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Traditio wrote:

"Satisfied but want improvement" falls under the fourth option.

Option three is "Dissatisfied, but not so dissatisfied that I'm on the verge of quitting.".

Currently, the poll is roughly 70 percent of respondents saying that they are not happy about the current state of the game.

Traditio wrote:
The fact that there are three "no" answers and one "yes" answer is not in and of itself a bias in favor of a no answer. If you're satisfied with the game, the fact that there's only one way of saying "yes, I'm satisfied with the game" isn't going to magically make you click on a "no, I am not satisfied" option.

And this (the bolded part) is exactly why I argued for a second 'satisfied' option in the first place. The fourth option is completely devoid of any nuance, which means that everyone in the 'satisfied but not 100%' is automatically not going to choose that option. Instead, they probably went for the third option, which could easily be re-worded as "I am satisfied with the game but would like to see changes" and the votes would (probably) still be (largely) the same.

If we would count the third option as a positive rather than a negative, the results would clearly show that people are generally happy with the game as it is, although a majority would like to see some elements changed.

 Traditio wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Traditio wrote:
If you're satisfied with the game, the fact that there's only one way of saying "yes, I'm satisfied with the game"...

This is false though. As someone already pointed out there is more to say then just "I'm satisfied" such as "I'm satisfied but I'd like the game to be better" or "I'm satisfied but my gaming group isn't".

Learn 2 logic.

Logically speaking, "but" just means "and." So if you're saying "I'm satisfied, but I'd like the game to be better," what you are saying is:

1. I am satisfied

AND

2. I would like the game to be better

If you're saying "I'm satisfied, but my gaming group isn't," what you're saying is:

1. I am satisfied

AND

2. My gaming group is not satisfied.

Note that in both of those instances, you are saying that you are, in fact, satisfied. Therefore, the fourth poll option is for you.

This isn't fething rocket science.

Then why have more than one option for Dissatisfied?

 Traditio wrote:

Learn 2 logic.

This isn't fething rocket science.

Why do people participate in Traditio threads?

Ezra Tyrius wrote:And this (the bolded part) is exactly why I argued for a second 'satisfied' option in the first place. The fourth option is completely devoid of any nuance, which means that everyone in the 'satisfied but not 100%' is automatically not going to choose that option. Instead, they probably went for the third option, which could easily be re-worded as "I am satisfied with the game but would like to see changes" and the votes would (probably) still be (largely) the same.

If we would count the third option as a positive rather than a negative, the results would clearly show that people are generally happy with the game as it is, although a majority would like to see some elements changed.

"I am satisfied with the game but would like to see changes" includes the words "I am satisfied." That's the fourth option.

At any rate, we have people in the thread commenting who selected the third option and are clearly saying that they are not satisfied with the current state of the game.

Your attempt to misrepresent the current poll results is just GW cheerleading.

 Traditio wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Traditio wrote:
If you're satisfied with the game, the fact that there's only one way of saying "yes, I'm satisfied with the game"...

This is false though. As someone already pointed out there is more to say then just "I'm satisfied" such as "I'm satisfied but I'd like the game to be better" or "I'm satisfied but my gaming group isn't".

Learn 2 logic.

Logically speaking, "but" just means "and." So if you're saying "I'm satisfied, but I'd like the game to be better," what you are saying is:

1. I am satisfied

AND

2. I would like the game to be better

If you're saying "I'm satisfied, but my gaming group isn't," what you're saying is:

1. I am satisfied

AND

2. My gaming group is not satisfied.

Note that in both of those instances, you are saying that you are, in fact, satisfied. Therefore, the fourth poll option is for you.

This isn't fething rocket science.

Why is this different then your No options? All 3 options say the same thing "No, I am not satisfied". In all 3 instances you are saying, that you are, in fact, not satisfied. Yet you felt the need to create 3 separate options for the same answer.

Where is the logic in that?

It should honestly just be,

-Yes I am
-No, post opinion
-Indifferent post why.

 kronk wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

Learn 2 logic.

This isn't fething rocket science.

Why do people participate in Traditio threads?

Because it's entertaining.

That's why I'm doing it at the moment

 kronk wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

Learn 2 logic.

This isn't fething rocket science.

Why do people participate in Traditio threads?

