Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Eh that region was alredy prosperous when he com...did he inprove it? yeah greatly, but try to compare it to likes of Fulgrim, Magnus, Mortarion, Lion, or Konrad for that mater.

Btw Lorgar anyone?

Bad anglish again.

Sanguinius is the only answer

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

His 'dauntless few' school-prefects-club sounds like a really easy way to alienate a solid proportion of the other Primarchs.

And then he goes and pisses off one of his 'dauntless few' post-heresy to the point that there's nearly another civil war about that too!

Did he mention it to any of the Primarchs?

That wasn't really his fault. The High Lords of Terra ordered that the Legions be reorganised so that one man couldn't control the same sort of power Horus (or any Primarch really) did.

ChazSexington wrote:Because he pissed off loads of them and almost started a second civil war with his Codex Astartes.

Arguably the High Lords of Terra were to blame for the almost-civil-war. He was just following orders.

Cassor the Damned wrote:He insulted Alpharius' way of war, even when there was nothing wrong with it
Almost caused another civil war with Dorn
The Lion was in RAGE mode when he realised that Gulliman was building another Imperium
Critisised Pertuarbo (fair enough in my opinion)
Didn't trust the Khan to the point where he excludes him from the dauntless few
He may not have liked shaming lorgar, but he should have had the balls to say to the emperor this is only going to end badly

Yes there was. Alpharius deliberately let worlds fortify themselves and prepare for battle so he could show off. That unnecessarily lead to more deaths and slowed down his progress. And the speed of conquest was very important to the Emperor.

The Lion also ended up understanding what Guilliman was doing. That was a rather unique situation, too. He was cut off the rest of the Imperium and so had to ensure what he could govern operated as well as it could.

Khan not being in the Dauntless Few isn't really a strike against Guilliman unless there's more to it than that. Wasn't Khan considered a bit of an enigma by many?

How do you know he didn't say that to the Emperor? You only really see it from the Word Bearer perspective if I recall correctly. Regardless, he did as the Emperor commanded as any (or most) other Primarch would have.

First off, I want to say that I have absolutely no problem with Guillaman, I think he is awesome, especially the way he is portrayed by aaron dembiski bowden. However, "just following orders" is how millions of soldiers justify war crimes. I'm sure both the Astartes and the remaining primarchs would have viewed the codex the same way. A war crime. Also, there actually was nothing wrong with Alpharius' way of war. His conquests where just as fast as any other primarchs. Guillaman took issue with the fact that it wasn't a "manly" way of war. Alpharius usual way of conquest was fast and left very few human and astartes fatalities. However, when Guillaman was a prick (another example of lack of charisma) by saying "my way of war is better then yours, proven by the fact I have more victories then you" despite the fact Guillaman was the 8th primarch to be found and Alpharius the 18th/20th depending on the way you look at it. This annoyed Alpharius and caused him to let one single world (not worlds) to fortify to show his skill. This led to only 12 Astartes fatalities. Yes, many humans died and it took a while to rebuild, but it was Guillamans fault for anatagonising him. Also, the Emperor and the High Lords of Terra would have cared more about Astartes lives and resources than the lives of humans who had turned from the Imperium. Also, it sent a great message to everyone who wanted to turn. "Don't turn or we'll mess you up without even trying"

The Lion only ended up understanding after they almost went to war with eachother over it. Another example of Guillaman lacking the tactness to calm down the Lion and explain himself. He was considered an emigma by anyone who wasn't sanguinius, horus, magnus, mortarian and occasionally Fulgrim.

It is a strike when the Guillaman actually say he would be in the dauntless few but can't be relied on. Bit hypocrital of a man who didn't come to his fathers aid when he was assaulted from all sides.

