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MaxT wrote:
Hi MaxZ !

(gets further ahead)

It seems my post has been marked as spam. Looks like it might be more of a challenge catching up than I thought

Looking at this a bit further, the backer drop out has actually rolled that count all the way back into day 2!

Wow!

Best Kickstarter EVER!

Well at least for watchers.

Yeah,

prodos what's happening with the clear predators?

Can you answer somewhere?

When will I get them?
And all the other stuff you owe the AVP backers?

...

LOAD - Customers this is what you can expect in 5 days time.
Prodos take your money and shut down communications.
3 years later you wonder what happened???

Save your money, buy at retail.
In our experience you will get your miniatures cheaper and quicker than backers.

Panic...

When you get a minute Prodos?
I'm sure your very busy...

Panic...

Archon and Prodos are busy currently

The backer retreat continues:

It is a good thing this one is ending soon, I guess?

It is kind of hilarious to watch. There's plenty of Kickstarters that peter out, but usually not after such an explosive start.

It is one of the strangest ones that I've ever seen.

They effectively haven't added any money since the 4th day, and haven't added any new backers since sometime into the 2nd day!

As you say, for something that started out so hot, to see this is...odd.

I'm guessing the "Prodos Factor" was revealed sometime towards the end of the first week?

Archon was revealed to be the creator on the 24th.

It just shows how badly Prodos poisoned their name.

Note that they haven't dared to show up to answer a very simple question:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Ergo, they are lying. Just like they lied about who was running the campaign. Just like they lie about Polish Consumer Protection Law.

Hey, Prodos - how come Polish Consumer Protection Law doesn't apply to AvP backers? Huh? How come American Consumer Protection Law doesn't apply to AvP backers? Where are those refunds that AvP backers requested and didn't get?

I see that Prodos dropped by, but somehow missed my bolded question above...

Prodos - why should we believe you now, when you lied to all of the AvP backers?

It seems that Prodos is afraid to come here and explain how Polish law applies to the backers who have yet to give them money, but somehow doesn't apply to those who already have.

Yeah, by their own logic they should have refunded a bunch of AVP pledges for being late.

Well it's no longer a Kickstarter editors pick either, so there's that . The creator is answering questions in their comment section, I guess they are too busy for us. Then again Prodos said in the other thread that they were warned by many others in the industry not to interact with the people on DakkaDakka .

I think the game looks great, and am really looking forward to it (I've kept my pledge, splitting it with another Dakkanaut). Hopefully they'll have a positive last day or two!

While the questions asked are legitimate, honestly some of the posts come off a bit as heckling... with creators that are behind I've found that's not a very effective means of getting them to respond / rectify things, for better or worse.

Quite a few of us here are pledging (Necros, Orlando, DarkSeverance, etc) so it's not that there aren't folks supporting the campaign here... but the tenor of the thread has devolved a bit (and not saying it's unreasonable to do so - just that it has).

Again, not saying folks shouldn't post these legitimate concerns - just that it's probably not going to get a lot of creator interaction without discussion of the current game, at least while that campaign is running.

 Theophony wrote:
Well it's no longer a Kickstarter editors pick either, so there's that . The creator is answering questions in their comment section, I guess they are too busy for us. Then again Prodos said in the other thread that they were warned by many others in the industry not to interact with the people on DakkaDakka .

Oh, please provide a link to that. Could do with a good laugh...

 Theophony wrote:
Well it's no longer a Kickstarter editors pick either, so there's that

 zedmeister wrote:
Oh, please provide a link to that. Could do with a good laugh...

It is still listed as a Staff Pick, "Project We Love". I do not know what conditions are met to put the "heart symbol" as a overlay on the Kickstarter image, if that is creator controlled or just faulty css scripting on KS part (usually related to that). It shows up when you browse the categories or the staff pick section, but doesn't when on the main KS page. Although you can clearly see the purple highlighted "Project We Love" just under the image.

Yep I'm looking forward to it too. It's been an interesting campaign to say the least, but I have faith they will deliver and I'll have some great looking fantasy minis to probably hate myself for never getting around to painting, like half of my collection (more like 90%). It's a good deal for the amount of minis you get, and they do have top notch talent working for them. I feel that they gotta know they gotta make it a successful campaign and their future is riding on it. I think if they get this out in a timely manner and can get AVP sorted in the meantime it will go a long way toward improving their image in the community.

