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 Melissia wrote:

 General Annoyance wrote:
So according to you I can't like Orks as passionately as I do because I consider their humour to be one of their most important, if not their most important aspect.

Yes. It is like enjoying the Lord of the Rings books for the big battle scenes. That's perfectly fine, but trying to claim that if you don't take the battle scenes all that seriously

Stop there. If you don't take them seriously, what? Christmas is coming on Tuesday next week?

People can ignore part of something in favour of something else. It doesn't mean they aren't ignoring it or missing out on it, and sometimes the thing they're missing out on is the biggest part of it, such as someone who read Lord of the Rings just for the battles.

will make me immediately think you really just don't get Lord of the Rings, yourself.

Going back to what you're using this analogy for, please tell me what exactly I'm missing or misunderstanding about Orks that I haven't covered here - I don't like not knowing after all these years!

Because you're presumptuously attacking other people for their likes and dislikes while only ever looking at the bare-bones surface level.

My original point with this is that someone was supposedly failing to understand why Orks have self destructive weapons, which attributes to their humorous side, a side that genuinely runs through everything that the Orks do.

Again, tell me what I'm missing, but I don't think I'm being unreasonable in anything I've said, nor have I painted anyone like the antagonist of the thread, like you have to me.



EDIT: Looks like I was a little too late for this, gimme a bit to respond

I didn't expect my comment to be dragged across most of this thread, but I guess life would be boring if it was predictable

 oldzoggy wrote:

their mentality when approaching almost anything is the same

This is imperial propaganda, they want us to fear barbarian hordes from outer space

What can I say, I'm an Imperial at heart Mind you, Orks are still my favourite race in the lore, just not my favourite faction.

Ork culture is really complex more so than that of most lower races even if you ignored the huge cultural differences between the Klans

I wouldn't say complex at all. Wildly different, yes, but still fairly straightforward and to the point.

I think we also need to understand that the theme of comedy runs through practically every facet of Ork society for the sake of my later arguments. Take the Klans for instance:

-Goffs live and fight (which is basically the same thing in Ork Kultur) by the simplest and most deadliest means possible. A length of metal or a snipping Power Klaw will do just as equally when they fight, since they drown their enemy in sheer numbers of highly competent fighters. Any other Ork who doesn't respect the simplicity and power of the Goffs is a fool, and often can expect to not have many teef in his head after the fact.
-Evil Sunz believe in speed and being able to ride into battle on some sort of mount, because no Ork wants to walk into battle. They paint everything red because they inexplicably think red stuff goes fasta, and it does because of their belief combining with Waaagh! energy. Most of their purpose revolves around racing and beating eachother and other Klans to a fight
-Death Skulls are the biggest band of thieves and dissidents in Ork society - they steal everyone else's hard stolen loot and cover it in blue to signal the new owner and for luck. All of their equipment as such look suspiciously like blue versions of other Klans' weapons and equipment, which they use to deadly effect.
-Bad Moonz are ostentatious gits who have the highest rate of Flash Gitz formation - those Orks who get kicked out of the tribe for getting on everyone's nerves with all the flashy gear they flaunt. They're also the influx of new currency in Ork societies that may have been lost on the battlefield, and any Ork knows he can afford his new Shoota if he can punch all the teef out of a Bad Moon's head.
-Snakebites tame wild, vicious animals as well as Gretchin and Squigs, mostly for the purpose of enjoying the chaos they wreak when they are unleashed on their opponents. They also shame most technology, either because they live as ferals or believe that Orks who use technology aren't as tough as they could be, like they are.
-Blood Axes are seen as "untrustworthy gits" by the other Klans due to their intelligence, tactics and willingness to cooperate with other factions in the universe, if only to turn the weapons they earn from this on their supposed allies, much to the amusement of other Orks. Despite their typically higher intellect, they still feel the need to camouflage all their equipment, even if the designs don't match.
-Freebooterz draw from every Klan and plenty of tribes who don't pledge allegiance to any of the Klans. They vary in their size and activities greatly; their most common aspect is typically the amount of unstable lunatics they take into their folds who foolishly seek fame, riches and power. Those that achieve this can be some of the most infamous and deadly Orks in the galaxy, and they travel from world to world to pillage, fight and find some good trinkets to adorn their trophy racks.


I don't know about you, but it seems like the theme of humour runs deep through Ork Kultur in terms of this, and many others besides.

They captured Terra by manipulating and blackmailing the high lords. That has to count for something right, what other alien species have achieved this ?

When was this? Doesn't sound like anything I've read at all.