Any I think it is mentioned several times but mainly in the book "know no fear" that he knew it wouldn't work and would cause tension but did it anyway

Cassor the Damned wrote:

First off, I want to say that I have absolutely no problem with Guillaman, I think he is awesome, especially the way he is portrayed by aaron dembiski bowden. However, "just following orders" is how millions of soldiers justify war crimes. I'm sure both the Astartes and the remaining primarchs would have viewed the codex the same way. A war crime. Also, there actually was nothing wrong with Alpharius' way of war. His conquests where just as fast as any other primarchs. Guillaman took issue with the fact that it wasn't a "manly" way of war. Alpharius usual way of conquest was fast and left very few human and astartes fatalities. However, when Guillaman was a prick (another example of lack of charisma) by saying "my way of war is better then yours, proven by the fact I have more victories then you" despite the fact Guillaman was the 8th primarch to be found and Alpharius the 18th/20th depending on the way you look at it. This annoyed Alpharius and caused him to let one single world (not worlds) to fortify to show his skill. This led to only 12 Astartes fatalities. Yes, many humans died and it took a while to rebuild, but it was Guillamans fault for anatagonising him. Also, the Emperor and the High Lords of Terra would have cared more about Astartes lives and resources than the lives of humans who had turned from the Imperium. Also, it sent a great message to everyone who wanted to turn. "Don't turn or we'll mess you up without even trying"

The Lion only ended up understanding after they almost went to war with eachother over it. Another example of Guillaman lacking the tactness to calm down the Lion and explain himself. He was considered an emigma by anyone who wasn't sanguinius, horus, magnus, mortarian and occasionally Fulgrim.

It is a strike when the Guillaman actually say he would be in the dauntless few but can't be relied on. Bit hypocrital of a man who didn't come to his fathers aid when he was assaulted from all sides.

Any I think it is mentioned several times but mainly in the book "know no fear" that he knew it wouldn't work and would cause tension but did it anyway

Yeah this.

It's by no means a 'lets bash Guilliman' session, but it is an acceptance the he is just as flawed as every other Primarch.

None are perfect.

The closest is Sanguinius, except for the fact that he's got big ol' mutant wings...

LightKing wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
Warmaster Guilliman would have started a Heresy by pissing off so many Primarchs that they'd conspire against the Warmaster, not the Emperor.

Where is this idea that so many Primarchs vehemently hate Guilliman coming from?

Because he pissed off loads of them and almost started a second civil war with his Codex Astartes.

Guilliman never said his Codex was "law" in fact he said the complete opposite yet many chapters didn't get the memo apparently

But it was at the outset. While Chapters deviate in some minor way (organisation, toothbrush colour etc), that's okay, but building up beyond Chapter strength is not.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

Yes there was. Alpharius deliberately let worlds fortify themselves and prepare for battle so he could show off. That unnecessarily lead to more deaths and slowed down his progress. And the speed of conquest was very important to the Emperor.

The Alpha Legion wasn't slow. Guilliman reprimanding Alpharius made them redouble their efforts to show they could pull off the most astounding and complete victories. Wheras Horus praised the Alpha Legion for their skills. Man management is why Guilliman would have made a terrible Warmaster.

Cassor the Damned wrote:

First off, I want to say that I have absolutely no problem with Guillaman, I think he is awesome, especially the way he is portrayed by aaron dembiski bowden. However, "just following orders" is how millions of soldiers justify war crimes. I'm sure both the Astartes and the remaining primarchs would have viewed the codex the same way. A war crime. Also, there actually was nothing wrong with Alpharius' way of war. His conquests where just as fast as any other primarchs. Guillaman took issue with the fact that it wasn't a "manly" way of war. Alpharius usual way of conquest was fast and left very few human and astartes fatalities. However, when Guillaman was a prick (another example of lack of charisma) by saying "my way of war is better then yours, proven by the fact I have more victories then you" despite the fact Guillaman was the 8th primarch to be found and Alpharius the 18th/20th depending on the way you look at it. This annoyed Alpharius and caused him to let one single world (not worlds) to fortify to show his skill. This led to only 12 Astartes fatalities. Yes, many humans died and it took a while to rebuild, but it was Guillamans fault for anatagonising him. Also, the Emperor and the High Lords of Terra would have cared more about Astartes lives and resources than the lives of humans who had turned from the Imperium. Also, it sent a great message to everyone who wanted to turn. "Don't turn or we'll mess you up without even trying"

