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It's a contentious issue.
When Jenner first made the announcement that a petition was created, pointing out that if Jenner was a woman all along as claimed, 'therefore, was in violation of committee rules regarding women competing in men's sports and vice versa. '

Regardless of your level of credence that a Transperson was in fact, born into a body of the opposite gender to their (mind? Soul? life force?), the world of sport generally deals with bodies, and separates men and women along traditionally accepted gender lines for very good, well documented, scientifically verifiable, biological reasons.

MMA has accepted Transwomen (Male to Female transpeople) into their women's league, with entirely predictable results. Fox Fallon went undefeated for three fights, losing the fourth but winning the 5th and 6th- putting Fox 5-1 against biological women.
Fox's current record KO is 39 seconds.

It seems that people who may be prepared to socially accept Transgender people as their preferred gender are not willing to do so in a physical meritocracy such as sport.

I'm...not entirely sure what you're suggesting. She won a medal in a men's event competing with a body that was physically male. Is that a petition in favor of revoking that because she turned out to be transgender and was, therefore, a woman all along?

That's a dumb petition.

It may be a dumb petition, however based on how many trans personnel claim to be a woman or a man in the opposite body it seems like the same argument trans people use. I am not justifying it, but I have always believed equality is not a lopsided seesaw.

However who cares about his gold Medal. Most of us here weren't even alive when she won it. Any magazine can put anyone on any cover because its private business.

Jenner's faults have nothing to do with gender. Killing someone in a carwreck and trying to get away with it seem like a more worth while thing to worry about.

 Gitzbitah wrote:
It seems like sports Illustrated has started trying to be controversial as well. Didn't they feature a plus size model a while back?

You mean Miss Tig-O-Bitties? Yeah. That that was fething awesome! Si, con gusto mucho. SI isn't controvercial so much as they have to be interesting to sell an in-print magazine. It's not like it has rules for the new Forge World terminator captain or anything.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mdlbuildr wrote:


HE won the gold medal. SHE is now wearing it on the cover of a magazine.

In the record books, the name used for the person who won the medal is Bruce Jenner. I am stating fact. Not being bait-y or whatever.

This is THE most troll-bait post in the history of Dakka Dakka.

Mdlbuildr wrote:


Are you implying that now the name should be changed in the record books?

Yes, actually. Cassius Clay's boxing records aren't kept separately from Muhammad Ali. link: http://espn.go.com/classic/s/Ali_record.html

 redleger wrote:
It may be a dumb petition, however based on how many trans personnel claim to be a woman or a man in the opposite body it seems like the same argument trans people use. I am not justifying it, but I have always believed equality is not a lopsided seesaw.

However who cares about his gold Medal. Most of us here weren't even alive when she won it. Any magazine can put anyone on any cover because its private business.

Jenner's faults have nothing to do with gender. Killing someone in a carwreck and trying to get away with it seem like a more worth while thing to worry about.

Yes, that is true, and that's why I get twitchy every time someone starts using her as an excuse to take shots at trans people in general. I don't like defending Caitlyn Jenner, but...

It might seem like a similar argument on the surface, but it really isn't. Male and female events are separated that way because of physical differences; that's something linked to the body. It doesn't matter if someone has a sex change operation later on - when Caitlyn won that medal, she had a male body, competing with other males. Seems like an even playing field to me.

 Spinner wrote:

 redleger wrote:
It may be a dumb petition, however based on how many trans personnel claim to be a woman or a man in the opposite body it seems like the same argument trans people use. I am not justifying it, but I have always believed equality is not a lopsided seesaw.

However who cares about his gold Medal. Most of us here weren't even alive when she won it. Any magazine can put anyone on any cover because its private business.

Jenner's faults have nothing to do with gender. Killing someone in a carwreck and trying to get away with it seem like a more worth while thing to worry about.

Yes, that is true, and that's why I get twitchy every time someone starts using her as an excuse to take shots at trans people in general. I don't like defending Caitlyn Jenner, but...

It might seem like a similar argument on the surface, but it really isn't. Male and female events are separated that way because of physical differences; that's something linked to the body. It doesn't matter if someone has a sex change operation later on - when Caitlyn won that medal, she had a male body, competing with other males. Seems like an even playing field to me.

totally agree. I'm only pointing out that some of the problems with any equal rights movements are arguments that don't truly support equal rights. That is how these types of petitions begin in the first place. Ones mind and body that persons business.. As far as sports go, I see no merit in the petition. He was legally awarded it then, so he gets to keep it. period.

 Buttery Commissar wrote:

Spoiler:

Mdlbuildr wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

Mdlbuildr wrote:

Crystal-Maze wrote:
She won an olympic medal. She's on the cover of Sport's illustrated. She's the most prominent transgender sportsperson in the world.
Using her old name twice seems really bait-y, poor form.

HE won the gold medal. SHE is now wearing it on the cover of a magazine.

In the record books, the name used for the person who won the medal is Bruce Jenner. I am stating fact. Not being bait-y or whatever.