Provost-Major Kyne, at the court-martial of Lt Gordo 4th editiom ork codex wrote: Half-glimpsed shadows? Ork wearing camouflage? Do you take us for imbeciles? Orks are barbaric and entirely single-minded. Army dogma, which has served us well for ten thousand years, teaches us this. Greenskins come on in a great horde, they do not slink and sneak in the shade. Guards! Take the prisoner to the holding cells to await execution for cowardice and incompetence.

The existence of Kommando's does not change their mentality when it comes to their ultimate goal, which is to fight and kill. They have just grasped onto a different method of doing so like the other Oddboyz have. And in terms of their humour factor, Kommando's have to be some of the most hilarious with their ridiculous methods of hiding and fighting - just listen to the Kommando Nob's lines from DOW2.

 Melissia wrote:
Orks are more than comedy. They are the unending, unstoppable horde of barbarians at the gate. They are a race who are at first glance primitive, but in truth they can make any technology work, and have some of the most advanced technology in the setting-- exceeding in some places even that of the Necrons, Tau, and Eldar.

How is their technology advanced? Again:

 General Annoyance wrote:

Fascinating and technological prowess are two entirely different things; while you're correct that Orks can make some law defying and incredibly dangerous war machines, such as the Attack Moons and many more besides (the Submarines used on Armageddon are a good example), the fact that the Meks that cobbled them together did so based on their Waaagh! energy buildup is indicative of their biology to make more powerful tech when they are in numbers - that technology is still crude in nature and heavily flawed or unreliable, as seen with the Attack Moons and how the Imperial Navy exploited its weakness to destroy them. And once the Waaagh! is broken, the Meks can't remember how they made them again until they end up in a Waaagh! of equal or greater size, if ever that may happen again on the level of the Beast. They aren't consistent in their technological advances like the other primary races, and often lose any advancement as a result of this.

People seem to confuse form over function. Ork technology is primitive - it's cobbled together from whatever junk fits together best. That's got nothing to do with how effective it is, which considering how it is built, is very good indeed.

Technology and Ork biology are not interchangeable, in the same way form is not interchangeable with function - the technology that they don't loot and build from scratch is garbage, their biology and Waaagh! energy is what makes them so potent.

 Melissia wrote:
They have a stable society that every single Ork respects and believes in to the very core of their soul, and finds all other societies abominable

Except for the ones that pledge themselves to the Chaos gods, Khorne and Nurgle primarily I think.

Real talk here people - can we agree that that lore is such ? I'm not sure if it's still in canon, hopefully it's not.

We look at their actions and we see eccentricities, goofiness, and silliness. A joke. But in truth, they are internally consistent to a fault, perfectly logical killing machines for whom the current state of the galaxy is nothing less than an afterlife brought to their mortal souls

Wouldn't say they are perfectly logical - they still lack deeply in the tactical department - but as individuals they are most certainly geared for a straight purpose - fighting and survival.

I'm not denying any of the importance of this side of the Orks, but then again when was I? Even here you can see the element of dry humour in the fact that Orks are so simplistic and yet so successful in the galaxy in all regards - economy, survival, battle records etc.


Hopefully my argument makes sense to you now, but I feel like I've been fencing in a minefield this past day over this. If you still want to discuss this, I'm happy to make a new thread (and even a poll) about this, but this has gone way off topic to what the OP was talking about, which was the rules regarding his KFF.

G.A

Except for the ones that pledge themselves to the Chaos gods, Khorne and Nurgle primarily I think

It's more a passing fancy for the ork than anything else.

There used to be Chaos Orks, but I was under the impression that that was changed. That Chaos really didn't offer the Orks anything that their gods didn't give them already

Chaos can offer a ork little what a propper scrap can.

Good waargh. Or chaos.. 99.9999% of time a good waaagh

Tycho wrote:

Orks are supposed to be low tek, powerful and found in huge numbers, so they need certain drawbacks to compensate (and bad shooting and no invul. fits perfectly imo). In fact, I would even change KFF to give a random ++ vs shooting (throw a dice) but that on a 1, it explodes and hurts your troops instead.

The problem is that Orks currently have ALL of the drawbacks you mention without having ANY of the upsides you mention. An additional nerf to the KFF is seriously uncalled for, and the last thing we need is MORE random stuff. In the fluff Orks are regularly seen with very strong force fields and are actually one of the races most likely to have a powerful force field of some kind. So allowing more access to the KFF would be fairly fluffy IMO.

