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I Luckilybmissed out on the KS due to funds at the time, but I got a copy from MM at 60% off due to the box being dinged, no internal problems. They still had 5 copies at 50% off on the shelf last week (same ones sitting for over a month now). MM has also gotten restocked on the main box at least once that I've seen, so them prioritizing shipping does not float with me.
I understand your points RITides, and I respect them. The only issue I have is that they are not taking care of their customers. If Necros had a customer missing some black water gulch product I don't think he would hide behind his other games and say that they are a seperate company. I also am not saying you guys are shills or just holding the game industry line, but you all have to tread the waters a little differently since you each work in the industry and don't want to create a bad rep for yourself by throwing another company under the bus. If you feel like backing and can believe the risk is minimal than do so its your money. We have had other companies and individuals that were not shouted down enough and keep creeping back up (Tony Reidy) and I think Prodos is worse than him by a mile.
LOL, Theo your mind is an amazing place, never change.-camkierhi 9/19/13
I cant believe theo is right.. damn. -comradepanda 9/26/13
None of the strange ideas we had about you involved your sexual orientation..........-Monkeytroll 12/10/13
I'd put you on ignore for that comment, if I could...Alpharius 2/11/14
I agree with Rtides, Necros and Dark Severance in that there is less risk for this KS than AvP. I suspect the only way they don't deliver is if the plagiarism and IP theft of characters comes back and bites them in the ass.
I do think you are at risk of a boring/mediocre game, and I am one of those types who refuses to reward poor behavior and lack of integrity by doing business with this type of company.
But I do believe the backers will end up with their games from this, probably before AvP backers get everything they've paid for in at least some cases.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/06 23:32:11
Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings.
Whether it is less risky than AvP remains to be seen, because Prodos has not yet delivered on AvP, despite the various things they many have touched for others.
They refuse to address basic business ethics, and that is a major issue when one is expected to blindly trust them to fulfill down the line, especially after they have shown to break that trust.
I simply don't believe that Prodos deserves my support until they address their outstanding issues (i.e. AvP).
Also, the game itself doesn't look that good.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/06 23:59:47
After I got burned on the drake KS I stopped backing risky KS's like this one. If it ever hits retail then its something i'd consider but why front the money?
CptJake wrote: I agree with Rtides, Necros and Dark Severance in that there is less risk for this KS than AvP. I suspect the only way they don't deliver is if the plagiarism and IP theft of characters comes back and bites them in the ass.
I do think you are at risk of a boring/mediocre game, and I am one of those types who refuses to reward poor behavior and lack of integrity by doing business with this type of company.
I honestly don't care about the game itself, I know I am probably a minority, some will say why make a game then. I am more interested in the technology behind UniCast. To me it is considered more of a R&D expenditure than I'm buying a game. The miniatures do look good, not sure what I'd use them for yet.
With metal vs resin vs plastics, the costs, the pros and cons with those methods are fairly well known. They do show some impressive casting ability with UniCast, which does have some minor issues. It needs to be put through the fire though, so I want to see how it does on a mass (or larger) production level. I more or less want the tech to succeed or at least be pushed to the limits so that the flaws can be properly identified.
If it was my company, Prodos would be the front-end face. That means they need to fix their issues, swallow the pill and costs and ship out AvP. Any pledge managers with issues, then email those customers. If no response make a post with their backer name and an method of contact both email and another route (PM through a message board). Resolve those issues. Move LOAD to a Prodos title. Make Archon a manufacturer, maintain that relationship but otherwise it is dealt with the on the back-end. People would still contact Prodos for the information and they essentially are outsourcing to Archon.
Meanwhile there are other people working on trying to reverse-engineer what they have done. That means they need to put on their best dancing shoes, get their ducks in a row otherwise they can not maintain an edge. There is hope to repair what was lost, but this is literally the test of fire.
I understand your points RITides, and I respect them. The only issue I have is that they are not taking care of their customers. If Necros had a customer missing some black water gulch product I don't think he would hide behind his other games and say that they are a seperate company. I also am not saying you guys are shills or just holding the game industry line, but you all have to tread the waters a little differently since you each work in the industry and don't want to create a bad rep for yourself by throwing another company under the bus.
I'm in the industry and I wouldn't back this Kickstarter if one of the stretch goals was the cure for cancer.
Dark Severance wrote: Is CMoN still responsible and thus shouldn't be supported anymore, is the person who was terminated responsible, it was a mistake but CMoN owned up and corrected it so it is a start... how does a front-end consumer really know that person blamed was terminated?