That's an interesting divide we have going here. There are those who at least part time work within the same industry (Dark Severance, RiTides, and Necros) who are maintaining a positive outlook whereas the regular joe pure consumers who generally are pessimistic. I didn't really realize that until I saw all three of you post so close together (and, no, this isn't a conspiracy theory but rather just a simple observation nor am I trying to discount your opinions based on that work).

Yeah, I noticed that, too. As Necros said, I think they'd just be crazy not to deliver here (and have shown themselves capable of doing so well for other campaigns). I also think this funding will help them deliver AvP (whether directly or indirectly). So, I think it helps everyone for them to fund about how they are, and might even be better that it just stays around there rather than having gone nuts. But I guess I'm just being practical - I understand folks who just want nothing to do with it on principle, but personally hope they deliver it (and the remainder of AvP) well and can continue to serve the industry / make cool stuff.

zedmeister wrote:

 Theophony wrote:
... Then again Prodos said in the other thread that they were warned by many others in the industry not to interact with the people on DakkaDakka .

Oh, please provide a link to that. Could do with a good laugh...

Dark Severance wrote:It is still listed as a Staff Pick, "Project We Love". I do not know what conditions are met to put the "heart symbol" as a overlay on the Kickstarter image, if that is creator controlled or just faulty css scripting on KS part (usually related to that). It shows up when you browse the categories or the staff pick section, but doesn't when on the main KS page. Although you can clearly see the purple highlighted "Project We Love" just under the image.

I've bolded the bit I'd like a link to if someone would kindly oblige...?

 RiTides wrote:
Yeah, I noticed that, too. As Necros said, I think they'd just be crazy not to deliver here (and have shown themselves capable of doing so well for other campaigns). I also think this funding will help them deliver AvP (whether directly or indirectly). So, I think it helps everyone for them to fund about how they are, and might even be better that it just stays around there rather than having gone nuts. But I guess I'm just being practical - I understand folks who just want nothing to do with it on principle, but personally hope they deliver it (and the remainder of AvP) well and can continue to serve the industry / make cool stuff.

Something being crazy hasn't so far stopped Prodos from doing it at least on the AVP campaign so I'm not sure it's the best metric. In any case, I suppose the "pro^3" crowd ( pro-Prodos professionals) care a bit more about the journey whereas the consumer is focused primarily on the destination. YMMV.

I think it is great that you guys are giving your money to Prodos - you're braver and more hopeful than I.

As someone that worked on R&B1, the wholly unethical ripping from those rules made me pull my EB pledge.

Inexperience and mistakes made to due to incompetence are one thing; wholesale plagiarism is another.

I can abide one, the other I simply cannot. Not everyone makes that distinction if a "good deal" is to be had. I've got enough crap in my game room and garage that a "good deal" doesn't trump my ethical boundaries.

 zedmeister wrote:

zedmeister wrote:

 Theophony wrote:
... Then again Prodos said in the other thread that they were warned by many others in the industry not to interact with the people on DakkaDakka .

Oh, please provide a link to that. Could do with a good laugh...

I've bolded the bit I'd like a link to if someone would kindly oblige...?

'Ere you go, from the Space Crusade thread: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/660/678971.page#8455062

 zedmeister wrote:
I've bolded the bit I'd like a link to if someone would kindly oblige...?

My bad, I misunderstood what you were asking for.

 warboss wrote:
That's an interesting divide we have going here. There are those who at least part time work within the same industry (Dark Severance, RiTides, and Necros) who are maintaining a positive outlook whereas the regular joe pure consumers who generally are pessimistic. I didn't really realize that until I saw all three of you post so close together (and, no, this isn't a conspiracy theory but rather just a simple observation nor am I trying to discount your opinions based on that work).

I have said this before and I think RiTides also said something similar as well. It was implied in the other posts, however I wasn't going to speak for other people, but it was clear that discussions were coming from two different points of view.

Although I did back AvP, I received my pledges from them. Wave 1 was picked up from GenCon. My Wave 2 I believe was shipped from Ninja Division. Wave 3 (which I actually didn't know I had miniatures) came in last week. I have some local friends who received their Wave 1 with their Wave 2 shipment, those I think came directly from Prodos. Even though the KS was incredibly late, I never looked at the information given as intentional lies.

