Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Traditio wrote:

MarsNZ wrote:Wyverns aren't pie plates,

Ok, ok. They fire 4 clumped up small blasts.

While ignoring line of sight. At 48 inch range.

Do you really want to quibble over terminology?

Yes. You made the claim it was a pie plate, yet can only kill a maximum of 4 guys if you spread out right and doesn't scatter, and it gets past your armour, or passes a 4+ rerollable to Wound. Hardly game breaking. It's hurts hordes far more than your marines.

Besides, TFC get the same, AND a Techmarine alongside. Is that OP?

LRBT needs LOS

This isn't a weakness. This isn't a drawback. The fact that you need line of sight doesn't somehow make the S8, AP 3, 72 inch range large blast somehow something else.

Actually, yes it does. Without LOS, it can't shoot a unit that is behind entire buildings. Instead, it needs to move into LOS, moving pretty damn slow, and cannot fire any other guns if it does so. It's a worse Basilisk.

Manticore is AP4.

S10, up to 120 inch range and ignoring line of sight. 5 inch blast, and you get D3 shots.

I mean, yes, it can't make vehicles explode. But again, that's not a drawback or a weakness.

It inherently is. If it COULD make vehicles explode, then it is better by definition.
Against Space Marines, it's not exceptional at all. AP4 hamstrings that, and given the limited ammo, it becomes useless after the fourth (?) turn if you've repeatedly fired with it.

All except the LRBT have comparable armour to a Rhino and many are open topped.

Basilisk is the only IG unit that fits all your criteria, it has a minimum range and is open-topped

What the feth does it matter? It's not like they are going to be advancing or even will be out in the open. They are going to be parked well out of line of sight, probably underneath a rock or behind a building somewhere.

If I can see your manticore or wyvern to shoot at it, it's because something has gone horribly wrong for you.

I can say likewise - if you've positioned your men in such a way that a small blast can hit more than one guy without scatter, you've done something wrong.

And regardless of where the IG player has camped it, you have all manner of Outflanking Troops and Drop Pods to root them out, and that's assuming you aren't a competent general and moved a unit to where they can shoot it with grav/melta weaponry.

If you can't beat that with the most DS happy army in the game then I don't know what to tell you/

Funny, I was under the impression it's Codex: Space Marines.

But for some reason, IG players seem to be under the impression that the cover of the book says Codex: Drop Pods, and practically everyone else seems to be under the impression that the cover of the book says Codex: Gravcannons.

How very strange.

Well, you seem to think that IG players only bring LRBTs and artillery tanks. Works both ways.

You cannot deny that SM are the best army for Deep Striking - you may not do it, but you have the option to. It's not attacking your own army (because frankly, it doesn't seem to last long under relatively tame lists), but rather acknowledging the fact that you do have easy access to tools that would help you.

 Traditio wrote:

MarsNZ wrote:Wyverns aren't pie plates,

Ok, ok. They fire 4 clumped up small blasts.

While ignoring line of sight. At 48 inch range.

Do you really want to quibble over terminology?

And they are S4 AP6. Hurray?

LRBT needs LOS

This isn't a weakness. This isn't a drawback. The fact that you need line of sight doesn't somehow make the S8, AP 3, 72 inch range large blast somehow something else.

Yes, it is. It means that the LRBT is an inferior version of a basilisk. A unit that's already terrible. It's a terrible version of a terrible unit.

Manticore is AP4.

S10, up to 120 inch range and ignoring line of sight. 5 inch blast, and you get D3 shots.

I mean, yes, it can't make vehicles explode. But again, that's not a drawback or a weakness.

Yes, actually it is. It's one of the biggest drawbacks to the manticore since it just means it does a hullpoint or two to any vehicle worth shooting and maybe a stun. And most units have a litany of saves against it because it lacks ignores cover and AP3 or better. So, the Manticore is an overblown hullpoint plinker and a gakky infantry killer. It pretty much requires a bunch of light infantry to be clumped together out in the open to be effective.

All except the LRBT have comparable armour to a Rhino and many are open topped.

Basilisk is the only IG unit that fits all your criteria, it has a minimum range and is open-topped

What the feth does it matter? It's not like they are going to be advancing or even will be out in the open. They are going to be parked well out of line of sight, probably underneath a rock or behind a building somewhere.

If I can see your manticore or wyvern to shoot at it, it's because something has gone horribly wrong for you.