Are you implying that now the name should be changed in the record books?

So now name changes are the grounds on which someone is disqualified to wear the medals they won?

Not just a name change. She won the medal as a male and then lauds it in the front cover of a sports magazine as a female seems a little disingenuous.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Buttery Commissar wrote:

Exam results? Driving license?

The name and sex has to be changed on a driver's license before it is legal to use. See?

All I'm seeing is you deliberately missing my point:

She still knows how to drive.... (ellipsis added)

Questionable. Her driving did lead to two deaths.

 jmurph wrote:

 Buttery Commissar wrote:

Spoiler:

Mdlbuildr wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

Mdlbuildr wrote:

Crystal-Maze wrote:
She won an olympic medal. She's on the cover of Sport's illustrated. She's the most prominent transgender sportsperson in the world.
Using her old name twice seems really bait-y, poor form.

HE won the gold medal. SHE is now wearing it on the cover of a magazine.

In the record books, the name used for the person who won the medal is Bruce Jenner. I am stating fact. Not being bait-y or whatever.

Are you implying that now the name should be changed in the record books?

So now name changes are the grounds on which someone is disqualified to wear the medals they won?

Not just a name change. She won the medal as a male and then lauds it in the front cover of a sports magazine as a female seems a little disingenuous.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Buttery Commissar wrote:

Exam results? Driving license?

The name and sex has to be changed on a driver's license before it is legal to use. See?

All I'm seeing is you deliberately missing my point:

She still knows how to drive.... (ellipsis added)

Questionable. Her driving did lead to two deaths.

Because it wasn't widely covered in the news here, I'd completely forgotten how incredibly inappropriate that example was. Genuinely sorry, there.

Most transgender people shouldn't be referred to by their previous gender pronouns even when discussing before their transition. At least in my experience.

FoWPlayerDeathOfUS.TDs wrote:
Most transgender people shouldn't be referred to by their previous gender pronouns even when discussing before their transition. At least in my experience.

If you're discussing something personal about them prior to transition, its appropriate, but that has been my experience.

Denying your past entirely isn't a sign of a healthy viewpoint IMO. I've yet to meet a transperson that never referred to their previous self-view; they take offense when people do it purposefully trying to belittle and hurt them.

DutchWinsAll wrote:

FoWPlayerDeathOfUS.TDs wrote:
Most transgender people shouldn't be referred to by their previous gender pronouns even when discussing before their transition. At least in my experience.

If you're discussing something personal about them prior to transition, its appropriate, but that has been my experience.

Denying your past entirely isn't a sign of a healthy viewpoint IMO. I've yet to meet a transperson that never referred to their previous self-view; they take offense when people do it purposefully trying to belittle and hurt them.

You should say "she won the award" not "he won the award" unless they tell you otherwise.
You can acknowledge that they used to be a different gender expression.

FoWPlayerDeathOfUS.TDs wrote:

DutchWinsAll wrote:

FoWPlayerDeathOfUS.TDs wrote:
Most transgender people shouldn't be referred to by their previous gender pronouns even when discussing before their transition. At least in my experience.

If you're discussing something personal about them prior to transition, its appropriate, but that has been my experience.

Denying your past entirely isn't a sign of a healthy viewpoint IMO. I've yet to meet a transperson that never referred to their previous self-view; they take offense when people do it purposefully trying to belittle and hurt them.

You should say "she won the award" not "he won the award" unless they tell you otherwise.
You can acknowledge that they used to be a different gender expression.

My experience has led me to believe different, but that's obviously very personal. My girlfriend is a transwoman, and speaks about herself prior to as still being a man.

"She" vs "He" becomes contentious when its used in an obviously derogatory manner, which I think you agree with. But again, my experiences may be different as my girlfriend is kind of unique I think when it comes to issues like this, and I can't help but defer to her opinions.

DutchWinsAll wrote:

FoWPlayerDeathOfUS.TDs wrote:

DutchWinsAll wrote:

FoWPlayerDeathOfUS.TDs wrote:
Most transgender people shouldn't be referred to by their previous gender pronouns even when discussing before their transition. At least in my experience.

If you're discussing something personal about them prior to transition, its appropriate, but that has been my experience.

Denying your past entirely isn't a sign of a healthy viewpoint IMO. I've yet to meet a transperson that never referred to their previous self-view; they take offense when people do it purposefully trying to belittle and hurt them.

You should say "she won the award" not "he won the award" unless they tell you otherwise.
You can acknowledge that they used to be a different gender expression.

My experience has led me to believe different, but that's obviously very personal. My girlfriend is a transwoman, and speaks about herself prior to as still being a man.

"She" vs "He" becomes contentious when its used in an obviously derogatory manner, which I think you agree with. But again, my experiences may be different as my girlfriend is kind of un
ique I think when it comes to issues like this, and I can't help but defer to her opinions.

Probably on the same page it seems.

Caitlyn Jenner and bruce jenner are the exact same legal entity. Just because today she cannot compete in the event, does that not mean she never earned it.