The Lion only ended up understanding after they almost went to war with eachother over it. Another example of Guillaman lacking the tactness to calm down the Lion and explain himself. He was considered an emigma by anyone who wasn't sanguinius, horus, magnus, mortarian and occasionally Fulgrim.

It is a strike when the Guillaman actually say he would be in the dauntless few but can't be relied on. Bit hypocrital of a man who didn't come to his fathers aid when he was assaulted from all sides.

Any I think it is mentioned several times but mainly in the book "know no fear" that he knew it wouldn't work and would cause tension but did it anyway

Nobody thought the Codex was a "war crime". It was a reorganisation of a military force which hitherto had had immense leeway. The Primarchs against it were opposed to it due to their pride and the feeling that they were being distrusted despite their loyalty. It wasn't an unethical order. Guilliman was ensuring no single person was powerful enough to threaten the Imperium like Horus had.

In regards to Alpharius you have a point. Alpharius' strategies took longer to put into play but resulting in less casualties allowing his men to be spread wider. Probably wasn't too big a gap (especially considering Alpharius wasn't sanctioned for it like Lorgar was). Guilliman's discussion with him on tactics was not exactly diplomatic. Still, even Horus alienated Corax if I recall correctly.

I remain unconvinced. The Lion would have been in a very suspicious mindset considering what was occurring. He wouldn't have trusted anyone.

Didn't Khan actually contemplate joining Horus? Guilliman was blocked off from the Emperor by Warp storms. Using that against him is unfair.

Ah fair enough. Still, would any other Primarch have refused the order?

Ynneadwraith wrote:It's by no means a 'lets bash Guilliman' session, but it is an acceptance the he is just as flawed as every other Primarch.

None are perfect.

None are perfect but some are more flawed than others.

ChazSexington wrote:The Alpha Legion wasn't slow. Guilliman reprimanding Alpharius made them redouble their efforts to show they could pull off the most astounding and complete victories. Wheras Horus praised the Alpha Legion for their skills. Man management is why Guilliman would have made a terrible Warmaster.

Their tactics took longer but they could apparently spread out more because of their lessened casualties. One of those astounding victories led to Alpharius receiving censure from many corners not just from Guilliman. I still feel like this is only one Primarch Guilliman has actually alienated through his own fault though.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

Cassor the Damned wrote:

First off, I want to say that I have absolutely no problem with Guillaman, I think he is awesome, especially the way he is portrayed by aaron dembiski bowden. However, "just following orders" is how millions of soldiers justify war crimes. I'm sure both the Astartes and the remaining primarchs would have viewed the codex the same way. A war crime. Also, there actually was nothing wrong with Alpharius' way of war. His conquests where just as fast as any other primarchs. Guillaman took issue with the fact that it wasn't a "manly" way of war. Alpharius usual way of conquest was fast and left very few human and astartes fatalities. However, when Guillaman was a prick (another example of lack of charisma) by saying "my way of war is better then yours, proven by the fact I have more victories then you" despite the fact Guillaman was the 8th primarch to be found and Alpharius the 18th/20th depending on the way you look at it. This annoyed Alpharius and caused him to let one single world (not worlds) to fortify to show his skill. This led to only 12 Astartes fatalities. Yes, many humans died and it took a while to rebuild, but it was Guillamans fault for anatagonising him. Also, the Emperor and the High Lords of Terra would have cared more about Astartes lives and resources than the lives of humans who had turned from the Imperium. Also, it sent a great message to everyone who wanted to turn. "Don't turn or we'll mess you up without even trying"

The Lion only ended up understanding after they almost went to war with eachother over it. Another example of Guillaman lacking the tactness to calm down the Lion and explain himself. He was considered an emigma by anyone who wasn't sanguinius, horus, magnus, mortarian and occasionally Fulgrim.