It means that they are easily stun-locked and killed. Most armies can shut down basilisks and the like very easily due to the way snap-shots work. Any penetrating hit has a 83.33% chance of shutting the gun up and, with it's weak side armor, that is actually easy to do.

If you can't beat that with the most DS happy army in the game then I don't know what to tell you/

Funny, I was under the impression it's Codex: Space Marines.

But for some reason, IG players seem to be under the impression that the cover of the book says Codex: Drop Pods, and practically everyone else seems to be under the impression that the cover of the book says Codex: Gravcannons.

How very strange.

pm713 wrote:AP4 is a drawback. Anything with 3+ armour will just laugh at the AP4.

No, AP 4 isn't a drawback. Yes, it permits 3+ or better armor saves. But that's not a drawback any more than AP5 on a bolter is a drawback. It's simply not an additional benefit that IG players have for that model.

That's a sizeable assumption about terrain.

Not really. If you're following the traditional GW guidelines on terrain, it's not that difficult. That said, we've had this discussion before, and I really don't feel like retreading that ground.

Plus if you're out of LOS your accuracy goes out the window.

Because there totally won't be psykers in that army. And no IG player would ever dream of interpreting the rules so as to allow prescience to re-roll scatter dice.

So you have a counter and refuse to use it? How typical.

What you're essentially telling me is that there is one and precisely one viable army concept in the SM codex. I take issue with that.

BA can counter this approach a few ways, so I know for sure that vanilla marines can.

Note that all these weapons bounce off chapter master smashfether.

Martel732 wrote:
BA can counter this approach a few ways, so I know for sure that vanilla marines can.

Note that all these weapons bounce off chapter master smashfether.

For what it's worth:

I wish to point out that all of the responses to my assertion that IG has OP builds is:

"You can beat it if you run a cheesy army. Why aren't you spamming more cheese?"

If I have to spam cheese to beat it, it's cheese and OP.

That's a truism.

 Traditio wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
BA can counter this approach a few ways, so I know for sure that vanilla marines can.

Note that all these weapons bounce off chapter master smashfether.

For what it's worth:

I wish to point out that all of the responses to my assertion that IG has OP builds is:

"You can beat it if you run a cheesy army. Why aren't you spamming more cheese?"

If I have to spam cheese to beat it, it's cheese and OP.

That's a truism.

I can beat it by fielding Rhinos and drop pods. Rhinos and drop pods I pay for, mind you. Will I always beat it? No. But I can.

 Traditio wrote:

pm713 wrote:AP4 is a drawback. Anything with 3+ armour will just laugh at the AP4.

No, AP 4 isn't a drawback. Yes, it permits 3+ or better armor saves. But that's not a drawback any more than AP5 on a bolter is a drawback. It's simply not an additional benefit that IG players have for that model.

What? Does it *need* to have a drawback? I suppose you'd hate on Tau plasma rifles because they have AP2 without Gets Hot too? Or on Sternguard Hellfire or Kraken Rounds because it only gets better than a standard bolter?

AP4 is a drawback because it limits it's effective targets.

That's a sizeable assumption about terrain.

Not really. If you're following the traditional GW guidelines on terrain, it's not that difficult. That said, we've had this discussion before, and I really don't feel like retreading that ground.

Again - guideline. Not rule. I deploy terrain how I see fit, or as the table permits.

Plus if you're out of LOS your accuracy goes out the window.

Because there totally won't be psykers in that army. And no IG player would ever dream of interpreting the rules so as to allow prescience to re-roll scatter dice.

Yes. Absolutely. My IG army has no psykers, and therefore never uses Prescience.

I still have no accurate non-LOS shooting.

So you have a counter and refuse to use it? How typical.

What you're essentially telling me is that there is one and precisely one viable army concept in the SM codex. I take issue with that.

No, I believe this means more "There is a certain combination that would make your battles easier, yet you won't do it."

It's like trying to scrub a patio with a toothbrush, rather than an yard brush, and complaining that the toothbrush takes longer than the yard brush.

I might also add that any triple stormraven list probably destroys this build as well.

 Traditio wrote:

pm713 wrote:AP4 is a drawback. Anything with 3+ armour will just laugh at the AP4.

No, AP 4 isn't a drawback. Yes, it permits 3+ or better armor saves. But that's not a drawback any more than AP5 on a bolter is a drawback. It's simply not an additional benefit that IG players have for that model.

Both are widely considered draw backs of their respective weapons. Lack of AP3 means most commonly used units will get saves against those weapons. There's a pretty good reason people don't spam bolter marines.

