Breacher Teams in Close Combat A.K.A Buffing the Tau in close combat...slightly

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**Shas'Shaam**

Kommisar Kyn wrote:

So, this is my proposed rule:

A Breacher team in close combat can use their Blaster as a close combat weapon, but it does not grant bonuses to charging extra attacks or close combat weapon extra attacks, with the following added to the weapons profile:

Range S AP Rules
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Melee S7 AP 2 Assault 1, Unweildy, Two Handed, Concussive
Up to 5" S6 AP 3 Assault 2
5 - 10" S5 AP 5 Assault 2
10 - 15" S4 AP - Assault 2

In close combat, the team uses their WS instead of BS to make their attack with their blaster (5+ to hit still pretty much anything, so there's some balance to the S7 AP2 melee and that cant be buffed with markerlights)

As this discussion is already getting heated, it might be worth asking what kind of Tau army do you play? Are you new to the faction? what kind of units do you field? it might help in the justification if say you played only small games primarily consisting of infantry, or have lack of Marker lights

Currently i own:

A gak ton of fire warriros (Strike teams) to have three 12 man squads and two 10 man squads

One singular breacher team

Two pathfinder boxes worth of pathfinders

Three stealth teams

one crisis suit

3 Broadsides (2 rail, one missile)

one ghostkeel

one riptide

one stormsurge

Darkstrider

Farsight

Cadre Fireblade

two phiranas

one hammerhead

and

one devilfish

**Dakka Wolf**

Tau are a glass canon army by design, not by mistake.

When you have the best shooting capabilities in the game by a long shot you SHOULD be expecting any army that makes successive melee charges against you to be taking little anime gremlin heads home as trophies.

**Kommisar Kyn**

Shas'Shaam wrote:
Kommisar Kyn wrote:

So, this is my proposed rule:

A Breacher team in close combat can use their Blaster as a close combat weapon, but it does not grant bonuses to charging extra attacks or close combat weapon extra attacks, with the following added to the weapons profile:

Range S AP Rules
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Melee S7 AP 2 Assault 1, Unweildy, Two Handed, Concussive
Up to 5" S6 AP 3 Assault 2
5 - 10" S5 AP 5 Assault 2
10 - 15" S4 AP - Assault 2

In close combat, the team uses their WS instead of BS to make their attack with their blaster (5+ to hit still pretty much anything, so there's some balance to the S7 AP2 melee and that cant be buffed with markerlights)

As this discussion is already getting heated, it might be worth asking what kind of Tau army do you play? Are you new to the faction? what kind of units do you field? it might help in the justification if say you played only small games primarily consisting of infantry, or have lack of Marker lights

Currently i own:

A gak ton of fire warriros (Strike teams) to have three 12 man squads and two 10 man squads

One singular breacher team

Two pathfinder boxes worth of pathfinders

Three stealth teams

one crisis suit

3 Broadsides (2 rail, one missile)

one ghostkeel

one riptide

one stormsurge

Darkstrider

Farsight

Cadre Fireblade

two phiranas

one hammerhead

and

one devilfish

Well at least its not the usual riptide spam

While I have to agree with the majority of posters in the thread saying no to using the full breacher shotguns profile in CQC, simply giving the Breachers AP3 attacks en lieu of shooting seems like a fair adjustment. They are still only S3 WS2, so they'd be hitting and wounding marines on 5+. Hardly game breaking, more last ditch effort. I'd fight that.

**Nocturus**

Kommisar Kyn wrote:
Shas'Shaam wrote:
Kommisar Kyn wrote:

So, this is my proposed rule:

A Breacher team in close combat can use their Blaster as a close combat weapon, but it does not grant bonuses to charging extra attacks or close combat weapon extra attacks, with the following added to the weapons profile:

Range S AP Rules
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Melee S7 AP 2 Assault 1, Unweildy, Two Handed, Concussive
Up to 5" S6 AP 3 Assault 2
5 - 10" S5 AP 5 Assault 2
10 - 15" S4 AP - Assault 2

In close combat, the team uses their WS instead of BS to make their attack with their blaster (5+ to hit still pretty much anything, so there's some balance to the S7 AP2 melee and that cant be buffed with markerlights)