Well, my suggestion wouldn't necessarily nerf the KFF, as, on average, you'd get a better invul. than 5. As of now, I agree that orks are really subpar and worst of all, boring (while I'm not a huge fan of over the top humour some authors give to the Orks, imo they should be menacing and full of bloodlust yet still possessing an aura of unpredictability and randomness). Not only are we a gakky army with a boring rule (Waagh should be much more fun than this), we have no special c.c. weapon, no clan traits and only boring gunz choice. I just don't feel the answer to a better Orks Codex is to give them more access to ++ and simply reduce points across the board. Their lack of invul. save is something that makes them sets them apart from other races, so is blowing themselves up

 General Annoyance wrote:
How is their technology advanced?

Because no other race is able to produce technology as capable as Orks are in many areas. For example, it's established in Battlefleet: Gothic that Ork forcefields are the strongest in the galaxy-- all the better for ramming, of course, in the Ork mind-- and their tractor beam technology is second to none. And unlike what you're claiming, it works-- Ork technology failing while an Ork is using it is actually the exception, not the norm. And that's just the easy to mention stuff, to say nothing about the quirky, insane technology Ork Mekboyz are able to produce when a large Waaagh! is inspiring them to push their knowledge further.

 General Annoyance wrote:
Technology and Ork biology are not interchangeable

Do Eldar not have advanced technology, then, because Eldar technology relies upon Eldar biology to run? Do Tau not have advanced technology, because their technology was designed around the smaller Tau body? Human technology? Necron technology, which IS their biology?

You're making a distinction where in reality no distinction exists. Technology is, simply put, "the application of scientific knowledge for practical purposes". Ork technology is unorthodox by our standards, but their instinctual understanding of the laws of physics as they exist in 40k quite provably exists, and they quite provably apply it to what is, to them, practical purposes.

 General Annoyance wrote:
Except for the ones that pledge themselves to the Chaos gods

Which is remarked in the lore to be so rare as to not even exist-- exactly as I said.

The Chaos Gods try. They try hard. They're only able to touch a few, cut off from the rest, by exerting their powers to the fullest. And even those are only corrupted by making use of the framework of Ork society. The few rare khornate Orks don't worship Khorne or Nurgle because of some dedication to the concept of Chaos. They do so because their dedication to Orky Culture was warped by Chaos. It's not really even described as worship. It's just "I'm gonna be big, strong, and tough like [x]", really.

So my statement still stands, and in fact this fact reinforces what I said later about Chaos.

 General Annoyance wrote:
Wouldn't say they are perfectly logical - they still lack deeply in the tactical department - but as individuals they are most certainly geared for a straight purpose - fighting and survival.

Actually their tactics make perfect sense, given their resources and the mentality of their people. And they work quite frequently, too.

 General Annoyance wrote:
When was this? Doesn't sound like anything I've read at all.

First, it's the Beast Arises.

Second, on pp. 81-82 of HH1: Betrayal, in the Exemplary Battles section of the Sons of Horus, they describe the Hollowing of Gorro, a mekworld so advanced that it was resistant to orbital bombardment by Crusade Era weaponry and had to be assaulted from within by the Emperor and Horus, who are given a run for their money by the advanced plasma weaponry of the mekboyz within.

Here's the problem with most of your posts in this thread: they make fundamental assumptions about orks based on fluff portrayals from long-dead editions. Is Mag Uruk Thraka name an orky version of Margaret Thatcher? You bet it is. Should Ghazzy be called the Iron Lady? Nope.

The Orks were the last great obstacle to the Great Crusade, and their defeat at Ullanor such a momentous event that the Emperor used it as a stage for the most consequential political decision he would ever make: the elevation of the Warmaster. They are consistently a thorn in the side of the Imperium far greater than anything aside from the Tyranids. They are a race designed exclusively for war by beings of unimaginable power.

The "comedy" you're so bent on hammering home is a rules phenomenon, and a fluff hangover. Look at the 7th Edition fluff--they're not funny. They're not a laughing matter. They're a culture that everyone agrees could wash away all the other civilizations in the universe if they were united. Is there something charmingly brutish about them? Sure. But that doesn't mean they won't ram Wurld Killa straight into your planet and murder everyone because violence and death not only make them happy, they're how the species reproduces.

 Melissia wrote:

 General Annoyance wrote:
How is their technology advanced?

Because no other race is able to produce technology as capable as Orks are in many areas. For example, it's established in Battlefleet: Gothic that Ork forcefields are the strongest in the galaxy-- all the better for ramming, of course, in the Ork mind-- and their tractor beam technology is second to none. And unlike what you're claiming, it works-- Ork technology failing while an Ork is using it is actually the exception, not the norm.

Reliable tekkiology I hear?

