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MTG is a card game - a game that is arguably more popular than all of miniature wargaming games available. It's one of the biggest sources of income for shops with a niche market. You could build a budget deck for around $20 and a really good deck for about $200 or so (don't know conversion rates). It can be more expensive if you play Standard, where cards are rotated out (ie not legal for that format) but the game makers accommodated for this and have introduced all sorts of formats (metas) that accommodate all players. It's really easy to pick up to, since all you need is a basic understanding of phases and what is on a card, since all the special rules are printed straight onto the card.

X-Wing is interesting to more people since due to the Star Wars franchie, people know what it's about. I think it's more popular than 40k now in America anyway.

You can't play 40k for 30+ years and never have heard of MTG.
It is simply impossible. Almost al stores run on it and there is a huge overlap in player base.

MolonLabe wrote:
The big mistake that everyone always seems to make when they make the claim that it's cheaper to "get started" in video games is that they never seem to include the initial cost of a console or PC which you must have if you want to play video games.

That's because virtually everyone (other than people who are too poor to afford any of these hobbies) already has a PC as a basic part of living in 2016. It might not be able to run the latest games at full settings, but it's still a PC, and there are decades worth of awesome older games to play. So the cost of getting started in gaming is "buy a $5 classic game, start playing".

And another important factor is that the console/PC is a one-time purchase no matter how many games you play. Had enough of the latest Call of Battlefield game and want to play Sportsball 2016? Just pay your $50 and use the same hardware you've been using. With 40k (or other miniatures games) you're starting over every time you want to do something new and paying the full "getting started" price.

When you think about it though, what is 40K if not a shooter game?

Uh, no. Other than the fact that they both involve guns they are two entirely different experiences.

However in addition to that you need dice, character sheets, and if you are really going to get into the hobby properly you need miniatures for combat situations.

So, $5-10 for some dice, $1 for all the character sheets you could ever want (freely available online, just print a few copies), and if you're really getting into the game maybe another $5-20 per person for hero miniatures and $20 for a whole bucket of generic monsters from the toy store. IOW, the D&D equivalent of "I LOVE THIS HOBBY I'M BUYING A WARLORD TITAN SQUADRON" is buying $100 or less worth of miniatures.

The last time that I played D&D was Second Edition and literally every character class had a supplemental rule book not unlike the codex books from 40K.

None of which is actually necessary to play the game. D&D does have the flaw of encouraging players to spend most of their time on character optimization and rolling dice to see how many monsters they kill, but that is not in any way an essential part of roleplaying. Those books don't contribute to the story at all, they just give you more dice modifiers to stack up and show how big your character's is. You can play the game just fine without them.

So again, here we have a gaming hobby that is at a minimum going to set you back about $200 to get started and that is still more expensive than Dark Vengeance.

Except that $200 "getting started" price is the entire price of the hobby. If you spend $200 on D&D you're going to be having fun with D&D for a long time and you probably won't have to spend any more money in the foreseeable future. If you spend $200 on 40k you have hundreds of dollars left to spend before you can play even the low end of a standard game.

I speak from first hand experience on this because my group played Dark Heresy first edition and if you plan to be a Game Master in that game you might as well prepare yourself for hours of coming up with your own adventures because there is little offered from Fantasy Flight.

Well yes, GMing requires lots of work and creativity. What does this have to do with the financial cost of games?

However, if you just have the pieces that come in the two sets you may find that you come up short on pieces as the game goes on and have to get creative with using the provided chips.

So what? It's a board game, the tokens are just abstract counters. As long as it is clear what is what you can use any random counters you like without losing anything.

Even still, you are out of pocket $160 to get started in Axis & Allies and that is considered a relatively cheap game to play.

No, it's not really considered a relatively cheap game to play. There are lots of board games that cost $50 or less for a single box and that's all you have to buy.

There are a lot of players that take A&A to the next level by way of constructing impressive gaming tables to hold the massive six foot map that you play on. I personally bought color matched dice for each army and that alone set me back about another $50. Some players buy the miniature tanks and half tracks from GHQ to supplement the pieces in the game with more realistic looking pieces. I looked into this myself and in order to provide the minimum number of needed tanks and half tracks to replace the plastic pieces provided in the game worked out to about $80 per army. There are 8 armies. You do the math. WarHammer still look expensive?

Why are you talking about this extreme fanatic level of spending that virtually nobody is going to even come close to? This is the equivalent of buying a dozen Warlord titans to decorate your gaming room, not a typical investment in the board game hobby.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 oldzoggy wrote:
You can't play 40k for 30+ years and never have heard of MTG.
It is simply impossible. Almost al stores run on it and there is a huge overlap in player base.