That's a sizeable assumption about terrain.

Not really. If you're following the traditional GW guidelines on terrain, it's not that difficult. That said, we've had this discussion before, and I really don't feel like retreading that ground.

Not everyone does. That's not a helpful answer.

Plus if you're out of LOS your accuracy goes out the window.

Because there totally won't be psykers in that army. And no IG player would ever dream of interpreting the rules so as to allow prescience to re-roll scatter dice.

Oh, so now the IG players are the one who automatically should have x unit in their army? I thought they were playing Codex: Imperial Guard not Codex: Primaris Psykers or Codex: Blast Templates.

So you have a counter and refuse to use it? How typical.

What you're essentially telling me is that there is one and precisely one viable army concept in the SM codex. I take issue with that.

Ultimately, quibbling over stats aside, IG pieplates aren't really scaring anyone. You don't see IG armies of any kind getting any higher than the middle of the pack (at best) in any large tournament (and usually mostly lumped in the bottom half of finishers), and even in casual games nobody is quaking in their boots at IG artillery.

IG artillery isn't all that impressive anymore. Other armies can bring similar, or superior, firepower to bear with far better support abilities, and do it while having greater overall army mobility and resiliency.

 Traditio wrote:

pm713 wrote:AP4 is a drawback. Anything with 3+ armour will just laugh at the AP4.

No, AP 4 isn't a drawback. Yes, it permits 3+ or better armor saves. But that's not a drawback any more than AP5 on a bolter is a drawback. It's simply not an additional benefit that IG players have for that model.

That's a sizeable assumption about terrain.

Not really. If you're following the traditional GW guidelines on terrain, it's not that difficult. That said, we've had this discussion before, and I really don't feel like retreading that ground.

Plus if you're out of LOS your accuracy goes out the window.

Because there totally won't be psykers in that army. And no IG player would ever dream of interpreting the rules so as to allow prescience to re-roll scatter dice.

So you have a counter and refuse to use it? How typical.

What you're essentially telling me is that there is one and precisely one viable army concept in the SM codex. I take issue with that.

Perhaps drawback is the wrong word. It is not a good thing considering that a lot of units don't care about it. To list some we have: All non Scout marines, SOB, Scorpions, Reapers, Shining Spears, Almost all MC's, Crisis Suits, Broadsides, Ghostkeels and more. Hardly great.

Define the GW guideline. As I recall last time you plucked a random rule from 4th. That's before we bring up the idea of something else being in the cover.

Because psychic powers are SO reliable and there wouldn't be anything else that would benefit more from prescience. Plus it sounds a little like you want to bend the rules there but I'm not familiar enough with the wording of blasts and prescience to say.

Not at all. There are several ways of playing Space Marines. What I'm saying is that you have a counter to a problem and ignoring it while whining. Allow me to make a comparison. My armies generally don't include much if any AA. This means that if I fight a flyer such as a Heldrake then it can do what it likes. What you are doing is complaining your army doesn't have an AA option when the reality is you're simply choosing not to use it.

 Traditio wrote:


snip

I love your delusion that IG are OP as feth, despite all evidence to the contrary. The only IG arty that's decent would be the earthshaker... assuming it didn't have a 36" minimum range or the LRBT if it wasn't ordnance. Now, that being said, it's fairly easy to bring most other lists from other codex down to their level (i.e., using devs/ASM instead of centurions, TFCs or a gladius)

 Wolfblade wrote:

 Traditio wrote:


snip

I love your delusion that IG are OP as feth, despite all evidence to the contrary. Now, that being said, it's fairly easy to bring most other lists from other codex down to their level (i.e., using devs/ASM instead of centurions, TFCs or a gladius)

It's super easy with marines. All of the canonical units now suck.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Ultimately, quibbling over stats aside, IG pieplates aren't really scaring anyone. You don't see IG armies of any kind getting any higher than the middle of the pack (at best) in any large tournament (and usually mostly lumped in the bottom half of finishers), and even in casual games nobody is quaking in their boots at IG artillery.

IG artillery isn't all that impressive anymore. Other armies can bring similar, or superior, firepower to bear with far better support abilities, and do it while having greater overall army mobility and resiliency.

So let's get this straight. There are people who go to large tournaments. Large tournaments where people spam the most broken gak that their codex has to offer.

And IG get "middle of the pack"?

