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Tau are not a CC orientated army so don't need such units.
Their shooting is devastating enough that you shouldn't need to be in CC unless you can help it.

With kroot I'd drop the sniper ammo and give them back the +1 attack in CC.
They are cheap bubblewrap that can throw out a few attacks to scare off smaller units.
With tau shooting why would you need a beast of a CC unit?
Kroot should be mopping up what's left of the pulse round strewn corpses, not cutting through entire units.

Vespid have always been an odd unit.
They are fast moving with close range weapons but basic CC.
Again, they aren't there to shoot or fight through units, they are to pick off chaff or small elite marine type units.


If a tau player wants a CC unit, grab a tide, surge or the FW CC tide.
Basic tau troops shouldn't be bringing down MC's in CC.



That's my thoughts anyway.

Well space marines can't bring down mcs, either. It's hilarious that the genetic superhumans wound mcs on the same number as guardsmen. And get the same armor save. Seriously, why did the emprah even bother?

And if marines could drag down MC's in CC you have movie marines, and have accomplished nothing but either breaking the game or having a 2k army consisting of 10 marines and their rhino.

I just see no reason to try and patch over Tau's only real weakness.

 Jackal wrote:
And if marines could drag down MC's in CC you have movie marines, and have accomplished nothing but either breaking the game or having a 2k army consisting of 10 marines and their rhino.

I just see no reason to try and patch over Tau's only real weakness.

There is a wide gulf of mathematical possibilities between "guardsman" and "movie marine".

And said gulf is just as wide when your thinking a marine will bring down something like a carnifex in CC.

Fluff does not come into it atall.
Hell, fluff has the nids red terror ripping through an entire garrison of guard before they could see the thing.

Game wise it pops up and gets shot to bits.




Either way though, I agree a marine has a better chance than a basic guardsman.
But a genetic superhuman is still a long way from a biological war machine.

 Jackal wrote:
And said gulf is just as wide when your thinking a marine will bring down something like a carnifex in CC.

Fluff does not come into it atall.
Hell, fluff has the nids red terror ripping through an entire garrison of guard before they could see the thing.

Game wise it pops up and gets shot to bits.




Either way though, I agree a marine has a better chance than a basic guardsman.
But a genetic superhuman is still a long way from a biological war machine.

I'm talking squad of marines. As it stands, even 20 tac marines have no shot against any MC really.

I understand that, but it's down to trying to keep the game running.
To remove special units you have to use special units or weapons.

If basic marines were able to do so you could simply run an army of tacs with devs thrown in for anti armour.

While I agree that a tac squad should be kitted out and trained well enough to bring down a MC, it would more than likely increase the cost of tacs to a stupid degree as otherwise, they would be scatterbike levels of broken.



It's pretty much impossible though to balance the fluff aswell as the rules, and in any wargame, the rules need to be balanced as best as possible. (I know, its GW etc)

 Kanluwen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Kroot need to go back to having T4 standard as well as their guns being Assault 1. Bam, simple fix.
Vespid need to be 20 points, but need another wound and Rending for their melee attacks (I think they already have 2 standard? If not they need two attacks). Bam, simple fix.

None of the Tau should be capable in melee, but their auxiliary forces need more than they have right now.

Kroot can go to T4 when Terminators get T5, and Vespid can get another Wound when Terminators get another Wound.

What Terminators need is S5 Storm Bolters, two heavy weapons in a minimum sized squad, and for Lightning Claw variants to be 30 whilst TH/SS is 35-40.

 Jackal wrote:
I understand that, but it's down to trying to keep the game running.
To remove special units you have to use special units or weapons.

If basic marines were able to do so you could simply run an army of tacs with devs thrown in for anti armour.

While I agree that a tac squad should be kitted out and trained well enough to bring down a MC, it would more than likely increase the cost of tacs to a stupid degree as otherwise, they would be scatterbike levels of broken.



It's pretty much impossible though to balance the fluff aswell as the rules, and in any wargame, the rules need to be balanced as best as possible. (I know, its GW etc)

Because being able to punch out an MC in melee better than guardsmen while taking heavy losses in return is clearly as good as evaporating IKs from 36" away. Clearly.