I'm going to give the OP the benefit of the doubt and assume that they've heard of the game, just not the MTG acronym?

tneva82 wrote:


Funny thing about those is that you don't NEED to buy all the books. Pretty much all the RPG's I have played I have got start of by ~30-40€(so 50$ or so?). Which alone gives me tons of hours.

Can I spend more? Well duh of course I can. But I don't need them to start.



You are mistaking starting prices to extending prices. Miniatures classified as required prices for RPG...Sheesh. Why not put in warlord titans as required starting investment to 40k as well!

Yes, but, following that logic, I could buy a Space Marine tactical squad for $30 and play warhammer. I don't need the rules so long as someone else there has them. I can use their dice. I can use their templates. You see how that works. I never once met a single person who got into playing an RPG and the only thing they bought was the Players Handbook or Core rulebook. Maybe you have.

MolonLabe wrote:

tneva82 wrote:


Funny how I have been able to start multiple games that provide just as much content as 40k for price of 40k army then...

I must be stealing stuff from stores since by your claim it's impossible!

Feel free to share these fantastic games with us.

I already put up above list.

But let's see. LOTW. Say dixon miniatures(those are ones I have). 1.3£ per foot model. Let's say 40 of them to get >50£ order for cheapest postage. So 52£. With postages 59.8£.

How far 40 models get you? 4 starting warbands with spares pretty good estimate. IIRC 15 models is max size in warband so 2 full bands with spare models. So that's 2 players getting more than getting started for 60£...

Necromunda. I started that with catachan box. Hey ho. Not that expensive. 20 guys got me pretty far.

Warmaster ancient isn't that much 62£ gets pretty good start for hail ceasar rules and quick estimate on what it would add up to WMA basing gives pretty good start there as well.

You are just confusing "starting game" to "complete set".

And of course pretty much every RPG. Hell you don't even need to spend one dollar if you don't want(hell you can even legally play D&D for free!)

MolonLabe wrote:
Tell me how two tie fighters and an Xwing is interesting?

Tell me how playing "40k" with just the starter set is interesting?

If you want to dismiss starter-set games in other hobbies as "not interesting" then you need to be consistent about it and apply the same principle to 40k. Playing with just the starter set is boring as hell and don't even think about trying to get a pick up game with it. Unless you have a friend start with you at the same time the only thing the starter set is good for is being the first $100 spent towards buying a real army. And that means you need to consider at least the cost of buying a 1000 point 40k army, the absolute minimum viable force if you want to play the game instead of just congratulating yourself on how cheap your starter set was.

 oldzoggy wrote:
You can't play 40k for 30+ years and never have heard of MTG.
It is simply impossible. Almost al stores run on it and there is a huge overlap in player base.

Well I haven't played 40K for 30 plus years for starters. I've played a lot of different games for 30 years. I've obviously heard of MTG just never seen it referred to as MTG, always just seen it referred to as either Magic or Magic the Gathering. I'm not really one for frequenting gaming forums where evidently the thing to do is bitch about how much 40K costs lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

MolonLabe wrote:
Tell me how two tie fighters and an Xwing is interesting?

Tell me how playing "40k" with just the starter set is interesting?

If you want to dismiss starter-set games in other hobbies as "not interesting" then you need to be consistent about it and apply the same principle to 40k. Playing with just the starter set is boring as hell and don't even think about trying to get a pick up game with it. Unless you have a friend start with you at the same time the only thing the starter set is good for is being the first $100 spent towards buying a real army. And that means you need to consider at least the cost of buying a 1000 point 40k army, the absolute minimum viable force if you want to play the game instead of just congratulating yourself on how cheap your starter set was.

That' a fair point. It's more interesting to me, having done both 40K and X-Wing. It may not be to you. So that's a fair point.

MolonLabe wrote:
I never once met a single person who got into playing an RPG and the only thing they bought was the Players Handbook or Core rulebook. Maybe you have.

Counter-example: I've known lots of people who didn't buy more than the core rulebook, and some who didn't even buy that much. If you join an existing group you'll often find that people already have the rulebooks required (whether legal copies or that guy with a pdf of every RPG book published since 1604) and all you need to do is show up and roll some dice. It's not like you're actually using the rulebooks during the game, they're just reference documents in case you forget a rule. One copy of each for the whole group is easily enough.

 oldzoggy wrote:
An other example. Lets play rogue trader the RPG with friends.
Lets say your group is 5 people. And you buy it all brand new.