As this discussion is already getting heated, it might be worth asking what kind of Tau army do you play? Are you new to the faction? what kind of units do you field? it might help in the justification if say you played only small games primarily consisting of infantry, or have lack of Marker lights

Currently i own:

A gak ton of fire warriros (Strike teams) to have three 12 man squads and two 10 man squads

One singular breacher team

Two pathfinder boxes worth of pathfinders

Three stealth teams

one crisis suit

3 Broadsides (2 rail, one missile)

one ghostkeel

one riptide

one stormsurge

Darkstrider

Farsight

Cadre Fireblade

two phiranas

one hammerhead

and

one devilfish

Well at least its not the usual riptide spam

While I have to agree with the majority of posters in the thread saying no to using the full breacher shotguns profile in CQC, simply giving the Breachers AP3 attacks en lieu of shooting seems like a fair adjustment. They are still only S3 WS2, so they'd be hitting and wounding marines on 5+. Hardly game breaking, more last ditch effort. I'd fight that.

I still disagree. Breachers shouldn't be AP anything just like they are now. The ONLY units in the Tau range right now that should get a buff to CC are Vespid, and Kroot. Both are more bestial in nature. Kroot should go back to S4 with two attacks from the kroot rifle (thats why it had blades on both ends) and sniper bullets should go away, like yesterday. If you want to give Kroot some form of rending to take into account they are brutal savages awesome. But I don't think it should be AP 2 either (beaks don't crack terminator armour like lobster claws), but maybe some AP3 if you role a 6 to wound. Personally I'd like to see rending go to AP3 all together and see 2+ regular armour mean something again in the game...

**master of ordinance**

Just as a general note, if Tau get this then I want my Guard units to be able to use their guns in CC too.
Melta, Hellgun and Flamer anyone?

**JimOnMars**

master of ordinance wrote:
Just as a general note, if Tau get this then I want my Guard units to be able to use their guns in CC too.
Melta, Hellgun and Flamer anyone?

Not me. I want my 10pt Ork Boy at 4+ to have the same gun as a 10pt Fire Warrior at 4+.

**Kommisar Kyn**

master of ordinance wrote:
Just as a general note, if Tau get this then I want my Guard units to be able to use their guns in CC too.
Melta, Hellgun and Flamer anyone?

While using specialist weapons like melta in assault might be pushing the boat out a little to far, I do think imperial shotguns (Guard and SM scout) should have similar profiles to the tau Breachers shotgun. It makes sense that they do more damage the closer they are. Since shotguns are typically CQC weapons as well, it makes sense in my head that they could alternatively use them in assault. Something like S4 AP4 at point blank range for IG vet shotguns and S5 AP4/3 for scouts shotguns.

I would say stick to the bearers Strength for the wound rolls though, to represent the increased difficulty in blasting kneecaps while there's swords swinging around your face.

**Xenomancers**

Kommisar Kyn wrote:
master of ordinance wrote:
Just as a general note, if Tau get this then I want my Guard units to be able to use their guns in CC too.
Melta, Hellgun and Flamer anyone?

While using specialist weapons like melta in assault might be pushing the boat out a little to far, I do think imperial shotguns (Guard and SM scout) should have similar profiles to the tau Breachers shotgun. It makes sense that they do more damage the closer they are. Since shotguns are typically CQC weapons as well, it makes sense in my head that they could alternatively use them in assault. Something like S4 AP4 at point blank range for IG vet shotguns and S5 AP4/3 for scouts shotguns.

I would say stick to the bearers Strength for the wound rolls though, to represent the increased difficulty in blasting kneecaps while there's swords swinging around your face.

I would be happier with shotgun type weapons automatically hitting the closest 2 targets within range 6 with a decent str attack (5 or 6) with 0 ap. They should auto hit in over-watch too. For the Tau give them something fancy like reduce charge distance by -3 and -5 if they are in cover. I mean the AP3 is great for the breachers but really - no one is using them because it's just not worth it. If they were an anti charging mechanism to protect firewarrriors or pathfinders from getting assaulted I think theyd see more play. For marine scouts with shotguns it would be great that they could auto hit out of their jinking LSS. As it is right now there is almost no reason to take a shotgun over a rifle - the rifle matches ROF/ has better range/ and better AP...