OK, so what buffs would you expect to see?
Easier to see what you expect before I bother the answer.

Mainly as everyone has their own ideas of fixes etc.

 Jackal wrote:
OK, so what buffs would you expect to see?
Easier to see what you expect before I bother the answer.

Mainly as everyone has their own ideas of fixes etc.

Incremental improvements. Like maybe a typical marine can wound a typical MC on a 5-6 instead of 6. MC still gets the armor save. This is how I would have it in my D10 version of the game. Maybe MCs smash nerfs power armor down to a 5+ instead of completely negating it. Stuff like that.

Mechanics in the game that scoop marines, or hell, teqs as fast as guardsmen are hard to price and play against. The ion accelerator is another example.

Agree with all the Tau hate.

If someone actually touches you in CC, you should auto lose.

So your not essentially talking about changing marines as such, more changing the mechanics of the game instead.
I'd agree that maybe a rend mechanic like WHFB had and AoS, rather than fixed saves would improve it, but it would be a huge change.

However, that has nothing to do with tau in CC.
More than happy tl comment on another thread though to discuss said changes.

A Breacher team in close combat can use their Blaster as a close combat weapon, but it does not grant bonuses to charging extra attacks or close combat weapon extra attacks, with the following added to the weapons profile:

Range S AP Rules
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Melee S7 AP 2 Assault 1, Unweildy, Two Handed, Concussive
Up to 5" S6 AP 3 Assault 2
5 - 10" S5 AP 5 Assault 2
10 - 15" S4 AP - Assault 2

As far as this goes, I could see this as ok as long as there were a couple of rule changes.

1: Melee range is the same as the 5" range (so S6 AP3, two handed, unwieldy. Lose the concussive.). S7 AP2 hits in close combat? AFTER you've already shot? Waaaay too powerful. That's a powerfist for every guy, and the guys probably cost lest than a regular powerfist!

2: Have it work like the ork burna. If you shot with it that turn, it's just a flamer. If you didn't and you are fighting in close combat, it's a two handed close combat weapon with AP 3. This way, it's more of a tactical decision, and you're not running up the board, blasting guys in close range with your S6 shots, and then charging in for even more S6 shots. You could run into situations where you're 6" away from some marines (for example), and can't shoot them with the AP 3 version, So do you shoot them with the AP 5 version and hope they fail their saves? Or do you charge in, risking overwatch and getting punched in the face, for cutting though their armor when you do hit? If it was something like this, I honestly wouldn't mind it.

3: All this being said, if you are adding on rules to these guys, make sure there is some sort of price hike for it. Getting more flexible usability for free? No thanks.

Again, like most people here have said, Tau are exellent at shooting, but terrible at melee. If you want someone great at melee, then maybe a different army is what you need. I play orks, and I know my army is horrible at shooting for the most part. So I don't plan on wiping my opponent out with Dakka, I plan on getting in his/her face, and hitting him/her with a powerklaw to the face. The ork way. It's what Gork would want.

 curran12 wrote:
Oh nice. Now Tau have a unit that can kill anything short of a Land Raider in melee with almost no effort.

Not no. But hell no.

Oh breachers can kill land raiders in cc (emp grenades anyone?)

Ouroboros0977 wrote:

 curran12 wrote:
Oh nice. Now Tau have a unit that can kill anything short of a Land Raider in melee with almost no effort.

Not no. But hell no.

Oh breachers can kill land raiders in cc (emp grenades anyone?)

Very, very slowly. One grenade a turn.

I think what's needed is for Tau to explain the greater good in greater detail to a greater audience.
Then you could include Broodlords and Grey Knight captains in your Breacher squads.

Martel732 wrote:

Ouroboros0977 wrote:

 curran12 wrote:
Oh nice. Now Tau have a unit that can kill anything short of a Land Raider in melee with almost no effort.

Not no. But hell no.

Oh breachers can kill land raiders in cc (emp grenades anyone?)

Very, very slowly. One grenade a turn.

Or a lot more if you don't use draft rules.

