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 JimOnMars wrote:

 generalchaos34 wrote:
From the guard perspective cheese is any one unit or vehicle that cannot be killed by either 9 lascannons or 100 men with lasguns. (plus orders)

If I cant kill it like that than it simply should not exist in this game.

Yes and no....100 lasguns can't kill a trukk.

But 9 lascannons can.

The way that I read general chaos' posting is:

"I have 100 lasguns and 9 lascannons. If neither can kill it, it's cheese."

There so many things that can't be killed by the terrible lascannon now. You hardly kill a Riptide with 40 lascannons.

Not to mention that lascannons *can* kill anything in the game. It's just a matter of how many turns it takes, and the platforms firing them.

Heavy Weapon Teams firing lascannons? That's bad.
Leman Russes firing the lascannons? Better.

And are we saying that the (nearly) 3k points Warlord Titan is broken because 9 lascannons, which cost not even a tenth of it's cost, cannot kill it? The metric is rather flawed.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Not to mention that lascannons *can* kill anything in the game. It's just a matter of how many turns it takes, and the platforms firing them.

"Can" should be taken in the sense of "realistically, reliably and efficiently can."

Leave the superheavies, riptides and fliers at home.

 JimOnMars wrote:

 generalchaos34 wrote:
From the guard perspective cheese is any one unit or vehicle that cannot be killed by either 9 lascannons or 100 men with lasguns. (plus orders)

If I cant kill it like that than it simply should not exist in this game.

Yes and no....100 lasguns can't kill a trukk.

but 9 lascannons should do the trick. Note the "or".

I think that's not a bad rule of thumb. Certain daemon stuff isn't terribly OP but neither of those would be able to kill them. Like a GUO has shrouding and 6(7?) wounds, but its hardly meta breaking.

As it is though, if I go first, you could have 10 times that firepower, 100 lascannons, 1000 lasguns, I still probably wouldn't care. So I think that is a bit silly.

However, as a tournament player I have to be prepared to fight 30 jetbikes at some point so I need that much durability.

Martel732 wrote:
Scatterlasers. Pure cheese since day 1.

No they are not.

However, GW has broken a tabu to give each member of a troop unit a heavy weapon.

vercingatorix wrote:but 9 lascannons should do the trick. Note the "or".

I think that's not a bad rule of thumb. Certain daemon stuff isn't terribly ridiculous, like a blood thirster or GUO, but wouldn't care about either one of those but without buffs neither of them would care.

There are ways of running flying bloodthirsters, flying demon princes, etc. that cannot effectively be dealt with via 9 lascannons. Those ways of running them should not be used.

Scatterbikes also cannot effectively be dealt with via 100 lasguns and 9 lascannons. They should not be used.

Ditto for wraithknights, etc.

I find cheese is basically spamming good units, or trying to spam good psychic powers.

Like CSM, you would expect to field one Heldrake, maybe two. Same with Tyranids and Flyrants. Heck, same with Eldar Windriders, Warp Spiders, Wraithknights, SW and Thunderwolf Cavalry, SM with Grav Centurions, Tau with Riptides etc etc.

It's a good unit. You should be taking it. It gets cheesy when you're bringing too many for the opponent to deal with.

Traditio wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Not to mention that lascannons *can* kill anything in the game. It's just a matter of how many turns it takes, and the platforms firing them.

"Can" should be taken in the sense of "realistically, reliably and efficiently can."

Leave the superheavies, riptides and fliers at home.

Man, I hate those cheesy WAAC baneblades. They are so broken and OP because 9 Lascannons, which are terrible AT guns btw, can not efficiently kill it.

Traditio wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Not to mention that lascannons *can* kill anything in the game. It's just a matter of how many turns it takes, and the platforms firing them.

"Can" should be taken in the sense of "realistically, reliably and efficiently can."

Leave the superheavies, riptides and fliers at home.

But I want my "spectacular" gameplay, where "stuff happens".

And if I'm taking a Warlord, in 3k points, you should easily be able to either find the anti-tank capabilities to kill it, OR simply win via capping objective markers.

