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MolonLabe wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

MolonLabe wrote:
Hold on a second. Keep in mind that some of the games you are talking about are not ever sold here. Mini war gaming is far more popular across Europe than it is in America so we don't get a lot of the games you get there. Yes you can play D&D for free if you use the PDF downloads. I can also find the 40K rules in PDF here and then I can supplement bottle caps and poker chips for space marines and orks if I wanted. If you're going to get into a hobby don't be a cheap skate.

Not many games are sold in Finland either. You do know there's this thing called "post"? I can get miniatures from USA companies. Is USA really so backwater that they cannot get stuff from europe?

.

Yeah, we're totally backwater dude, that must be it. What a chode.

Well if you can't buy games from companies not in USA...I can buy games not sold in Europe. What's stopping you from doing the reverse?

"Not sold here" ain't excuse. Doesn't stop me. Am I stealing them out of thin air then?

 oldzoggy wrote:

MolonLabe wrote:

Hold on a second. Keep in mind that some of the games you are talking about are not ever sold here. Mini war gaming is far more popular across Europe than it is in America so we don't get a lot of the games you get there. Yes you can play D&D for free if you use the PDF downloads. I can also find the 40K rules in PDF here and then I can supplement bottle caps and poker chips for space marines and orks if I wanted. If you're going to get into a hobby don't be a cheap skate.

We are not talking about piracy. Just legitimate free rules. That are in many ways superior to books. Books don't have contrl F functions like the digital options have nor do they have all sorts of smart filters, automated NPC and treasure generators or all sorts of other modern ideas

DND: 3.5 : http://www.d20srd.org/

Pathfinder: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/

you see totally free

But even the example of the Rogue trader RPG you really only need that one book. Half of the book is even GM only. In DND terms it is the Player book, the DM guide and the campaign setting book in one, this isn't uncommon in non DND RPG core books.

Oh yes, I'm aware of how Rouge Trader rules work. We played Dark Heresy and it's laid out the same way. Again, I could just buy a $30 box of Space Marines and play using this same logic as one book for the whole group, one set of dice for the whole group etc etc. I can just show up with my tactical squad and rely on everyone else in the group for the rest of the stuff I need. Doesn't really work.

Or if you are into the classics you could go on ebay and buy the darksun box set (one of the best DND RPG settings ever made) for $60
http://www.ebay.nl/itm/Advanced-Dungeons-and-Dragons-Edition-Dark-Sun-darksun-Box-Set-/262538419941?hash=item3d20825ee5:g:5FUAAOSwRgJXh80F

tneva82 wrote:

MolonLabe wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

MolonLabe wrote:
Hold on a second. Keep in mind that some of the games you are talking about are not ever sold here. Mini war gaming is far more popular across Europe than it is in America so we don't get a lot of the games you get there. Yes you can play D&D for free if you use the PDF downloads. I can also find the 40K rules in PDF here and then I can supplement bottle caps and poker chips for space marines and orks if I wanted. If you're going to get into a hobby don't be a cheap skate.

Not many games are sold in Finland either. You do know there's this thing called "post"? I can get miniatures from USA companies. Is USA really so backwater that they cannot get stuff from europe?

.

Yeah, we're totally backwater dude, that must be it. What a chode.

Well if you can't buy games from companies not in USA...I can buy games not sold in Europe. What's stopping you from doing the reverse?

"Not sold here" ain't excuse. Doesn't stop me. Am I stealing them out of thin air then?

Because they are European based games they are rarely ever played here so you're talking about games that I have never played or heard of by virtue of the fact that nobody here plays them even though yes we can order them. People tend to play what others in their area are playing. As a result you aren't going to find Americans playing a game that is popular across Europe because they won't have any other players here to game with. Keep in mind that miniature war gaming is far more widespread and popular there where as here in the US it's pretty much WarHammer, WarMachine, some Infinity and Flames of War and that's about all aside from Xwing or Armada.

MolonLabe wrote:
Again, I could just buy a $30 box of Space Marines and play using this same logic as one book for the whole group, one set of dice for the whole group etc etc. I can just show up with my tactical squad and rely on everyone else in the group for the rest of the stuff I need. Doesn't really work.