Yes, I think CMON would still be (justifiably) responsible. And did LOAD really "own up" to it?
"After we received information about LOAD rulebook having at some parts similar wording to R&B, we took it down and sent it for technical rewrite. Gameplay was not changed, game play is based on MOBA games and we are proud at our own version of it."
That really doesn't seem like a mea cupla, "owning up" to me. In fact, it really isn't at all. Similar /= Word for Word plagiarism. That fact doesn't give me a ton of positive juju about the game actually having been tested much, if at all. Hopefully ND, since they're distributing in the US, can use their experience and wealth of testers to improve upon that so those that do stick with it have a game that isn't poorly balanced.
Regardless, the plagiarism is, as I said, the major troublesome part to me. And that's as someone that does not have his full AVP pledge. I was backing prior to finding out about it.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/06/07 04:33:12
Update 22: "After KS campaign is over, we will make a forum with access to backers only, we will also have a section of it dedicated to those who want to help playtest and tweak a gameplay in order to make it better. We will not change the game after every idea you have, but we will check and recheck everything and make changes that prove to be valid."
I also remember them saying the pages are ready to print, and it's just a matter of putting in the rules in various different languages. I don't know how they're printing the cards, but iirc, Jarek said that the rules rewrite wouldn't affect production.
I asked them who the designer is and why their playtesting groups didn't catch the similarity to R&B. No answer.
cincydooley wrote: Yes, I think CMON would still be (justifiably) responsible. And did LOAD really "own up" to it?
That really doesn't seem like a mea cupla, "owning up" to me. In fact, it really isn't at all. Similar /= Word for Word plagiarism. That fact doesn't give me a ton of positive juju about the game actually having been tested much, if at all. Hopefully ND, since they're distributing in the US, can use their experience and wealth of testers to improve upon that so those that do stick with it have a game that isn't poorly balanced.
Yes they did own up and say plagiarism, it was blamed on the outsourced person who was working on the rules. Some people will believe that and others will call it a lie. I edited a previous post because I was going off the other post but once I found the source, I edited my post because they said there was "plagiarism", not similar wording. That was why I asked my initial question as I did, because I was curious on how it would be viewed if it wasn't Prodos.
Thanks for the great discussion guys - and I think you're right on point, Theophony. Just wanted to comment on this:
Malkaven wrote: After I got burned on the drake KS I stopped backing risky KS's like this one. If it ever hits retail then its something i'd consider but why front the money?
I posted about this previously, but it's a different kind of risk here. Unlike with Drake, Torn Armor, Project Elite, or quite a few other "first time creator" failed projects, the risk here is not that the mini sculpts or production casts will turn out terrible - they've shown all these. Like Dark Severance, that's what I'm mostly interested in - it could really fill a huge gap in the industry, between hand cast resin miniatures (awesome but expensive and only usable at low volumes) and injection molding (only cost effective at really high volumes, with most companies resorting to PVC to keep costs down, but sacrificing quality).
I had really high hopes for Trollforged's attempt at filling this gap, but unfortunately they have all the business they can handle (still finishing their own campaign, too - but quite close!). Despite being friends with Ed, I have found it's nearly impossible to get into their queue.
So, for me Archon and Prodos being able to fund this game and continue making models is helping fill that gap, and could be great for everyone. It's also a chicken and egg thing, in that just practically speaking, funding this campaign likely helps current AvP folks, who they've directly said they are only shipping to as new orders are placed because funds are low. I'm sure they don't plan to use these funds for AvP finishing fulfillment directly, but it is bound to help!
I really respect cincydooley's view and other's like it, just wanted to share mine based on what I see Archon doing and hopefully continuing to do in the future. If they fail to follow through on this project and fulfilling AvP, I can't imagine there will be any grace left for them, but I'm willing to give them this chance because they are both so far along on production of the models here, and with the hope that they can make good on their obligations as they have been plugging away at steadily (quite unlike Defiance, who was mentioned). In general, I think they just have bad PR - but the motivation to fulfill this well is going to be really high, as a chance to get back in good standing with the community. Here's hoping they can do it!
RiTides wrote: I really respect cincydooley's view and other's like it, just wanted to share mine based on what I see Archon doing and hopefully continuing to do in the future. If they fail to follow through on this project and fulfilling AvP, I can't imagine there will be any grace left for them, but I'm willing to give them this chance because they are both so far along on production of the models here, and with the hope that they can make good on their obligations as they have been plugging away at steadily (quite unlike Defiance, who was mentioned). In general, I think they just have bad PR - but the motivation to fulfill this well is going to be really high, as a chance to get back in good standing with the community. Here's hoping they can do it!