It is a strike when the Guillaman actually say he would be in the dauntless few but can't be relied on. Bit hypocrital of a man who didn't come to his fathers aid when he was assaulted from all sides.

Any I think it is mentioned several times but mainly in the book "know no fear" that he knew it wouldn't work and would cause tension but did it anyway

Nobody thought the Codex was a "war crime". It was a reorganisation of a military force which hitherto had had immense leeway. The Primarchs against it were opposed to it due to their pride and the feeling that they were being distrusted despite their loyalty. It wasn't an unethical order. Guilliman was ensuring no single person was powerful enough to threaten the Imperium like Horus had.

In regards to Alpharius you have a point. Alpharius' strategies took longer to put into play but resulting in less casualties allowing his men to be spread wider. Probably wasn't too big a gap (especially considering Alpharius wasn't sanctioned for it like Lorgar was). Guilliman's discussion with him on tactics was not exactly diplomatic. Still, even Horus alienated Corax if I recall correctly.

I remain unconvinced. The Lion would have been in a very suspicious mindset considering what was occurring. He wouldn't have trusted anyone.

Didn't Khan actually contemplate joining Horus? Guilliman was blocked off from the Emperor by Warp storms. Using that against him is unfair.

Ah fair enough. Still, would any other Primarch have refused the order?

Ynneadwraith wrote:It's by no means a 'lets bash Guilliman' session, but it is an acceptance the he is just as flawed as every other Primarch.

None are perfect.

None are perfect but some are more flawed than others.

ChazSexington wrote:The Alpha Legion wasn't slow. Guilliman reprimanding Alpharius made them redouble their efforts to show they could pull off the most astounding and complete victories. Wheras Horus praised the Alpha Legion for their skills. Man management is why Guilliman would have made a terrible Warmaster.

Their tactics took longer but they could apparently spread out more because of their lessened casualties. One of those astounding victories led to Alpharius receiving censure from many corners not just from Guilliman. I still feel like this is only one Primarch Guilliman has actually alienated through his own fault though.

The Imperial Fists hated it. Captain Amit the Flesh Tearer said Guilliman was a bigger traitor then Horus. Alot of BA agreed with him. Guilliman attracted alot of hate from his codex, whether it was deserved or not.

The only people who sanctioned him was Guilliman, Dorn said it was impressive but had led to loss of human life. Guilliman just said it was an "unmanly" way for an Astartes to fight. It was Guilliman who peed him off. If any other primarch had been there, they probs would have said "hey, nice job man. Loved the way you only lost 12 guys, but people are people too. Next time, why don't you try to limit their loss of life too, hmm?"

and khan only considered it because he was lied to by Horus, and said he would make his decision on honour. Which is fair enough, following anyone with blinding loyalty isn't a great idea. Honour is. It ensures the correct moral decision is reached.

As for would anyother primarch have refused, I honestly don't know. Ironically, the only people I can actually see refusing are Horus and Lorgar lol. Both of them being either too charismatic, or too loving of their fellow brothers to shame another like that. What I would say however, is that a few of them may have at least suggested an alternative to the emperor.

As far as the Lion goes, you're probably right. That guy had trust issues.

However, somehow Sanguinius managed to find away through the warp so I don't know how Guilliman didn't. I hope Black Library gives a good reason and he wasn't just having a lie in and missed the ship lol.