And do you not recognise the vast points difference between a 3k Warlord, and a 30 point lascannon? Nine lascannons should not be able to bring down a Warlord on tabletop, no matter what universe you come from.

Also, nice to see your support for all those people who bought appropriately costed Titans, UNDERcosted Malcador Tanks and flyers (looking at you, Nephilim), whilst simultaneously showing no opposition to Wraithknights, a FAR WORSE offender than the Riptide (which at least can be insta-killed by force weapons or brought down by grav, the REAL MC killer).* I guess it was their fault for liking something you don't and paying money for that.
I mean, I'm sure it would all be fine if you bought a nice house and not be able to live in it because someone said so.

*I see you corrected that later. Still interesting to see your irrational hatred of Tau overpowering the far more "publicly accepted" opinion of Eldar being worse.

Traditio wrote:

vercingatorix wrote:but 9 lascannons should do the trick. Note the "or".

I think that's not a bad rule of thumb. Certain daemon stuff isn't terribly ridiculous, like a blood thirster or GUO, but wouldn't care about either one of those but without buffs neither of them would care.

There are ways of running flying bloodthirsters, flying demon princes, etc. that cannot effectively be dealt with via 9 lascannons. Those ways of running them should not be used.

Scatterbikes also cannot effectively be dealt with via 100 lasguns and 9 lascannons. They should not be used.

Ditto for wraithknights, etc.

I'm sorry, but what? How can those guns in those numbers not effectively kill those models?

I mean, yeah, the lasguns are wounding scatterbikes on 5's but there's 100 shots. Is it because the bikes get to throw saves?

The lascannon is wounding a wk on 3's, and denying armor save, so it's a 5++ (if with shield) and then the fnp roll. How is that totally unreasonable to kill? Is it because if you don't kill it in the first round of shooting, it rolls your guys in cc?

These two arbitrary guns don't make a good rule of thumb. You don't get to say "well you can't have flyers because these two guns have trouble with that." It makes no sense. It actually lacks your common sense theme you strive for. Common sense would dictate that you prepare for things, not disallow those things.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frozocrone wrote:
I find cheese is basically spamming good units, or trying to spam good psychic powers.

Like CSM, you would expect to field one Heldrake, maybe two. Same with Tyranids and Flyrants. Heck, same with Eldar Windriders, Warp Spiders, Wraithknights, SW and Thunderwolf Cavalry, SM with Grav Centurions, Tau with Riptides etc etc.

It's a good unit. You should be taking it. It gets cheesy when you're bringing too many for the opponent to deal with.

I agree with this. There's no reason not to take good units, and I would think you should expect to face good units. It's when you expect to face good units of varying types and the opponent only has amazing units of one type, making some units significantly less effective for you, that makes the game less fun imo.

But if both players came saying "Let's have a competitive game" then it's all out the window, cheese away.

BossJakadakk wrote:I'm sorry, but what? How can those guns in those numbers not effectively kill those models?

The only guns in that combination which are going to hit the scatterbikes are the lascannons. 24 inch range guns are not going to hit scatter bikes which have: 36 inch range on their guns, 12 inches of movement and 3. battle focus.

Lascannons are not going to reliably kill scatter bikes, which 1. can jink and 2. are only 27 ppm.

The lascannon is wounding a wk on 3's, and denying armor save, so it's a 5++ (if with shield) and then the fnp roll.

That translates to a 3+ save.

And you have to take into account losses. The lascannons are the first thing that the eldar player is going to get rid of.

These two arbitrary guns don't make a good rule of thumb. You don't get to say "well you can't have flyers because these two guns have trouble with that." It makes no sense. It actually lacks your common sense theme you strive for. Common sense would dictate that you prepare for things, not disallow those things.

Those are the only two guns that anybody should actually have to bring. Lascannons are standard dedicated AT, and lasguns are supposed to be standard anti-infantry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sgt_Smudge wrote:But I want my "spectacular" gameplay, where "stuff happens".