I think they had an opportunity to have their second chance (not including the umpteen AvP chances) with this Kickstarter, but then blew it regardless. The fulfillment isn't their second chance, even on this Kickstarter alone it'd be their 4th or 5th. 1. Starting a kickstarter pretending to be someone else - blown. 2. Plagiarising the rules from a different game - blown. 3. Weird announcements, bordering on mis-selling, about protection that doesn't exist as far as I know and postage laws that sound like made up nonsense - blown.
And that's not including the generally bad, or non existent, attempts at PR and fixing the issues or the weird incestuous relationship to other Kickstarters that have been handled incredibly poorly like the numerous Demigods ones.
The miniatures look fine but the game looks hobbled together from other people's properties and seems unplaytested,
And that doesn't even go into the broader questions of why employees seem to be switching companies and so does ownership of things like Unicast. There is a not very good reason that comes flying to mind, as I'm sure it does to anyone who knows anything about business.
I think categorising fulfillment of this as their 'second' chance is... generous
Yeah, I think they already ruined their second chance when they started this campaign with hiding their identity. Actively misleading people is not a good way to earn back trust.
TheWaspinator wrote: Yeah, I think they already ruined their second chance when they started this campaign with hiding their identity.
I think people need to understand that Prodos / Archon will owe backers nothing upon completion.
The KS is not between backer and Prodos / Archon. It is between backer and "LoadBoardGame", a LLC with no assets, and almost certainly "judgement proof" even if we pierce the corporate veil. US / Polish Consumer Protection Law would be like squeezing blood from a stone.
Quite frankly, it is a scam, and you would be an idiot for backing it.
The only way you would consider it is if LoadBoardGame reveals their contract with Prodos / Archon, and it clearly states that Prodos / Archon assumes all risks, liabilities and obligations incurred by LoadBoardGame. And I haven't seen that.
What is almost certainly the case is that Prodos / Archon is completely insulated from and indemnified by LoadBoardGame, so if LoardBoardGame is sued by the US / State AG, backers get nothing.
And even then, because LoadBoardGame is a friend of Prodos / Archon, it's not like he's going to sue them to have someone enforce it.
Now, maybe, Prodos / Archon will deliver on behalf of LoadBoardGame. That's possible. Some AvP backers got some of their stuff. But it's just as likely that this happens:
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/06/07 17:11:57
Just noting the word "second" isn't anywhere in that post, Artemis
These are all really valid points, I just find a lot of value in Prodos/Archon being able to have enough funding to keep making awesome things, and hopefully take care of current customers, too.
Filling that gap between resin and injection molded plastic is hard to do - Trollforged is still producing like crazy for Raging Heroes, but for everyone else there really isn't an option. For my own purchases, I tend to bite the bullet and go for resin, or metal for things like the mini I got from you recently, Artemis!
But I would love to see Archon be able to continue to grow into the role of filling that gap. There are drawbacks, but with the lack of alternatives I think you'd see many more PVC projects if Archon disappeared... and the results from that is just not to my liking, personally. I want to see more and more companies innovate away from that medium, not be forced to embrace it.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/06/07 23:06:34
RiTides wrote: Just noting the word "second" isn't anywhere in that post, Artemis
These are all really valid points, I just find a lot of value in Prodos/Archon being able to have enough funding to keep making awesome things, and hopefully take care of current customers, too.
Filling that gap between resin and injection molded plastic is hard to do - Trollforged is still producing like crazy for Raging Heroes, but for everyone else there really isn't an option. For my own purchases, I tend to bite the bullet and go for resin, or metal for things like the mini I got from you recently, Artemis!
But I would love to see Archon be able to continue to grow into the role of filling that gap. There are drawbacks, but with the lack of alternatives I think you'd see many more PVC projects if Archon disappeared... and the results from that is just not to my liking, personally. I want to see more and more companies innovate away from that medium, not be forced to embrace it.
*laugh* You're right, sorry I just read it as second chance.
As for the tech, yeah it's interesting, but in a few months time it'll be duplicated, then again and again. Trollforged is just a spincast resin/plastic hybrid, they exist in numerous places now, and kind of did when Trollforged came out even (I haven't seen anything in recent years but it also used to have massive shrinking problems).
Unicast just kinda looks like injection moulded resin/plastic hybrid. The prices don't seem too far off spincast versions but with the advantage of PVC moulding where you can pull 1 piece minis out because they're bendy (The 1 piece moulding is mostly good mini design btw rather than some magical function of the tech). It's interesting for sure but it's not worldbreaking or anything and it'll be replicated soon if it hasn't been already.