That may be because I approached it as a "business owner" and have experience dealing with IP/Licensing issues. Where some people might see some things are more excuses or lies, tend to be accurate from the backend of the business side. The front-end consumer rarely see's that so may not understand that aspect fully.

I have always approached this from a "business owner" stand-point in which Prodos/Archon is a manufacturer. Since the options are limited, that means I have to constantly keep evaluating options and making sure I don't make a stubborn decision that could negatively impact the ability to deliver future products or deny access to experience or innovations. If I was a larger company, then there are more options and ability to pick and choose more but as a small business there is less of that. Other than communication (which poor communication happens with most manufacturers) and delays, everything has been accurate and straight forward. There have been instances where normal businesses wouldn't do anything without a down payment, they went ahead and basically did loan to provide materials before being fully paid. That is risky as any business, but definitely something that is has appeal to a small business. Also as someone who deals with both companies, there are subtle signs of differences between the companies of Prodos and Archon.

However most people don't want to hear that. I will get put into a "Pro-Archon/Prodoss" category and ignored for the most part. I try to be fair and try to keep an open mind. But again that is tempered by other business dealings vs only one aspect or side. I'm not saying they are good, perfect, because they aren't and have made a lot of mistakes. They are however human and it is easy to pick things apart with hindsight.

I also want to point out that I backed Robotech RPG Tactics. It has a very similar experience as AvP, however I have no other dealings with Palladium. I do consider most things posted by them as lies and misinformation. It might have to do because I haven't had other dealings, but it mostly has to do with no activity. Prodos at least shipped, has been shipping it may not be how or as fast as people like, but it is happening... where nothing else has happened on Palladium side. Anything ever done with them in the future, I probably would never back or deal with unless in retail and even then slim.

 cincydooley wrote:
Inexperience and mistakes made to due to incompetence are one thing; wholesale plagiarism is another.

That automatically assumes that plagiarism was done with ill intent, which is fine opinion and nothing wrong with that.

One the things at conventions that are discussed amongst new game designers is how to write rules. Many publishers on these panels suggest writing a rulebook for a game you know well, write out instructions as practice. Others say find a rulebook from a game you know is good and mimic it. Even at Publishers Dating at conventions, prototypes have often have "other artwork" because they are selling the game idea, not that actual artwork. Once a deal is signed, those publishers then provide artwork or re-theme, etc. It isn't uncommon to see that.

I don't believe it was done on the intent to pull one over on people. There is no way that it would conceivably get pass people. It is great it was pointed out in the campaign and can be corrected. It would have been a disaster had it not been found out until after printing. One of my projects I had to completely redesign from scratch because the rules given to me were too closely resembled another game. It wasn't copied word for word, so there was no actual plagiarism and there were differences in mechanics but the layout looked the same. I would not have recognized that if I didn't actively play the other game, but I did and as such had to rework it from scratch. If I had not recognized it, I could definitely see me being called out on it later.

 Krinsath wrote:

 zedmeister wrote:

zedmeister wrote:

 Theophony wrote:
... Then again Prodos said in the other thread that they were warned by many others in the industry not to interact with the people on DakkaDakka .

Oh, please provide a link to that. Could do with a good laugh...

I've bolded the bit I'd like a link to if someone would kindly oblige...?

'Ere you go, from the Space Crusade thread: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/660/678971.page#8455062

There's a 'better' one about Dakka Dakka being a 'cesspool of vitriol and hate' too...

The biggest issue for me is the whole AvP thing - it just wasn't handled well at all, on many levels. And many backers still haven't received stuff yet.

 Dark Severance wrote:

It wasn't copied word for word, so there was no actual plagiarism and there were differences in mechanics but the layout looked the same. I would not have recognized that if I didn't actively play the other game, but I did and as such had to rework it from scratch. If I had not recognized it, I could definitely see me being called out on it later.

And that's the difference. I don't think people expect games to be wholly original; mechanics that work, work, and people are going to use those mechanics because they work.. Games are going to be derivative. And generally, that's okay.

