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Necrons do have souls after all! Oddly, that actually makes their situation worse.  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Ute nation

Yes to both, 60 million years ago and in or around the age of strife, so 20k sounds rightish.

Constantly being negative doesn't make you seem erudite, it just makes you look like a curmudgeon.  
   
Made in gb
Agile Revenant Titan






Grimgold wrote:We know some necrons served the star gods, worshipped them as their own deities, so a splinter faction of crons that resemble the old crons and serve un-splintered C'Tan wouldn't require a total rework, just an acknowledgement they exists.

If they ever decided to release rules for them, It could seriously be a Space marine chapter style codex, with some overlap, some missing units and some units that are exclusive to the C'Tan worshipping necrons. You could say they probably wouldn't have canoptek units (since they are servants instead of having them), but could have units like pariah, or units part way through the process of being changed into necrons (with fleshy bits like the flayed ones originally were). They could also have C'Tan in their ranks filling leadership positions.


That'd be an interesting way to do it, and probably closer to what GW would actually do, squeezing more money out through supplements.

However, for me, the bit that that misses is the unified threat thing. If it's only a subset of 'crons that are C'Tan-worshipping Oldcrons, it seems like a drop in the ocean compared to the new family-friendly Newcron background.

Really, to make it fit into the grimdark 40k universe it should be the other way round. The main 'cron force are unified C'Tan worshippers, with a small subset of rebellious ones that have risen up against their C'Tan overlords.

That would set the tone much better (IMHO), keep the Necrons being cool implacable alien robots which letting people who have built up their own Newcron dynasties to keep their dudes unchanged

Jehan-reznor wrote:Wasn't the war in heaven millions of years ago and the fall of the eldar around 20k?


Yeah pretty much. The Fall itself started in ~M18 and reached its crescendo in M31.

Both Wars in Heaven took place millions of years before that.

Check out may pan-Eldar projects http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/702683.page

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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Ynneadwraith wrote:


However, for me, the bit that that misses is the unified threat thing.

The (old) C'tan were implied to have hostile relations with each other what with the cannibalism and all.

No idea how that impacted the Necrons themselves. Would they follow whatever C'tan showed up? Were they beholden to one in particular? What happened if two C'tan tried to control the same Necrons?
   
Made in gb
Agile Revenant Titan






Hmmm, interesting. They still seemed more unified than the petty, squabbling Newcrons though. More of a genuine (yet still possibly beatable) threat.

Check out may pan-Eldar projects http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/702683.page

Also my Rogue Trader-esque spaceport factions http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/709686.page

Oh, and I've come up with a semi-expanded Shadow War idea and need some feedback! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/726439.page

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Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter





SoCal

In my headcanon, the Newcrons are all being Deceived. The illusion of self determination gives them the drive and flexibility they need to unwittingly accomplish the Deceiver's ends. Some of the silliest parts of the Newcron Codex are complete fabrications to keep the Overlords docile.

   
Made in gb
Agile Revenant Titan






Hah that's another great way of patching over the silliness of that codex...

Check out may pan-Eldar projects http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/702683.page

Also my Rogue Trader-esque spaceport factions http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/709686.page

Oh, and I've come up with a semi-expanded Shadow War idea and need some feedback! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/726439.page

Lastly I contribute to a blog too! http://objectivesecured.blogspot.co.uk/ Check it out! It's not just me  
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block






I know this thread has started to quieten down a bit, but I find this discussion really interesting and wanted to offer my two cents since some lines of thought doesnt seem to have been discussed from what I can see. This post got quite long (once I get going I find it hard to slow down), so I'm going to put each point of discussion in a spoiler box to make the read more manageable.

Necrontyr Souls
Spoiler:
Fist off, just to get it out the way, I think Ynneadwraith was right when they say the Blanks are more than just soulless. Things like rocks and water are soulless, but Blanks are the utter anathema to the warp. It's not that Blanks dont exist in the Warp, the Warp cannot exist around Blanks. If that was simply because a Blank is soulless then rocks, water, and the rest of it would also be anathema to the Warp, making Daemonic invasions and the use of psychic powers damn near impossible. So it's more accurate to say that Blank's have an anti-soul of sorts; a soul made from something other than psychic energy. The reason psykers describe them as soulless is because they cannot see this other soul.