As for "I feel like only one primarch was through Guillimans own fault" you're absolutely right. Oftentimes Guilliman stood up to people who needed to be stood up to, e.g pertuarbo. And as you said, Horus alienated Corax, Dorn alienated Curze and the Lion alienated pretty much everyone lol. You could quite easily say Guilliman is the victim of circumstance, but the maths suggest that is unlikely. Too many primarchs just didn't like him.

didn't Guilliman essentially save the Imperium after the Heresy...

i mean the 7 surviving loyalist primarchs made him Lord Commander, and followed his word

to say he was "hated" amongst his brothers is simply not true

Yeah he definitely wasn't hated, but he also definitely wasn't liked/respected enough by enough primarchs to make a good choice for Warmaster. He'd have made the right decisions, even if they were difficult, but alienated people too much in doing so.

It is suspicious that Sanguinius could get through the warp storms but Guilliman couldn't...

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
Yeah he definitely wasn't hated, but he also definitely wasn't liked/respected enough by enough primarchs to make a good choice for Warmaster. He'd have made the right decisions, even if they were difficult, but alienated people too much in doing so.

It is suspicious that Sanguinius could get through the warp storms but Guilliman couldn't...

i can dig that...yeah he probably wasn't liked as much among the brothers as say Horus or Sanguinius, but he was defintelly one of the most respected for his abilities

Like i mentioned earlier the 7 primarchs that were still alive making Guilliman Lord Commander during the Scouring is testament to that

Also, (not too clued up on post heresy fluff) but I remember reading that Guilliman was made Warmaster by the High lords of terra, not the primarchs. And considering this whole mess started because the high lords had too much power, probably would have annoyed other primarchs. Also "saved" is a pretty strong word lol. I persoanlly think the remaining primarchs would never have turned traitor. Also, if the legions had been allowed to stay together, we wouldn't have nearly so much "traitor excomunicatus" chapters.

The remaining primarchs were:

Dorn: The Emperors Praetorian. Loved the Imperium, litterally no chance of heresy.
Russ: The Emperors Executioner. Canine DNA. Incredibly loyal to their Master.
Vulkan. Sound af. Simple as, too much of a nice guy to go traitor. Loved humans too much.
Corax: Shed too much blood for the Imperium to turn against it. Also "nevermore"? if that isn't loyalty, idk what is.
Guilliman: If he was the High Lord of Terra, what could possibly make him turn? Also mega loyal to the Imperium and his brothers.
Khan: Well, this ones kind of difficult. If he thought it was for the benefit of the human race...maybe.
The Lion: *insert Fallen joke here* but in all seriousness, this guy was loyal. Look at what he said to curze when he strikes him "with such a low blow"..."I care not what people think today, tommorow or 10,000 years...loyalty is it's own reward."

The Iron Hands: Same as Corax, been through too much, also they despise corruption.
Blood Angels: Do I even need to say anything? Charged across the entire galaxy to fight at the Emperors side and then lost their primarch to that cause. Uber loyal.

I can't see where Guilliman thought the risk was. They had all proved their loyalty beyond doubt. Instead, he splits the legions up and now we have thousands of space marines go heretic everyday. This wouldn't have happened with the Primarchs prescene.

did Russ and Khan like each other, they seem to have the same personality

Khan definitely disliked Russ. Khan was very keen for his people to rise above their barbaric beginnings and become cultured.

To him, Russ and his wolves revelled in their barbarism.

As an AVID fluffmonger I'd like to throw my two bits out.