-Core rules 60$
-3 Set of D10's 12$
- premade advventure book: Lure of the Expanse 40$

Totals for 112 or around 20$ each and this is when you buy it all brand new. RPG campaign books generally go for a lot cheaper on second hands sites.

And that's probably 2 sets of dices too many(or how many d10's in set comes? I have never needed more than 4-5 dices per type in RPG...) and unneccessary book. You get better scenario ideas free from the net anyway.

MolonLabe wrote:
That' a fair point. It's more interesting to me, having done both 40K and X-Wing. It may not be to you. So that's a fair point.

Having done both they're both boring as hell. Starter set games of "40k" suck, starter set games of X-Wing suck. I wouldn't willingly play either for longer than the absolute minimum required to teach a new player the basic game mechanics.

tneva82 wrote:

MolonLabe wrote:

tneva82 wrote:


Funny how I have been able to start multiple games that provide just as much content as 40k for price of 40k army then...

I must be stealing stuff from stores since by your claim it's impossible!

Feel free to share these fantastic games with us.

I already put up above list.

But let's see. LOTW. Say dixon miniatures(those are ones I have). 1.3£ per foot model. Let's say 40 of them to get >50£ order for cheapest postage. So 52£. With postages 59.8£.

How far 40 models get you? 4 starting warbands with spares pretty good estimate. IIRC 15 models is max size in warband so 2 full bands with spare models. So that's 2 players getting more than getting started for 60£...

Necromunda. I started that with catachan box. Hey ho. Not that expensive. 20 guys got me pretty far.

Warmaster ancient isn't that much 62£ gets pretty good start for hail ceasar rules and quick estimate on what it would add up to WMA basing gives pretty good start there as well.

You are just confusing "starting game" to "complete set".

And of course pretty much every RPG. Hell you don't even need to spend one dollar if you don't want(hell you can even legally play D&D for free!)

Hold on a second. Keep in mind that some of the games you are talking about are not ever sold here. Mini war gaming is far more popular across Europe than it is in America so we don't get a lot of the games you get there. Yes you can play D&D for free if you use the PDF downloads. I can also find the 40K rules in PDF here and then I can supplement bottle caps and poker chips for space marines and orks if I wanted. If you're going to get into a hobby don't be a cheap skate.

MolonLabe wrote:

I'm glad Flames of War is cheaper across the pond because here in the states it is easily far more expensive than 40K.

it is difficult, but because there is Plastic Soldier Company which produce cheap plastic WW2 Minis in 28mm, BF also change to plastic for some stuff and you get Infantry with transport for much less than some years ago.
cheapest list would be a German Heavy Tank list with 1 Box of Tiger tanks and 1 Box Panzer III from PSC and you are done with 50€ for standard size game

a 3 platoon infantry company with company HQ in plastic cost from 30-40€ in now

MolonLabe wrote:

I'm afraid that's just not the case. At a minimum you'll need the core rule book and dice. If you're going to be the DM / GM you'll need a lot more than that. Or maybe your idea of playing an RPG is to let some other player absorb all the cost of getting everything that is actually needed. lol

Sheesh. Okay real life example:

http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/rpgs/traveller-1/traveller-core-rulebook.html

That...One...Book...Is all I need to run game of RPG(well okay handful of d6's as well though those everybody tends to have anyway).

That covers every player and GM.

You don't need supplementary books to play RPG. You can yes but that's only if you want. Or do you put in FW models to 40k requirements as well?

Don't let ANYBODY to lie to you. You just need one book. The core book. Period. One book that's enough for every player in the group.

Even THAT book is actually optional. Seriously don't try to claim RPG's are expensive. At it's core you really need only to pay for any drinks your group likes to drink while playing.

MolonLabe wrote:
If you're going to get into a hobby don't be a cheap skate.

Yeah, don't you dare use the free rules published by the people who sell D&D, it wouldn't fit the OP's claim that D&D is expensive! You should spend money on paper copies of the rules just to bring the price closer to 40k levels!

 Peregrine wrote:

MolonLabe wrote:
That' a fair point. It's more interesting to me, having done both 40K and X-Wing. It may not be to you. So that's a fair point.

Having done both they're both boring as hell. Starter set games of "40k" suck, starter set games of X-Wing suck. I wouldn't willingly play either for longer than the absolute minimum required to teach a new player the basic game mechanics.

That's fair, not everyone digs the 40K starter set. I personally think it's okay but to be fair I didn't buy it, my buddy did. I bought a battle box and started with the hardback rules and a codex. But that is because I wanted a specific army and the starter set did not come with the fluff and I really like the lore of 40K. But I have had experience with the starter set and I thought it was more enjoyable than the X-wing starter set.

