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Now, I know I'm asking the impossible but I'm gonna ask anyway, please don't make this into one of "those" threads where we just bash on other people's primarchs and fanboy about our own xD I was just wondering who people thought would have been a better Warmaster before, during or after the Heresy. The only rule is that you have to explain your reasoning.

Now, I'm obviously biased but I think that before the Heresy Sanguinius or the Lion would have been the best Warmaster as Lorgar states that Sanguinius is loyal out of "perfect fear" for what his wings mean. Because of this he would never have betrayed the Emperor and never fall to Chaos. The same is somewhat true of the Lion who says to Curze that during his time on Caliban many daemons came to him and tried to turn him to Chaos, and calls Curze weak for falling for their lies.

During the Heresy I would have gone with Dorn, the Lion or Sanguinius. Dorn because he is the Emperors Praetorian so it might be a good idea to have him leading what is essentially a fighting retreat to Terra throughout the Heresy. The Lion because he is imho the best General the loyalists had and both Horus and Gulliman both looked up to him, those are some pretty badass credentials. Sanguinius for his sheer martial ability and his inspiring presence. Horus believed he should have been Warmaster and was more scared of him than anyone. Would have scared him to see Sanguinius named Warmaster.

Post Heresy has to go to either Gulliman, as his ability as a statesman and his codex astartes has probably saved the Imperium from multiple civil wars since. Failing that I would have put Vulkan on the throne (not sure if he was alive at this point) as he most embodied the will of the Emperor

However, some big no-no's for the post of original and post heresy Warmaster are, to me, Russ and Dorn. Dorn because he was so unlikable, he was just to stoic and stubborn and not charismatic enough to be a Warmaster. Russ because his hatred of psykers would have cost the loyalists the war and because he just wasn't the best tactician, general statesmen or warrior in my eyes. There were better options all over.


Looking forward to your opinions

Horus was the best...it was the emperor's fate to fall and the Ruinous Powers to Rise! All hail Pappa Nurgle!

Guilliman missed the biggest fight in the history of mankind and then wrote a book on how everybody should fight. Seeing as only one other primarch wrote a book (that wasn't even about fighting) and quickly did exactly what his book said not to do Guilliman is clearly the most qualified.

Guilliman would have been the best Warmaster.
His Legion were the most successful and with his guiding hand the other Legions could benefit from that success too.

Yeah I don't think Guilliman would have been the best Warmaster. His issue with that is the same as Dorn's: not being charismatic enough to lead the other Primarchs. He would have been a very good quartermaster though...

I think Sanguinius is the only real candidate, although the Lion would probably do well too. The former was loved, the latter respected enough to lead.

 Nerak wrote:
Guilliman missed the biggest fight in the history of mankind and then wrote a book on how everybody should fight. Seeing as only one other primarch wrote a book (that wasn't even about fighting) and quickly did exactly what his book said not to do Guilliman is clearly the most qualified.

A battle unfought is a battle won.

Codex Astartes by Guilliman (HH edition).

Horus as the best Primarch, hence why he was actually chosen.

Then Sanguinus - even Horus admits this.

I'd personally say Guilliman - more organised as a leader than Dorn and far less prone to wasting troops (Iron Cage incident), better at governance than Lion - his only lacking point is in charisma - which really none of the other Primarchs, perhaps barring Fulgrim or Vulkan matched, and neither of those Primarchs were noted for generalship. Guilliman would not be a first choice, but if Horus and Sanguinus were out of the question, I go to the commander of the XIIIth each time.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Horus as the best Primarch, hence why he was actually chosen.

Then Sanguinus - even Horus admits this.

This.

What about Perturabo ? IIRC, he truly thinks he is the best suited.

 godardc wrote:
What about Perturabo ? IIRC, he truly think he is the best suited.

Perturabo would have been a good choice if he was more personable, remember his first act as Primarch was to decimate his legion, who had a successful track record. Too many of the other primarchs wouldn't have respected him as war master. Similar to the Lion, all the right attributes on the battlefield, but he was a poor judge of character off field.

Horus was the only real option, as he was the only one with all the necessary traits and respect.