Thus a Tellyport Blasta tends to be unpredictable, but, as many other Ork weapons, still effective

The device itself is very complex and it is fairly common for it to fail in different and spectacular ways

it is common for the polarity of the beam to be reversed, thereby dragging the Kannon towards the enemy target, or even for it to overheat, preventing it from keeping up a high rate of fire

Although potent, its power is determined by the willpower of the grot firing the weapon, as its firing lever also electrocutes the Gretchin firing it

Jams and misfires are common, as is the case with most Ork weapons

They serve as the Ork equivalents of Jump Packs, although they are far less reliable

Their ships sport protective energy barriers comparable to Imperial void shields, though an Ork generator is more likely to be covered in crackling electricity, spew clouds of noxious smoke, or randomly vaporize any Orks that stand too close

You get bonus points for identifying which Lexicanum articles I found these in within ten minutes of reading your statement

And that's just the easy to mention stuff, to say nothing about the quirky, insane technology Ork Mekboyz are able to produce when a large Waaagh! is inspiring them to push their knowledge further.

We have covered some of their actual technological marvels, such as the Attack Moonz. These are still unreliable and unstable pieces of technology despite their awesome power, and can only built when enough Waaagh! energy is present as you said, which has not been seen in such quantity since the times of The Beast. Again:

 General Annoyance wrote:
People seem to confuse form over function. Ork technology is primitive - it's cobbled together from whatever junk fits together best. That's got nothing to do with how effective it is, which considering how it is built, is very good indeed.

 General Annoyance wrote:
Technology and Ork biology are not interchangeable

Do Eldar not have advanced technology, then, because Eldar technology relies upon Eldar biology to run? Do Tau not have advanced technology, because their technology was designed around the smaller Tau body? Human technology? Necron technology, which IS their biology?

Eldar, Tau and Necron Technology is more advanced than Ork technology because a human can fire a Shuriken Catapult, throw a Tau Photon Grenade and wield a Necron Phase Sword; all testimonies to the technology's undeniable power that it can function away from the hands of their architects with just as much deadly force. While it took the biology of the creator to make it, and sometimes their biology to operate it (Battlesuits being DNA locked, for instance) the items themselves can speak for themselves, unlike Ork technology, which is so poorly built that only the Orks can get it work properly using their unique psychic energy signature.

Plus the Necrontyr made their technology with their bare hands before they incorporated it into their bodies as part of a pact with the Star Gods. Technically biology and technology are interchangeable for them, but even then humanity and a few select races have managed to exploit and use their own technology safely, which cannot be said for the Orks.

 General Annoyance wrote:
Except for the ones that pledge themselves to the Chaos gods

Which is remarked in the lore to be so rare as to not even exist-- exactly as I said.

The Chaos Gods try. They try hard. They're only able to touch a few, cut off from the rest, by exerting their powers to the fullest. And even those are only corrupted by making use of the framework of Ork society. The few rare khornate Orks don't worship Khorne or Nurgle because of some dedication to the concept of Chaos. They do so because their dedication to Orky Culture was warped by Chaos. It's not really even described as worship. It's just "I'm gonna be big, strong, and tough like [x]", really.

So my statement still stands, and in fact this fact reinforces what I said later about Chaos.

This is true, but still demonstrates that Ork Kultur can be disregarded by Orks - it's more commonly disregarded by subfactions like the Freebooterz rather than the rare occasions where Orks pledge to Chaos, but it still happens.

 General Annoyance wrote:
Wouldn't say they are perfectly logical - they still lack deeply in the tactical department - but as individuals they are most certainly geared for a straight purpose - fighting and survival.

Actually their tactics make perfect sense, given their resources and the mentality of their people. And they work quite frequently, too.

But compared to the other races in 40k, their tactics are typically easy to outmanoeuvre. It's not about if it makes sense to them, it's whether they stack up against their enemy's tactics; commonly they only work due to an element of surprise or overwhelming numbers.


And just as I thought this was dealt with, a new challenger enters the ring...

 Splork wrote:

 General Annoyance wrote:
When was this? Doesn't sound like anything I've read at all.

First, it's the Beast Arises.

Thanks for this - I haven't read the novel but am aware of some of the things it brought to Ork lore thanks to Lexicanum - just how exactly did they do that, and how did it not spell the end for humanity?

Second, on pp. 81-82 of HH1: Betrayal, in the Exemplary Battles section of the Sons of Horus, they describe the Hollowing of Gorro, a mekworld so advanced that it was resistant to orbital bombardment by Crusade Era weaponry and had to be assaulted from within by the Emperor and Horus, who are given a run for their money by the advanced plasma weaponry of the mekboyz within.