Still in all, I think there's no denying that you aren't getting started in video games for less money that 40K.

I see you've never been to Australia then mate.

MolonLabe wrote:
Yes, but, following that logic, I could buy a Space Marine tactical squad for $30 and play warhammer. I don't need the rules so long as someone else there has them. I can use their dice. I can use their templates. You see how that works. I never once met a single person who got into playing an RPG and the only thing they bought was the Players Handbook or Core rulebook. Maybe you have.

If you are affraid of one player bearing brunt of prices divide the cost.

But if you think you need to buy the core rulebook(only book you need to buy) for every player then 40k comparison needs to go up. You need to factor in 1850 pts army price for BOTH players. And it still loses because RPG rulebook takes you as far as you want. 40k 1850 pts army you are stuck with that. No options.

 Peregrine wrote:

MolonLabe wrote:
If you're going to get into a hobby don't be a cheap skate.

Yeah, don't you dare use the free rules published by the people who sell D&D, it wouldn't fit the OP's claim that D&D is expensive! You should spend money on paper copies of the rules just to bring the price closer to 40k levels!

If you prefer the PDF stuff have at it. I'm old school I guess. I prefer to have the book.

MolonLabe wrote:
Still in all, I think there's no denying that you aren't getting started in video games for less money that 40K.

I already denied it. Go read my first post in the thread, where I pointed out that the cost of getting started in video games is $5-10 for a classic game to play on the PC/phone/whatever you already own because it's 2016 and everyone who isn't too poor to afford any of these hobbies owns a computer.

Yes, but, following that logic, I could buy a Space Marine tactical squad for $30 and play warhammer. I don't need the rules so long as someone else there has them. I can use their dice. I can use their templates. You see how that works. I never once met a single person who got into playing an RPG and the only thing they bought was the Players Handbook or Core rulebook. Maybe you have.

I definitely have.

I will admit that I feel like RPGs are a bloody expensive hobby, but that's because I'm usually the GM, and so get stuck picking up the tab for most of the books.

at the same time, I bought the Black Crusade core book, and Tome of Fate, Tome of Excess, Tome of Blood & Tome of Decay for significantly less than a 40k army, even if the army was just for me.

But then, our group don't tend to have multiple copies of the rulebooks - precisely the reason we enjoy certain RPGs is that they're the ones which focus on narrative games rather than excessively detailed mechanics, so during play you don't really need a rulebook (other than one for the GM).

It's the reason we've got to like the FFG Star Wars stuff so much.

Klowny wrote:
I see you've never been to Australia then mate.

Australia? LMAO Hey 40K stuff in Australia is freakin expensive. I've seen shop owners here in the US and Canada talk about how the Aussies get ripped off. On that one I'll agree. I don't know why GW puts the screws to Australia but they do. But here in the states, I'm just not entertaining the notion that you can get started in video games, warmachine, flames of war etc etc for cheaper than 40K because you can't.

MolonLabe wrote:
Hold on a second. Keep in mind that some of the games you are talking about are not ever sold here. Mini war gaming is far more popular across Europe than it is in America so we don't get a lot of the games you get there. Yes you can play D&D for free if you use the PDF downloads. I can also find the 40K rules in PDF here and then I can supplement bottle caps and poker chips for space marines and orks if I wanted. If you're going to get into a hobby don't be a cheap skate.

Not many games are sold in Finland either. You do know there's this thing called "post"? I can get miniatures from USA companies. Is USA really so backwater that they cannot get stuff from europe?

I was talking about legal options...Not illegal. You cannot get 40k rules legally for free. You can get core rules of D&D from the producer. You can even take those and do your own supplements etc.

And lol now you are claiming you need to buy everything to not be cheapskate and therefore it's expensive?

Okay by your logic you must buy 3 warlord titans to play 40k. Don't be a cheapskate!

D&D core rules are available for free legally. You don't need more than that to get started. In case you haven't realized RPG's are all about applying your own imagination. You don't need premade world. You don't need n+1 supplements for every class. That's chrome. That's the RPG equilavent of buying heresy space marines for 100£ per 10 guys when you get plastic squads for cheaper just to have markings etc correct.

You...just...need...core rules. That's it. To get started and provide infinite amount of playing time that's all you need to get.

locarno24 wrote:

Yes, but, following that logic, I could buy a Space Marine tactical squad for $30 and play warhammer. I don't need the rules so long as someone else there has them. I can use their dice. I can use their templates. You see how that works. I never once met a single person who got into playing an RPG and the only thing they bought was the Players Handbook or Core rulebook. Maybe you have.

