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So, I proposed this question to a few close friends, and they seemed to agree with me (though they don't play 40k so it was a bias-less response)

My question was: Can a shotgun be used in a melee fight?

Well, my friends answers were along the following: If you had the time to grab the shotgun and pull the trigger at someone trying to hack you in half with a chainsword, the shotgun might be close enough to shatter the armor the barrel is resting against and punch the person wearing it hard enough to shatter organs...or...whatever it is space marines...or...whatever you get the point.

In the Tau Codex, it states in the fluff text that Breacher teams are drilled in close combat and are "the bravest" in learning such maneuvers...or something like that. So, why wouldn't fire caste academies tell their Breacher Shas'suul (Cadets for you non xenos out there), if you have your weapon out, pull the trigger, no matter how close they are, don't default to punching because you aren't going to win. Period.

So, this is my proposed rule:

A Breacher team in close combat can use their Blaster as a close combat weapon, but it does not grant bonuses to charging extra attacks or close combat weapon extra attacks, with the following added to the weapons profile:

Range S AP Rules
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Melee S7 AP 2 Assault 1, Unweildy, Two Handed, Concussive
Up to 5" S6 AP 3 Assault 2
5 - 10" S5 AP 5 Assault 2
10 - 15" S4 AP - Assault 2

In close combat, the team uses their WS instead of BS to make their attack with their blaster (5+ to hit still pretty much anything, so there's some balance to the S7 AP2 melee and that cant be buffed with markerlights)

Heres my bit of defense for this proposal.

1. Ive played Tau for a long time, every game I get locked in Melee combat, I lose. Plain and simple. And trying to use the "our weapons are useless!" rule has a 0% chance of working as most enemies have to roll 3+ to wipe you. This "rule" allows a small buffer to curb the curb stomping of Tau in melee, not to much of a curb, but hey I punched you like...12 times... shouldn't you feel SOMETHING?

2. A space marine should be proficient enough to swing a sword at a little fire warrior, and with perhaps some lucky rolling, maybe the shas'la can survive and strike back to actually put a dent in the Ceremite armor instead of just rolling over and dying.

3. Taking a Breacher team takes a force organization slot, so sure, take all Breacher teams, but if your heavy stuff gets killed, you're going to get out-ranged...AS TAU... so that leaves a "null" area where bolters can out-range you and then do some serious damage.

4. Cadre Fireblades don't buff blasters.

5. The concussive seems like a bit much, but getting hit with a shotgun at point blank would obviously knock someone back a bit, so...maybe

6. I get that Tau are a very shooty rangy army, and the good ol' British firing line is a somewhat popular tactic, but to watch Shas'la after Shas'la fall, even on good dice rolls...Its infuriating, because as soon as the first combat is lost, its sweeping advance after sweeping advance that gets you tabled. And I've won too few times with Tau to just roll over and give up.

Leave some suggestions or whathave you. Ill see them eventually.

1. You lose in melee because you have stupidly powerful ranged guns. Welcome to your factions weakness.

2. See above.

3. That's leaving a deliberate flaw in your army. It's the same as me taking 0 anti air and complaining flyers are too strong.

4. So? They buff Fire Warriors.

5. Everything is a bit much except Two Handed and Unwieldy.

6. Replace "Shas'la" with Grey Hunter, Blood Claw, EVERY Eldar Infantry except Dark Reapers, Every Harlequin unit and so on.

Tldr: No you just want to remove Tau's weakness. Join the rest of us and have a weakness.

I like the idea on a fluff/realism basis, but in Game play I have to agree with pm713. Firewarriors simply do not belong in CQC, and this is why they are dying for you.

As a house rule, I'd suggest stick with the up to 5" profile, as even a pulse shotgun should not be able to reliably punch through terminator armour, a standard marine maybe, but not a terminator (they have enough to worry about from the Tau ) This is also purely taking in to account weapon strength, and not the warriors ability behind them. Firewarriors, while brave for Tau, are nothing compared to the zealot marines, who are also shooting explosive pistol ammunition AS WELL as swinging chainswords about. It would be hard to ram a shotgun in the mouth of a guy who essentially has a mini bazooka as a pistol

Crisis teams however can be surprisingly effective in melee, and I have seen some players use them as such with flamers. I believe the unofficial version of Killteam:HoR actually has close combat options for them.