Except that isn't comparable at all. If you buy one copy of the RPG book (and $5 worth of dice) for the whole group then you have everything you need to play. The book only comes out if someone says "hey, what's that rule again?" and you briefly look something up, having each player have a book sitting there collecting dust adds nothing to the game experience. But showing up with just your one tactical squad means you probably aren't going to have a game at all, and even if you somehow find someone to loan you the rest of an army you miss all of the customization parts of 40k.

The recurring theme here is that you "prove" that 40k isn't too expensive by stripping down the 40k purchases to absurd unrealistic levels and fluffing out the alternative hobby with a bunch of luxury spending. That's dishonest, and is rapidly demonstrating that you're way more interested in "proving" that 40k is cheap than in having a constructive discussion about the cost of hobbies.

MolonLabe wrote:

Oh yes, I'm aware of how Rouge Trader rules work. We played Dark Heresy and it's laid out the same way. Again, I could just buy a $30 box of Space Marines and play using this same logic as one book for the whole group, one set of dice for the whole group etc etc. I can just show up with my tactical squad and rely on everyone else in the group for the rest of the stuff I need. Doesn't really work.

Tactical squad doesn't provide infinite amount of hours(well okay there's limit. your life span). RPG rules do.

You don't seriously claim you need to buy premade campaigns to play RPG? What a poor imagination your group has then...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:
Except that isn't comparable at all. If you buy one copy of the RPG book (and $5 worth of dice) for the whole group then you have everything you need to play. The book only comes out if someone says "hey, what's that rule again?" and you briefly look something up,

And even in those it's often better and faster for GM to simply say how it goes...

GM trumps rulebook. 100% times.

Tabletop IS expensive in general, but 40k shine through being, if not the MOST expensive, one of them.

I might agree as far as getting started but unde the condition you start trhough my so beloved second hand market and share the supplies buying with a fellow. Otherwise, well, just take a look at it and what do oyu see? Bundles with 0 euros, dollars, pounds or whatever you want, a rulebook divided in three to have you believe you had a great deal for 2 you didn't need at all and a single one out of those going to serv.

Then take a look at the minis: they do are expensive! when I draw a comparison with Warlord Games who sells you a légal infantry platoon composed of at least 25 infantry models at barely 30 euros, I mean, how easy it is to get that here's a problem with GW's pricing! You can argue GW's are buy far better designed but it's wrong. The differenc as far as quality is neglictable, i'd even add that their tank are far better detailed!! And still they do remain way cheaper.

Even the books related are cheaper: the rulebook is Worth like 30 euros ad includes four army lists allowing you to play UK, USA, Germany or USSR without buying any further book! [color=black] And even if you buy them, they're barely Worth 15 euros whereas a 40k codex is at least 33!!

Those who frequently ome across me have noticed it, i can't help drawing this W-comparison between warlord a games, and I effectivly do because it's the evidence it IS possible not to fool your customers. And if I had to mentally tell what I've sunk in 40K and Bolt Action, I'd ay like 300 euros for the first one Under the conditions I already have quoted above, needless to say it's far worst than the 170 euros I've given to Bolt Action...

But as Accept has sung, It just ain't over yet! No only is it more expensive but the rest of GW m 's behavor just seems not to make the game any Worth what you gave it. Imbalanced, no brain, that's what they nowadays are doing my good sir!

My view is that the game is fairly doing in agony if that isn't already achieved. The universe and atmosphere duriong casual games is what got m in, and I still really enjoy a game, still really enjoy having a talk at the fluff, but I as well can have great entairntment playing this awesome BA and talking about WW2. You see? I can find the same greatness and points in laods of other and what you pay for getting involved in tabletop s priced after how much to achieve it. An according to this, 40k is too expensive as a game and deserves no defence but that we turn to Something else when it comes to spending our money. [color=black]

To conclude, I support oldzoggy point of view when he says that it's more revealing a happy rich state of mind than a real in depth and fact-based thought.