I think my problem with Gulliman as Warmaster is that he already had his own Empire - Ultramar. So I imagine it would be quite difficult to be Leader of Ultramar, Primarch of the Ultramarines and Warmaster of the Imperium. I think Gulliman is also wildly overestimated as a General, yes he did write the codex but even he admits it isn't infallible. Also, it says in the Dark Angels codex and says at several points throughout the HH series that the most triumphs went to Horus, the Lion, Russ and they don't even mention the Ultramarines. I'm sure they were 4th, just for their sheer size. But considering the fact people want Gulliman because he was the best General, that just doesn't seem to be the case. Also, he didn't get on with anyone. Corax, Alpharius, Curze, Angron and Lorgar all hated his guts. There is no way they would have followed his orders and might even have rebelled if they saw Gulliman become Warmaster.

Dorn would make a good choice as he has that whole "unbreakable" thing going on, but the problem with Dorn is that when he does finally crack, he shatters. Lead his troops into a slaughter, let Gulliman break his legion, wore a pain glove and then got himself killed by chaos marines. Also, very unlikable personality with Pertuarbo and Curze hating him and Sigismund admitting to himself that Dorn had a "Frustrating persona" Because of this, I think he would have been a bad warmaster before the heresy (no one liked him) good during the heresy (unbreakable) but bad after the Heresy (broken)

It states in multiple sources that isn't the dark angels book that the Ultramarines were second only to the Sons of Horus in compliances. It says this in book four, in index Astartes, and in the Space Marines codex.

As for Primarchs, the Lion was a brooding psychopath, the wolf a barbarian, and Horus fell easily. Sanguinius was the one Primarch everyone genuinely liked, and would have been the perfect choice for Warmaster. The Warmasters job was less running the individual battles and campaigns as much as it was getting the very different primarchs and Legions to work together, which Sanguinius could have done easily.

Guilliman was the best Warmaster after the heresy, as he did what he needed to - picked up the pieces and ensured the Imperium survived. That no Huron could come along and usurp an entire Legion and send the Imperium into a civil war. (Coincidently, the Astral Claws had the same type of Chapter tactics as the Dark Angels have... stubborn and hit and run bikes.. hmmm)

So, pre Heresy the best Warmaster would have been Sanguinius, as he was safe from chaos and loved by them all - he was just not favoured by the Emperor, since Horus was the first son, and everyone knows the oldest is always the favourite.

Post Heresy, Guilliman was the best, as he was the only Primarch that could lay the foundations for a state to last ten thousand years.

Ghazghkull Thrakka. He'd show those umiez who's da boss. I mean those other umiez who are the betrayers. Than he'd bash the rest of umiez.

Post Heresy Gulliman was the best choice imo, with the only real competition being Vulkan.

However, I think Ferrus Manus would have made a great Warmaster through the entire thing. Pre Heresy- I don't think he would have actually fell, he was litterally unbreakable in every sense of the word. During the Heresy - This is debatable as his anger lead to his death on Istavaan V when he kept on pushing forward. However, he might not have been loved on the same level of Sanguinius or Vulkan, but he was well liked. Horus lamented to Ferrus' skull that he didn't have any good generals on his side (I think he wanted Ferrus very badly considering he was the only one he sent another primarch to convert to) and he was a member of Gullimans Dauntless Few. He probably had a few favours to call in with his brothers as well considering just how many weapons he made for them. Post Heresy- He would have eradicated the traitors during the Great Scouring and wouldn't have given up until he had killed every single one.

This actually brings up an interesting topic, what primarchs would have fallen to chaos if they had seen the vision of 40k that Horus saw and which ones would have resisted?

 koooaei wrote:
Ghazghkull Thrakka. He'd show those umiez who's da boss. I mean those other umiez who are the betrayers. Than he'd bash the rest of umiez.

"Wez gunna build da WAAAGH!!!, believe me itz gunna be uge. Wez gonna build a bigly WAAAGH!!! and da Tau are gunna pay fer it!"

Cassor the Damned wrote:


This actually brings up an interesting topic, what primarchs would have fallen to chaos if they had seen the vision of 40k that Horus saw and which ones would have resisted?