1. Lion el Johnson: Horus and Sanguinius (In False Gods I think) discussed the coronation and both commented on mild passing surprise that The Lion and Gulliman ("Ha! That stuffed shirt!" I think Sanguinius said that) had not been selected. Gulliman was second only to Horus in victories, but The Dark Angels were rapidly catching up. But (as is seen in a lot of any of the books featuring The Lion) it is clear that the Master of the First lacks empathy, and an ability to understand certain basic human emotion. Speculation can lead in numerous directions, however Loyalty could also be a chink in the defenses that an insidious group like the Word Bearers could influence. The taint of Chaos corrupts after all.(f-f-f-fall of Caliban looms as an indicator as well for post heresy) During the Heresy He mighta been a good choice, The Kahn bore him no ill will, and though Russ resented him, he respected him.
2. The fact that his records were expunged tells it's own story.
3. Fulgrim: Pride cometh...cometh....before something. I had something for this. And Fulgrim was already in trouble what with that sword he had "Laer"in around his quarters. (Fulgrim, Through a mirror Cracked) On top of that eventually his constant state of seeking perfection would have led him and/or his legion to
4. Perturabo: Nnnope. Consumed by pride as he was, his resentment of Dorn and open scorn of the abilities of his brother and razing Olyimpia kinda makes me think that again pride would have made him turn on Dorn and forcing him into the footsloggiest meatgrinders he could find. Payback's a mother. (All of the shorties staring the IW)
5.The Khan: Didn't want the title. Didn't particularly care for the Imperium one way or another either. Wasn't a fan of his father that much but he swore an oath to protect his father. (Scars)
6. Leman Russ: (edited after cramming through Burning of Prospero, A Thousand Sons) Russ didn't reeeeally want it, as he pretty much knew his place in the hierarchy (something something rhymes with Dextercutioner). Post heresy would have been...difficult as he went crusading into the Eye. (Burning of Prospero)
7. Rogal Dorn: May I just say that somewhere...I don't know if I can say it here, but somewhere out there there's a magical place called "Google" where there exists an ancient card catalogue wherein the document "Dornian Heresy" can be searched. Although if Dorn had been made warmaster, too many other primarchs resented him for him to lead. Alpharius, Corax and...well most everyone who was voted "Better than him" Banished a chapter for saying "Hey what if foreshadowing is a thing" and suggesting SM practice fighting SM (So many books that he's in)
8. Night Haunter: You know the thing about fear? People may live damn dreary fearful lives but the trains sure ran on time. Additionally Night Haunter was resented, pitied, and disrespected by almost all of his brothers. The destruction of Nostromo might have been prevented buuuut..."Human Fear does smell so very fine." Despite how much he's my favorite primarch, no.
9. Sanguinius: I'm not bashing on anyone's legion or anything, buuuuuuuuuuuuut Horus feared the "Red Angel" as an excellent indicator that the Angel was a direct threat to Horus. Additionally, how far would Sanguinius go to save his sons from the thirst? How exploitable could that be? Plus, "Hey, check out the mutant!" makes "Burn the Mutant" a bit difficult to sell. (Fear to Tread)
10: Ferrus Manus: mmmmokay but why? Mechanical tromping feet sure, better relations with the Mechanicum, sure, but in the long run more machine than man becomes a problem. Ethics and all. Although undeniably loyal (See: Clobberin time that he lost in "Fulgrim")
11. See above. Numero 2
12. Angron: I'm trying to see how a bloodthirsty murdermachine complete with "agree or I'll bash you," methodology. That methodology is a great way to get your advisers to take you out. War on the...warmaster. wouldn't have had as much clout as Horus, but he would have had a few defenders. "You swore to follow the warmaster. I swore to defend him" kinda stuff.
13: Gulliman: As much as I resent him he was another good choice. He knew he couldn't rule imperium 2 and actively searched for a figurehead to run it. (Unremembered empire)
14:Mortarion: No regard for life. No regards for humans. Not the person you want in charge of humans.
15. Magnus: Loyal. You know, til the Wolves nearly wiped the Thousand Sons out. spent a lot of time looking into the warp, maybe maybe not supposed to sit in the golden throne. But the fact remained that he was probably not deserving of what he got.
17:Lorgar: Idolized the Emperor as a god despite being told not too several times before being censored. Also? The first Primarch to Fall.
18: Vulkan. Didn't want the title, more content to work on his Father's glorious ideal. Had a chapter to rebuild post heresy.
19: Corax: Didn't want to rule at all. His method of combat was also laughed at by many of his brothers. Dorn included.Was quite broken Post-heresy, wouldn't make a great leader
20: Alpharius: Too new, too brash and took too many self assured risks.