Yes, IG have less OP, cheesy gak than other codices. But more than others. And given the fact that they are able to half-compete at all in a tournament (where pretty much only cheesy, OP gak is even an option), yes, I stand by my initial assertion: certain IG builds can be OP.

In fact, what you just said is literally a proof of it. If there were not OP IG builds, then they would not be able to even half-compete at large tournaments.

Yes, other codices have more OP builds.

But that doesn't take away the fact that IG has such builds also.

 Traditio wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Ultimately, quibbling over stats aside, IG pieplates aren't really scaring anyone. You don't see IG armies of any kind getting any higher than the middle of the pack (at best) in any large tournament (and usually mostly lumped in the bottom half of finishers), and even in casual games nobody is quaking in their boots at IG artillery.

IG artillery isn't all that impressive anymore. Other armies can bring similar, or superior, firepower to bear with far better support abilities, and do it while having greater overall army mobility and resiliency.

So let's get this straight. There are people who go to large tournaments. Large tournaments where people spam the most broken gak that their army has to offer.

And IG get "middle of the pack"?

Yes, IG have less OP, cheesy gak than other codices. But more than others. And given the fact that they are able to half-compete at all in a tournament (where pretty much only cheesy, OP gak is even an option), yes, I stand by my initial assertion: certain IG builds can be OP.

In fact, what you just said is literally a proof of it. If there were not OP IG builds, then they would not be able to even half-compete at large tournaments.

Yes, other codices have more OP builds.

But that doesn't take away the fact that IG has such builds also.

Care to give an actual example of such a list?

 Traditio wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Ultimately, quibbling over stats aside, IG pieplates aren't really scaring anyone. You don't see IG armies of any kind getting any higher than the middle of the pack (at best) in any large tournament (and usually mostly lumped in the bottom half of finishers), and even in casual games nobody is quaking in their boots at IG artillery.

IG artillery isn't all that impressive anymore. Other armies can bring similar, or superior, firepower to bear with far better support abilities, and do it while having greater overall army mobility and resiliency.

So let's get this straight. There are people who go to large tournaments. Large tournaments where people spam the most broken gak that their codex has to offer.

And IG get "middle of the pack"?

Note I said, "at best" and "usually mostly lumped in the bottom half of finishers".

Yes, IG have less OP, cheesy gak than other codices. But more than others. And given the fact that they are able to half-compete at all in a tournament (where pretty much only cheesy, OP gak is even an option), yes, I stand by my initial assertion: certain IG builds can be OP.

Only if you're deploying infantry in the open and clumped up, in which case most armies will seem OP.

In fact, what you just said is literally a proof of it. If there were not OP IG builds, then they would not be able to even half-compete at large tournaments.

If by "half-compete" you mean "might get a couple finishers in the top *half* out of 180 players". Looking at Adepticon, out of 180 players for the Championship qualifiers, the Highest placing for an IG army was...43. Out of the whole thing, only 2 IG armies were even in the top half with the bulk of IG armies placing below the top 50%. None made it anywhere near the Finals. That 43rd place finish is about the highest an IG army has made in recent memor. The LVO had a similar spread, with a top IG placing of 104th of 298 with the great majority below the top 50%.

Yes, other codices have more OP builds.

But that doesn't take away the fact that IG has such builds also.

Not according to any tournament results. If you're bringing a poorly built and deployed army and lose first turn, then sure IG can probably hammer that into dust, but then just about anything will seem OP at that point.

There's zero data to support the idea that IG have anything "OP" outside such circumstances. They have some stuff that isn't completely worthless, but that's not the same thing as being "OP".

One will notice that the top-end armies aren't using lots of blasts and pieplates, and what few they do use are on significantly different platforms with much better support than what IG bring. Pieplate spam just is not that functional in 7E. Raw rate of fire weapons matter a whole lot more.

 Traditio wrote:
So let's get this straight. There are people who go to large tournaments. Large tournaments where people spam the most broken gak that their codex has to offer.

And IG get "middle of the pack"?

Yeah. Behind SM, Eldar, Tau etc armies. Duh. Of course worse army is going to perform better. It's not total crap codex like CSM or orks but it's hardly good. Ergo middle of the pack. On a good day.

Not OP, not total crap. Sounds pretty good definition of middle.

IG are not OP. And that's coming from someone with an inferior codex. Please stop trying to push that idea.

Martel732 wrote:
IG are not OP. And that's coming from someone with an inferior codex. Please stop trying to push that idea.

I agree.