Now there's an interesting question- could she compete in a men's event? Or a woman's event? How does the Olympics go about determining eligibility and gender? I realize it doesn't much matter now because Jenner is way past his prime, but the situation will inevitably arise.

Will we someday have a neutral field?

 Gitzbitah wrote:
Now there's an interesting question- could she compete in a men's event? Or a woman's event? How does the Olympics go about determining eligibility and gender? I realize it doesn't much matter now because Jenner is way past his prime, but the situation will inevitably arise.

Will we someday have a neutral field?

http://espn.go.com/olympics/story/_/id/14626858/olympics-opening-field-competition-transgender-athletes-updated-policy

https://stillmed.olympic.org/Documents/Commissions_PDFfiles/Medical_commission/2015-11_ioc_consensus_meeting_on_sex_reassignment_and_hyperandrogenism-en.pdf

Gitzbitah wrote:Now there's an interesting question- could she compete in a men's event? Or a woman's event? How does the Olympics go about determining eligibility and gender? I realize it doesn't much matter now because Jenner is way past his prime, but the situation will inevitably arise.

Will we someday have a neutral field?

This point was raised here, by Angel:

=Angel= wrote:It's a contentious issue.
When Jenner first made the announcement that a petition was created, pointing out that if Jenner was a woman all along as claimed, 'therefore, was in violation of committee rules regarding women competing in men's sports and vice versa. '

Regardless of your level of credence that a Transperson was in fact, born into a body of the opposite gender to their (mind? Soul? life force?), the world of sport generally deals with bodies, and separates men and women along traditionally accepted gender lines for very good, well documented, scientifically verifiable, biological reasons.

MMA has accepted Transwomen (Male to Female transpeople) into their women's league, with entirely predictable results. Fox Fallon went undefeated for three fights, losing the fourth but winning the 5th and 6th- putting Fox 5-1 against biological women.
Fox's current record KO is 39 seconds.

It seems that people who may be prepared to socially accept Transgender people as their preferred gender are not willing to do so in a physical meritocracy such as sport.

I'm resistant to the idea of trans-women competing vs cis-women. There is an undeniable physical advantage to going through puberty as a male.

Are there trans-men competing in cis-men sports?

 feeder wrote:

Gitzbitah wrote:Now there's an interesting question- could she compete in a men's event? Or a woman's event? How does the Olympics go about determining eligibility and gender? I realize it doesn't much matter now because Jenner is way past his prime, but the situation will inevitably arise.

Will we someday have a neutral field?

This point was raised here, by Angel:

=Angel= wrote:It's a contentious issue.
When Jenner first made the announcement that a petition was created, pointing out that if Jenner was a woman all along as claimed, 'therefore, was in violation of committee rules regarding women competing in men's sports and vice versa. '

Regardless of your level of credence that a Transperson was in fact, born into a body of the opposite gender to their (mind? Soul? life force?), the world of sport generally deals with bodies, and separates men and women along traditionally accepted gender lines for very good, well documented, scientifically verifiable, biological reasons.

MMA has accepted Transwomen (Male to Female transpeople) into their women's league, with entirely predictable results. Fox Fallon went undefeated for three fights, losing the fourth but winning the 5th and 6th- putting Fox 5-1 against biological women.
Fox's current record KO is 39 seconds.

It seems that people who may be prepared to socially accept Transgender people as their preferred gender are not willing to do so in a physical meritocracy such as sport.

I'm resistant to the idea of trans-women competing vs cis-women. There is an undeniable physical advantage to going through puberty as a male.

Are there trans-men competing in cis-men sports?

Yes.

http://espn.go.com/sports/endurance/story/_/id/15976460/chris-mosier-becomes-first-known-transgender-athlete-compete-world-duathlon-championship

AVILES, Spain -- Chris Mosier of Team USA made sports history Sunday by becoming the first out transgender athlete to compete in an International Triathlon Union championship when he ran and biked in the world duathlon championship.

Competing with the age 35-39 men's group sprint, Mosier, 35, finished 144th among 434 competitors across all ages with an unofficial time of 1:06:29. He finished 26th among the 47 men in the age 35-39 group and second among the U.S. men in his group.

Prestor Jon wrote:

 feeder wrote:

I'm resistant to the idea of trans-women competing vs cis-women. There is an undeniable physical advantage to going through puberty as a male.

Are there trans-men competing in cis-men sports?

Yes.

http://espn.go.com/sports/endurance/story/_/id/15976460/chris-mosier-becomes-first-known-transgender-athlete-compete-world-duathlon-championship

AVILES, Spain -- Chris Mosier of Team USA made sports history Sunday by becoming the first out transgender athlete to compete in an International Triathlon Union championship when he ran and biked in the world duathlon championship.

Competing with the age 35-39 men's group sprint, Mosier, 35, finished 144th among 434 competitors across all ages with an unofficial time of 1:06:29. He finished 26th among the 47 men in the age 35-39 group and second among the U.S. men in his group.

Interesting, thanks. Finishing in the top 1/3rd is nothing to be ashamed of.