I think its a combination of morbid curiosity and hope that it wont turn into a gak fest. I mean, initially its a fairly decent question, and can warrant a valid conversations, but it quickly slides into madness.

sieGermans wrote:Then why have more than one option for Dissatisfied?

Because I'm interested in knowing, among people who are dissatisfied, just how dissatisfied they are.

There's a world of difference between "This game is so bad that I don't even play anymore" and "This game is bad, but still worth playing, at least for now."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 kronk wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

Learn 2 logic.

This isn't fething rocket science.

Why do people participate in Traditio threads?

I think its a combination of morbid curiosity and hope that it wont turn into a gak fest. I mean, initially its a fairly decent question, and can warrant a valid conversations, but it quickly slides into madness.

It turns into gak fests because of trolls.

Seriously, people:

If you don't like the thread, if you don't like the poll, or if you don't think that the topic is worth discussing, then go find something better to do than troll my threads.

 Traditio wrote:

sieGermans wrote:Then why have more than one option for Dissatisfied?

Because I'm interested in knowing, among people who are dissatisfied, just how dissatisfied they are.

There's a world of difference between "This game is so bad that I don't even play anymore" and "This game is bad, but still worth playing, at least for now."

That why there should only really be a

yes
no
other

Then have them post why the are upset about it or not happy.

For example, i could say, hey overall im happy with the game, but not the models or vise versa. From a game point i could yes, and post why or no and post why.

I would almost say the poll is similar to "Leading the witness."

 kronk wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

Learn 2 logic.

This isn't fething rocket science.

Why do people participate in Traditio threads?

I've been wondering this for fething months.

 kronk wrote:
Why do people participate in Traditio threads?

I genuinely thought that he might obtain some interesting data from this for all of us without turning it into a troll poll.

You can slap me for my failures now

 Traditio wrote:


It turns into gak fests because of trolls.

Seriously, people:

If you don't like the thread, if you don't like the poll, or if you don't think that the topic is worth discussing, then go find something better to do than troll my threads.

Pretty sure this is just desserts...

 Traditio wrote:


It turns into gak fests because of trolls.

Seriously, people:

If you don't like the thread, if you don't like the poll, or if you don't think that the topic is worth discussing, then go find something better to do than troll my threads.

Tradito people you troll you because you make it very easy for people to troll you.

 Traditio wrote:

Jacksmiles wrote:

 Ezra Tyrius wrote:
Looking at the results as they are at the moment, I'd say that the 'satisfied but would like to see improvement'-people mostly went with option 3, as that option can be read as such. Still, it certainly wouldn't hurt to change option 3's wording or add another 'satisfied' option.

But that would mean the poll might not lean in the OP's favor. We can't have that.

The poll, just like all previous polls, are designed specifically for the OP to self-affirm their bias. Everyone agrees, don't you see? Because if you don't, you're wrong.

This is so asinine!

The fact that there are three "no" answers and one "yes" answer is not in and of itself a bias in favor of a no answer. If you're satisfied with the game, the fact that there's only one way of saying "yes, I'm satisfied with the game" isn't going to magically make you click on a "no, I am not satisfied" option.

If I put up a poll question asking: "When is the last time you beat your wife," had 9 answers affirming that the respondent had beaten his wife, and only had one answer saying "I've never beaten my wife," what percent of people do you think would select the "no" answer?

So there are varying degrees of dissatisfaction, but no varying degrees of satisfaction? THAT is asinine. Par for the course with these polls.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Traditio wrote:


It turns into gak fests because of trolls.

Seriously, people:

If you don't like the thread, if you don't like the poll, or if you don't think that the topic is worth discussing, then go find something better to do than troll my threads.

Tradito people you troll you because you make it very easy for people to troll you.

People don't even troll him, these polls are the real trolls. Remember the time he admitted to trolling? Pepperidge Farm remembers.

A better poll option would have been something akin to a Likert scale. Something like:

How satisfied are you with 40k?

1) Not satisfied at all
2) Rarely satisfied
3) Usually satisfied
4) Mostly satisfied
5) Completely satisfied

Note that this particular poll doesn't account for whether the people are in competitive metas or more casual ones, whether they can make time to play, whether it's pickup or narrative play. But it's more fair than the one presented.

What the fourth option does is group all the potential 'satisfied' responses together. It's a weighted answer. Some people might enjoy 40k the way it is, other's might be satisfied but would like improvements made in areas.