Back on to the Eldar Issue

As for grav and CM Smash, I only started bringing them when all 3 of my local eldar players started bringing scattbike+WK spam. The turning point was the "friendly" game where I asked the third player who I know has things other than WK+scattbike and I asked him to bring a list that didn't have them and I would bring a grav free list (since he loathes grav). At this time all I had was a few bike squads with grav in them to deal with mcs in a general sense (still don't have any grav cents). What does he bring to the game? Scattbikes and 4 WK. Something like this has happened more than once against the local eldar players as well as other eldar players. I have gotten sick of eldar and their scattbike+WK spam. It has gotten to the point I WON'T play against any eldar player. I don't trust them. As far as grav and smash goes, until I get IH back the way they are supposed to be with our Iron Fathers ect, I refuse to give up smash and grav. It is all I really have, and I do like to actually have a chance at winning. Our new formation/detachment doesn't help any either. Turns out having objective secured is just flat out better most of the time.

On a side note, it is really annoying to have a Eldar player complain about your IK army/list when he is bringing 3 to 4+ WK every freaking game. You have the single most absolutely broken GMC/SHV in the game and you are going to complain about my 4 or 5 IK that your WK+scattbike spam can table first turn if I give them a chance. REALLY?

@NorseSig while I can see the frustration with those players, please don't tar us all with the same brush! I've had eldar for years and I own one wraithknight and no scatter bikes. The Wraithknight has been used once, as I just wanted to make the model more than stomp face every game. I've had some really fun, even games even with CSM because I play fluffy and fun lists.

You can't tell me that a guardian battlehost with melee aspect shrines and an Avatar of khaine is OP!

It is all about the players, not the army. I'd wholeheartedly support you not playing those guys again, they seem like the WAAC types. But don't let them ruin it for the rest of us!

NG77 wrote:
@NorseSig while I can see the frustration with those players, please don't tar us all with the same brush! I've had eldar for years and I own one wraithknight and no scatter bikes. The Wraithknight has been used once, as I just wanted to make the model more than stomp face every game. I've had some really fun, even games even with CSM because I play fluffy and fun lists.

You can't tell me that a guardian battlehost with melee aspect shrines and an Avatar of khaine is OP!

It is all about the players, not the army. I'd wholeheartedly support you not playing those guys again, they seem like the WAAC types. But don't let them ruin it for the rest of us!

I have yet to play against, or even see, a list even remotely like this.

 Traditio wrote:

NG77 wrote:
@NorseSig while I can see the frustration with those players, please don't tar us all with the same brush! I've had eldar for years and I own one wraithknight and no scatter bikes. The Wraithknight has been used once, as I just wanted to make the model more than stomp face every game. I've had some really fun, even games even with CSM because I play fluffy and fun lists.

You can't tell me that a guardian battlehost with melee aspect shrines and an Avatar of khaine is OP!

It is all about the players, not the army. I'd wholeheartedly support you not playing those guys again, they seem like the WAAC types. But don't let them ruin it for the rest of us!

I have yet to play against, or even see, a list even remotely like this.

That's a shame. The best thing about Eldar being a powerful codex is that I can take the units I like while having a few powerful ones to do work as required.

You can really have some fun with the Eldar codex, min maxing and spam wastes all that. Most of my lists revolve around aspect warriors, I'm a biel tan fluff bunny, and my lists reflect that.

Admittedly I avoid playing in stores etc, I play with people I know and we set up our games in advance, with agreed upon levels of power, scenarios etc.

 Traditio wrote:

NG77 wrote:
@NorseSig while I can see the frustration with those players, please don't tar us all with the same brush! I've had eldar for years and I own one wraithknight and no scatter bikes. The Wraithknight has been used once, as I just wanted to make the model more than stomp face every game. I've had some really fun, even games even with CSM because I play fluffy and fun lists.

You can't tell me that a guardian battlehost with melee aspect shrines and an Avatar of khaine is OP!

It is all about the players, not the army. I'd wholeheartedly support you not playing those guys again, they seem like the WAAC types. But don't let them ruin it for the rest of us!

I have yet to play against, or even see, a list even remotely like this.

Well that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I've never seen one of your OP IG lists. Yet apparently they exist.

pm713 wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

NG77 wrote:
@NorseSig while I can see the frustration with those players, please don't tar us all with the same brush! I've had eldar for years and I own one wraithknight and no scatter bikes. The Wraithknight has been used once, as I just wanted to make the model more than stomp face every game. I've had some really fun, even games even with CSM because I play fluffy and fun lists.

