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Only 1 IK at 1000pts? You can have 3 IKs at 1000pts!!!!!!!

SJ

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Jackal wrote:
Dok - keep in mind bud that a knight with that layout won't be cheap.
You could easily replace it with the Russ or its variants to have more effect for less cost.

A lot of armies can run things that cause the same damage, if not more for a lot less points.
Some of which are more survivable too.

If someone lacks the firepower to kill a knight then they can't handle most armoured vehicles either.

As I said earlier, if it had higher armour then I could see the issue, but it's fairly low armoured.

The difference between an IK (or any other superheavy vehicle) and say, other tanks such as Russes, Predators or Land Raiders is that you can immobilise and strip the weapons off normal vehicles. You can shake them and you can stun them which can hamper their firepower. And they can only fire at a single target. So you can stop them, strip away the weapons that threaten you or potentially hamper their firepower for a turn or two. If you can immobilise them and assault them they're generally easy pickings as well.

Superheavies?

Immune to Shaken and Stunned. Can't be immobilised. Can't destroy weapons.

Can fire at as many different targets as it has weapons. And if it's a walker? It gets a chance of D stomping all over units.

There's a difference between a player struggling to deal with a Leman Russ or two and having to deal with an IK. With the russes you can strip the threatening weapons off turning them into metal boxes or you can immobilise them and restrict their fields of fire. Hell, with an AP2 or AP1 weapon you can potentially destroy them outright.

A superheavy? That won't do much at all. Even rolling 'destroyed' results in D3 HP being lost.

Superheavies, GCs and D-weapons really have no place in 40k outside of Apocalypse to be honest.

Can't do any of that to an MC, either. You can't even get a D3 wound result vs a MC. Vehicles are junk. SHW are merely functional in a way that walkers should already be.

Whenever your opponent is cool with it.

The part that bothers me a bit is I like rules.
I like them even more if the function in a reasonable way.

It feels strange to discuss if it is ok to use a unit that is specifically included in the game for use.
It would be like saying you can never field a Tie-Defender in X-wing.
Or a Queen in chess since that model is way OP in the game compared to the other pieces.

I know now at this time 40k is more of a scenario sandbox RPG for playing out stories you may have heard of in the fluff.
The days of straight-out-of-the-rules-competitive-play is long over.

I do have to ask the question though: if the game is to be casual and extra rules of etiquette are tacked-on, why should you care if someone fields an IK?
They only wanted to have fun or they would not have fielded it.
It is a proud achievement to get one together, more so if painted: are you going to be TFG and tell them you will not play them because you do not like their model?
How "casual" is this game again?

Ok here is my biggest problem.

When you buy that one thing that you really want to use. Maybe it's just something silly like a Predator or a Dreadnought you painted up.

Then your opponent nukes it turn one.

You had been waiting to use that unit for weeks and the one game you get to play, it just dies.

This is why I hate OP formations and units. They can instantly ruin the game before it even begins.

As for the knight? As long as it isn't RUINING the game, I don't really care. I've fought knights before and they can be hell if you didn't prepare enough heavy weapons/haywire for all those hull points.

I know this rant was kinda off topic, but it's something that's always bothered me.

If someone sunk massive points into an IK i'd laugh while my Celestine cut it in half with 6 strength5 armourbane swings at I7.

 Whitebeard wrote:
Ok here is my biggest problem.

When you buy that one thing that you really want to use. Maybe it's just something silly like a Predator or a Dreadnought you painted up.

Then your opponent nukes it turn one.

You had been waiting to use that unit for weeks and the one game you get to play, it just dies.

This is why I hate OP formations and units. They can instantly ruin the game before it even begins.

As for the knight? As long as it isn't RUINING the game, I don't really care. I've fought knights before and they can be hell if you didn't prepare enough heavy weapons/haywire for all those hull points.

I know this rant was kinda off topic, but it's something that's always bothered me.

What does OP formations and units have to do with losing guys in one turn? I've lost guys in one turn to lucky Defiler shots, hardly OP

Again, vehicles are fragile junk. Expect them to die.

One knight in a 1500 point list is absolutely fine. They're really not that powerful.

I really don't get angst about the superheavies. As it has been pointed out, this game has things that are way more powerful than them. Our local tournament banned superheavies and gargantuans, and as I heard that I instantly knew how that tournament would go: Tau would roflstomp everything with their Riptides. And that's exactly what happened. It is completely absurd to ban things like Imperial Knights and Baneblades and allow Riptides which are way more powerful.

 Whitebeard wrote:
Ok here is my biggest problem.

When you buy that one thing that you really want to use. Maybe it's just something silly like a Predator or a Dreadnought you painted up.

Then your opponent nukes it turn one.