Then don't bring a 3k point titan. In a 3k point game, that would be the only model you have on the table.

Idk man, just seems arbitrary. And the argument you're giving me is that because [units] have ways of avoiding or dealing with these "all that should be needed" guns makes them too powerful to be used. There are other weapons that can deal with [units]. It's a game of give and take, some things overpower some other things. Can those weapons kill scatterbikes and wk's? Yes they can. Statistical likelihood and anecdotal evidence and tactics aside, they are perfectly able to. If you want to include stats, experience, and tactics due to abilities of models, then you have to also react to those things in turn. It's a strategy game, not a "Let's all take our lascannons and lasguns and duke it out" game.

Cheddar in 40k, and all tabletop is when you intentionally look for a loophole, exploit, or combination that others would not think of that would give you an unfair advantage over them.

It is also just being very competitive, but I think its a bit cheesy.

Super friends cheese for example. Very competitive, very cheesy.

BossJakadakk wrote:
Idk man, just seems arbitrary. And the argument you're giving me is that because [units] have ways of avoiding or dealing with these "all that should be needed" guns makes them too powerful to be used. There are other weapons that can deal with [units]. It's a game of give and take, some things overpower some other things. Can those weapons kill scatterbikes and wk's? Yes they can. Statistical likelihood and anecdotal evidence and tactics aside, they are perfectly able to. If you want to include stats, experience, and tactics due to abilities of models, then you have to also react to those things in turn. It's a strategy game, not a "Let's all take our lascannons and lasguns and duke it out" game.

That's the other criterion for cheese, imho.

If your list-build largely negates your need for actual strategy once you've placed your models; it's a giant hunk of cheddar.

Traditio wrote:

BossJakadakk wrote:
Idk man, just seems arbitrary. And the argument you're giving me is that because [units] have ways of avoiding or dealing with these "all that should be needed" guns makes them too powerful to be used. There are other weapons that can deal with [units]. It's a game of give and take, some things overpower some other things. Can those weapons kill scatterbikes and wk's? Yes they can. Statistical likelihood and anecdotal evidence and tactics aside, they are perfectly able to. If you want to include stats, experience, and tactics due to abilities of models, then you have to also react to those things in turn. It's a strategy game, not a "Let's all take our lascannons and lasguns and duke it out" game.

That's the other criterion for cheese, imho.

If your list-build largely negates your need for actual strategy once you've placed your models; it's a giant hunk of cheddar.

I'm not sure how this addresses my post. In actuality, there would be no need for a significant level of strategy if all models had the same guns, it's just who rolls better or who gets cover. You don't even need models for that.

Traditio wrote:

BossJakadakk wrote:
Idk man, just seems arbitrary. And the argument you're giving me is that because [units] have ways of avoiding or dealing with these "all that should be needed" guns makes them too powerful to be used. There are other weapons that can deal with [units]. It's a game of give and take, some things overpower some other things. Can those weapons kill scatterbikes and wk's? Yes they can. Statistical likelihood and anecdotal evidence and tactics aside, they are perfectly able to. If you want to include stats, experience, and tactics due to abilities of models, then you have to also react to those things in turn. It's a strategy game, not a "Let's all take our lascannons and lasguns and duke it out" game.

That's the other criterion for cheese, imho.

If your list-build largely negates your need for actual strategy once you've placed your models; it's a giant hunk of cheddar.

Just because you came ill prepared doesn't make your opponent's list cheddar.

BossJakadakk wrote:I'm not sure how this addresses my post. In actuality, there would be no need for a significant level of strategy if all models had the same guns, it's just who rolls better or who gets cover. You don't even need models for that.

ITT:

There is no need for actual strategy in chess, checkers, stratego, etc.!