Yeah, the fact that there's that "LoadBoardGame" company creating a potential layer of legal shielding to make lawsuits have more difficulty reaching the actual company is not reassuring. It's still possible that this project is not a scam, but there's enough shady stuff going on that I would rather back a Kickstarter by an unknown entity than one by these guys. Which hilariously is probably why they tried to hide their identities.
JohnHwangDD wrote: The KS is not between backer and Prodos / Archon. It is between backer and "LoadBoardGame", a LLC with no assets, and almost certainly "judgement proof" even if we pierce the corporate veil.
Where is the information that there is a LoadBoardGame LLC? I have been trying to go through the various BBG threads and comments to find a source or reference but haven't found anything so far.
No matter what is said by Prodos, LoadBoardGame is the "creator" on the KS contract, and they are the entity you would have to pursue for redress / fulfillment. If they subsequently hire Prodos, that doesn't change the contract. If Prodos / Archon claim that they will fulfill the KS, it's not really enforcible. Even if it were, Prodos is presumed judgement proof, based on how they fail to fulfill AvP.
No matter what is said by Prodos, LoadBoardGame is the "creator" on the KS contract, and they are the entity you would have to pursue for redress / fulfillment. If they subsequently hire Prodos, that doesn't change the contract. If Prodos / Archon claim that they will fulfill the KS, it's not really enforcible. Even if it were, Prodos is presumed judgement proof, based on how they fail to fulfill AvP.
Then there is not an LoadBoardGame LLC? At least there was no mention of one there that I could find. Yes the Kickstarter account that created the Kickstarter is connected and shows the creator as Mihajilo Vlaskovic. But that is the same thing as when Mantic Games creates a KS but the account is Joe Neet and CMoN KS are created by David Doust. Although I'm fairly certain, as with any KS, there is enough branding and information that if you did have to go to court it ties to Archon. Just like if Dungeon Saga somehow had an issue, people can tie it to Mantic Games to do something.
Is he an Officer of Prodos, authorized to legally represent and bind Prodos?
And if he's not a LLC, all that means is that we get to go after him personally if things go wrong. So he could lose his personal savings accounts, his house, etc.
JohnHwangDD wrote: Is he an Officer of Prodos, authorized to legally represent and bind Prodos?
And if he's not a LLC, all that means is that we get to go after him personally if things go wrong. So he could lose his personal savings accounts, his house, etc.
I have no idea if he is or not. However legal matters in that sort of thing isn't as cut and dry as that. I guess hypothetically Archon could state that Mihajilo Vlaskovic isn't part of Archon and that they had nothing to do with it. In current legal matters that would mean people could go after him but it isn't that simple. This isn't just for Archon, this is for any Kickstarter. Kickstarter doesn't verify your business name, type, it just wants a bank account and verifies the creator. Everything is literally branded as Archon, so even if they try do deny a relationship to Mihajilo, Archon can still be held responsible. Unless Jarek suddenly isn't considered part of Archon/Prodos anymore, meaning his statements are also null and void and the other documents and evidence (outside of KS) that links them to it. However even if Jarek himself was no longer associated afterwards, at the time of his posts he was associated thus still maintains a responsible link to Archon.
I'm not saying that legally going after any company that runs a Kickstarter isn't a hassle. It is something that is shared with all Kickstarter creators. I was just wanting to verify there wasn't another LLC, which is still possible if they did a DBA. That wouldn't be unheard of to register and create multiple DBAs from one LLC but they all tie to the main LLC. Keep in mind I'm not a lawyer, this is just from my own experiences with my own businesses. I also understand that the laws will vary from country and state as well.
Dark Severance wrote: Yes the Kickstarter account that created the Kickstarter is connected and shows the creator as Mihajilo Vlaskovic. But that is the same thing as when Mantic Games creates a KS but the account is Joe Neet and CMoN KS are created by David Doust.
Not 'quite' the same, a simple google of Joe or Dave will find that they are clearly and openly associated with their respective companies and are active employees/directors.
A google search of Mihalijo Vlaskovic, prior to this kickstarter, would come up with no such links to the actual company behind the Kickstarter his name is on.
JohnHwangDD wrote: Is he an Officer of Prodos, authorized to legally represent and bind Prodos?
And if he's not a LLC, all that means is that we get to go after him personally if things go wrong. So he could lose his personal savings accounts, his house, etc.