Nothing personnal, just up in arms against such kind of behavor and fact-negasionism.

tneva82 wrote:

MolonLabe wrote:

Oh yes, I'm aware of how Rouge Trader rules work. We played Dark Heresy and it's laid out the same way. Again, I could just buy a $30 box of Space Marines and play using this same logic as one book for the whole group, one set of dice for the whole group etc etc. I can just show up with my tactical squad and rely on everyone else in the group for the rest of the stuff I need. Doesn't really work.

Tactical squad doesn't provide infinite amount of hours(well okay there's limit. your life span). RPG rules do.

You don't seriously claim you need to buy premade campaigns to play RPG? What a poor imagination your group has then...
.

Do they even make adventure modules for the Fantasy Flight RPG's. I never used them. I had to generate all of our adventures from scratch and frankly as you get older you just do not have the time to do it. At least with miniature painting I can dedicate a couple hours here and there and then come back to it later. Oh and as far as I'm concerned, core rules alone does not provide infinite hours of fun either.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
T

To conclude, I support oldzoggy point of view when he says that it's more revealing a happy rich state of mind than a real in depth and fact-based thought.

Nothing personnal, just up in arms against such kind of behavor and fact-negasionism.

LOL You can support whatever you like, it's doesn't make it so. Neither of you know a thing about me, my state of mind or any other such nonsense that you think you can glean from an internet forum post. Get over yourselves.


Oh by the way, here in the US Warlord Games costs you $40 for the rule book and $112 for the starter sets which means, . . . . . wait for it . . .. that's right boys and girls it's just as expensive as 40K. lol

http://us-store.warlordgames.com/

MolonLabe wrote:
Oh and as far as I'm concerned, core rules alone does not provide infinite hours of fun either.

Only because you want someone to hand you a pre-written story and have your group roll dice as you follow the script. If you're willing to invest the work to do roleplaying the much more fun way all you need is the core rules because you're writing the story yourself.

I had to generate all of our adventures from scratch and frankly as you get older you just do not have the time to do it. At least with miniature painting I can dedicate a couple hours here and there and then come back to it later.

Isn't the subject of this thread supposed to be "financial cost of gaming hobbies", not "how do you like to spend your gaming time"? I'm glad you enjoy painting more than writing roleplaying stuff, but that has nothing to do with the topic here.

 Peregrine wrote:

MolonLabe wrote:
Oh and as far as I'm concerned, core rules alone does not provide infinite hours of fun either.

Only because you want someone to hand you a pre-written story and have your group roll dice as you follow the script. If you're willing to invest the work to do roleplaying the much more fun way all you need is the core rules because you're writing the story yourself.

I had to generate all of our adventures from scratch and frankly as you get older you just do not have the time to do it. At least with miniature painting I can dedicate a couple hours here and there and then come back to it later.

Isn't the subject of this thread supposed to be "financial cost of gaming hobbies", not "how do you like to spend your gaming time"? I'm glad you enjoy painting more than writing roleplaying stuff, but that has nothing to do with the topic here.

Are you paying attention at all? I already clearly stated we never used adventure modules. I don't even know if they make any for the Fantasy Flight stuff.

MolonLabe wrote:
Oh by the way, here in the US Warlord Games costs you $40 for the rule book and $112 for the starter sets which means, . . . . . wait for it . . .. that's right boys and girls it's just as expensive as 40K. lol

http://us-store.warlordgames.com/

And here you go again with the absurd comparison to the 40k starter set. The starter set for 40k is not the real game. Nobody is going to play against you in a pickup game if all you can bring is a starter set worth of models, so realistically you need at least 1000 points to start playing (and that's still a very small game, it's just barely big enough that someone might willingly play with you at that level). And that's going to cost you way more than $150.

You know I never got a reply to how Mantic fits into this. Again, cheaper in every way than GW, I don't think anyone can possibly argue that. Sure you can argue they have worse models, but that is not the argument at hand.

MolonLabe wrote:
Are you paying attention at all? I already clearly stated we never used adventure modules.

That's funny, because your listing of the costs to play D&D sure made it sound like pre-written adventure books are an essential purchase. Are you going to remove that part from your OP, and reduce the cost of RPGs to just the core rulebooks?