 Palleus wrote:

A Breacher team in close combat can use their Blaster as a close combat weapon, but it does not grant bonuses to charging extra attacks or close combat weapon extra attacks, with the following added to the weapons profile:

Range S AP Rules
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Melee S7 AP 2 Assault 1, Unweildy, Two Handed, Concussive
Up to 5" S6 AP 3 Assault 2
5 - 10" S5 AP 5 Assault 2
10 - 15" S4 AP - Assault 2

As far as this goes, I could see this as ok as long as there were a couple of rule changes.

1: Melee range is the same as the 5" range (so S6 AP3, two handed, unwieldy. Lose the concussive.). S7 AP2 hits in close combat? AFTER you've already shot? Waaaay too powerful. That's a powerfist for every guy, and the guys probably cost lest than a regular powerfist!

2: Have it work like the ork burna. If you shot with it that turn, it's just a flamer. If you didn't and you are fighting in close combat, it's a two handed close combat weapon with AP 3. This way, it's more of a tactical decision, and you're not running up the board, blasting guys in close range with your S6 shots, and then charging in for even more S6 shots. You could run into situations where you're 6" away from some marines (for example), and can't shoot them with the AP 3 version, So do you shoot them with the AP 5 version and hope they fail their saves? Or do you charge in, risking overwatch and getting punched in the face, for cutting though their armor when you do hit? If it was something like this, I honestly wouldn't mind it.

3: All this being said, if you are adding on rules to these guys, make sure there is some sort of price hike for it. Getting more flexible usability for free? No thanks.

Again, like most people here have said, Tau are excellent at shooting, but terrible at melee. If you want someone great at melee, then maybe a different army is what you need. I play orks, and I know my army is horrible at shooting for the most part. So I don't plan on wiping my opponent out with Dakka, I plan on getting in his/her face, and hitting him/her with a powerklaw to the face. The ork way. It's what Gork would want.

I can fully get behind this idea. as you say, tau shooting followed by more tau shooting but in melee would be rather brutal, and pretty broken, but having the choice between the 2 seems like a cool idea. I don't own Breachers myself (yet) but I would have no issue going toe to toe with something like this, as Breachers are a much more CQC orientated option compared to FW's at the end of the day, and their shooting isn't amazing unless they are point blank.

Hmmmm.... let's upgrade Tau Fire Warriors to have Kir'qath Armour, conferring a rerollable 2+ invulnerable save, including adrenaline injectors which boost S, I, A and T to 8 and grant Relentless. Additionally, the integrated Or'es life support system grants a 2+ rerollable FnP save and Fearless.

Then, we outfit each Fire Warrior and Shas'ui with:

Meltachain Clawhammer

Sx2, AP1, Lance, Concussive, Shred, Armourbane, Pulse Carbine Compatible.

Not unwieldy since it includes Se'hen che lel boosters. These also enhance the martial spirit of the Tau, giving Hatred, Rage and Preferred Enemy.

Pulse Carbine Compatible: Gains an additional attack if wielded in conjunction with a Pulse Carbine.

We'll also give the Fire Warriors the Shas Shi'ur enhancements:

Movement: 12 inches (may run 12 inches, no roll needed). Can move each phase if a LD test is passed.

Charge range: 24 inches, with pre-measuring allowed.

Treat all difficult and dangerous terrain as normal terrain.

All transports count as assault vehicles.

S10 AP1 Hammer of Wrath with Shred.

J'karra Protocol: An enemy unit assaulted by a Fire Warrior squad may not Overwatch. Instead, the Tau shoot from the hip at full BS while assaulting. If this increases the charge distance in such a way that it would normally result in a Failed Charge, the Tau charge succeeds anyway because the blood of the enemies slickens the boots of the Fire Warriors. If the shooting obliterates the enemy unit, the Tau may assault another enemy unit within range (gaining 12 additional inches to their charge range because they sense victory).

Mont'au projection: A Fire Warrior squad which has obliterated an enemy in close combat is immune from shooting the following enemy turn as if though it were still locked in combat. Also grants the Fire Warriors +4 to Sweeping Advance checks.

Mont'ka Grenades: Enemies always strike last in close combat.