I definitely have.

I will admit that I feel like RPGs are a bloody expensive hobby, but that's because I'm usually the GM, and so get stuck picking up the tab for most of the books.

at the same time, I bought the Black Crusade core book, and Tome of Fate, Tome of Excess, Tome of Blood & Tome of Decay for significantly less than a 40k army, even if the army was just for me.

But then, our group don't tend to have multiple copies of the rulebooks - precisely the reason we enjoy certain RPGs is that they're the ones which focus on narrative games rather than excessively detailed mechanics, so during play you don't really need a rulebook (other than one for the GM).

It's the reason we've got to like the FFG Star Wars stuff so much.

On a side note I just want to say that I've given up on RPGs. Recently tried the Star Wars RPG from Fantasy Flight. They just don't do anything for myself and my group anymore. We've reached a point where we prefer military strategy games and given that I was the DM / GM for my group I couldn't be happier because of the hours spent working up adventures. Just wasn't entertaining anymore.

MolonLabe wrote:
If you prefer the PDF stuff have at it. I'm old school I guess. I prefer to have the book.

Ok, but now we're not talking about the cost to play or the cost to get started, we're talking about the cost to add on extra luxury items with no practical value. It's like saying that regular 40k dice aren't enough, you need tungsten D6s (only about $50 each) because you're classy and hate those cheap plastic D6s.

You know you can get into Bolt Action for $120 right? A full army. You could just play with the starter army forever and have a great time. How can you get into 40k with $120? That covers two troops, an HQ and... maybe a vehicle for most armies.

I don't know the prices where you are but I can't stomach w40k being cheaper than video games. The rest maybe (there seems to be a strong case against that however)

Why?

You can't count the cost of a computer/internet connection in gaming. These are basic things you should expect to have in the 21st century. A video game online costs probably half that of a get started set here, even less if it's a subscription and provides almost unlimited entertainment in and of itself alone. A w40k starter set, does not.

MolonLabe wrote:

Hold on a second. Keep in mind that some of the games you are talking about are not ever sold here. Mini war gaming is far more popular across Europe than it is in America so we don't get a lot of the games you get there. Yes you can play D&D for free if you use the PDF downloads. I can also find the 40K rules in PDF here and then I can supplement bottle caps and poker chips for space marines and orks if I wanted. If you're going to get into a hobby don't be a cheap skate.

We are not talking about piracy or downloading some crappy PDF. No legitimate free rules, that are in many ways superior to books. Books don't have smart search functions nor do they have all sorts of smart filters, automated NPC and treasure generators or all sorts of advantages of not being bound to paper.

DND: 3.5 : http://www.d20srd.org/

Pathfinder: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/

you see totally free

But even the example of the Rogue trader RPG you really only need that one book. Half of the book is even GM only. In DND terms it is the Player book, the DM guide and the campaign setting book in one, this isn't uncommon in non DND RPG core books.

tneva82 wrote:

MolonLabe wrote:
Hold on a second. Keep in mind that some of the games you are talking about are not ever sold here. Mini war gaming is far more popular across Europe than it is in America so we don't get a lot of the games you get there. Yes you can play D&D for free if you use the PDF downloads. I can also find the 40K rules in PDF here and then I can supplement bottle caps and poker chips for space marines and orks if I wanted. If you're going to get into a hobby don't be a cheap skate.

Not many games are sold in Finland either. You do know there's this thing called "post"? I can get miniatures from USA companies. Is USA really so backwater that they cannot get stuff from europe?

.

Yeah, we're totally backwater dude, that must be it. What a chode.

 Peregrine wrote:

MolonLabe wrote:
If you prefer the PDF stuff have at it. I'm old school I guess. I prefer to have the book.

Ok, but now we're not talking about the cost to play or the cost to get started, we're talking about the cost to add on extra luxury items with no practical value. It's like saying that regular 40k dice aren't enough, you need tungsten D6s (only about $50 each) because you're classy and hate those cheap plastic D6s.

And hey how much you even USE the rulebook in RPG?

Generally we never dig the rulebook up during the game. It's simply not neccessary. Digging up modifiers up etc isn't what RPG's are about but creating story. Rather than dig up tables what's the modifier for this GM should be coming up appropriate for the situation anyway.

MolonLabe wrote:
Yeah, we're totally backwater dude, that must be it. What a chode.

Whatever part of it you live in sure seems to be, since you're talking about "we don't get that here" like your only source of games is what your local game store offers. My part of the US exists in 2016, and if I want a game that isn't sold locally I just buy it online.