Hurrah this weeks version of this thread, I was kind of getting bored of last weeks version, let us rehash all the same arguments as ever,

 oldzoggy wrote:
Or if you are into the classics you could go on ebay and buy the darksun box set (one of the best DND RPG settings ever made) for $60
http://www.ebay.nl/itm/Advanced-Dungeons-and-Dragons-Edition-Dark-Sun-darksun-Box-Set-/262538419941?hash=item3d20825ee5:g:5FUAAOSwRgJXh80F

Hey I had a DM that used the Dark Sun setting years ago. Always enjoyed that one.

MolonLabe wrote:
Oh by the way, here in the US Warlord Games costs you $40 for the rule book and $112 for the starter sets which means, . . . . . wait for it . . .. that's right boys and girls it's just as expensive as 40K. lol

http://us-store.warlordgames.com/

And then how much more mileage you get out of that? 40k starter sets don't go that far. Warlord ones are better deals. So again 40k loses.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MolonLabe wrote:
Oh and as far as I'm concerned, core rules alone does not provide infinite hours of fun either.

So you really need company to tell you how to play RPG? Sheesh. What your GM then does? Just go through premade rules with premade scenarios?

WHAT you need to buy then that you can't make up your own? Setting? Like 95% RPG's I know run on their own.

I don't really get it.
If I start Star Trek Attack Wing it'll cost me about 30€. Dark Vengeance is already at 85€. Going from there every additional expansion in Attack Wing costs 14,50€ and has everything in it, while I'll need a Chaos codes or Dark Angels Codex if I build up one of those starting forces. With a start collecting box that's already 65€ + Codex for 39€. The start collecting box has 3 units in it so let's say it's the equivalent of 3 attack wing ships. I already have 6 ships in attack Wing now with which I can make a full sized battle for two players(!) (3v3 is the tourney game size), while I'll have with Dark Vengeance + start collecting I'll have an army of about 1000points, so a rather small 40K game. At this point 40K cost me already 85€+65€+39€. Attack Wing cost me 30€+about 45€. Gaming mats cost about the same for both systems (attack wings are cheaper because they are smaller, but we can ignore it). And it doesn't get cheaper from now on, because now in 40K I probably want to have knights, or terminators, or big tanks. Or if I decide to take Imperial Guard from now on I'm screwed anyway .
I think the only way to do it cheaper than Dark Vengeance is probably Grey knights. 4 packs of Termis + Librarian are 140€ + 20€ for some HQ + 39€ Codex. Still 200€, for which I can get.... 11ships + starter set in Attack Wing. That's a whole armada already and aside federation you'll have all the ships necessary for at least two factions.

 Turnip Jedi wrote:
Hurrah this weeks version of this thread, I was kind of getting bored of last weeks version, let us rehash all the same arguments as ever,

lol You're welcome.

Also, you can't even get your facts right. The $112 Warlord Games starter set includes the rulebook, you don't have to spend $40 to buy another copy.

tneva82 wrote:

MolonLabe wrote:
Oh by the way, here in the US Warlord Games costs you $40 for the rule book and $112 for the starter sets which means, . . . . . wait for it . . .. that's right boys and girls it's just as expensive as 40K. lol

http://us-store.warlordgames.com/

And then how much more mileage you get out of that? 40k starter sets don't go that far. Warlord ones are better deals. So again 40k loses.

Really, they don't go for that? I can get Dark Vengeance from Amazon for $99. lol Oh that's a starter set by the way.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:
Also, you can't even get your facts right. The $112 Warlord Games starter set includes the rulebook, you don't have to spend $40 to buy another copy.

Oh good, because the Dark Vengeance set also include the rule book, plus templates and dice. Actually I wasn't making reference to the rule book as being needed with the starter set for warlords. I was just pointing out that the warlords rule book costs about the same as the 40K books.

MolonLabe wrote:
Really, they don't go for that? I can get Dark Vengeance from Amazon for $99. lol Oh that's a starter set by the way.

They don't go that far as in you can't do that much with them. You're spending $99 for Dark Vengeance, but then you're spending hundreds of dollars more to get to the ~1000 points you need as a realistic minimum to even consider playing real games. $99 for Dark Vengeance has absolutely nothing to do with the real cost of the hobby.