You had been waiting to use that unit for weeks and the one game you get to play, it just dies.

This is why I hate OP formations and units. They can instantly ruin the game before it even begins.

As for the knight? As long as it isn't RUINING the game, I don't really care. I've fought knights before and they can be hell if you didn't prepare enough heavy weapons/haywire for all those hull points.

I know this rant was kinda off topic, but it's something that's always bothered me.

So an op formation is the only thing that can melt a unit in one turn? How about a BA squad with 4 templates dropping on your shiny new infantry squad? Or your vehicle being one shot by a las cannon dev squad, drop podded sternguards, or single vindicare round? They are all OP because they can destroy something in one round of firing? How about when half the army shot at the new shiny unit killing it? If you don't want it dead, don't bring it.

Riptides are more durable vs anti-tank fire than a warhound TITAN. Think about that.


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 troa wrote:

 Whitebeard wrote:
Ok here is my biggest problem.

When you buy that one thing that you really want to use. Maybe it's just something silly like a Predator or a Dreadnought you painted up.

Then your opponent nukes it turn one.

You had been waiting to use that unit for weeks and the one game you get to play, it just dies.

This is why I hate OP formations and units. They can instantly ruin the game before it even begins.

As for the knight? As long as it isn't RUINING the game, I don't really care. I've fought knights before and they can be hell if you didn't prepare enough heavy weapons/haywire for all those hull points.

I know this rant was kinda off topic, but it's something that's always bothered me.

So an op formation is the only thing that can melt a unit in one turn? How about a BA squad with 4 templates dropping on your shiny new infantry squad? Or your vehicle being one shot by a las cannon dev squad, drop podded sternguards, or single vindicare round? They are all OP because they can destroy something in one round of firing? How about when half the army shot at the new shiny unit killing it? If you don't want it dead, don't bring it.

Everything i bring is expendable. Even my warlord, because BA have the noble sacrifice maelstrom card.

Martel has it spot on.
Armour in 7th may as well be glass.

If your running anything with an AV value then expect it to die.
A knight is no exception to this.

I'd expect even an average TAC list to be able to strip it's HP in a turn.


If your struggling to destroy AV then your list has issues and God help you if you face a gladius.

This is why I quit using razorbacks for the most part. I'm rocking whirlwinds (cheap and can hide), Rhinos (cheap and fast) and autolas preds (cheapest AV 13 I can get) in my armor lists. I'm forced to use a land raider, but at least it's fast which means it dictates engagement range usually.

 Talizvar wrote:
The part that bothers me a bit is I like rules.
I like them even more if the function in a reasonable way.

It feels strange to discuss if it is ok to use a unit that is specifically included in the game for use.
It would be like saying you can never field a Tie-Defender in X-wing.
Or a Queen in chess since that model is way OP in the game compared to the other pieces.

I know now at this time 40k is more of a scenario sandbox RPG for playing out stories you may have heard of in the fluff.
The days of straight-out-of-the-rules-competitive-play is long over.

I do have to ask the question though: if the game is to be casual and extra rules of etiquette are tacked-on, why should you care if someone fields an IK?
They only wanted to have fun or they would not have fielded it.
It is a proud achievement to get one together, more so if painted: are you going to be TFG and tell them you will not play them because you do not like their model?
How "casual" is this game again?

As a player and a person if you asked me if you could bring an Imperial Knight to a casual game I'd wonder why you were telling me what's in your list, shrug and tell you to "Go for it".
As a player reading rumours about 8th ed and thinking there's still a chance of getting an opinion heard, especially if others agree, I'm saying Super Heavies belong in Apoc games. That's where you show off your biggest, badest and most insane projects. That's where people admire the hundreds of dollars and hours you spent on that behemoth, in a regular 40k match the response is "Wow can I really afford to play this game?".

Exactly Martel, but you understand they won't live and it's simply a means to an end.

We aren't back in the old days of the living metal monolith terrorising the field.

AV13/12 and 6HP really is no threat.
Yes you can't immobilise or destroy it's weapons, but you don't need to.
You just kill it and it's done.

" I'm saying Super Heavies belong in Apoc games."

I'm saying Riptides and Dreadknights and Flyrants belong there too by that logic.

Martel732 wrote:
" I'm saying Super Heavies belong in Apoc games."

I'm saying Riptides and Dreadknights and Flyrants belong there too by that logic.

funny thing is if they removed SHVs and GCs from 40k... Magnus and Gulliman'd still be present. Magnus is a MONSTERIOUS creature, and chances are Gulliman'll be one, or even just classed as Infantry (which is, how FW classed them)

Martel732 wrote:
" I'm saying Super Heavies belong in Apoc games."

