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The backslide are a result to few factors.

There are some that backed and feel they were deceived. Comments section have been a lot of back and forth from positive to negative to positive to negative. There are also people who have backed at a $1 to give their opinions based on their dealings with Prodos.

There is some apprehension with the rules due to plagiarism. Others that have played the PnP says it does play differently than Rum and Bones so it isn't a copy (I haven't played either so can't comment, but that is what has been in the comments section).

The other thing are backers who just don't want anything to do with the drama and pulled out.

Just a lot of negativity and trollspam once the Prodos drama started. Kinda expected it to be worse than that. Looks like it's leveling off now.

I'm hopeful that since they are doing everything in house more or less they will be able to knock this out out quick and on time if not early, along with finishing AvP in the meantime, and hopefully that will go toward rebuilding their rep.

Yeah, it was the big reveal that Archon is the production company connected to Prodos, and the several things that went along with that... still surprising to me that people were OK pledging on an unknown and that's what spooked them, though!

Archon is even showing containers with thousands of production models already being made. Obviously the rules matter too, but they've put up new print and play ones for folks to check out. Hopefully the last week will turn positive again, but they said they budgeted for needing 1000 backers and have over 1700, so even if it just muddled on as it has been they should be able to produce a great product (and hopefully establish that they're worth backing in the future).

 Alpharius wrote:

Spoiler:

Any additional insight in the comments section - or elsewhere - as to what's causing the backslide?

Basically, a lot of backers got mad over a few things:
1. Prodos is the company behind the Archon shell, and this was deliberately concealed from the backers
2. That they blatantly plagarized the rules.
3. Prodos started attacking disgruntled and skeptical backers.

The notion of business ethics is probably the biggest one, as Prodos is asking for people's trust, despite a number of actions that are deceitful and corner-cutting.

So no further big reveals, but it's obviously taken something of a toll when excited EBs turn into disgruntled $1 backers.

Quite frankly, I'm surprised the impact has been as small as it has. In a typical trust-based transaction, I'd have assumed everyone to run away screaming. It will be very interesting to see how this one plays out. Hopefully, it continues to bleed, so we don't have Defiance coming back.

I think the bleeding has stopped. Giving away stretch goals has fixed it.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

3. Prodos started attacking disgruntled and skeptical backers.

They are doing this?

In the KS comments section?

Yeah. It's nothing that we haven't seen from Palladium or Dream Pod 9. Calling people trolls and such.

So a Prodos account is trolling backers in the LOAD Kickstarter 'run' by Archon?

 Alpharius wrote:
So a Prodos account is trolling backers in the LOAD Kickstarter 'run' by Archon?

No, it was the Creator 'Load Board Game' account that was doing it. At least when I saw it. Wording was typical Jarek though there is no way to know if it was actually him.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
1. Prodos is the company behind the Archon shell, and this was deliberately concealed from the backers

Technically Archon is a subsidiary of Prodos, not a shell company. It would be considered a shell company if Archon was newly created and existed mostly for the purpose being a front. They seem similar but there are slight differences between a shell and subsidiary that makes a difference.

 Alpharius wrote:
They are doing this?

In the KS comments section?

For the most part no, there was some disagreements and corrections. There was some back and forth, but the main thing that was considered an attack was the following (I'm not aware of any other responses where they did like this):

John, You are paid Troll, you say you backed at Epic level but you actually backed for $1. This is your first backed project. What happened? Your guys ran out of accounts to bash with and needed to create new ones?

They shouldn't of responded and continued to ignore it. However given the back slide and some of the comments, it isn't unexpected. A normal Kickstarter creator who wasn't a company entity would have responded similarly, not that it is an excuse. It was over the top in my opinion, but there is also a large negative backlash that is also over the top.

LoadBoardGame is the shell company. It was expressly created by Prodos for the purpose of concealing Prodos' identity. I have seen the LoadBoardGame sock puppet post on BGG.

Also, I'm not the "John" in the comments - I haven't backed LOAD at all, not even a buck.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
LoadBoardGame is the shell company. It was expressly created by Prodos for the purpose of concealing Prodos' identity. I have seen the LoadBoardGame sock puppet post on BGG.

Archon was not just created, it isn't a new company. It is even brought up multiple times over the years within the AvP thread. They are an arm of Prodos yes, but that is because Prodos has controlling stock making them a subsidiary. It has been around for at least 2 1/2 years given the financial records that were referenced. If people want to think that is a shell then I obviously can't stop them although being a shell and subsidiary are different things, the difference is slight but there is a difference. It would be like saying Maybelline and L'Oreal are shells for Nestle or that ABC, ESPN, Lucasfilm are shells for Disney.




The video was created using the "updated rules" from what I understand. Those that are familiar with Rums and Bones 1st Edition, is this the exact same thing or just a similar thing because of the MOBA play style?