 General Annoyance wrote:
People seem to confuse form over function. Ork technology is primitive - it's cobbled together from whatever junk fits together best. That's got nothing to do with how effective it is, which considering how it is built, is very good indeed.

It's still not advanced whatever you say. Powerful and effective, but not advanced or even reliable

Here's the problem with most of your posts in this thread: they make fundamental assumptions about orks based on fluff portrayals from long-dead editions

Not dead if it's still canon mate, which it all is.

They are a race designed exclusively for war by beings of unimaginable power.

According to theory, that's still never been proven in lore as I have said before.

The "comedy" you're so bent on hammering home is a rules phenomenon, and a fluff hangover

I'm sorry, I forgot that part in a lot of Ork media where Orks are described as "appealing to people with a sense of humour" - primarily 4th edition, quoted verbatim.

Look at the 7th Edition fluff--they're not funny. They're not a laughing matter. They're a culture that everyone agrees could wash away all the other civilizations in the universe if they were united. Is there something charmingly brutish about them? Sure. But that doesn't mean they won't ram Wurld Killa straight into your planet and murder everyone because violence and death not only make them happy, they're how the species reproduces

Just because they are a nightmarish blight on the galaxy that will kill and maim until their demise (if they ever were to die out) doesn't mean they can't be funny going about it, which they are in almost every form of Ork media, including codexes, books and video games.


Anyways, I'm done discussing this on this thread; as much as it has been entertaining for all of us, we are in deep breach of Rule no.2 here if we continue. I'm happy to start another thread if either of you PM me saying you'd like to discuss further, or we can finish the discussion in PM's alone.

G.A

 General Annoyance wrote:
Reliable tekkiology I hear?

You keep harping on about it, but ultimately, Ork tellyportas are on par with everyone else's teleportation tech, exclusively save for the Necrons. You take one or two examples and generalize over the whole thing-- because you just don't get Orks. You see them as a joke and nothing more. And that's why I have said what I have said in this thread. And I'm done with it.

According to theory, that's still never been proven in lore as I have said before.

WOT!!!

It's mentioned in the second edition codex if I remember.
And lightly touched on in the beast arises I think.

 Melissia wrote:
You see them as a joke and nothing more.

If you can find where I said that, do PM me, and I'd be happy to publicly accept that that you're correct, and that I don't understand or love Orks past their humour.

I felt like I needed to contribute something to the thread, especially regarding the KFF that started this; I'm not sure what "old rules" the OP was referring to, but I think a good solution would be to perhaps roll 2D6 to determine it's AOE each turn, rather than perhaps having it explode and harm a lot of Boyz that could be running alongside it, and the Big Mek of course.

 General Annoyance wrote:

To assume that their technology is anything better than improvised scrap is playing ignorant to their lore, and to take their ridiculous contraptions and their reason for existing seriously and negatively is missing one of the most important aspects of the Orks - their comic relief in an otherwise grimdark universe.

 General Annoyance wrote:

But no, you won't find much about them past what you can already see on the surface

Where in those two quotes is the line that says Orks are exclusively about humor?

As a long time ork player. SemperMortis is right. This codex sucks balls. It actually is WORSE then the 5th edition codex it replaced. I think the ONLY unit that got better or didnt get worse was the Tank bustas. Other then that either the codex made a unit less effective, or the rules itself made them worse and never got adjusted with this codex.

I have no problem with orks blowing themselves up sometimes. Its often hilarious, and quite fluffy. I do have a problem with units with rules that are the same (OR WORSE) as they were 20 years ago. There is no diversity in the vehicles, upgrades or work bits then they can have access to. Its embarassing. It really is embarassing to field an army that you like and SHOULD be able to have a good scrap (not necessarily tournament winning) but instead just gets blasted off the table.

The best example of GW not giving a feth about the ork codex is Grotsnik, He is a dok and has default 5+ fnp. He also has a cybork body which gives him a 6+fnp......... what the feth is that??? When given the chnace to correct the mistake or oversight in the recent FAQ... GW's resposnse was "He's mad thats why" not ..even admitting it was an oversight. He literally has a rule/upgrade that is completely superfluous. Its not even worth the ink that was used to print those words.

I sincerely hope the next codex gives us justice. I dont want orks to be OP, or dominate the GT circuit. I just want to be in the middle of the pack, be bale to take whatever typ eof army I want to run (bikes, mek list (dreads, stompas and kanz up the ass ), horde of boyz, speshalist (lots of the elite type units - i.e MANZ, tank bustas, kommanods etc) and have enough power and unique rules and upgrades where its both fun for me and my opponenet and can present a reasonable and equal chance to blow my opponenet away or blow myself up in the process.

