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Made in us
Most Glorious Grey Seer





Everett, WA

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I completely disagree. I think it is entirely right that schools and companies should make reasonable accommodation of people's religious beliefs. It will be impossible for people of religion to integrate into wider society if society rejects their relatively trivial needs for prayer time, kosher/vegan meals, etc.

So setting aside a room for Muslim students to pray is okay but is it acceptable for a school to convert a room into a non-denominational chapel (but not hire a chaplain)? If not, how is a chapel different (legally) from a prayer room?


 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
 feeder wrote:
W hat about my personal example? Or how about the school football team getting special accommodation for away games?

Well, completely disagree with Kosher food because this directly funding religion, only a rabbi can make food kosher. Stuff like always having meals without pork is okay, and frankly, I think there should always be a vegetarian meal every day.

Kosher and halal food isn't a big dealio. They'll always try to accommodate and it isn't a budget buster that people thinks it could be. The biggest issue I have with state/federal funded lunches (and breakfast) is how BIG BUSINESS stick their noses in...
(Of course all of this is only if its a subsidized cafeteria…)

Carpentry courses? Well, education is directly part of the school's objective, it seems quite natural to organize some courses around other courses.

Dude... I would fething love the idea to advocate these types of blue collar skills in public education.

For the football team, it definitely depends on whether this is a very exceptional thing or a regular one…
If it's one big match, well, the student is going to miss class anyway, it's not like that doesn't happen. But if it's a regular “I don't go to this course because it's training time”, then hell no.

You simply have no idea how much High School football is regarded as a 'religion'...

Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




Building a blood in water scent

 Breotan wrote:
 Kilkrazy wrote:
I completely disagree. I think it is entirely right that schools and companies should make reasonable accommodation of people's religious beliefs. It will be impossible for people of religion to integrate into wider society if society rejects their relatively trivial needs for prayer time, kosher/vegan meals, etc.

So setting aside a room for Muslim students to pray is okay but is it acceptable for a school to convert a room into a non-denominational chapel (but not hire a chaplain)? If not, how is a chapel different (legally) from a prayer room?



In my kid's school, the Muslim kids that need to pray during class (not all of the Muslim kids do this), will do it in the gymnasium when it is not in use, or a quiet corner of the hallway. There is no special prayer room.

For some (not me), religion is a big part of their life. Accommodating a child's religion is an important part of raising well rounded adults. That's the kind of society I want to live in, one that is full of well rounded adults.

We were once so close to heaven, St. Peter came out and gave us medals; declaring us "The nicest of the damned".

“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'” 
   
Made in fr
Hallowed Canoness





 whembly wrote:
Kosher and halal food isn't a big dealio.

It is around here. We have a very strong concept of the separation of church and state.
 whembly wrote:
You simply have no idea how much High School football is regarded as a 'religion'...

Well, I'm talking from a French point of view. I know in the US there is a much, much stronger focus on sports' teams in education.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 feeder wrote:
Accommodating a child's religion is an important part of raising well rounded adults.

I'd say challenging the religious rules they are taught to live by and abide mindlessly is an important part of raising well-rounded adults…

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/28 21:16:17


"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Secret Squirrel






Leerstetten, Germany

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 feeder wrote:
Accommodating a child's religion is an important part of raising well rounded adults.

I'd say challenging the religious rules they are taught to live by and abide mindlessly is an important part of raising well-rounded adults…


Depends on how it's done.

I don't want schools forcing anti-religious thoughts on religious children anymore than I want schools forcing any religion on any children. Telling religious kids that they are wrong/mindless/whatever is not the place of the school and does nothing to further education. You don't want a school that tells children they are going to suffer in hell because they are heathens, others don't want a school that tells children that something that gives them comfort and safety is a fairy tale. The important thing is that we create an environment where children feel safe.

So schools should create an environment that is inclusive of all religions. At the same time schools can create an environment where students are free to explore their own views on religion and challenge them where comfortable and then decide if they should adjust their worldviews. And that is pretty easy to do.

A "chapel/prayer room/reflection room/quiet room" for all religions is one of the ways that can be done. I know plenty of places that have one room for all religions. It may have a small altar that is free of any marking connecting it to any religion, it usually has a marking on the floor denoting the direction for prayers, chairs or benches for sitting or kneeling, and usually a small bookshelf with the spiritual books for various religions on them. I think that's a good start because while giving followers of one religion a space for practicing their own belief, it also exposes them to other religions at the same time. People who don't have a religion but want to go in the room to reflect and meditate can also utilize it as well.

Another way schools can challenge the views of children is by simply having a well stocked library where children can explore views that are different than their own. I think a school should have religious texts in the library representing all religions, so that children can decide to check them out and explore them.