Wait, people can actually make it into close combat with the Tau? They can actually survive all the Interceptor, multiple Overwatch, Skyfire, BS 5 shooting, Ignores cover, etc and make it into close combat?
They bloody well deserve that win then.

OP, you will find no sympathy from me. Tau are already one of the top three factions and quite frankly asking for your one and only weakness in your already overpowered army to be removed is, well for want of a better word, disgusting.

Melee profiles don't have "assault 1". See, you're a tau guy - you don't know nothing bout melee. Just accept that instead of handing free powerfists+1 to everyone for free.

So, this is my proposed rule:

A Breacher team in close combat can use their Blaster as a close combat weapon, but it does not grant bonuses to charging extra attacks or close combat weapon extra attacks, with the following added to the weapons profile:

Range S AP Rules
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Melee S7 AP 2 Assault 1, Unweildy, Two Handed, Concussive
Up to 5" S6 AP 3 Assault 2
5 - 10" S5 AP 5 Assault 2
10 - 15" S4 AP - Assault 2

In close combat, the team uses their WS instead of BS to make their attack with their blaster (5+ to hit still pretty much anything, so there's some balance to the S7 AP2 melee and that cant be buffed with markerlights)

As this discussion is already getting heated, it might be worth asking what kind of Tau army do you play? Are you new to the faction? what kind of units do you field? it might help in the justification if say you played only small games primarily consisting of infantry, or have lack of Marker lights

Oh nice. Now Tau have a unit that can kill anything short of a Land Raider in melee with almost no effort.

Not no. But hell no.

As a Tau player who often gets squished in melee, I have to say: um, no. Nein. Nyet. Nej. No way, Jose. Bad idea.

Making them WS3/I3, like Hazard Suits, maybe, or letting them get Hit and Run (as a paid upgrade), maybe. But no more.

jade_angel wrote:
As a Tau player who often gets squished in melee, I have to say: um, no. Nein. Nyet. Nej. No way, Jose. Bad idea.

Making them WS3/I3, like Hazard Suits, maybe, or letting them get Hit and Run (as a paid upgrade), maybe. But no more.

Now this is a better idea.

The Riptide and Stormsurge will beat most marine units in CC. Just wanted to remind everyone.

Martel732 wrote:
The Riptide and Stormsurge will beat most marine units in CC. Just wanted to remind everyone.

You don't normally move those forward or charge with them much do you though.

pm713 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The Riptide and Stormsurge will beat most marine units in CC. Just wanted to remind everyone.

You don't normally move those forward or charge with them much do you though.

You'd be surprised. Both can fire on the move just fine. I see Riptides assault crippled squads all the time. I see Stormsurges assault all kinds of things when necessary.

Martel732 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The Riptide and Stormsurge will beat most marine units in CC. Just wanted to remind everyone.

You don't normally move those forward or charge with them much do you though.

You'd be surprised. Both can fire on the move just fine. I see Riptides assault crippled squads all the time. I see Stormsurges assault all kinds of things when necessary.

I'll take your word for it. You probably see more Riptides and Stormsurges than I do.

Also, in cases where CC can't be prevented, why not do the charging? I suppose the Stormsurge might not want to unanchor, but it can be worth it.

Its ok Martel

the more you complain about Blood angels the further that update will be pushed back.

But really no way.
Tau does not need to be any better at CC than it already is.

its not their shtick.

Kroot maybe. but even giving hit and run to regular tau undermines the fact that they got caught in CC in the first place.

maybe at best the donkey punch gauntlet as a non relic item. but only because its a cool item

Ok, Kroot and Vespids I'd buy off on. Kroot don't need much: just change their pulse round gun profile from "R24 S4 AP6 Rapid-Fire" to "R12 S4 AP6 Assault 2" and the melee profile from two-handed to counting as dual-wielding, and done. They're still not actually good, but they work as anti-assault bubble-wrap and can be useful counter-chargers who can still put in some not-entirely-awful shooting first.