HOW IS THAT TO MUCH TO ASK FOR?

SemperMortis might be right about the power level of Ork codex, but his adjustements are simply OP and out of scale

Are they? I hadn't thought they were OP.
I just didn't think they reflected what I want in an Ork codex, mostly I think I'd say it that way.

KurtAngle2 wrote:
SemperMortis might be right about the power level of Ork codex, but his adjustements are simply OP and out of scale

Actually those buffs put them on the same table as Eldar/SM/Tau/Necrons and KDK. I wouldn't say it makes Orks better then any of those, but it at least eliminates a lot of the garbage crap that does nothing but nerf the orks.

But with that said, what particularly do you think is OP?

All of SemperMortis adjustments are OP, also Melissa you are taking this way too personally.

Edit: Semper those codices, with the exception of KDK, are acknowledged as... OP

 Quickjager wrote:
All of SemperMortis adjustments are OP, also Melissa you are taking this way too personally.

Edit: Semper those codices, with the exception of KDK, are acknowledged as... OP

Exactly. Orks ARE the joke race. Everyone has their own humorous thing (Nemesor being the primary Necron example) but Orks are a joke because of how they function. Their technology is only impressive when it actually ends up impressive, if that makes any sense to anyone. They could rule the galaxy but they're too stupid and violent to do so.

Do their rules need some cleanup? Absolutely. But let's not pretend the fluff shows them as deeper than they are.

 Quickjager wrote:
All of SemperMortis adjustments are OP, also Melissa you are taking this way too personally.

Edit: Semper those codices, with the exception of KDK, are acknowledged as... OP

So according to you, this is OP?

Boyz: Give them a 6+ FNP stock instead of 6+ Armor. Their FNP will stack with a painboy so they could theoretically have a 4+ FNP. And old Mob rule. Finally, increase to S4 and you have now made them a bit more survivable and a bit harder hitting. Also, upgrading to shoota boyz is free, because who wants to pay for an assault 2 S4 weapon….really?

A boy going from 6+ save to 6+ FNP, gaining S4 and bringing back old mob rule. That is OP to you? just checking because if that is where your scale starts for OP then Every other codex in the world must be OP.

No but the Nob adjustments, the Loota D3+2, Battle Wagon point reduction, Weirdboy psychic discipline options, Shootas for free, at Initiative PK on every special character, 4++ invul for 15 points, Burma Boy adjustments.

Those are.

Edit#1: especially all taken together.
Edit#2: you know scratch the shoota, it's not op, it just doesn't make sense.
Edit#3: add Ghaz and Kommando changes to the OP list.

I'd like 1+D3. for the lootas. we used to do that with the assault cannon in 2nd edition. because some of us used to roll 3 jams all the time. I don't see them often competing for slots because of 7th edition army list building.
I think most of the army just needs a LD and morale fix. I for one hate having to rely on 2 named characters and one Named Item to fain Fearless in lower point games. (Less points that I'd bring a stompa to, fair play and that sort of thing.)
Orks just need more options for ever unit to make them a better choice. What about 2 points for flack armour across the board. what about buying a bolter. what about getting burnas back in troop mobs. What about being able to buy more dakka too. more big shootas in shoota boy mobs. Just small things added in would raise the power level but not make it tooooo over the top.
My bigest gripes have ben the loss of the 5++ mostly for my warboss, who is forced to issue a Challenge if able. And the lack of LD across the army and lack of LD rerolls, The Mob Rule chart is very unforgiving and frustrating.
I don't want everything but I'm willing to pay out the points for the things I want! Just give me more options!

 Quickjager wrote:
No but the Nob adjustments, the Loota D3+2, Battle Wagon point reduction, Weirdboy psychic discipline options, Shootas for free, at Initiative PK on every special character, 4++ invul for 15 points, Burma Boy adjustments.

Those are.

Edit#1: especially all taken together.
Edit#2: you know scratch the shoota, it's not op, it just doesn't make sense.
Edit#3: add Ghaz and Kommando changes to the OP list.

So taking a massively over priced CC unit and reducing its costs is OP?

Lootas? D3+2 is OP? Lootas are glass cannons, the second your opponent sneezes at them they die in droves. With an average roll of D2 your still only getting 4 shots per model on a BS2 platform. So worse then Eldar shenanigans with their Scat bikes, but at least they can put out dakka now.