And of course the actual curriculum is another area. Sciences should never be compromised by any religion and should focus simply on science, that is a given. But social sciences can be a good opportunity for talking about all religions and how they impacted the world around them. The various wars in Europe often had religious undertones, the crusades, how you can follow migration patters via the spread of certain religions, how societies and laws were shaped by the religions at the time, how it impacts culture, etc. I also think that schools should cover the actual religions during social sciences as well, at least a basic breakdown of the major beliefs of different religions, how they got started, their texts, etc. Just basic secular examination of religions, not religious indoctrination.

Create an environment where children are exposed to the world around them, the people that live in it, the various beliefs that are out there. Create an environment where children feel safe exploring that space, stepping outside what they have always known, and learning things that they might not have been exposed to at home. Then respect whatever choice they make after that.

You can do that without being a dick.
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






 feeder wrote:
 Breotan wrote:
 Kilkrazy wrote:
I completely disagree. I think it is entirely right that schools and companies should make reasonable accommodation of people's religious beliefs. It will be impossible for people of religion to integrate into wider society if society rejects their relatively trivial needs for prayer time, kosher/vegan meals, etc.

So setting aside a room for Muslim students to pray is okay but is it acceptable for a school to convert a room into a non-denominational chapel (but not hire a chaplain)? If not, how is a chapel different (legally) from a prayer room?



In my kid's school, the Muslim kids that need to pray during class (not all of the Muslim kids do this), will do it in the gymnasium when it is not in use, or a quiet corner of the hallway. There is no special prayer room.

For some (not me), religion is a big part of their life. Accommodating a child's religion is an important part of raising well rounded adults. That's the kind of society I want to live in, one that is full of well rounded adults.


And if you're demanding another Religion respects yours, leading the way is rarely a good thing (even if you buy into the BS that every Muslim is a jihadi extremist sleeper cell - despite known Jihadi Extremists making up something like 0.04, possibly 0.04% of Muslims)

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Denison, Iowa

I remember there was a public school in the news a couple years back that caught some flak for remodeling a section of the school to be an authentic Muslim prayer area complete with stylized feet washing area. They justified it byclaiming that non-muslims could wash their feet there as well, but in practice non-muslims have been actively shunned from the area by both students asnd staff.

Also, in some of the Muslim majority school districts reverse discrimination has popped up. Despite public schools being required to provide lunch there was a move to have no lunch provided during the Muslim time of fasting.
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Secret Squirrel






Leerstetten, Germany

Can you find a link to the foot washing school?
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Denison, Iowa

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
[And if you're demanding another Religion respects yours, leading the way is rarely a good thing (even if you buy into the BS that every Muslim is a jihadi extremist sleeper cell - despite known Jihadi Extremists making up something like 0.04, possibly 0.04% of Muslims)


Is that all Muslims, or just those in the US? I beleive in a previous iteration of the US Politics thread someone polsted a link to a government study that estimated the number of radicalized Muslims in the world to be great than the population of the US.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 d-usa wrote:
Can you find a link to the foot washing school?


I'll see if I can find it. It was a couple years ago.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/01 15:19:50


 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

 d-usa wrote:
Can you find a link to the foot washing school?


Wait there's a school for footwashing now? Back in my day we just ran through a stream when we were running form the hyenedons to throw 'em off our scent.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




Building a blood in water scent

 d-usa wrote:
 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 feeder wrote:
Accommodating a child's religion is an important part of raising well rounded adults.

I'd say challenging the religious rules they are taught to live by and abide mindlessly is an important part of raising well-rounded adults…


Depends on how it's done.

I don't want schools forcing anti-religious thoughts on religious children anymore than I want schools forcing any religion on any children. Telling religious kids that they are wrong/mindless/whatever is not the place of the school and does nothing to further education. You don't want a school that tells children they are going to suffer in hell because they are heathens, others don't want a school that tells children that something that gives them comfort and safety is a fairy tale. The important thing is that we create an environment where children feel safe....

...You can do that without being a dick.


Exactly this. You can do that without being a dick.

We were once so close to heaven, St. Peter came out and gave us medals; declaring us "The nicest of the damned".

“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'” 
   
Made in fr
Hallowed Canoness





 d-usa wrote:
At the same time schools can create an environment where students are free to explore their own views on religion and challenge them where comfortable and then decide if they should adjust their worldviews. And that is pretty easy to do.

Well, no, it's not pretty easy to do. Not if said children come from a very strictly religious community which practice even a bit of self-policing.

