
Primarchs.

What, because it's unfair that the 40k army will always crush the hamstrung 30k CAD?

Take whatever primarch you like. Heck, pick 2. I'll take a perfectly ordinary, 40k legal Imperial Knight.

Let's see which side wins...

I see someone has never played against Imperial Guard. 30K nonsense is utterly stupid.

 master of ordinance wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Wraithbrigade/Scatbike spam
Marine Biker lists/Librarius Conclave and invisibility being spammed on triple Vindicator squadrons
30K units being brought against 40K armies
Primarchs.

What, because it's unfair that the 40k army will always crush the hamstrung 30k CAD?

Take whatever primarch you like. Heck, pick 2. I'll take a perfectly ordinary, 40k legal Imperial Knight.

Let's see which side wins...

I see someone has never played against Imperial Guard. 30K nonsense is utterly stupid.

Goodness me, is that a squad of 20 tactical marines on foot with no special weapons? My Imperial Guard are terrified!

Honestly, Eldar have the cheddar. Invisible Psyker deathstars on jet bikes, and jetbikers as troops standard? They should have had an HQ choice that switches jetbikes to troops from fast attack.

I've had challeneges from other armies but the feeling in your gut when your Eldar opponent is already 4-5 points ahead of you on first turn because they can grab any objective on the map in 1 turn...

I think we need a better word than cheese but if we're talking about stuff that i hate (every 40k players favourite pasttime) then I'd go for ATSKNF. I play marines myself but it's just too good for every guy to have base, stuff like triple stormsurges and invisible wraith knights are annoying but this kills me

Eldar seem to do silly things. Also the wolfen new guys are stupid good. they will kill anything they come in combat with. even if they die...

I've also found the perceived cheesiness of a unit, army, or list is a negatively exponential function with the number of times you've actually seen it in a game.

The new Wulfen are pretty much the prime example of that in my eyes. You look at them on paper and you go "WHAT THE GAK???" and then you face them in game and you realize "oh I can just shoot those guys, each one is slightly less tough than 2 tactical marines."

I've played against them 3 times, each time playing with a largely cc-oriented army on my end, and they've only actually gotten to close combat against me once. The first time there were 2 footslogging squads, and I just shot them with shuriken cannons and death jesters, and ended up finishing the last 2 in a squad off with a Solitaire, who just shrugged off the dying attacks. The second time they were in a plane, which didn't come in from reserves until turn 3, and by turn 4 we called the game because a good third of my opponent's army was tied up in this stupid squad of furries in a super-expensive transport plane not doing anything. The third time they were in a land raider, which got blown up by a sqaud of melta vets, and a decent 2-shot manticore volley killed the whole big squad of them.

Are they a half-decent melee unit, more in line with what melee units really ought to be instead of the jokes they usually are? Yeah. are they somehow unbeatable or OP? Pfff, no. They're no invisible TWC-star, even if you bother turning them invisible or something they're slow as hell.

the_scotsman wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Wraithbrigade/Scatbike spam
Marine Biker lists/Librarius Conclave and invisibility being spammed on triple Vindicator squadrons
30K units being brought against 40K armies
Primarchs.

What, because it's unfair that the 40k army will always crush the hamstrung 30k CAD?

Take whatever primarch you like. Heck, pick 2. I'll take a perfectly ordinary, 40k legal Imperial Knight.

Let's see which side wins...

I see someone has never played against Imperial Guard. 30K nonsense is utterly stupid.

Goodness me, is that a squad of 20 tactical marines on foot with no special weapons? My Imperial Guard are terrified!

>10 HW marines
>Ignores cover everywhere
>Deathguard/gravewardens
>Flamer. Squad.
>>IcandowhatIwantbecauseIplaymarinesandGWlovesmeforit.jpg

 master of ordinance wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Wraithbrigade/Scatbike spam
Marine Biker lists/Librarius Conclave and invisibility being spammed on triple Vindicator squadrons
30K units being brought against 40K armies
Primarchs.

What, because it's unfair that the 40k army will always crush the hamstrung 30k CAD?

Take whatever primarch you like. Heck, pick 2. I'll take a perfectly ordinary, 40k legal Imperial Knight.

Let's see which side wins...

I see someone has never played against Imperial Guard. 30K nonsense is utterly stupid.

Goodness me, is that a squad of 20 tactical marines on foot with no special weapons? My Imperial Guard are terrified!

>10 HW marines
>Ignores cover everywhere
>Deathguard/gravewardens
>Flamer. Squad.
>>IcandowhatIwantbecauseIplaymarinesandGWlovesmeforit.jpg

I don't know what you're playing, but 10 Heavy Weapons in a squad usually comes out to just under the price of a Baneblade, which should, with little effort, gently brush aside 10 3+ save Marines with really expensive weapons.

There's actually less ignores cover than in 40k.

Deathguard/Grave Wardens do template spam really well. Templates are bad against tanks. Bring tanks.

Flamer Squads are not compulsory troops choices, and are bad against tanks. Bring tanks.

I actually play Mechanicum and routinely stomp Marines into the ground. Mechanicum are ridiculous against Legion lists, unless they bring a Primarch or something, then it balances out.