I didn't answer the poll btw. Although I would have gone for the fifth option (5) I am not satisfied and have stopped playing and have sold most of my collection, but I am considering starting playing again.

CrownAxe wrote:Why is this different then your No options? All 3 options say the same thing "No, I am not satisfied". In all 3 instances you are saying, that you are, in fact, not satisfied. Yet you felt the need to create 3 separate options for the same answer.

Where is the logic in that?

Yes, I could have added more "yes" options. I also could have only had 1 no option.

That doesn't change the fact that, at the end of the day, there are two, and only two, basic possibilities:

"Yes, I am satisfied."
"No, I am not satisfied."

I chose to add more "no" options because I wanted to assess just how unsatisfied the unsatisfied people are.

I don't really care how satisfied the satisfied people are.

Again, this is not a bias in favor of dissatisfaction. If you're satisfied, then "how dissatisfied are you" isn't relevant to your "yes, I am satisfied" answer.

Seriously, folks. All of this nitpicking and hair-splitting is unnecessary.

 Traditio wrote:

CrownAxe wrote:Why is this different then your No options? All 3 options say the same thing "No, I am not satisfied". In all 3 instances you are saying, that you are, in fact, not satisfied. Yet you felt the need to create 3 separate options for the same answer.

Where is the logic in that?

Yes, I could have added more "yes" options. I also could have only had 1 no option.

That doesn't change the fact that, at the end of the day, there are two, and only two, basic possibilities:

"Yes, I am satisfied."
"No, I am not satisfied."

I chose to add more "no" options because I wanted to assess just how unsatisfied the unsatisfied people are.

I don't really care how satisfied the satisfied people are.

Again, this is not a bias in favor of dissatisfaction. If you're satisfied, then "how dissatisfied are you" isn't relevant to your "yes, I am satisfied" answer.

Seriously, folks. All of this nitpicking and hair-splitting is unnecessary.

You cant just say, I want to assess just how unsatisfied the unsatisfied people are, and then say, i dont care about the satisfied people, then say there is no bias, because you just said there is bias.

If all you cared about is satisfied, just ask

"Why are you dissatisfied with the game right now?"
-Prices
-Rules
-Lore
-Other

Traditio wrote:

sieGermans wrote:Then why have more than one option for Dissatisfied?

Because I'm interested in knowing, among people who are dissatisfied, just how dissatisfied they are.

Then why not make a poll "How dissatisfied are you with 40k?"

Wouldn't that give you the answers you want?

It seems rather unnecessary to include a 'satisfied' option if you want to know how dissatisfied people are.

Your attempt to misrepresent the current poll results is just GW cheerleading.

This is the most hilarious thing I've ever read. I'd exalt it if it wasn't trying to discredit my opinion

 Traditio wrote:

sieGermans wrote:Then why have more than one option for Dissatisfied?

Because I'm interested in knowing, among people who are dissatisfied, just how dissatisfied they are.

There's a world of difference between "This game is so bad that I don't even play anymore" and "This game is bad, but still worth playing, at least for now."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 kronk wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

Learn 2 logic.

This isn't fething rocket science.

Why do people participate in Traditio threads?

I think its a combination of morbid curiosity and hope that it wont turn into a gak fest. I mean, initially its a fairly decent question, and can warrant a valid conversations, but it quickly slides into madness.

It turns into gak fests because of trolls.

Seriously, people:

If you don't like the thread, if you don't like the poll, or if you don't think that the topic is worth discussing, then go find something better to do than troll my threads.

I dig it--that's an understandable desire to have. Indeed, that information would be interesting, and I expect you will get an excellent breakdown of the nuance in negative opinions held by folks who voted negatively in this poll.

I suggest, however, that you might find some interesting reading in Polling methods if you research Priming and Framing when it comes to crafting polls like this. The phenomenon people are pointing out here is that although logically you are totally correct, in practice, polls with more Negative or Positive options than the other have a tendency to skew results.

In this case, you will likely end up with a Worse understanding after reading these results than before you started. For example, people who would otherwise vote that they were satisfied, will now be primed to think about what they dislike, indicating that they are a dissatisfied. However, these individuals, in some optimally crafted polling environment would not typify their perspective that way. Whereby, these folks may not reach the level of saying they would quit.