You can't tell me that a guardian battlehost with melee aspect shrines and an Avatar of khaine is OP!

It is all about the players, not the army. I'd wholeheartedly support you not playing those guys again, they seem like the WAAC types. But don't let them ruin it for the rest of us!

I have yet to play against, or even see, a list even remotely like this.

Well that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I've never seen one of your OP IG lists. Yet apparently they exist.

I'm guessing something "OP" Would be ~9 LRBTs/Wyverns/Basilisks, 2-3 maxed out guard blobs, and/or some vendettas with melta/plas vets. (which is only "OP" if you only take some MLs w/ Flakk as your only dedicated AT)

 Wolfblade wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

NG77 wrote:
@NorseSig while I can see the frustration with those players, please don't tar us all with the same brush! I've had eldar for years and I own one wraithknight and no scatter bikes. The Wraithknight has been used once, as I just wanted to make the model more than stomp face every game. I've had some really fun, even games even with CSM because I play fluffy and fun lists.

You can't tell me that a guardian battlehost with melee aspect shrines and an Avatar of khaine is OP!

It is all about the players, not the army. I'd wholeheartedly support you not playing those guys again, they seem like the WAAC types. But don't let them ruin it for the rest of us!

I have yet to play against, or even see, a list even remotely like this.

Well that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I've never seen one of your OP IG lists. Yet apparently they exist.

I'm guessing something "OP" Would be ~9 LRBTs/Wyverns/Basilisks, 2-3 maxed out guard blobs, and some vendettas with melta/plas vets. (which is only "OP" if you only take some MLs w/ Flakk as your only dedicated AT)

If you could fit that in at anything less than 3K.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

NG77 wrote:
@NorseSig while I can see the frustration with those players, please don't tar us all with the same brush! I've had eldar for years and I own one wraithknight and no scatter bikes. The Wraithknight has been used once, as I just wanted to make the model more than stomp face every game. I've had some really fun, even games even with CSM because I play fluffy and fun lists.

You can't tell me that a guardian battlehost with melee aspect shrines and an Avatar of khaine is OP!

It is all about the players, not the army. I'd wholeheartedly support you not playing those guys again, they seem like the WAAC types. But don't let them ruin it for the rest of us!

I have yet to play against, or even see, a list even remotely like this.

Well that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I've never seen one of your OP IG lists. Yet apparently they exist.

I'm guessing something "OP" Would be ~9 LRBTs/Wyverns/Basilisks, 2-3 maxed out guard blobs, and some vendettas with melta/plas vets. (which is only "OP" if you only take some MLs w/ Flakk as your only dedicated AT)

If you could fit that in at anything less than 3K.

Sorry, should have put an "and/or" in there, my bad.

I know one player who would outright refuse a game at any points level with Eldar. Personally, I would love to play against the Eldar, but there aren't many players who play them anyway.

The hate for Tau being overpowered is, whilst not unreasonable, is too much. Luckily, I find many people at my FLGS that want to play against me as they want to be able to use a list that they have never used.

My FLGS *kind of* has a ban. It's more of a restriction but it means you can't play a pure IK army. At their events, each player is only allowed up to one SHV/GMC. There's also a limit on the points cost for that one shv/gmc, which varies depending on the points level for the event.

Events below 1500 points are not allowed shv/gmc at all, 95% of the time.

BossJakadakk wrote:
My FLGS *kind of* has a ban. It's more of a restriction but it means you can't play a pure IK army. At their events, each player is only allowed up to one SHV/GMC. There's also a limit on the points cost for that one shv/gmc, which varies depending on the points level for the event.

Events below 1500 points are not allowed shv/gmc at all, 95% of the time.

Similar users have also said such things. Whilst it is frowned upon to use such lists in my FLGS, it has been known for people to do it. In fact, one of my last matches was 2000 points: Tau allied with Chaos vs IK and SM. Needless to say, the IK won.

I know some people at my LFGS who play tournament lists with Eldar and Tau are struggling to get games, as few people are even vaguely interested in playing against that. I would play them, but I play cultist hordes and CSMs, so I'm not even tournament practice for them.

With regards to IG being overpowered, they're the rock to footslogging MEQ's scissors, especially MEQs on 25mm bases. Put them in drop pods and rhinos, e.g. a GSF, and they maul any IG list, especially in Maelstrom missions.