As for Vespids, they just need either Furious Charge or +1A, and maybe a cost break. With WS3, I6 and H&R already, they're close to being useful charge-foilers.

Neither of these changes would allow Tau to use melee offensively - they'd both be defensive moves to keep bully units away from critical fire bases like Broadsides or Fire Warriors.

No they dont need assault rifles.

and besides they will always take and use the sniper profile anyway.

at best just give them +1 attacks like they used to have.

even then they are so easy to kill its not a big deal.


Vespids dont need to be in CC ether. they should be the strange bugs that shoot ap3 weapons. just make them cheaper.

Martel732 wrote:
The Riptide and Stormsurge will beat most marine units in CC. Just wanted to remind everyone.

Beat me too it. Tau is somehow weak in CC? They have indestructible riptides with 3 ap 2 attacks at str 6? Nothing but a dedicated melee unit ca handle that - and no dedicated melle unit can take 2 full turns of tau firepower + Tau over-watch to get there without forming a 800+ points deathstar. In which case even if you are invisible you are still taking high BS shots from markerlights from as many units as they can muster.

Tau certainly doesn't need offensive melee power. Str 7 ap 2 on cheap guys that also carry defensive grenades and assault weapons is nuts (you could throw a grenade to blind people before charging, and suddenly your WS2 is not so bad anymore).

Apart from the tau units that are good in CC as a side effect of their type (being MC or GC), tau's answer to melee is completely defensive: a buffed-up overwatch phase, and bubble-wrapping with cheap wounds (kroots). I personally dislike their overwatch, as it's yet another shooting sequence, which unlike interceptor is free (supporting fire doesn't prevent you from shooting normally next turn). I also feel that it lacks originality, and isn't very consistent with the rest (they have a gakky initiative, so how come they can react so well when the guys next to them get charged?).

I wouldn't mind if tau got a slight buff in CC in exchange for loosing supporting fire.

An example of a possible buff: Tau's defensive grenades are called photon grenades, and many units have night vision. So maybe some tau weapons could get an additional weapon profile, which would some type of photon canon: in the shooting phase, a unit can shoot their photon cannon at an enemy unit engaged in combat: this enemy unit is blinded, and the friendly tau unit that was engaged in combat can break free (consolidation move). The probability of breaking the combat could be dependent on the number of hits that you got with your photon canon (on a 6+ with 1 hit, on a 2+ with 5 for example).
This would help tau in CC, but would come at a cost, unlike supporting fire (here you would have to forgo shooting at a enemy unit in exchange from freeing one of yours). Also you would have to endure a full assault phase before you even try to free one of your units, so you don't just deny the assault phase.

Or Tau can just throw the photon grenades like any other defensive grenade.

honestly would of liked supporting fire being linked to a drone that could be shot out of the unit.

of course smart players will hide or keep it in the back, but its a countering option to an ability that is relativity good.

or otherwise just make all over watch dependent on an initiative check. that way taking drones would be a good idea.

it also overall gives a slight bonus to assault armies which is a good thing.

Kroot need to go back to having T4 standard as well as their guns being Assault 1. Bam, simple fix.
Vespid need to be 20 points, but need another wound and Rending for their melee attacks (I think they already have 2 standard? If not they need two attacks). Bam, simple fix.

None of the Tau should be capable in melee, but their auxiliary forces need more than they have right now.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Kroot need to go back to having T4 standard as well as their guns being Assault 1. Bam, simple fix.
Vespid need to be 20 points, but need another wound and Rending for their melee attacks (I think they already have 2 standard? If not they need two attacks). Bam, simple fix.

None of the Tau should be capable in melee, but their auxiliary forces need more than they have right now.

Only if Kroot loses sniper ammo. it was a bad thing to add in an army that didnt need it.

vespids with rending melee attack and hit and run and more attacks? naaaaaa. they should be an annoyance. not a threat.