But it's possible that among non-primes, legitimately dissatisfied people, 100% of them are thinking of quitting! That would be very interesting to discover! But instead, we have a bunch of incorrectly 'dissatisfied' people muddying the results. :(

This is what we are talking about. It's not about GW cheerleading, it's about proper research and polling methods.

I hope this helps.

Frozocrone wrote:Note that this particular poll doesn't account for whether the people are in competitive metas or more casual ones, whether they can make time to play, whether it's pickup or narrative play. But it's more fair than the one presented.

All of that is fething IRRELEVANT to the question of whether or not you are satisfied.

No, the poll isn't designed to assess all possible degrees of satisfaction.

No, that doesn't make the poll flawed or biased.

It just means that it's not tracking those particular nuances. It's not pretending that they don't exist. It's just lumping them together under a broader genus.

The basic answers (namely "yes" and "no") are all there.

Edit:

You know, it's threads like this that make me seriously wonder just how much the dissatisfaction with 40k is actually due to the game, and how much due to the fething player base.

I voted option 3. The game has its problems, but it can be played and be fun as long as everyone involved is on the same page. With tournaments, you usually get that because most people who attend tournaments know what they're signing up for, and they bring their hardest lists. If you're lucky enough to have a regular playing group, you probably wind up with a group consensus of how to play. It's outside of these environments where the game can be most problematic. It can be frustrating to bring a reasonably fluffy TAC list for pickup gaming and wind up facing off against some tourney-champ-wannabe tryhard with his gray plastic army netlist. That's the game at its worst. The game isn't anywhere near balanced enough to make pickup gaming any kind of fun, unless everyone involved is bringing the hardest lists they can, and that sets the bar for entry very high.

 Traditio wrote:

CrownAxe wrote:Why is this different then your No options? All 3 options say the same thing "No, I am not satisfied". In all 3 instances you are saying, that you are, in fact, not satisfied. Yet you felt the need to create 3 separate options for the same answer.

Where is the logic in that?

Yes, I could have added more "yes" options. I also could have only had 1 no option.

That doesn't change the fact that, at the end of the day, there are two, and only two, basic possibilities:

"Yes, I am satisfied."
"No, I am not satisfied."

I chose to add more "no" options because I wanted to assess just how unsatisfied the unsatisfied people are.

I don't really care how satisfied the satisfied people are.

Again, this is not a bias in favor of dissatisfaction. If you're satisfied, then "how dissatisfied are you" isn't relevant to your "yes, I am satisfied" answer.

Seriously, folks. All of this nitpicking and hair-splitting is unnecessary.

It's not hair splitting.

You're getting this response because your poll isn't clear.

70% satisfied is also 30% dissatisfied. So, you can be both satisfied and dissatisfied. According to your poll this falls into answers 1-3.

 Ezra Tyrius wrote:

Traditio wrote:

sieGermans wrote:Then why have more than one option for Dissatisfied?

Because I'm interested in knowing, among people who are dissatisfied, just how dissatisfied they are.

Then why not make a poll "How dissatisfied are you with 40k?"

Wouldn't that give you the answers you want?

It seems rather unnecessary to include a 'satisfied' option if you want to know how dissatisfied people are.

Your attempt to misrepresent the current poll results is just GW cheerleading.

This is the most hilarious thing I've ever read. I'd exalt it if it wasn't trying to discredit my opinion

A poll that asked "How Dissatisfied Are You?" would have been logical (that's that thing OP wants, right, "logic"?), allowed nuance, and avoided being polluted by those whom the OP was not interested in hearing from.

And that last part. Amazing. How about I exalt your post so the statement is still exalted, just not credited to the source?

 Marmatag wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

CrownAxe wrote:Why is this different then your No options? All 3 options say the same thing "No, I am not satisfied". In all 3 instances you are saying, that you are, in fact, not satisfied. Yet you felt the need to create 3 separate options for the same answer.

Where is the logic in that?

Yes, I could have added more "yes" options. I also could have only had 1 no option.

That doesn't change the fact that, at the end of the day, there are two, and only two, basic possibilities:

"Yes, I am satisfied."
"No, I am not satisfied."

I chose to add more "no" options because I wanted to assess just how unsatisfied the unsatisfied people are.