This leads me into my thoughts on the Necrontyr soul. I have always seen the soul to be some sort of energy, as many authors often refer to it as the "life energy" of a creature. Indeed, when the 5th ed. Necron Codex refers to the biotransference of the Necrontyr it describes the C'tan as "drinking in the torrent of cast-off life energy" and that Szarekh "watched the C'tan feast of the life essence of his people" before later realising that "the price of physical immortality had been the loss of his soul" (page 7 of the 5th edition Necron codex). More to this, we know the C'tan are star vampires and that they fed off the energy of the stars before discovering the delicacy that is a soul, so this is further evidence (just from Necron sources) that a soul is energy. But does it have to be psychic energy, linked to the warp?

Most races in the 41st millennium have a soul of psychic energy, but as I said Blanks appear to have a different, anti-psychic kind of soul, so soul-energy must not be limited to psychic energy. However the most important thing about the Necrontyr is they are NOT a race of the 41st millennium. They are truly ancient: before the War In Heaven they already had incredibly advanced technology and science (they had living metal before they met the C'tan) and had carved out a significant empire in the galaxy; then the War In Heaven started and lasted centuries, if not millennia (5th ed codex (page 6) says that the Necrontyr's pre-C'tan war against the Old Ones saw them pushed back in "but a span of centuries" but says nothing about the second half, so I'm assuming a bit here); and then after the war the Necrons slept for 60 million years.

My point is that the Necrontyr are OLD, and the galaxy was a very different place back then. Despite the fluff surrounding this time becoming scarcer and scarcer, one thing seems to remain consistent: before the War in Heaven, psychic power wasn't really a thing beyond the Old Ones. Certainly, we know that the Necrontyr either lacked psychic abilities entirely or the gene was so withered within their DNA that it was all but useless, hence why the could not defeat the Old Ones without the help of the C'tan. Even though they had superior numbers and technology, they just could not counter psykers effectively.

So we have a galaxy in which the only major psychic presence is the Old Ones. But then the War In Heaven begins and eventually the Necrons and the C'tan start winning. In desperation the Old Ones weaponize not just psychic powers, but the psyker gene. They begin manipulating and elevating other races they have been nurturing to fight alongside them. Specifically, they nurture the psyker gene in these races, realising that it is their greatest weapon against the psyker-less Necrons and C'tan. Among the many races, they raise the Eldar to become a psychically mighty fighting force, but they cannot replace their numbers fast enough to match the Necrons. To answer this they enhance the Krorks/Orks to be a rapidly multiplying combat-ready force, born to instinctively know how to make/fix/fight things and with a gestalt psychic field to ensure their technology works. They even begin work on evolving humans according to some sources, but lose the war before they can finish which is why it took so long for the psyker gene to fully develop in us. Now the galaxy is saturated with the psyker gene, and psychic races with psychic souls. These races make up the majority of what we see in the 41st millennium, but the Necrontyr/Necrons are not one of them. The Necrontyr came before these races and weren't nurtured by the Old Ones. They didn't have the psyker gene thrust upon them because they were the threat it was answering.

And this long meandering explanation bring me to my point. Without the psychic gene, there's not logical reason that the Necrontyr would have souls of psychic energy that are linked to the warp. They certainly had some sort of soul-energy since the C'tan definitely consumed it, but it likely took another form. What form this energy did take is anyone's guess. It could have been limited to the Materium, or it could have worked similar to psychic energy and been linked to another dimension (we know from Flayed Ones, Deathmarks, and Nebuloscopes that their are more dimensions than just realspace and the Warp). If it was linked to another dimension that could explain why the warp never really interact with it (we don't know how the warp interacts with any dimension beyond realspace), and if the warp can't directly interact with the soul, then it can't easily posses the mind and body of the creature that soul belongs/once belonged to.


Why Necrons want flesh bodies again
Spoiler:
To me this is less about an individual Necron wanting to return to a body of flesh and blood, and more about the Necrons as a species wanting to return to bodies of flesh and blood.