I'm saying Riptides and Dreadknights and Flyrants belong there too by that logic.

Rips and Dreadknights should be vehicles and subject to all their weaknesses.

I wonder why Blood Angels don't have access to any decent low cost fliers...is there a fluff reasoning to that?

Because BA are the ghetto have-not marines.

Martel732 wrote:
Because BA are the ghetto have-not marines.

Twilight.
Universal hatred for vampires that sparkle, even if the sparkle is armour reflecting muzzle flash from a Bolter.

When your oponnent agrees to it, like for every single other unit in the game.

 Jackal wrote:
Stripping or immobilising the weapons of 3 russ but can't take 6 HP of a knight?
I don't see it, sorry.

You never remove the weapons or immobilise a vehicle then leave it as it's points sat there.
If your army can't remove 6 HP off AV13 (if for some reason you shoot the front of it) with the chance of doing 3 HP in 1 go then your army has a big issue.


While people are saying the should be apocalypse only units, this isn't 6th any more.
There are far more devastating units that can be taken that aren't super heavy, GC or use D weapons.

Considering what grav cents can do to any vehicle.
Riptides that ignore most shooting.
Flyrants which can be a sheer pain.
Scatterbikes for massed shooting.

None of the above fit the apocalypse criteria, yet all of them are far more effective in a list than a knight is.

I also believe IK or WK aren't that hard to deal with, but you seem to be forgetting about the 4+ (or 3+) invulnerable save, which does make a huge difference.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:
Magnus is a MONSTERIOUS creature

What's that, monstrous and mysterious?
Or is it monstrous and serious? ... Magnus does look serious.

I'm not forgetting about it, it's not a true ++ save though as it only applies to 1 facing per shooting phase.

If it applied to all facings at all times then it would be worse.

 Jackal wrote:
Exactly Martel, but you understand they won't live and it's simply a means to an end.

We aren't back in the old days of the living metal monolith terrorising the field.

AV13/12 and 6HP really is no threat.
Yes you can't immobilise or destroy it's weapons, but you don't need to.
You just kill it and it's done.

But compare a Knight to say, an Ork Killbursta.

KillBursta with the D kannon is 400 points. It's got 7HP, 14/13/12.

On paper, the D (fnarr) makes it more appealing than a Knight - and toughness wise they're not far off each other (the Knight's shield can only cover one facing, so a bit of positioning can render it moot).

Except. That's ]all the dakka the Killbursta has. That one gun. Yes, it's a horrible 7" S-D blast. But unless targeting a densely packed area, still only squashing one unit a turn, tops. The Knight as I explained above can threaten 4 units (five if you count the co-axial Heavy Stubber. Generally, I don't!) each and every turn.

And the tricked out Knight's points are sufficiently higher than the Killbursta to offset - a Knight model can simply achieve more over the course of the game.

So at the core, you're right. The answer is 'just kill the Knight'. But that's no mean feat - especially in smaller games where points at a premium. If you load out for Knight hunting, you'll likely find yourself short on anti-infantry firepower. And if you drop the Knight in the first turn, a lot of heavy firepower going to waste over the next five or so turns.

That's what makes Knights an unpleasant surprise, and not something I'd ever demand my opponent 'man up and face'

I always like the site of a Knight on the battlefield (even though I don't field any).

I guess try it out with willing friends and see if its cheesy

True Dok about multi threats, and the killbursta is a new one to me (not faced one)
But a knight isn't threatening up to five targets atall.

Fully kitted your looking at a rapid fire BC, avenger or thermal and rocket pods.
It's other weapons only really threaten a few lone guardsmen at the most.
The FW ones do so even less due to no carapace weapon and usually 1 main weapon.

Without even going with a superheavy you can run 3 vindicators (or laser destroyer variants) with a pintle weapons.
To fully neutralise them you need to cause 6 weapon destroyed results, which means 6 pens.
That shooting alone will cause havoc against a knight.
The damage output is also higher from the 3 vindicators too.

I guess what I'm trying to say is for the cost, you can run basic units that can cause a lot more damage.
Imagine 500 points of scatter bikes for example?

It just feels like we are going back in time to when this stigma of superheavies and FW were around.
Granted I understand if it's a pickup game then you don't go all out.
But you also don't have to stop taking half the decent units available.

If for some reason I'm playing my nids I'll run a flyrant in a casual game.
This isn't because I want to run a stupidly strong unit, but because I want a unit capable of actually achieving things 90% of the book can't.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

On paper, the D (fnarr) makes it more appealing than a Knight - and toughness wise they're not far off each other (the Knight's shield can only cover one facing, so a bit of positioning can render it moot).