But, in this instance, there was very obvious direct plagiarism. Purposeful or not, it's there, very plainly, in black and white. For me, there's no room for, "yeah, buts" there. Is it possible it wasn't caught because of poor (or nonexistent) vetting processes? Sure. Doesn't make, in my mind, the plagiarism more ethical.

 Dark Severance wrote:


Although I did back AvP, I received my pledges from them. Wave 1 was picked up from GenCon. My Wave 2 I believe was shipped from Ninja Division. Wave 3 (which I actually didn't know I had miniatures) came in last week. I have some local friends who received their Wave 1 with their Wave 2 shipment, those I think came directly from Prodos. Even though the KS was incredibly late, I never looked at the information given as intentional lies.

In a perfect butterfly effect retrospectovision world, it would be interesting to see if your opinion would have been different had you received nothing (not wave 1, not 2, and certainly not 3) up until this point or close to it like some folks in the AVP thread. The number is shrinking albeit but still they exist. I really don't understand how prodos is prioritizing that stuff with some having their full pledges received (like yourself, albeit with a boost due to your gencon attendance) assuming there is no wave 4 (not sure if that is the case) whereas others have gotten nothing.

Ironically, I used to use AVP as an example of how to run a post kickstarter campaign. Obviously, that was a long time ago...

 Necros wrote:
Yep I'm looking forward to it too. It's been an interesting campaign to say the least, but I have faith they will deliver and I'll have some great looking fantasy minis to probably hate myself for never getting around to painting, like half of my collection (more like 90%). It's a good deal for the amount of minis you get, and they do have top notch talent working for them. I feel that they gotta know they gotta make it a successful campaign and their future is riding on it. I think if they get this out in a timely manner and can get AVP sorted in the meantime it will go a long way toward improving their image in the community.

Maybe, but when their go to move is lie and deceive (which they did at the start of this KS) even delivering is not going to help too much. Dishonesty and lack of integrity deserved to be called out and hammered.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 warboss wrote:

 Dark Severance wrote:


Although I did back AvP, I received my pledges from them. Wave 1 was picked up from GenCon. My Wave 2 I believe was shipped from Ninja Division. Wave 3 (which I actually didn't know I had miniatures) came in last week. I have some local friends who received their Wave 1 with their Wave 2 shipment, those I think came directly from Prodos. Even though the KS was incredibly late, I never looked at the information given as intentional lies.

In a perfect butterfly effect retrospectovision world, it would be interesting to see if your opinion would have been different had you received nothing (not wave 1, not 2, and certainly not 3) up until this point or close to it like some folks in the AVP thread. The number is shrinking albeit but still they exist. I really don't understand how prodos is prioritizing that stuff with some having their full pledges received (like yourself, albeit with a boost due to your gencon attendance) assuming there is no wave 4 (not sure if that is the case) whereas others have gotten nothing.

Ironically, I used to use AVP as an example of how to run a post kickstarter campaign. Obviously, that was a long time ago...

I also wonder what his opinion would have been if they had used his IP without permission.

 cincydooley wrote:
But, in this instance, there was very obvious direct plagiarism. Purposeful or not, it's there, very plainly, in black and white. For me, there's no room for, "yeah, buts" there. Is it possible it wasn't caught because of poor (or nonexistent) vetting processes? Sure. Doesn't make, in my mind, the plagiarism more ethical.

I agree that it plagiarism isn't ethical. As a mistake the company made there will definitely and has been a backlash because of it. If it was on purpose or a mistake, it doesn't matter since the damage is done.

Who would you ultimately hold responsible and why? Let me ask it in a different way. If CMoN released PnP rules that somehow made it through the process containing plagiarism. When they found out, they terminated the person responsible, removed the rules and then updated them, publishing them. Is CMoN still responsible and thus shouldn't be supported anymore, is the person who was terminated responsible, it was a mistake but CMoN owned up and corrected it so it is a start... how does a front-end consumer really know that person blamed was terminated?

I usually start by asking myself those questions, based on if I made the mistake, but that is moreso so I can learn from others mistakes.

 warboss wrote:
In a perfect butterfly effect retrospectovision world, it would be interesting to see if your opinion would have been different had you received nothing (not wave 1, not 2, and certainly not 3) up until this point or close to it like some folks in the AVP thread.