The Necrons have no souls (I know the whole point of this thread is to argue that point but lets just assume it is either gone or unrecognisable mutilated). They were devoured by the C'tan and now those with enough sentience feel indescribably hollow, there is a void of nothingness that can never be filled or satisfied. Though the Overlords and Pharons are too proud and arrogant to admit it, they feel that they suffer from a terrible curse. With their souls gone the people and culture of the Necrontyr are all but destroyed, replaced by the soulless warmachine that is Necrons. If the Necrons can return to flesh bodies, then maybe there is a chance their species will regain their souls (if not in those who were once Necrons then in their children). They can cast of the memories of the C'tan and their servitude to them, which is arguably a time of great shame for such a vain race. Like Psienesis said, the Necrontyr sacrificed all but the memory of their past civilisation when they underwent biotransference. With flesh bodies they can grow their species once more. They can revive their culture and return it to it's past glories. More importantly, they can fill that hollow emptiness.

Beyond this, there is the important factor which is that the Necrons cannot reproduce. Yes they are incredibly durable, but once a Necron is destroyed beyond the ability to be repaired, that is the Necron population down by 1 permanently. If they have flesh bodies, they can reproduce again, bringing new life to their species and allowing it to grow and advance once more, not stagnate as it does now.

Warriors might not have enough sentience to survive outside of their Living Metal bodies anymore, but the rest of the Necrons probably could. Immortals would likely suffer from severe cognitive limitations but the Pharons, Overlords, Lords, Crypteks, Lychguard and Praetorians still make up a sizeable population. Keeping the warriors in Living Metal bodies, they could definitely remain a threat to the other races of the galaxies, which brings me to my next point.


Why the Necrons don't let the Tyranids devour the Galaxy
Spoiler:
Beyond the above mentioned wanting to get flesh bodies again, this really comes down to two simple yet defining aspects of the Necron psyche: pride and arrogance.

They are the Necrons. One of the first races to rule the galaxy. They carved out a vast empire before many of todays races even had a homeworld to evolve on. They went to war with two of the most powerful races in the galaxy, which could each bend reality to their will, and not only won but utterly destroyed them. They killed their own gods and took their mantle. The Necrons wont let the Tyranids "roflstomp the galaxy for them" because it's not the galaxy, it's their galaxy. As far as the Necrons are concerned the galaxy and everything in it is their property, and the Tyranids not only threaten that, but insult the Necrons in daring to do so.

Also, what good is lording over the galaxy if there is no one in it to lord over? Earlier this year I read The World Engine by Ben Counter, and whilst I'll admit that there is a lot of fluff in it (both concerning Necrons and Space Marines) that I did not like, it had a lot of points built upon the Newcron fluff which actually made me like it (especially the stuff The Judicator talks about). One of these points was that the Necrons had taken slaves from the worlds the World Engine had destroyed. Now I will admit that when I first read this I thought it was utterly ridiculous. Why would the the Necrons need slaves when they have the Canoptek units? Why would they allow life which is so far below them to serve them. Again the answer lies in pride and arrogance. What use is it having legions of warrios and hordes of Canoptek units serving you if you know that they have no concept of that fact that they are doing it? Canoptek units were made to serve, and the majority of Necrons which aren't high-ranking nobility have built in protocols which force them to serve. But if you enslave living, sentient races which know and understand you have overpowered them, then it can stroke your ego and satisfy your pride.

So beyond the Necrons wanting to return to the realm of flesh, they want to stop the Tyranids because this is their galaxy to conquer and subjugate.


Harvest the Living
Spoiler:
In The World Engine, Ben Counter also built up another bit of fluff which I really want to see discussed further in the codexes. Its a return to the old notion of the Necrons harvesting the living, but takes it to new places since they no longer use conquered populations to make new Necrons. In chapter 3 the Astral Knights discover a room filled with machines deconstructing the remains of humans down to their base parts. I'm not just talking about dissecting here:

The first thing he saw was a human corpse, naked and skinny, hanging from a hook that rattled along a track built into the ceiling. Thin arms of glistening articulated steel pared the body apart, separating the head and the limbs. The parts were deposited on an elaborate conveyor which took them towards a bank of processing machines at one end of the room, with dozens of insect-like robot appendages to pick up the parts and force them down jaws lined with blades and grinders.
Tiny scarabs scurried across the conveyor as oozing body parts moved along. Their mandibles peeled off skin and muscle, separating organ and bone into neat piles arranged as precisely as the work of an artist. By the time the body reached the body reached the processors it had been broken down into pieces so completely that it did not resemble a person anymore, but the components of a puzzle from which a human corpse could be assembled.
...
A larger machine loomed past the first. This one received the processed corpse matter, carried by hundreds of scarabs. This machine, like a squat hundred-armed beast of steel, transformed the body parts into blocks of compressed bone or flesh, to be carried off by yet more scarabs to be stacked like so much cargo against the wall of the room.
Everything glistened with blood.