The wolves also resented it.

Untrue, they were perfectly conscious that it was never the fate (or Wyrd) of Russ to be Warmaster.

I don't know if I can say it here, but somewhere out there there's a magical place called "Google" where there exists an ancient card catalogue wherein the document "Dornian Heresy" can be searched.

Dorn wasn't Warmaster in the Dornian Heresy though, Horus was.

Also, the whole "burn the mutant" thing clearly worked fine. No one resented or disrespected sanguinius, no on would ever qustion his loyalty to the emperor. Also, Sanguinius only had to save his sons because of Ka'bandha, whom he would never have met if not for Horus. Yes, there were a few isolated incidents of the red thirst, but it was a much smaller problem before then. So if Sanguinius had been appointed Warmaster=don't go to signus=don't meet ka'bandha=don't make the red thirst 10x worse= no problem and nothing to expolit. Also the Dornian Heresy isn't evidence for the fact that he would have gone heretic. It's a fanfic. The idea that Fulgrim would have gone heretic as a way to "achieve perfection" is kind of ludicrous. The Great Crusade lasted 200+ years and there isn't even one account of Fulgrim getting into a fight with any of the primarchs. He even manages to calm down angron after horus is appointed warmaster. That doesn't speak of a guy who is willing to fight his brothers to prove a point. Also, Vulkan didn't rebuild his chapter post heresy. He went missing.

Cassor the Damned wrote:
Also, the whole "burn the mutant" thing clearly worked fine. No one resented or disrespected sanguinius, no on would ever qustion his loyalty to the emperor. Also, Sanguinius only had to save his sons because of Ka'bandha, whom he would never have met if not for Horus. Yes, there were a few isolated incidents of the red thirst, but it was a much smaller problem before then. So if Sanguinius had been appointed Warmaster=don't go to signus=don't meet ka'bandha=don't make the red thirst 10x worse= no problem and nothing to expolit. Also the Dornian Heresy isn't evidence for the fact that he would have gone heretic. It's a fanfic. The idea that Fulgrim would have gone heretic as a way to "achieve perfection" is kind of ludicrous. The Great Crusade lasted 200+ years and there isn't even one account of Fulgrim getting into a fight with any of the primarchs. He even manages to calm down angron after horus is appointed warmaster. That doesn't speak of a guy who is willing to fight his brothers to prove a point. Also, Vulkan didn't rebuild his chapter post heresy. He went missing.

Sanguinius specifically points out that the Red Thirst was becoming more and more common years before he ever encountered Ka'Bandha. A possible cure for the Red Thirst is one of the things Horus used to bait Sanguinius into going to Signus in the first place, they both knew it was a growing problem.

However, the battle with the Nephilim in Fear to Tread caused the entire Blood Angels Legion to be deployed. In this battle, only one Blood Angel Marine fell to the thirst. That's a 1/120,000 fall rate. Per battle. Easily disguised as "got blown to bits by a plasma cannon" . It is a growing problem, but it wasn't a threat to the legion and a possile means of extinction until Ka'bandha.

Cassor the Damned wrote:
However, the battle with the Nephilim in Fear to Tread caused the entire Blood Angels Legion to be deployed. In this battle, only one Blood Angel Marine fell to the thirst. That's a 1/120,000 fall rate. Per battle. Easily disguised as "got blown to bits by a plasma cannon" . It is a growing problem, but it wasn't a threat to the legion and a possile means of extinction until Ka'bandha.

Sanguinius was already quite scared of it, that is telling.