Formation: Shan'al Tau'va Shi: If more than one unit of Fire Warriors is taken, the first unit costs 1 ppm and any number of Fire Warriors units can then be taken, costing nothing and not taking up any FOC slots. For every two units of Fire Warriors taken this way, a free Riptide may be taken (also costing no points and using no FOC slots).

*Slow clap*

Bravo, sir, bravo. Well played.

Beautiful

Tau CC is their only weakness. This would make them even more overpowered. 7th ed is also a shooting edition making the Tau even stronger. They are also described as being physically frail and having weak bones, even when compared to humans. And Tau use auxiliaries for CC like Kroot. A dedicated CC unit would make the Tau broken.

Cptn_Cronssant wrote:
Tau CC is their only weakness

Physic phases says hi.

While I don't think the suggestion is a good one, as it would be OP for a Tau army, I find it very funny that everyone who complains that Tau ignore 3 phases of the game, complain when someone wants to simply try and find a way to make them function in one of those three phases.

Remember, every point spent on a unit that strikes last in combat and is still T3, short ranged, and paper thin is a point not spent on Riptides, Ghostkeels, Stormsurges, and all the other things people hate on.

And 10 of those guys hitting at I1 will still only equate to maybe 2 or three wounds with them hitting at S7 or 6.

I personally love breachers, because I like the troop choices in the Tau list (well not kroot anymore since they turned them into snipers...) and devilfish. Neither of which is really OP or tournament viable. But hey, keep the hate rolling if it makes you feel better

Nocturus wrote:
While I don't think the suggestion is a good one, as it would be OP for a Tau army, I find it very funny that everyone who complains that Tau ignore 3 phases of the game, complain when someone wants to simply try and find a way to make them function in one of those three phases.

Remember, every point spent on a unit that strikes last in combat and is still T3, short ranged, and paper thin is a point not spent on Riptides, Ghostkeels, Stormsurges, and all the other things people hate on.

And 10 of those guys hitting at I1 will still only equate to maybe 2 or three wounds with them hitting at S7 or 6.

I personally love breachers, because I like the troop choices in the Tau list (well not kroot anymore since they turned them into snipers...) and devilfish. Neither of which is really OP or tournament viable. But hey, keep the hate rolling if it makes you feel better

Given that the Tau army already vastly over performs in one of those phases to the point that they can remove an entire army in a couple of turns worth of shooting and can play the JSJ game with ease and also just happen to be incredibly mobile, the hate train at this, and any other, suggestion to make them good in the assault phase too is well deserved.

Right now the Tau army leads in the Movement phase and utterly dominates in the Shooting phase, and then just to compound matters any Battle Suit unit can make yet another move in the Assault phase, meaning that no matter how hard you press it you are never going to get close to Tau by advancing across the board. Assuming you last long enough to make it part of the way then the Tau army will just move away from them whilst still shooting.
So what other options do you have?
Well, you could try and Deep Strike. Except the Tau army has access to more Interceptor than any other army anywhere has, or should have, available to it. Interceptor Riptides, Interceptor Stormsurges, Interceptor everything. So, you Deep Strike in your unit/transport and the Tau army instantly opens up on it. Out of thirty Marines and their Drop Pods maybe a single bod will survive. If you are lucky.
Well, that idea was bunk. What else do we have?
Flyers! Everyone loves (hates) flyers. They are good, fast and difficult to hit without Skyfire, and most armies only have access to one or two Skyfire platforms and the only one that can really spam them is.... Oh. Yet again tau can spam an easy counter in the form of Skyfire everywhere. And many Skyfire platforms also get Interceptor, so your flyers are dead on arrival. But at least your flyers can jink right, so you can dodge most of their shots? One word: Markerlights. Markerlights allow the Tau army to ignore cover modifiers when they shoot, so Jinking your flyer is actually a terrible idea because it will do nothing to affect your survival and will only hamper your return fire in the unlikely event that you survive.
But, let us just assume for a moment that you actually make it to the Assault range. Your battered and bloody troops finally get close to the hated foe and lift their weapons up in one final charge, ready to exact their vengeance. They rise up and charge, blood curdling screams and battle cries emanating from their mouths as they close the gap to smash the hated foe who has so bloodied them, they rush forwards.....
And die in a hail of fire as every Tau unit within 6" of the target opens up on them.