Battlewagon being OP....seriously? What is the one thing an ork player does well? Spams. You can not spam battlewagons because they are to costly and they SUCK! AV14 is great, AV12 is meh and AV10 is weak. A battwagon is average on 3 sides and only has the AV14 up front to justify its existence. It is a good transport for medium sized boyz squads and it lacks dakka completely at the current price, even outfitted with all the dakka it can hold it still isn't that good.

Giving Weirdboyz access to other psychic tables is OP? Im going to ignore this completely because that is just silly.

Shootas for free is OP? ok lets take a look at that. ATM Shootas cost 1 POINT! when you take them you reduce the number of CC attacks you get per boy by 1 and in return you get a Range 18 S4 AP6 Assault 2 gun on a BS 2 platform. Why should that cost points when your reducing your CC ability? Isn't the loss of CC ability a fair enough trade off as is? Unless your thinking im saying they get SHootas AND their CC weapons in which case I understand but that isn't what I was saying.

At initiative PKs? I Suggested giving Ghaz one....thats it. And considering he is the biggest meanest ork in the galaxy I think its warranted.

4++ for 15pts is pushing my luck I understand, but seeing as Wulfen get a Stormshield AND a Thunderhammer for 20pts I think its reasonable to say my Orks should get a 4++ for 15 points and then still have to pay 20-25pts (Depending on my buffs) for a PK. So minimum of 35pts possibly 40 for the equivalent upgrades.

Burna Boy adjustments are fine, I think the change to Skorcha and the Torrent might be a bit much but really considering how crappy they currently are its hard to justify taking any of this away.

Kommandos gaining Shrouded and assault from infiltrate is not OP, considering how garbage they are this isn't that huge of a buff. At most your going to get surprised by a couple of lucky assaults if he fields multiple of them, but again, they are basically expensive boyz.

And finally, the Ghaz is OP comment. I agree, I went a bit over board with Ghaz. I would say though that if you take away the Army wide fearless the rest of it could stick as is and he would still be not considered OP.

Another thing I'd love to see is more USR's on things.
The Bubble chukka I feel should have either blind or concussive or both. Maybe it doesn't kill it's target so well but as a way to actually suppress an enemy unit would be amazing.
I'd love to see Burna boys gain Fear, which wont help all the time but will help a bit and be a cool rule for a unit full of burnas.
I'd like, if Nobs stay the same more or less, for Nobs mobs to move up to 15 strong as an option.
The need to be a more interesting and a little bit less fragile choice.
I'd like one more tracked vehicle and more gun options for the battle wagon all based around the Mek guns.
I don't know just how much better the Gorkamorkanauts should be I'd settle for some form of superheavy light. Just being immune to being one shotted, maybe till they have lose a few hull points. (Still brain working that.)
Orks need to be brutal. they're not just an intergalactic joke. Yes there's some humor to them But a lot of us like our savages... savage. Notice I didn't ask for my choppa rule back... but if it's on the table I'll take it!


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Giving Weirdboyz access to other psychic tables is OP? I'm going to ignore this completely because that is just silly.

I don't get this one. Orks should really only have Ork powers Orks are nor really a Psychic race at all. Their powers are drawn from the WAAAAGH, the Ork resonance, not the warp.

 warhead01 wrote:



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Giving Weirdboyz access to other psychic tables is OP? I'm going to ignore this completely because that is just silly.

I don't get this one. Orks should really only have Ork powers Orks are nor really a Psychic race at all. Their powers are drawn from the WAAAAGH, the Ork resonance, not the warp.

Ork Waaagh powers are a gestalt psychic power that EVERY ork has. Orks are probably more psychic then humans. Orks are pigeon holed into 2 psychic charts, 1 of which causes them perils on doubles. The orky one is fething terrible. Orks, according to the fluff, have psykers powerful enough to pull entire fleets out of the warp. So can you please explain to me how they should be so completely inept at any form of USEFUL psychic ability?

Also your losing a lot of credability with the statement that nobz are fine they just need to be a bit tougher. At the moment Nobz aren't fielded except as Mega Nobz because they are So expensive and any useful upgrade for them is even MORE expensive. Nothing like fielding an 70pt PK nob on a bike.....

Ork Waaagh powers are a gestalt psychic power that EVERY ork has. Orks are probably more psychic then humans. Orks are pigeon holed into 2 psychic charts, 1 of which causes them perils on doubles. The orky one is fething terrible. Orks, according to the fluff, have psykers powerful enough to pull entire fleets out of the warp. So can you please explain to me how they should be so completely inept at any form of USEFUL psychic ability?

Orks should simply have ork powers maybe 2 or 3 Ork power charts at best. Being that they are actually different that other Psyker power users.
I don't care about the powers any other race has. All I want to do is be able to shut them down, during a game. But Other than that I don't care enough to be bothered to want them. I don't have access so why care at all.
You are more than welcome to want want ever it is that you want.