Well yeah, he'd experienced the red thirst himself on baal. Seeing your sons go flying rodent gak crazy is always going to make you scared. But the reason he was afraid wasn't because of the attrition it was causing on the BA legion, but because he was scared about the Emperor finding out. The only other person outside the BA who knew about the thirst was Horus. If Horus wasn't warmaster, he wouldn't have gone Heretic and sent Sanguinius to signus, so ka bandha wouldn't have made it worse. If Sanguinius was warmaster and Horus his best friend, Horus would never try to exploit Sanguinius through it. He knew about the curse 100 years before the Heresy and never tried to exploit it. So Sanguinius would have been fine.

I think we just fundamentally disagree on the nature of the Red Thirst and what Ka'Bandha did. I feel like the Red Thirst was always going to become as prevalent as it is now, whether they encountered Ka'Bandha or not. I think Ka'Bandha just demonstrated to Sanguinius what it was going to become.

I think so yeah, I believe that the Red Thirst may have become a big problem for the BA, but no where near to the extent that it is now. I think it was Ka'bandha who made the red thirst the problem it is today because I think it says in collected visions that that Ka'bandha "unleashed something dark in the BA psyche", this to me means he magnified the problem. This is supported in Fear to Tread when he says to Sanguinius something along the lines of "I won't kill you now Angel, but I will give you a wound that will forever fester" then he enchants his axe, kills awhole company of BA at once and unleashes the Red Thirst. But we're both entitled to our opinions and you've made some really good points so I'll definetly be thinking about this topic alot over the next few days lol

Ya know, given Angron's obsession with brotherhood and Curze's ability to see the future, either one of them would have made fantastic Warmasters if they hadn't landed on the two shittiest planets imaginable.

In comparison, every other Primarch had it easy.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
Ya know, given Angron's obsession with brotherhood and Curze's ability to see the future, either one of them would have made fantastic Warmasters if they hadn't landed on the two shittiest planets imaginable.

In comparison, every other Primarch had it easy.

Agreed. Angron for president!

Also, reminds me of this fantastic excerpt:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
Ya know, given Angron's obsession with brotherhood and Curze's ability to see the future, either one of them would have made fantastic Warmasters if they hadn't landed on the two shittiest planets imaginable.

In comparison, every other Primarch had it easy.

I don't think Corax had it easy, he was pretty much in the same situation as Angron, without an archeo tech device planted in his head

Engrenages wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
Ya know, given Angron's obsession with brotherhood and Curze's ability to see the future, either one of them would have made fantastic Warmasters if they hadn't landed on the two shittiest planets imaginable.

In comparison, every other Primarch had it easy.

I don't think Corax had it easy, he was pretty much in the same situation as Angron, without an archeo tech device planted in his head

He was taken in by people that cared about him.

Alpharius. Turns the whole imperium into one big mind fudge

Obviously Horus is 1

I do think Ferrus is probably a decent 2nd pick. You know what you're going to get, and hes stable and reliable. He tends to get the whole machine cult/body mutilation thing wrongly attributed to him. He mentions (in Fulgrim I think) that at some point in the future he was going to put a stop to the whole "become the machine" craze at some point. The one novella (i think its called Promethean creed), where he leads a strike force with Sallies and DG, along with the whole dauntless few club shows hes definitely in the top 5.

At the end of the day there are only thing the Emperor needs in the Warmaster is to hold the Primarchs together as a team and conquer quickly. Based on the events of Master of Mankind, I believe the Emp is much more aware of each Primarchs inherent flaws than they realize. If he knows about the red thirst than that for me disqualifies Sanguinus from a Warmaster role.

 EmpNortonII wrote:


In comparison, every other Primarch had it easy.

I was going to say that Alpharius probably had it worse, but maybe he didnt. We dont know. Also he had Omegon to keep him company.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
Ya know, given Angron's obsession with brotherhood and Curze's ability to see the future, either one of them would have made fantastic Warmasters if they hadn't landed on the two shittiest planets imaginable.

Curzes ability to see the future is fatalistic with him knowing the emperor will kill him. If he actually believed good things could happen to him, he would be an amazing leader.