So, there you have it,even if you should manage the impossible and reach the Tau lines you will still be massacred by the combined Overwatch of a dozen units. And this is why the hate train will continue rolling for as long as the Tau army is so stupidly over powered.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Nocturus wrote:
While I don't think the suggestion is a good one, as it would be OP for a Tau army, I find it very funny that everyone who complains that Tau ignore 3 phases of the game, complain when someone wants to simply try and find a way to make them function in one of those three phases.

Remember, every point spent on a unit that strikes last in combat and is still T3, short ranged, and paper thin is a point not spent on Riptides, Ghostkeels, Stormsurges, and all the other things people hate on.

And 10 of those guys hitting at I1 will still only equate to maybe 2 or three wounds with them hitting at S7 or 6.

I personally love breachers, because I like the troop choices in the Tau list (well not kroot anymore since they turned them into snipers...) and devilfish. Neither of which is really OP or tournament viable. But hey, keep the hate rolling if it makes you feel better

Given that the Tau army already vastly over performs in one of those phases to the point that they can remove an entire army in a couple of turns worth of shooting and can play the JSJ game with ease and also just happen to be incredibly mobile, the hate train at this, and any other, suggestion to make them good in the assault phase too is well deserved.

Right now the Tau army leads in the Movement phase and utterly dominates in the Shooting phase, and then just to compound matters any Battle Suit unit can make yet another move in the Assault phase, meaning that no matter how hard you press it you are never going to get close to Tau by advancing across the board. Assuming you last long enough to make it part of the way then the Tau army will just move away from them whilst still shooting.
So what other options do you have?
Well, you could try and Deep Strike. Except the Tau army has access to more Interceptor than any other army anywhere has, or should have, available to it. Interceptor Riptides, Interceptor Stormsurges, Interceptor everything. So, you Deep Strike in your unit/transport and the Tau army instantly opens up on it. Out of thirty Marines and their Drop Pods maybe a single bod will survive. If you are lucky.
Well, that idea was bunk. What else do we have?
Flyers! Everyone loves (hates) flyers. They are good, fast and difficult to hit without Skyfire, and most armies only have access to one or two Skyfire platforms and the only one that can really spam them is.... Oh. Yet again tau can spam an easy counter in the form of Skyfire everywhere. And many Skyfire platforms also get Interceptor, so your flyers are dead on arrival. But at least your flyers can jink right, so you can dodge most of their shots? One word: Markerlights. Markerlights allow the Tau army to ignore cover modifiers when they shoot, so Jinking your flyer is actually a terrible idea because it will do nothing to affect your survival and will only hamper your return fire in the unlikely event that you survive.
But, let us just assume for a moment that you actually make it to the Assault range. Your battered and bloody troops finally get close to the hated foe and lift their weapons up in one final charge, ready to exact their vengeance. They rise up and charge, blood curdling screams and battle cries emanating from their mouths as they close the gap to smash the hated foe who has so bloodied them, they rush forwards.....
And die in a hail of fire as every Tau unit within 6" of the target opens up on them.

So, there you have it,even if you should manage the impossible and reach the Tau lines you will still be massacred by the combined Overwatch of a dozen units. And this is why the hate train will continue rolling for as long as the Tau army is so stupidly over powered.