 Peregrine wrote:

MolonLabe wrote:
Really, they don't go for that? I can get Dark Vengeance from Amazon for $99. lol Oh that's a starter set by the way.

They don't go that far as in you can't do that much with them. You're spending $99 for Dark Vengeance, but then you're spending hundreds of dollars more to get to the ~1000 points you need as a realistic minimum to even consider playing real games. $99 for Dark Vengeance has absolutely nothing to do with the real cost of the hobby.

As many of your fellow posters have so adamantly pointed out, stay on topic. We are talking about getting started costs, not down the road costs. As for "how far they go" its purely speculative.

@MolonLabe
You'll never put that meme to rest, but it is plucky of you to try.

Personally I don't think 40k is overly expensive considering the model scale.

MolonLabe wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

MolonLabe wrote:
Oh by the way, here in the US Warlord Games costs you $40 for the rule book and $112 for the starter sets which means, . . . . . wait for it . . .. that's right boys and girls it's just as expensive as 40K. lol

http://us-store.warlordgames.com/

And then how much more mileage you get out of that? 40k starter sets don't go that far. Warlord ones are better deals. So again 40k loses.

Really, they don't go for that? I can get Dark Vengeance from Amazon for $99. lol Oh that's a starter set by the way.

No the dark vengeance doesn't get you far. Warlord one gives you lot more playing hours. And you "conveniently" forgot to mention that box has rulebook suggesting you need starter set AND rulebook in your quest to twist facts to support your claim. Truth is irrelevant eh?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MolonLabe wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

MolonLabe wrote:
Really, they don't go for that? I can get Dark Vengeance from Amazon for $99. lol Oh that's a starter set by the way.

They don't go that far as in you can't do that much with them. You're spending $99 for Dark Vengeance, but then you're spending hundreds of dollars more to get to the ~1000 points you need as a realistic minimum to even consider playing real games. $99 for Dark Vengeance has absolutely nothing to do with the real cost of the hobby.

As many of your fellow posters have so adamantly pointed out, stay on topic. We are talking about getting started costs, not down the road costs. As for "how far they go" its purely speculative.

You are talking down the road costs all the time here claiming you need hundreds of dollars of books to start RPG's or GHQ models for board games.

Fine. 40k requires you 2000 pts worth of forge world miniatures to start.

tneva82 wrote:

MolonLabe wrote:


You are talking down the road costs all the time here claiming you need hundreds of dollars of books to start RPG's or GHQ models for board games.

Fine. 40k requires you 2000 pts worth of forge world miniatures to start.

Oh I know, but I was told that's not allowed. By the way when I talked about GHQ models for A&A that was talking about something people do to enhance the game. I clearly stated that the starting costs is $160 for A&A and that the other stuff was just stuff that people do to enhance the game. I fully agree that to really enjoy a hobby it's going to cost you money so bitching about how much 40K costs is pointless. If you think it's too expensive, quit.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

MolonLabe wrote:
Again, I could just buy a $30 box of Space Marines and play using this same logic as one book for the whole group, one set of dice for the whole group etc etc. I can just show up with my tactical squad and rely on everyone else in the group for the rest of the stuff I need. Doesn't really work.

Except that isn't comparable at all. If you buy one copy of the RPG book (and $5 worth of dice) for the whole group then you have everything you need to play. The book only comes out if someone says "hey, what's that rule again?" and you briefly look something up, having each player have a book sitting there collecting dust adds nothing to the game experience. But showing up with just your one tactical squad means you probably aren't going to have a game at all, and even if you somehow find someone to loan you the rest of an army you miss all of the customization parts of 40k.

The recurring theme here is that you "prove" that 40k isn't too expensive by stripping down the 40k purchases to absurd unrealistic levels and fluffing out the alternative hobby with a bunch of luxury spending. That's dishonest, and is rapidly demonstrating that you're way more interested in "proving" that 40k is cheap than in having a constructive discussion about the cost of hobbies.