And at 20 points that's what they'd be. A minor threat. Nothing more, nothing less, and they'd not be a terrible choice.

There's also nothing wrong with them having Sniper ammo if they decide to purchase it. Kroot do lots of things to adapt to combat.

pm713 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The Riptide and Stormsurge will beat most marine units in CC. Just wanted to remind everyone.

You don't normally move those forward or charge with them much do you though.

You'd be surprised. Both can fire on the move just fine. I see Riptides assault crippled squads all the time. I see Stormsurges assault all kinds of things when necessary.

I'll take your word for it. You probably see more Riptides and Stormsurges than I do.

Stormsurges are GMCs. If something gets too close, it conceivably could be a good idea to stomp it to death.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
And at 20 points that's what they'd be. A minor threat. Nothing more, nothing less, and they'd not be a terrible choice.

There's also nothing wrong with them having Sniper ammo if they decide to purchase it. Kroot do lots of things to adapt to combat.

Yeah, lets just give the none close combat army a close combat unit that can also snoot really well too. No. Either they lose the sniper ammo or they dont get a CC buff.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
And at 20 points that's what they'd be. A minor threat. Nothing more, nothing less, and they'd not be a terrible choice.

There's also nothing wrong with them having Sniper ammo if they decide to purchase it. Kroot do lots of things to adapt to combat.

Yeah, lets just give the none close combat army a close combat unit that can also snoot really well too. No. Either they lose the sniper ammo or they dont get a CC buff.

I'd say keep the sniper rounds, but maybe make them more expensive as an option (2pts per model?) Or as an alternative, remove their Armour save entirely, but again add an option for Kroot armour, 1 - 2 pts per model.

at the same time, I think Kroot should get their old Profile back, with their S4 attacks at I3. They're not exactly CQC monsters, nor do they even last very long in assault unless you're running blobs. Kroot Hounds and Krootox should make them more viable for assaults, but are rarely seen in my gaming meta, so I'm going purely off pen and paper stats.

Honestly, even with all the buffs proposed so far for Kroot, they're still basically inferior to Assault Marines or Raptors, and they don't have the numbers that Orks do. They're not offensive assault units, they're anti-assault bubble wrap. That's a job that they can't do now, because they can't shoot and charge in the same turn - an enemy will just charge the Fire Warriors behind them, and eat one less unit's worth of Overwatch, since Kroot lack Supporting Fire.

Just give tbem something like an ork shoota and loose sniper rounds.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Kroot need to go back to having T4 standard as well as their guns being Assault 1. Bam, simple fix.
Vespid need to be 20 points, but need another wound and Rending for their melee attacks (I think they already have 2 standard? If not they need two attacks). Bam, simple fix.

None of the Tau should be capable in melee, but their auxiliary forces need more than they have right now.

Kroot can go to T4 when Terminators get T5, and Vespid can get another Wound when Terminators get another Wound.

Martel732 wrote:
Just give tbem something like an ork shoota and loose sniper rounds.

Or make the sniper rounds 2ppm. You know those are Heavy 1, not Assault 1, right? Shoot those, and you're not charging. Wanna charge? You can't shoot those. And no, markerlights cannot get around that problem.

Besides, with only 24" range, sniper rounds are only a real threat if the Kroot get into range to use them, which they mostly do by Outflanking. If they're doing that, they're not being anti-assault bubble wrap.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Kroot need to go back to having T4 standard as well as their guns being Assault 1. Bam, simple fix.
Vespid need to be 20 points, but need another wound and Rending for their melee attacks (I think they already have 2 standard? If not they need two attacks). Bam, simple fix.

None of the Tau should be capable in melee, but their auxiliary forces need more than they have right now.

Kroot can go to T4 when Terminators get T5, and Vespid can get another Wound when Terminators get another Wound.

Terminators blow chunks, that much I'll agree with, but Kroot and Vespids aren't the things with a bootheel on the Terminators' necks. In fact, Terminators massacre either of them...