 TheCustomLime wrote:

Traditio wrote:

BossJakadakk wrote:
Idk man, just seems arbitrary. And the argument you're giving me is that because [units] have ways of avoiding or dealing with these "all that should be needed" guns makes them too powerful to be used. There are other weapons that can deal with [units]. It's a game of give and take, some things overpower some other things. Can those weapons kill scatterbikes and wk's? Yes they can. Statistical likelihood and anecdotal evidence and tactics aside, they are perfectly able to. If you want to include stats, experience, and tactics due to abilities of models, then you have to also react to those things in turn. It's a strategy game, not a "Let's all take our lascannons and lasguns and duke it out" game.

That's the other criterion for cheese, imho.

If your list-build largely negates your need for actual strategy once you've placed your models; it's a giant hunk of cheddar.

Just because you came ill prepared doesn't make your opponent's list cheddar.

I only brought lascannons and lasguns. Even though the actual statline doesn't support it, lasguns are supposed to be standard anti-infantry so if it can't kill any of your things (defined as "if you have a way to avoid certain death such as anything at all") then you need to not play that model. I only came with these two weapons, you're so waac cheese if I can't kill you with them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Traditio wrote:

BossJakadakk wrote:I'm not sure how this addresses my post. In actuality, there would be no need for a significant level of strategy if all models had the same guns, it's just who rolls better or who gets cover. You don't even need models for that.

ITT:

There is no need for actual strategy in chess, checkers, stratego, etc.!

Did you know that in chess, different pieces do different things?

 Gamgee wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
If it beats my army then it's cheese. If it benefits my army then it's fair and balanced.

This seems to be the majority of peoples view. Hence why I would never trust them to write rules or have a community rule set.

Gotta agree here. I was told that my basic infantry heavy, non-flyer having, Slaanesh daemon army was cheese by a Necron player because a squad of 20 daemonettes slogged across the battlefield (long ways) for 3 turns and managed to get the remnants (a total of 5 daemonettes) into combat with a squad of 20 Necron Warriors, win the combat (he had them stacked deep, so half couldn't even swing), and caused them to break and get wiped out by sweeping advance. He basically said assault in general was cheese because his preferred army build wasn't that good at it.

Of course, when his Necrons beat my marines regularly thanks to Bubba Hotep's lightning (this was 6th edition), I did the same thing

ClassicCarraway wrote:Gotta agree here. I was told that my basic infantry heavy, non-flyer having, Slaanesh daemon army was cheese by a Necron player because a squad of 20 daemonettes slogged across the battlefield (long ways) for 3 turns and managed to get the remnants (a total of 5 daemonettes) into combat with a squad of 20 Necron Warriors, win the combat (he had them stacked deep, so half couldn't even swing), and caused them to break and get wiped out by sweeping advance. He basically said assault in general was cheese because his preferred army build wasn't that good at it.

That's not a case of cheese. That's a case of being a sore loser.

And if your point is simply to say that "cheese is relative to the individual," it's really not. "Daemonettes are OP at close quarter combat' is not a public opinion, so far as I'm aware.

 wuestenfux wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Scatterlasers. Pure cheese since day 1.

No they are not.

However, GW has broken a tabu to give each member of a troop unit a heavy weapon.

Yeah, they are. Because wound spam circumvents the need for low AP weapons AND mops up hordes and now it also murders vehicles.

Traditio wrote:
Those are the only two guns that anybody should actually have to bring. Lascannons are standard dedicated AT, and lasguns are supposed to be standard anti-infantry.

Which is funny because previously you said that C:SM were the standard by which everything must be measured, and C:SM can not take lasguns. It seems like your primary consideration in selecting your benchmark units is "something that can't kill {unit I dislike}, so I can prove that it is overpowered".

9 times out of 10 someones definition of "cheese" is just a terrible match-up or total lack of understanding of how the current game works.

Seriously, if you are bemoaning how badly your assault marines and IG combo got beat by slaneesh daemons.......that's your problem not the slaneesh player. (As an example.)

To me, cheese is something that intentionally stops me from being able to play a game before I get chance to participate.
If by taking second turn, I am left with absolutely no options of retaliating or taking part with even (or slightly diminished) chance to win, then that's not a game.

I don't mean an accidental lucky strike on my warlord, I mean a planned shut-down by the opponent that just leaves me neutered before I get to make a decision.