Hey if you guys want to claim that you only need one book for six people to play an RPG that's cool. I've never seen a group that cheap but I guess it's possible. If I want to get started in an RPG I don't call up my buddy and say "You buy the rule book and I'll just use your stuff." lol By the way, how exactly do you know how to play if you don't have a rule book?

K lets actually make the comparison OP is suggesting.

And compare me buying every book of the rogue trader line now available for sale on the FFG website. This totals on $454.40 we could add an other 100$ for models and an other 20 for dice. For a total of 573,40.

With Buying a decent 40k Army Lets say 2k orks ?

Ork paint bundle 114$
GW Plastic glue 7$
Core Rules 85$
Codex: Orks Softback (English) $41
Waaagh ghazz 33$
Death from the skies 58$
GW Dice 20$ ( cheaper ones are out off stock for some reason)
Templates 13,25$
Measuring tape 8$
For a total of 379,25$ before we bought any model.

Now lets add a decent 2k ork army army to have something to play with and still have some variation.

1x Warbozz in mega armour -> lets use ghazz since no model is avaiabe. 40 dollar
9x ork trukk 37,25 each.
6x box ork boyz 29$ each.
3x boxes of mega nobz 63$ each.
2x dakkajet 65 $ each.
3 mek guns 46 $ each.
5 boxes of loota's ( makes 20 loota's in total) 25$ each.

This totals out on a grand total off i kid you not $1112,25 ..

Now lets compare that RPG thing no sane person would ever want to buy every rogue trader book available in the store,. There is just no need to have all the different campaigns books since you will most likely only play 1-3 of them, and the total would be to be able to play for a hole group. While having 2k of orks is not a large collection of orks at all. It could be considered the bare minimum of playing regular games with orks having a 1850 points list + some units to switch out. And you would still be unable to play with your buddies at home. This is just for 1 player who goes to visit a store where they have all the terrain and other players with expensive armies for you available.

So just to recap, Five buddies are going to start playing a new RPG. To keep costs down, only one of them is going to buy the rules and the other four will use that rule book. When they get together to play the four that did not buy a copy of the rules will know how to play through some magical transference of knowledge I guess. LOL Never in my life have I heard of a group of RPG players that all shared one rule book. It's utter nonsense.

MolonLabe wrote:
As many of your fellow posters have so adamantly pointed out, stay on topic. We are talking about getting started costs, not down the road costs.

Oh really? Because you sure haven't been reluctant to inflate the cost of the non-40k stuff by throwing in "down the road" luxury purchases like fancy tokens and matching colored dice.

MolonLabe wrote:
If you think it's too expensive, quit.

Ah yes, this classic. It sure says a lot about the level of discussion here that you've come to this point...

If I want to get started in an RPG I don't call up my buddy and say "You buy the rule book and I'll just use your stuff."

No, your buddy calls you and says "hey, want to join my RPG group? I think you might like it, and I've already got all the stuff we need". Or you buy the one copy of the rulebook and say "hey, you guys want to play? I've got everything we need already, just show up and have some fun". Or maybe a whole group of you say "this looks fun, let's all throw in $20 and start playing".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MolonLabe wrote:
So just to recap, Five buddies are going to start playing a new RPG. To keep costs down, only one of them is going to buy the rules and the other four will use that rule book. When they get together to play the four that did not buy a copy of the rules will know how to play through some magical transference of knowledge I guess. LOL Never in my life have I heard of a group of RPG players that all shared one rule book. It's utter nonsense.

Yes, this magical transference of knowledge called "borrowing the book for a day or two" or "everyone getting together one night and going through the rules as a group". It's not like the group's copy of the book is some kind of sacred knowledge that only the priest of the rules cult is allowed to touch.

Ok, for once Warlord Games manage to put 2 more dollars on his starter set. Well, otherwise you just gatehr a bax of infantry, a tank, some order dice and a rulebook half GW's price and there you go. So, thanks, without you I would never jhave realized how the beating of GW by WG was huge!

The sad thing is that this ork player can't even switch playing styles with this army. He is now an ork boy + some manz trukk player if he wants to go for an other strategy he will most likely have to invest an other 200 - 400$ just to be able to have all the models needed for the build.