We are never explicitly told why the Necrons are doing this, but to me it obviously isn't to study out biology in an attempt to reverse the biotransference. They wouldn't so completely destroy the body of they were doing that. No, this is harvesting the living in a very literal sense, and perhaps much darker than what happened in the old fluff. They're not just killing and enslaving the other races of the galaxy, they are harvesting us like raw materials. In the same way that we dig up coal or cut down trees, the Necrons are disassembling organic life for production material. It goes without saying that Necron technology and science is beyond advanced compared to other races, so its not a stretch to assume that they can transform flesh and bone into fuel or living metal or some other useful thing.


Anyway thats my thoughts. Im pretty sure some of this already got discussed but it's easy to get lost in some of the replies here :p

Cap'n Bargutsa's Krakenmaw Tribe: 4.5k of Ogors

Court of the Drowned Throne: In progress Flesh Eater Courts

Legions of the Novkha Dynasty: 2k of Necrons 
   
Made in gb
Agile Revenant Titan






No worries necro-ing a Necron thread poetic more than anything plus, it was only on page 2...

Necron Souls
I love the idea that the prevalence of warp-connected souls is due to the Old Ones' meddling, and that Necrons could have some sort of naturally occurring soul that connects to another plane of existence, or rooted in realspace. They definitely have a 'life energy' at the very least.

Why Necrons want flesh bodies again
Yeah I like all those nuances of the Necron fluff, which personally I think could be lent on much better in the Necron codex.

It's also something that's improved if there are hints of a Necron soul, whatever form it takes, clinging on to their living metal sarcophagi. It offers them the tangible method through which they realise that dream, but if it's only in the hands of a mad Cryptek working behind the backs of the arrogant Lords it would still allow for it to be a struggle.

Why the Necrons don't let the Tyranids devour the Galaxy
That's definitely a very good explanation in isolation, but I feel like it treads directly through ground already dominated by the Eldar. Pride and arrogance are their defining cultural traits, and using them as key defining traits of the Necrons devalues them in my mind.

Harvest the Living
Ooh now that I absolutely love! What's really lacking from the current Necron fluff is a sense of alien dread. Harvesting the living for raw materials certainly qualifies for that!

I also love that the purpose is left completely unexplained.

I do feel that in explaining the Necrons in greater detail in the Newcrons codices they've lost something fundamental about the Necron fluff: the mysterious pre-historic alien horror. Think the first time Shepard encounters the Geth Dragon's Teeth in Mass Effect

Part of the best bit of the 40k universe is that so much of it is not understood even in the slightest. Makes it all the more terrifying for the inhabitants

Check out may pan-Eldar projects http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/702683.page

Also my Rogue Trader-esque spaceport factions http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/709686.page

Oh, and I've come up with a semi-expanded Shadow War idea and need some feedback! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/726439.page

Lastly I contribute to a blog too! http://objectivesecured.blogspot.co.uk/ Check it out! It's not just me  
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






 Grimgold wrote:
We know some necrons served the star gods, worshipped them as their own deities, so a splinter faction of crons that resemble the old crons and serve un-splintered C'Tan wouldn't require a total rework, just an acknowledgement they exists.

These C'tan worshipping Necrons already [still] exit - The World Engine features a Necron dynasty which worships the Void Dragon.
   
Made in gb
Agile Revenant Titan






Yeah it's a nice touch from the writers evoking the old fluff, but there's a subtle nuance between the majority of Necrons being like that and the majority of Necrons being Space Tomb Kings.

The former's scary on a galactic scale. The latter's faintly ridiculous on a galactic scale.

Check out may pan-Eldar projects http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/702683.page

Also my Rogue Trader-esque spaceport factions http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/709686.page

Oh, and I've come up with a semi-expanded Shadow War idea and need some feedback! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/726439.page

Lastly I contribute to a blog too! http://objectivesecured.blogspot.co.uk/ Check it out! It's not just me  
   
 
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