Martel732 wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Scatterlasers. Pure cheese since day 1.

No they are not.

However, GW has broken a tabu to give each member of a troop unit a heavy weapon.

Yeah, they are. Because wound spam circumvents the need for low AP weapons AND mops up hordes and now it also murders vehicles.

well, but if you could only have one of em per squad it wouldnt be OP. because the rest of em would only have a puny 12" range and str4. its the low point cost and ability to spam MSU all equipped with a long range, all purpose weapon combined with low point cost, good defence and superior mobility which makes it OP.


list tailoring aside, every unit in this game has a point cost. it has a potential damage output and the enemy has to commit a certain effort to kill/destroy said unit.
there are alot of variables depending on the context of the game going into said statement (like above mentioned mobility)... nontheless if the damage output and effort to kill it far outweights the point cost it is OP.

granted this is highly subjective... but really just as an example... is a wraithknight just worth 300 points?

Martel732 wrote:
There so many things that can't be killed by the terrible lascannon now. You hardly kill a Riptide with 40 lascannons.

If you're shooting 40 lascannons at a Riptide, the Tau player wins whether you kill it or not.

I once tied up an entire Canoptek Harvest for half a game with one Riptide, because the Necron player was convinced that tying up more stuff in melee with it would surely kill it somehow. This player already had it completely tied up, with a blob of scarabs and a spider that kept making more of them, but just had to kill the thing instead of playing to the objectives (and running roughshod over everything else I had with the formation's wraiths).

Being fixated on whether or not you can kill something, with how many of whatever weapon, may be hazardous to your winning streak. And your opponent's enjoyment, since it took me awhile to convince this Necron player that this game was the Necrons' to lose, and that they lost it by becoming fixated on how "unfair" my unkillable Riptide was.

tl;dr cry moar, it makes you an easier target

Cheese I can deal with... but being a douche about it makes me rather cross. Someone who I (for some reason) frequently play against insists that taking Belakor, a FMC Nurgle Daemon Prince, Nurgle Soul Grinder and 2x minimum units of Nurglings at 1000 points is not cheesy against an army with zero Skyfire, few psychic dice and only a few ranged weapons >S4. When they can fly around, psychic shriek everything, get hit only on 6s with a 2+ save, there isn't much one can do. It's just not fun. When the opponent is super competitive and you're trying to have a casual game, it just ends up being a waste of time.

Must find new friends.

 Jewelfox wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
There so many things that can't be killed by the terrible lascannon now. You hardly kill a Riptide with 40 lascannons.

If you're shooting 40 lascannons at a Riptide, the Tau player wins whether you kill it or not.

I once tied up an entire Canoptek Harvest for half a game with one Riptide, because the Necron player was convinced that tying up more stuff in melee with it would surely kill it somehow. This player already had it completely tied up, with a blob of scarabs and a spider that kept making more of them, but just had to kill the thing instead of playing to the objectives (and running roughshod over everything else I had with the formation's wraiths).

Being fixated on whether or not you can kill something, with how many of whatever weapon, may be hazardous to your winning streak. And your opponent's enjoyment, since it took me awhile to convince this Necron player that this game was the Necrons' to lose, and that they lost it by becoming fixated on how "unfair" my unkillable Riptide was.

tl;dr cry moar, it makes you an easier target

BA are already a trivial target. What I do doesn't matter at all at this point. Riptides are very unfair. If they didn't have mass firepower, I would be happy to ignore them.

Cheese to me has always been essentially exploiting rules that exist for the sake of a game/variety, but don't match the background. E.g. Wraithknight or Riptide spam (they are supposed to be rare) up through outright "killer combos" that are obviously not how things are intended (e.g. most Deathstars), including things like knowingly exploiting a flaw of your opponent's list e.g. bringing a horde of flyers when you know they have no anti-air.

Basically anything that intentionally aims to reduce your opponent's fun during the game.

However note that I do strongly adhere to the "spirit of the game" so in effect cheesy (and beardy) means "Not playing in the spirit of the game".