Also your losing a lot of credibility with the statement that nobz are fine they just need to be a bit tougher. At the moment Nobz aren't fielded except as Mega Nobz because they are So expensive and any useful upgrade for them is even MORE expensive. Nothing like fielding an 70pt PK nob on a bike.....

First. haha... Credibility? really? HA what a joke.
And More on topic, I was thinking IF their unit didn't change in other way, More models is the least amount of change I want. I think GW would be all like, yes, please buy more models.
I'd like a points drop on Nobs but I don't want Codex Orks to turn into Codex Nobs. I think what you aren't looking at is the teef economy that is the Ork codex. If it's good it cost a lot of it's actually good it cost tones! If their's a chance it will be good or useful it costs too much. Honestly I'm surprised KMK's don't cost more points.. Oh, Wait it's a "new" kit that cost...what 35 45 bucks and is new to this edition of 40K so ya, sales.
Don't get me wrong, I'd lover to field Nobs mobs. I haven't done that in 4 editions now. GW's made it clear over they years that things in units cost more depending on the amount you are able to get and how strong they are. So I'd love to get 20 point PK Nobs in a Mob But I doubt it will happen. (Example, Lascannons in Dev squads)
Credibility.... Ha.

 General Annoyance wrote:

Again, tell me what I'm missing, but I don't think I'm being unreasonable in anything I've said, nor have I painted anyone like the antagonist of the thread, like you have to me.

EDIT: Looks like I was a little too late for this, gimme a bit to respond

The logic and reason displayed in your post are hideously offensive to those of us who reject such modes of conversation. You should have a trigger warning in your signature. I feel violated by the fair and even-handed analysis you put on display in this thread.


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 warhead01 wrote:
I don't get this one. Orks should really only have Ork powers Orks are nor really a Psychic race at all. Their powers are drawn from the WAAAAGH, the Ork resonance, not the warp.

I have been saying this for years. They shouldn't peril and their powers should be more attuned to the unique aspects of the race.

Orks do not have technology in our sense. They do it instinctively, not using knowledge. They have "technology" in the sense that ants and beavers do. That's why it's unreliable.

 Sal4m4nd3r wrote:
As a long time ork player. SemperMortis is right. This codex sucks balls. It actually is WORSE then the 5th edition codex it replaced. I think the ONLY unit that got better or didnt get worse was the Tank bustas. Other then that either the codex made a unit less effective, or the rules itself made them worse and never got adjusted with this codex.

I have no problem with orks blowing themselves up sometimes. Its often hilarious, and quite fluffy. I do have a problem with units with rules that are the same (OR WORSE) as they were 20 years ago. There is no diversity in the vehicles, upgrades or work bits then they can have access to. Its embarassing. It really is embarassing to field an army that you like and SHOULD be able to have a good scrap (not necessarily tournament winning) but instead just gets blasted off the table.

Agreed, as you said, I don't want orks to be op, I just want them to be at least competitive. I also want them to be fun and have a distinct feel from other races (remember the rumor about each units generating a waaagh counter every 10 models in it, then either using those counters to call a waagh or cast a spell with you weirdboy). Now we have the boring waagh rule that a lot of army has a variation of (wich imo, also doesn't suits orks well, run and charge feels more like something an army like Tyranids would have) and Mob Rule (while I do like it, it's not a really defining rule)

 Sal4m4nd3r wrote:
The best example of GW not giving a feth about the ork codex is Grotsnik, He is a dok and has default 5+ fnp. He also has a cybork body which gives him a 6+fnp......... what the feth is that??? When given the chnace to correct the mistake or oversight in the recent FAQ... GW's resposnse was "He's mad thats why" not ..even admitting it was an oversight. He literally has a rule/upgrade that is completely superfluous. Its not even worth the ink that was used to print those words.

what about the option of adding a stikkbomb chukka on vehicles when pretty much every units in the book has stikk bomb.

 Sal4m4nd3r wrote:
I sincerely hope the next codex gives us justice. I dont want orks to be OP, or dominate the GT circuit. I just want to be in the middle of the pack, be bale to take whatever typ eof army I want to run (bikes, mek list (dreads, stompas and kanz up the ass ), horde of boyz, speshalist (lots of the elite type units - i.e MANZ, tank bustas, kommanods etc) and have enough power and unique rules and upgrades where its both fun for me and my opponenet and can present a reasonable and equal chance to blow my opponenet away or blow myself up in the process.

HOW IS THAT TO MUCH TO ASK FOR?