I am assuming that whichever primarch sees the visions wouldn't see any statues of themselves/their closest brothers
I would imagine that almost all of them would be freaked out by the visions, except for the ultra-loyal few (Dorn, Russ). Vulkan would probably be okay with it too, seeing it as humans taking their proper place.
The sneaky ones like Corax, Curze, and Alpharius/Omegon would probably get over it, as they are already mostly ignored now and using that to their advantage. Khan is also used to being ignored, so I would imagine he'll get over it.
Pert, Angron, Mort and maybe Manus would all go nuts, but only Angron I think would be willing to start something heretical. Mort and Pert would just stew, get more antisocial, less liked and such. I could actually see Pert seeing such visions and ending up being driven to suicide.
I should think that Guilleman would be really upset, but he's enough of an adult to go and talk to daddy about it. Funnily enough I think that Sanguinius and Lion would have freaked out with the visions (Sangie would probably conclude his legion was purged, as we know that was a worry for him. Lion has trust issues, he'd begin to think even daddy was against him)
No idea really on how Fulgrim (his ego would be shattered), Lorgar (might actually accept the religious 40k), Magnus would react.
We can ignore Horus, as we know how the visions turned out for him.

Have you ever heard about The Dornian Heresy ?
It's The Horus Heresy, but totally flip flopped (does this word actually exist ?).
A very interesting story, I think it is still available somewhere on the internet.

 godardc wrote:
Have you ever heard about The Dornian Heresy ?
It's The Horus Heresy, but totally flip flopped (does this word actually exist ?).
A very interesting story, I think it is still available somewhere on the internet.

I do, and in a way the global synopsis is in a way perhaps even better than the official Horus Heresy one.

Horus. He was not named Warmaster because he was incompetent, nor because he was the Emperor's favourite. Horus was named Warmaster because he was the best. All of the Primarchs had major character flaws and weaknesses, all of them could have fallen to Chaos. Horus was the greatest strategist and the best diplomat of all Primarchs, qualities that made him perfect for the role of warmaster. Naming any other Primarch warmaster would not have made sense.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Horus as the best Primarch, hence why he was actually chosen.

Then Sanguinus - even Horus admits this.

Horus spend something like 50 years with the Emperor before they found another primarch. He was the one that knew big E the best, the one that big E trusted the most. He was the best all around. Sadly he turned, but he turned because of the power he was given.
Name any of the other primarchs warmaster and they would probably fall too. All except Curze, I doubt Curze would have accepted the title, particularly with the visions he had, knowing what would happen. Also spacebatman doenst need a title.

I feel like Horus fell because of one thing. In the novel False Gods he says each primarch carries a part of his father within him, whether it is his battle lust, psychic power or grim determination. Horus says he inherited his fathers ambition. Now if there's one thing you don't do, it's make a guy who's biggest characteristic is ambition your right hand man. It will not end well. Now, this probably rules out any primarch who coveted the Warmaster position. If you're ambitious enough to be Warmaster, you'll be easily swayed to turn from the Emperor as you're mind will want to accept the visions of 40k so that you can launch the heresy in good concsience.

Straight away, the people we can rule out as "You should never be Warmaster because you're so damn ambitious" are Pertuarbo, Horus and the Lion.

However, the Lion may not have fell as the Lion actually says to Curze in the "Pharos" book something along the lines of "I heard many false promises and lies from the skinless lips of daemons and monsters in the forests of Caliban. I rejected them all, you are weak fot falling for their lies." So the Lion had experience with chaos, and didn't fall. Would he have fell on Davin? I don't know, but I personally don't think so.

Sanguinius, the brother Horus always thought should be Warmaster because as all the primarchs carried a part of the Emperors soul within them, Sanguinius possessed it all. By this reasoning, Sanguinius was the best primarch and not Horus. He was the most like the Emperor and therefore least likely to fall to chaos. Also, he faced TWO greater daemons of TWO gods and still didn't fall. Kyriss says to him that Sanguinius is basically part daemon and that the Gods gave him wings when he traveled through the warp in his gestation capsule. This just makes him madder. Lorgar also states "Sanguinius is loyal out of perfect fear, he fears what his wings mean" so Sanguinius would rather have died then proved all the haters right and joined chaos. Even when he knows he will die on the vengeful spirit, he still goes. Not only that, but HE tries to sway HORUS back to the side of the Imperium. If that's not loyalty, I don't know what is.

Guilliman would have been the perfect XO. Exactly as he placed himself in Imperium Secundus. The guy behind the curtain.

The top leader of a military organization makes the "hard calls", but in the end, it is typically the XO who deals with the little stuff, day in and day out.