 RiTides wrote:
Archon is even showing containers with thousands of production models already being made.

They did that with AVP iirc... and then supposedly trashed those minis. Fast forward over a year later and some backers (albeit a shrinking number) are still waiting for those same (redesigned supposedly) minis. I'd post a link but they took down all the evidence along with the KS campaign page. They've also showed tons of boxes waiting to be shipped out as proof of their efforts to meet a looming backer self set shipping deadline.. only to find out weeks later that (at least on dakka) no one got anything and that those hundreds of boxes went to retail instead. Pics or it didn't happen sadly isn't enough proof for a company like Prodos.

 Dark Severance wrote:


The video was created using the "updated rules" from what I understand. Those that are familiar with Rums and Bones 1st Edition, is this the exact same thing or just a similar thing because of the MOBA play style?

Still significant similarities, including, but not limited to:

- Hero "abilities" layout remains the exact same.
- Creep spawning remains the exact same.
- Hero Movement remains the exact same.
- Hero Revival remains the exact same.

Differences include:
- Forest deck to simulate creep camps.
- Use of pooled mana

Sorta the same;
- Towers; 1 Cannon in R&B 1.0; 3 towers in LOAD
- Item vs Tide Decks

 cincydooley wrote:
Still significant similarities, including, but not limited to:

Thank you! Given the similarities with the addition of the differences, does it actually play or seem to play differently? Layout and rules appear same but what about interaction between abilities and game play, would you say they play the same or they play differently?

 Dark Severance wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
Still significant similarities, including, but not limited to:

Thank you! Given the similarities with the addition of the differences, does it actually play or seem to play differently? Layout and rules appear same but what about interaction between abilities and game play, would you say they play the same or they play differently?

I think the forest deck adds a little bit of variation and thematically it makes sense. I think it's similar to the Kraken/Sea Monsters in R&B V1 in some ways, but adds another method to develop an economic engine in the game.

The Mana Pool is a big difference in the game in my eyes, and, unless I'm really confused, really limits what can be done in a turn (only 8 mana per turn?) As much as the Forest cards make sense to me thematically, a shared mana pool for all heroes makes very little sense to me.

Once Rum & Bones Second Tide comes out and the R&B1 ruleset is 'retired,' the games will actually play fairly differently, as LOAD seems to be taking most of its ruleset from R&B1. Second Tide was pretty extensively tested based on feedback from the R&B 1 playtest groups, and gameplay improvements like the move to alternating activation were made. I think that's going to be a big problem for load, as the first player is going to be able to do a lot of damage to the 2nd player before the 2nd player is even afforded the opportunity to act. But time will tell.

From a rule development and editing standpoint, there are a lot of problems (IMO) with the rulebook. There are too few gameplay examples, there are number of clarifications that need to be made, and there are simple grammar issues spread throughout.

I should say that the game is going to be crap, but I think the rules will be fine because they're so heavily taken from R&B 1 (and that's one of my favorite games that I've worked on or played) and the minis should be good should they actually deliver them (Prodos, their shipping problems aside, are incredibly competent at making miniatures--or so I hear; I've still not received any of my AVP).

If you can get past the ethical quandaries there, then I'm sure you'll be okay; I think a large part of the campaign stall is because too many people are unwilling to overlook the plagiarism.

Hi there, LOAD vs RnB in a nutshell

When talking about similarities in MOBA games like DOTA and LOL list is quite long, for those looking from the outside, they might even look the same. But when comparing LOAD and R&B, differences are much more prominent. Sure, there are some similarities also, both games are made to transfer MOBA feel into board game, therefore, both borrowed some similarities from popular genre. Those similarities are:
They both use creeps.
Killing creeps and heroes earns gold.
Creeps and heroes spawn on spawn points
Heroes are put into 5 categories.
Heroes have actions.
Heroes have skills.

But what is not similar is much more interesting:

LOAD has 5 heroes per team in play / R&B has 3.
LOAD has Tournament mode and supports up to 6 players. / R&B does not.
LOAD Heroes can be recruited for any faction / R&B has heroes locked to factions.
LOAD utilizes Mana as resource for performing skills / R&B uses gold for this.
LOAD Heroes use gold to purchase items and additional Lane creeps / R&B does not have these options.
LOAD Heroes can equip items from 8 different categories / R&B does not have items.
LOAD Heroes have dedicated move action / R&B does not.
LOAD Heroes have Signature Weapon + Item slot + 3 Skills / R&B heroes have 3 skills.
LOAD forbids placing more than 1 Hero on same field to encourage tactics / R&B allows stacking heroes.
LOAD game board follows MOBA battlefields closely (3 towers and 3 spawn points per team with forest between lanes)/ R&B have 1 Gun per team and no forest.
LOAD has forest creeps that attack heroes who venture into forest / R&B does not have forest.
LOAD Towers attack only enemies in their vicinity / R&B gun can target any field.
LOAD has 4 types of Lane creeps who provide deep tactical possibilities / R&B has 2.