In order to damage a knight, you pretty much need to be firing on one of the AV12 sides, without shield, which means in the best of cases, you have 50% of your forces on each flank, one of which will lose 50% of its DPS.

So IF and WHEN you manage to outflank the Knight without risking Titanic Explosion in your face and without being in the feet of another Knight or within range of another serious threat, you will indeed hit it 75% of the time, which in the worst of cases for the IK player means it's got an effective 8 EHP (effective HP).

In most realistic cases, you're a lot closer to 9 EHP, which makes it quite tough.

I wouldn't count +33 to +50% EHP as "moot".

 Jackal wrote:

I guess what I'm trying to say is for the cost, you can run basic units that can cause a lot more damage.
Imagine 500 points of scatter bikes for example?

The thing is, problems with the points costs and designs of the Eldar codex don't really forgive Apoc units wandering around in 40k. A bolter can kill a scatbike. A TAC army can murder scatbikes. Sure, they're ridiculously undercosted for what they do but they're not such a rude thing that you have to redesign your entire army to specifically deal with them in low points games where points are premium else they will just run rampage over you without a word in edgeways.

It just feels like we are going back in time to when this stigma of superheavies and FW were around.
Granted I understand if it's a pickup game then you don't go all out.
But you also don't have to stop taking half the decent units available.

Superheavies and Gargantuans aren't 'half the decent units available'. A lot of the examples you are harking point to basic design flaws within respective codexes, rather than the fact that Superheavies and Gargantuans are a giant pile of rules that really, really don't fit into 1500 or less 40k. Even at 1850 they're pushing it.

If for some reason I'm playing my nids I'll run a flyrant in a casual game.
This isn't because I want to run a stupidly strong unit, but because I want a unit capable of actually achieving things 90% of the book can't.

I don't think a single person here has judged you about running Flyrants. They are the strongest unit Tyranids have. And to be perfectly fair the Tyranid army is in such a sad state that you need at least something that functions.

Thing is though...

Let's look at Superheavies and Gargantuans available across the board shall we?

Any Army of the Imperium can tack on an Imperial Knight detachment...in addition to anything it may have itself.
Eldar have Wraithknights - which are horrendously undercosted, are horrendously more resilient than any other GC in the game with the exception of the Nurgle Daemon Lord and come in an army that has an abundance of units that are undercosted. In fact, the 'bad' units in the Eldar codex...aren't really that bad at all. They're simply 'average'. Which in a Codex full of undercosted wonders makes them bad.
DE are basically hosed unless they consider an Eldar CAD tacked on. (oh no, so horrible).
Orks get...well...overpointed and expensive superheavies that don't compare to the IK in terms of what they can threaten.
Tyranids....hoo boy, I'm sorry. True, the Harridan is a wonder. A hideously expensive wonder. But your cheap superheavies...don't compare at all to the WK walking around waving it wraith-dong in your face. Like, they're 40 points shy of the Eldar player being able to take 2 for your 1 Hierodule.
Tau - welcome to more undercosted units in another undercosted Codex.

As I see it 40k has a lot of problems of its own before you start throwing in Apocalypse units. It's already a rules glut of unbalanced factions and an ally chart that went slightly out of control.

And really, Superheavies and Gargantuans have been shoved in. They're not that bad, no. But in a game where certain factions already tout huge advantages over others giving them even more advantages just takes the piss really. Especially when the factions that are weaker even have sub par Superheavies and Gargantuans as well.

 Jackal wrote:


It just feels like we are going back in time to when this stigma of superheavies and FW were around.

it's more like a small vocal minority never left that time. ever since IKs left there has always been a number of people who just think IKs don't belong. in fact the number of people saying that has shrunk since IKs first hit us

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

Eldar have Wraithknights - which are horrendously undercosted, are horrendously more resilient than any other GC in the game with the exception of the Nurgle Daemon Lord and come in an army that has an abundance of units that are undercosted. In fact, the 'bad' units in the Eldar codex...aren't really that bad at all. They're simply 'average'. Which in a Codex full of undercosted wonders makes them bad.

You can't expect to be taken seriously after whining so much about the Eldar and not dropping a single word about Space Marines, Necrons, Tau, Chaos...

Everyone who actually plays this game knows that some Eldar units are incredibly sucky at everything, and that most of them are just average.

Take the Ranger: there isn't a single sniper in the game which isn't vastly better for the point cost - and snipers generally suck in this game.
How is that not a bad unit?


The one thing which could be considered immensely wrong in this whole IK in the context of balance discussion, is that the SuperFriends, who always have one solid combo and oftentimes game-breaking ones (ITC banning Electro-Displacement case in point), also get access to the IK.
Which doesn't matter, since the IK is not really overpowered and is thus never included in a competitive army more or less.