Given that I waited 6 months to get Battle Systems as a US Backer, compared to the rest of the world... I would probably say my opinion would not be different. There are also my dealings with MegaCon and Mantic as well.

My only gripe with Battle Systems was that I didn't want to fully commit to their 2nd KS without first seeing the quality of the 1st, because it was something I've not seen or experienced before. After I got my pledge, I found I actually over estimated what I would need so was able to adjust pledges for other KS. My experiences with MegaCon with shipped, not shipped and with Mantic completely losing my pledge. It took some time but eventually things were worked out. There was a few "this has been taken care of" and only to find out it wasn't, so there was back and forth but I didn't feel that I was lied or cheated.

With Prodos I've ordered Warzone stuff from them previously, any issues with miniatures were handled with replacements without hassles. Getting replacements from them has actually been easier than with any company I've dealt with previously.

Unfortunately I have no idea how prioritization went for shipping. I honestly believe their pledge manager itself is buggy and has issues. Given how many times I've saved things, only to come back and information was wrong or didn't save properly. That was before the whole opening, closing, reopening, closing issues they had. I know one of the people in group didn't attend GenCon, after Ninja Division sent out their packs. They wrote a queried letter to them, then got it shipped out to him. It did take a couple emails, changing the subject line so it wouldn't get threaded to the same email and spam filters though. Back before they started closing the Facebook groups, there were people saying they would put Prodos's emails submitted to mailer websites so they get spammed. There were quite a few vocal threats of physical violence, but then again its Facebook so if those are true or not or just people venting... who knows.

I personally don't understand why Prodos doesn't take the time just to email people who don't have pledges, especially here on Dakka, and prioritize those. Don't have them email, just deal with it in PMs so there is no risk or something not getting through. But yeah I have no understanding how they are prioritizing that stuff. As I've said there are a lot of decisions I would do differently though.

 CptJake wrote:
I also wonder what his opinion would have been if they had used his IP without permission.

I would have probably looked at as an opportunity, reached out and tried to make a deal. Either making a case of saying these rules are bad, let me give you something a bit different that matches and unique in exchange for something. If I was a heavy plastic miniatures company, it could have been an opportunity to still get higher detail, resin single piece miniatures for painters or collectors. It could have been in exchange for digital sculpting, printing services as well but there is definitely an opportunity.

The majority of business owners probably would not make that decision. Old school business means everyone is a competitor, that if your competitor is getting customers then most likely they will not buy from you. This was often how local game stores treated Magic and other TCGs. They didn't really want you trying to disrupt their players. If you were a TO, they tend to think you belong to a store instead of a region. If I went to Store A trying to organize their players but was from Store B, then it looked like I was taking customers. Instead I'm trying to provide both locations with customers because I know people's schedules change, so they have better access to more events thus those they wouldn't normally had as customers now become possible customers.

I treat gaming miniatures in a similar fashion. I'm not vain enough to think my rules are the bomb, the best in the world and even if they were I know people play other games. I want the gaming community to grow, not pit businesses against each other or players against one another. I recognize that people that play WH40K also play Infinity, that people that Zombicide also play Super Dungeon Explorer. Any chances for cross promotions, helping others, promoting others enhances the gaming community as a whole and introduces new potential.

Yeah,
Prodos make amazing Miniatures!

I've been waiting years for my AVP miniatures? I got some but not all.
Some backers have received nothing!
What makes the backers of LOAD believe they will be treated any different?
Will Load be placed before AVP in the queue?

AVP KS funded miniatures were on sale in FLGS and at shows before backers got them.
The same is likely to happen with LOAD.

As soon as they can grab another revenue stream and sell something Prodos sell it.
Before backers get it!

I'd recommend that backers hold their cash.
They will be able to buy from online discount retailers as soon as the product is complete.
It's risk free.

AVP is now available cheaper in store than it was sold to KS backers.
KS backers paid more and LOADs of them have nothing.
It's now available for less in stores. Risk free...

Clear miniatures?
They said they could cast these while taking our money.
But now it turns out they can't?

Prodos?

Prodos can't be trusted with our money.
Prodos called dakka a cesspool of Vitriol and Hate!
Prodos, when will I receive my stuff?
Prodos make amazing miniatures!

Panic...