There are a lot more differences. If you want to track them, feel free to check LOAD rulebook: http://loadboardgame.com/LOAD-Rulebook-WIP.pdf

 Dark Severance wrote:
It has been around for at least 2 1/2 years given the financial records that were referenced.

AvP backers have been waiting longer than 2.5 years for their product. For all we know, Archon was created so that Prodos could move its assets to the company, leaving obligations with the parent company.

Happened before with Up Front.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CptJake wrote:
No, it was the Creator 'Load Board Game' account that was doing it. At least when I saw it. Wording was typical Jarek though there is no way to know if it was actually him.

Jarek posted from his own account to answer a few questions on BGG about LOAD. So he's obviously involved in the LOAD KS.

A good shell company is made years in advance to be useful, coming up with one at the last moment and trying to conceal funds in it is a bad idea and easily found by a good accountant.

 Alpharius wrote:
They are doing this? In the KS comments section?

It's buried in the BGG threads, but the KS creator called a John a "troll". John then actually *did* troll the KS comments, creating his own AM morning show. His comments were eventually deleted, although someone copies them into said BGG thread.

 Warzone Resurrection wrote:

LOAD has Tournament mode and supports up to 6 players. / R&B does not.

Yes, Rum and Bones does have tournament rules. Rum and Bones also supports multiplayer.

LOAD Heroes can be recruited for any faction / R&B has heroes locked to factions.

Rum and Bones has mercenary heroes that can work for anyone.

LOAD Heroes have dedicated move action / R&B does not.

Yes, it does.

Listen, I'm not going to nitpick; I only responded because I was asked. Just, please, don't insult the intelligence of everyone here and pretend the plagiarism didn't happen.

Apparently the creators of LOAD forgot to remove a DOTA name from one of the cards: https://boardgamegeek.com/image/3035534/xchikyx

Look at the Long Reach power on the bottom of the card.

Ouch!

That may explain...things here, as this is such a strange campaign:

Archon/Prodos threatens Legal Action against BGG

Quote from Jarek:
" BBG by allowing such actions that also affect our business in general, in fact Archon and Prodos - on this matter we will be searching legal advice as well. Hate, in any form, as presented on this forum in form of accusations without knowing the facts is weak if not illegal."

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1582814/avp-post-ex-employe...

I swear, you can't make this stuff up.

I think the 1st Amendment will prevail, though. If BGG and/or the author of the comments leading up to Jarek's response are in California, they can probably make good use of our anti-SLAPP laws to enjoin Archon/Prodos/Jarek from doing anything stupider than what they're already doing.

The truth really is stranger than fiction...

Great, now Prodos/Archon will sue BGG, BGG will counter sue and then Prodos will have reason to say that they can no longer fulfill the KS orders .

Blimey, the continued haemorrhage of backers and funds can't be sustained at this rate. And I made the mistake of looking through the Kickstarter comments. Toxic is not the word. From the quick scan I had, there's a subset of moronic backers that seem to be haranguing, calling everyone trolls and shouting down anyone who asks any sort of remotely negative question, even innocent enquirers.

Prodos Archon are their usual delightful selves.

What a godawful mess.

They lost backers for 7 straight days so far.

 Theophony wrote:
Great, now Prodos/Archon will sue BGG, BGG will counter sue and then Prodos will have reason to say that they can no longer fulfill the KS orders .

Thanks for your comment, however it's worth pointing-out that "getting a legal advice about doxing" is not taking any legal actions ( or "sue" as you enclosed). Thanks.

As for Archon financials, I can assure you that Archon as established company is making enough profit to protect it's rights (if any) in legal actions, if needed.

 Warzone Resurrection wrote:

 Theophony wrote:
Great, now Prodos/Archon will sue BGG, BGG will counter sue and then Prodos will have reason to say that they can no longer fulfill the KS orders .

Thanks for your comment, however it's worth pointing-out that "getting a legal advice about doxing" is not taking any legal actions ( or "sue" as you enclosed). Thanks.

As for Archon financials, I can assure you that Archon as established company is making enough profit to protect it's rights (if any) in legal actions, if needed.

But not enough to have shipped out all the outstanding AVP kickstarter orders in a timely fashion along with the retail shipments last year? I suspect that you've lost more money and hair by dragging the avp kickstarter reward fulfillment out so long than if you had just gotten a small buisness loan with the corresponding interest and shipped them out when you first promised alongside the retail copies. It might have seemed like the better decision for the short term but I suspect the long term effects on your company's future profits and reputation have far outweighed those initial cash flow benefits.