I don't really care how satisfied the satisfied people are.

Again, this is not a bias in favor of dissatisfaction. If you're satisfied, then "how dissatisfied are you" isn't relevant to your "yes, I am satisfied" answer.

Seriously, folks. All of this nitpicking and hair-splitting is unnecessary.

It's not hair splitting.

You're getting this response because your poll isn't clear.

70% satisfied is also 30% dissatisfied. So, you can be both satisfied and dissatisfied. According to your poll this falls into answers 1-3.

It's a binary thing: Either you're satisfied or you are not satisfied. Either the game's "good enough," or it isn't. There's no tertium quid.

 Traditio wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

CrownAxe wrote:Why is this different then your No options? All 3 options say the same thing "No, I am not satisfied". In all 3 instances you are saying, that you are, in fact, not satisfied. Yet you felt the need to create 3 separate options for the same answer.

Where is the logic in that?

Yes, I could have added more "yes" options. I also could have only had 1 no option.

That doesn't change the fact that, at the end of the day, there are two, and only two, basic possibilities:

"Yes, I am satisfied."
"No, I am not satisfied."

I chose to add more "no" options because I wanted to assess just how unsatisfied the unsatisfied people are.

I don't really care how satisfied the satisfied people are.

Again, this is not a bias in favor of dissatisfaction. If you're satisfied, then "how dissatisfied are you" isn't relevant to your "yes, I am satisfied" answer.

Seriously, folks. All of this nitpicking and hair-splitting is unnecessary.

It's not hair splitting.

You're getting this response because your poll isn't clear.

70% satisfied is also 30% dissatisfied. So, you can be both satisfied and dissatisfied. According to your poll this falls into answers 1-3.

It's a binary thing: Either you're satisfied or you are not satisfied. Either the game's "good enough," or it isn't. There's no tertium quid.

Then why not post a yes or no poll if its binary.

 Traditio wrote:
You know, it's thread's like this that make me seriously wonder just how much the dissatisfaction with 40k is actually due to the game, and how much due to the fething player base.

Pretty sure only one person on this thread is actively contributing to the idea that 40k's player base is unpleasant...

Then why three options for not satisfied?

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

CrownAxe wrote:Why is this different then your No options? All 3 options say the same thing "No, I am not satisfied". In all 3 instances you are saying, that you are, in fact, not satisfied. Yet you felt the need to create 3 separate options for the same answer.

Where is the logic in that?

Yes, I could have added more "yes" options. I also could have only had 1 no option.

That doesn't change the fact that, at the end of the day, there are two, and only two, basic possibilities:

"Yes, I am satisfied."
"No, I am not satisfied."

I chose to add more "no" options because I wanted to assess just how unsatisfied the unsatisfied people are.

I don't really care how satisfied the satisfied people are.

Again, this is not a bias in favor of dissatisfaction. If you're satisfied, then "how dissatisfied are you" isn't relevant to your "yes, I am satisfied" answer.

Seriously, folks. All of this nitpicking and hair-splitting is unnecessary.

It's not hair splitting.

You're getting this response because your poll isn't clear.

70% satisfied is also 30% dissatisfied. So, you can be both satisfied and dissatisfied. According to your poll this falls into answers 1-3.

It's a binary thing: Either you're satisfied or you are not satisfied. Either the game's "good enough," or it isn't. There's no tertium quid.

Then why not post a yes or no poll if its binary.

Because amazing mental gymnastics, as always. I recommend to everyone involved to let this thread fade downward. Best of luck!

 Traditio wrote:


It's a binary thing: Either you're satisfied or you are not satisfied. Either the game's "good enough," or it isn't. There's no tertium quid.

Then the options on the poll should have been binary, right?

How about a spectrum? On a scale where 1 is "ready to set my army on fire" and 10 is "Would give my sister's phone number to any GW manager I meet", how satisfied with 40k are you?

Backspacehacker wrote:Then why not post a yes or no poll if its binary.

Poll question: Did you beat your wife today?

1. Yes, and I did it with my bare hands.
2. Yes. I used an instrument to beat her. However, that instrument was something, like a toothbrush or a shoe, which was not likely to leave permanent damage.
3. Yes. I used an instrument to beat her. That instrument had the potential to cause serious damage...like a crowbar.
4. No, I didn't beat my wife today.