Horus was the best leader. All the others, bar Sanguinius, lacked the required political and charismatic skills. Making warriors genetically modified and indoctrinated to obey your every order follow you is no great task, but when they had to deal with each other, they wouldn't be able to make them work together. Possibly Fulgrim, if he hadn't fallen to Slaanesh, would have had the required real politik skills. Of all of them, Curze would have been the worst due to his "fragile" mental state, especially once it started to deteriorate.

While I'm biased, Alpharius Omegon may have been a very able one if their doctrines matched the fluff. For all their vaunted superiority, they always got their asses handed to them, with the Dropsite Massacre being the exception (or if they were fighting themselves). As for all the others, Alpharius would have needed a leader to manipulate, similar to what Guilliman wanted for Sanguinius in Imperium Secundus, as his own charisma appears to have been lacking.

 godardc wrote:
What about Perturabo ? IIRC, he truly thinks he is the best suited.

So did the Lion, Angron, Mortarion etc etc.

Cassor the Damned wrote:
I feel like Horus fell because of one thing. In the novel False Gods he says each primarch carries a part of his father within him, whether it is his battle lust, psychic power or grim determination. Horus says he inherited his fathers ambition. Now if there's one thing you don't do, it's make a guy who's biggest characteristic is ambition your right hand man. It will not end well. Now, this probably rules out any primarch who coveted the Warmaster position. If you're ambitious enough to be Warmaster, you'll be easily swayed to turn from the Emperor as you're mind will want to accept the visions of 40k so that you can launch the heresy in good concsience.

Straight away, the people we can rule out as "You should never be Warmaster because you're so damn ambitious" are Pertuarbo, Horus and the Lion.

However, the Lion may not have fell as the Lion actually says to Curze in the "Pharos" book something along the lines of "I heard many false promises and lies from the skinless lips of daemons and monsters in the forests of Caliban. I rejected them all, you are weak fot falling for their lies." So the Lion had experience with chaos, and didn't fall. Would he have fell on Davin? I don't know, but I personally don't think so.

Sanguinius, the brother Horus always thought should be Warmaster because as all the primarchs carried a part of the Emperors soul within them, Sanguinius possessed it all. By this reasoning, Sanguinius was the best primarch and not Horus. He was the most like the Emperor and therefore least likely to fall to chaos. Also, he faced TWO greater daemons of TWO gods and still didn't fall. Kyriss says to him that Sanguinius is basically part daemon and that the Gods gave him wings when he traveled through the warp in his gestation capsule. This just makes him madder. Lorgar also states "Sanguinius is loyal out of perfect fear, he fears what his wings mean" so Sanguinius would rather have died then proved all the haters right and joined chaos. Even when he knows he will die on the vengeful spirit, he still goes. Not only that, but HE tries to sway HORUS back to the side of the Imperium. If that's not loyalty, I don't know what is.

Even as a Sanguinius fan, I think Chaos still would have turned him had he been Warmaster. They tricked him into sacrificing his body to another daemon on Signus, and the only thing that saved him from possession was that another Blood Angel jumped into the pit before he could.

Yeah I feel that Sanguinius' big flaw is probably innocence. In addition to the above example, he tries to convince Horus to come back into the light and ends up getting killed.

I'm not certain his general goodness would have served him well as warmaster thinking about it. The universe of 40k is too grimdark for that to be the case.

The Lion was the best strategist but an awful judge of people. When you're treating war like a chess game, he's superb, but in a civil war, where the enemy is ill-defined at best, and the people you thought were your allies at worst, and even the people who are "on your side" have their own agenda and disagree about your methods.

As much as I want to say Gulliman for all the reasons listed above (He is, after all, essentially the architect of the Imperium!), the one who had nearly as much tactical skill, better at personal combat, and who oozed charisma enough to win over even leman Russ was the unsung hero:

Jaghatai Khan.

He embodies the light-strike angle of the Marines more than anyone else, but was a surprisingly good society-builder as well. His personal combat skills were epic and, again, the man could *lead*.

So, love ol' big blue, but, he's the XO. Khan is the Warmaster you need.

ANGRON!

Actually Angron might not be such a bad idea. No-one would risk disobeying him for risk of getting their face caved in...

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
Actually Angron might not be such a bad idea. No-one would risk disobeying him for risk of getting their face caved in...

Always nice to have a supreme leader who doesn't understand subtly, has no skill at politics or treachery.