You sir are more or less correct as long as your opponent is good at rolling what he needs. Myself, my dice despise me and I can never hit the broad side of barn when I need to. Tau are fairly mobile. Not nearly as mobile as say bikers or jetbikes that are very previlant in the tournament scene, but JSJ does make something a little unique and very mobile if you can roll lots of 6's. JSJ gives a movement of 2 to 12 inches. It always seems I roll 2's when I need a roll of 7 or more.
For the low low price of 25 points per model I can turn any suit that can take two upgrades into both interceptor and skyfire. An amazing ability I do not disagree. However, if I fire interceptor I do believe I cannot fire that same weapon in my folliwing shooting phase (I'm at work and don't have the rule book so may be wrong). While I think the interceptor is undercosted by 5 or 10 points, it is situational at best, and is the only counter we have to an alpha strike, which is kinda nice since any psychic shenanigans we have ZERO answer to, its a trade off. Skyfire on the other hand? I haven't upgraded anything to take that in over a year. I have seen less than two fliers on ALL the boards combined at the local tournaments over the course of the last 8 months.
Ahh, markerlights. Yes, the game breaker that is right? So that jinking flier of yours got fired at by markers and lost its jink? Well, first I had to hit it on 6's (can't upgrade pathfinders or marker drones to skyfire), so statistically I fired 12 of them at you to get the two required hits. Thats a minimum of 132 points of pathfinders, or more likely since drones are more previliant now, 168 points of drones. I then have to declare before I roll to hit, if I am going to use those marker lights to A.) increase my balistic skill or B.) remove your cover save. Now since I don't have any form of skyfire (as I said, the tournament scene in my local meta has abandoned them), and it is my turn, I say you have to chose to jink first (both events occur before shooting I believe, once again, at work, don't have the book in front of me). You decide, if I were you, to jink anyway. This forces me to make the decision to fire at you at BS 3, and let you keep your save, or to remove your cover save, and hit on 6s. It's my only "magic" in a game where my opponents playing eldar or deamons spend 45 minutes per psychic phase just trying to remember which of there 30 psykers have what spells.
Now I do agree, that the 6" bubble that a unit gets for overwatch support can be painful, and I have seen it help me win maybe... two games. But once again, I'm hitting on 6s, so that is pure luck.

Please tell me how wrong I am. I by no means think Tau are weak, I believe they are number 3 or 4 on the power list. I by no means think they should dominate the CC phase, but I also by NO means believe they are the dominant shooting army either. That title by far goes to Eldar. Just as the psychic phase goes to Eldar. I couldn't tell you who dominates the CC phase, because any army purely set up for CC loses to EVERY army that has more ranged weapons. Tau are not exclusive in that aspect. That is a flaw of both 6th and 7th editions.

Also, that being deleted problem from two turns of shooting, I have never quite accomplished it myself playing as Tau. Admitedly, we don't play on open boards with zero train so I can force my opponent to march into my guns with zero cover or LOS blocking terrain. I also don't think I've ever shot a Deep striking army into submission after their pods landed either. Most of my opponents look and see where the AP 3 or better stuff is, and focus on squishier targets like markerlights (which with the exception of drone net, don't have interceptor) and use that LOS blocking terrain I mentioned before to keep out of sight of the other more dangerous guns, or take a calculated risk on losing a couple of guys to failed armour/cover saves upon landing, but once again, I don't use loaded dice, and don't roll straight 6s. At best I get average rolls, and those don't tend to delete 10 man squads of marines with 12 shots.

But I digress and this is completly off the topic of the original poster.

Yes, the Tau army needs its AUXILIARIES to form a slightly better speed bump, but no, the Tau themselves should not become anymore CC oriented than they already are.

Its totally not even worth the effort to go and correct every little thing you said that was wrong, which is most of it

Nocturus wrote:
Yes, the Tau army needs its AUXILIARIES to form a slightly better speed bump, but no, the Tau themselves should not become anymore CC oriented than they already are.

This is pretty much how it needs to be. If there are any effective Melee/Psychic options in the Tau order of battle, they are not going to be actually Tau. It's not like their fluff doesn't have plenty of opportunities for these alien auxiliaries to take up the slack.

Kroot is easiest to answer by giving them their previous stat-line back. Give them a Pistol and CCW along with their rifle to represent their old abilities without special rules. If you want Kroot Snipers, make them Elites like the Merc codex had them. Simple.

For a heavy melee unit, bring in the Demiurg. Sure, they may end up being close to Terminators with Cyclical Ion Blasters instead of Storm Bolters, but they are an option in the fluff. And that's not even considering converting some Forgeworld options in to Citadel via the Kharnoc Riders and Great Kharnoc.

For a psychic unit, we can have the Nicassar in zero-G environment suits, similar in concept to City of Heroes villain Nemesis War Hulks.

So, fluff options for the army to fill those holes are available, but they should not be Tau themselves.