I have no idea if he is or not. However legal matters in that sort of thing isn't as cut and dry as that. I guess hypothetically Archon could state that Mihajilo Vlaskovic isn't part of Archon and that they had nothing to do with it.
In current legal matters that would mean people could go after him but it isn't that simple. This isn't just for Archon, this is for any Kickstarter. Kickstarter doesn't verify your business name, type, it just wants a bank account and verifies the creator. Everything is literally branded as Archon, so even if they try do deny a relationship to Mihajilo, Archon can still be held responsible.
Unless Jarek suddenly isn't considered part of Archon/Prodos anymore, meaning his statements are also null and void and the other documents and evidence (outside of KS) that links them to it. However even if Jarek himself was no longer associated afterwards, at the time of his posts he was associated thus still maintains a responsible link to Archon.
I'm not saying that legally going after any company that runs a Kickstarter isn't a hassle. It is something that is shared with all Kickstarter creators. I was just wanting to verify there wasn't another LLC, which is still possible if they did a DBA. That wouldn't be unheard of to register and create multiple DBAs from one LLC but they all tie to the main LLC. Keep in mind I'm not a lawyer, this is just from my own experiences with my own businesses. I also understand that the laws will vary from country and state as well.
And you don't see the inherent problem with that? Prodos has already distanced itself from Archon. Even though we know there is huge overlap. If TSHTF, Archon isn't legally obligated by what he does or says.
And it is that simple. In the case of CMoN, David is an officer of the company. In the case of DreamForge, Mark is an Officer. That makes a very big difference when these Officers act on behalf of the company, or they incorporate on behalf of themselves. They are legally synonymous of those companies. Mihaj is synynomous with LoadBoardGame, but that doesn't make him Archon, which is a subsidiary of Prodos. If Mihaj isn't a an Officer of either of them, legally, it is much harder to make any of this stick. And, as Prodos was very clear, Archon could fold and not impact Prodos. And vice versa. Go ahead, go after Archon, Prodos will simply shift assets.
Where has Jarek posted as himself in this campaign? Has that happened? Or is all through his anonymizer?
The problem is that the legal relationship is complex and it is not clear to what extent anyone besides Mihaj is obliged to deliver.
"Archon hired CritOnHitGames to be the spokesperson/PR for the game and conceal the presence of Prodos. The leader of this company is Mihajlo Vlaskovic. Mr. Vlaskovic is the Logistics Manager for Demigods Rising, and the President of Kicktotal Games, the company behind Demigods Evolution. Thus, Demigods is not directly related to LOAD." https://www.reddit.com/r/boardgames/comments/4kzgms/shady_ks_load/
Transferring money on KS is a con man's dream. Even with the high profile Conan boardgame, Days of Wonder was the entity receiving the funds, not Monolith. With DUST KS, Battefront (?) received from KS and was supposed to transfer it to Paolo Parente (or something). With the Asylum Bicycle card KS, the American entity who received KS funds, never transferred it to the Italian (?) artist who was actually behind the project.
The Dust/BF kerfuffle is an excellent example of what John's referring to; you had the US branch of a New Zealand company selling the products of a Chinese manufacturer. Things went to hell when it came time to get the campaign's freebies made and, reportedly, Dust reneged on their share basically saying that Paolo had no authority to approve anything during the campaign because the owner of Dust Studios was not Paolo and BF would need to pay for them all. BF might have had a legal case to pursue Dust on because Paolo certainly ACTS like an officer of the company, but international legalities would be exorbitant in cost and take eons, even with stronger and clearer-cut law regulating commerce between businesses (as Dust likely had their own counter-suits they could mount). Eventually the companies reached some sort of settlement on who would be paying for what and announced that would end their tempestuous partnership after fulfillment.
However, fast-forward to today and there's still backers that haven't received everything they paid for, and that's with companies who were not trying to play deceptive games with who was doing what; both BF and DS suck at communication and that came back to bite them both in a big way. In this case, when you have a company that is already concealing who they are, has a large amount of overlap with troubled entities and further has a murky relationship citing international laws as your protections, it does send up a large number of red flags despite how impressive the models themselves might be.
I don't understand why it has to be so convoluted. they have the miniatures production capability, the game looked set, why so much drama for so little product?
At Games Workshop, we believe that how you behave does matter. We believe this so strongly that we have written it down in the Games Workshop Book. There is a section in the book where we talk about the values we expect all staff to demonstrate in their working lives. These values are Lawyers, Guns and Money.
Grot 6 wrote: I don't understand why it has to be so convoluted. they have the miniatures production capability, the game looked set, why so much drama for so little product?
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