Validating every delusional arbitrary religious rule as something that is owed absolute respect is not sending a good message…

"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1 
   
Made in gb
Master Engineer with a Brace of Pistols






 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Validating every delusional arbitrary religious rule as something that is owed absolute respect is not sending a good message…


I like the way you think.
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

 Future War Cultist wrote:
 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Validating every delusional arbitrary religious rule as something that is owed absolute respect is not sending a good message…


I like the way you think.


Only if you are an antireligionist bigot.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/03/01 20:30:25


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Secret Squirrel






Leerstetten, Germany

They have the same opportunity to explore other beliefs in the library and interact with children who believe different things as children from any other family and background.

That's how you challenge beliefs while also respecting them.
   
Made in us
Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot




On moon miranda.

 Frazzled wrote:
 Future War Cultist wrote:
 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Validating every delusional arbitrary religious rule as something that is owed absolute respect is not sending a good message…


I like the way you think.


Only if you are an antireligionist bigot.
but what about the antidisestablishmentariasts advocating for antidisestablishmentarianism?


IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

 Vaktathi wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
 Future War Cultist wrote:
 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Validating every delusional arbitrary religious rule as something that is owed absolute respect is not sending a good message…


I like the way you think.


Only if you are an antireligionist bigot.
but what about the antidisestablishmentariasts advocating for antidisestablishmentarianism?



YOU JUST SPRAINED MY BRAIN.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in gb
Master Engineer with a Brace of Pistols






@ Frazzled

So what, every religious rule must be respected beyound questioning? Bollocks to that.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/01 20:40:06


 
   
Made in fr
Hallowed Canoness





 Frazzled wrote:
Only if you are an antireligionist bigot.

Am I a bigot or an SJW? Or both? Mystery!
 d-usa wrote:
They have the same opportunity to explore other beliefs in the library and interact with children who believe different things as children from any other family and background.

Other people don't come home to a family that will punish them for doing so, do they?

"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Secret Squirrel






Leerstetten, Germany

Unless you want schools to forcefully remove children out of religious communities and families, that has nothing to do with how schools can encourage children to challenge their views.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




North Carolina

Spetulhu wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
Blasphemy is a crime without a victim (unless you consider God to be the victim, but I am pretty sure He doesn't need us to defend Him).


Aye, good point there. I'd even call blasphemy laws blasphemous - lowly mortal law implying that a divine being is somehow too weak to retaliate if necessary? That's frankly insulting, or so I'd see it if I was a divine being...

But we have had those laws on the books even up here in the Nordic countries. The Finnish one based on Swedish law of 1734 originally stipulated the death penalty, but after 1823 such wasn't carried out even if it was on the books until 1899. These days it's not a blasphemy law anymore but "disturbing religious peace" can still get you fines or up to six months in jail. One of the things you can get in trouble for is still public blasphemy, the rest things like disturbing a religious event or burial service. Of note is that the blasphemy clause usually hasn't been used alone but as part of other lawsuits - libel, slander, hate crime, copyright violation(?)...


How can secular governments have blasphemy laws? Why should secular governments enforce strictly religious edicts? There was no endangerment or harm done to the public or any individual so why the man need to be prosecuted just for burning a book? He's also not a Muslim so how can he commit a religious offense to a religion he isn't a part of? If he broke other Islamic tenets like eating pork or drawing cartoons of Mohammed would he also be prosecuted for blasphemy? If a Danish man made a youtube video of himself killing, cooking and eating a cow would he be charged with blasphemy against the Hindu religion? What is the compelling state interest in charging the man for burning any book?

Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

 Breotan wrote:
 Kilkrazy wrote:
I completely disagree. I think it is entirely right that schools and companies should make reasonable accommodation of people's religious beliefs. It will be impossible for people of religion to integrate into wider society if society rejects their relatively trivial needs for prayer time, kosher/vegan meals, etc.

So setting aside a room for Muslim students to pray is okay but is it acceptable for a school to convert a room into a non-denominational chapel (but not hire a chaplain)? If not, how is a chapel different (legally) from a prayer room?



Setting aside a prayer room for anyone is OK. Muslims don't need a mihrab because there is an app for that.

A chapel is legally different to a prayer room by virtue of having been consecrated to a specific religion and sect. Clearly this would violate the separation clause.

A non-denominational chapel that hasn't been consecrated is just a prayer room with a religiously specific name. Simply name it a prayer room rather than a chapel.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in fr
Hallowed Canoness





 d-usa wrote:
Unless you want schools to forcefully remove children out of religious communities and families, that has nothing to do with how schools can encourage children to challenge their views.

Well, you were the one saying it was easy, not me. It's definitely not.

"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

 Future War Cultist wrote:
@ Frazzled

So what, every religious rule must be respected beyound questioning? Bollocks to that.


Strawman alert!
No one on this thread is arguing that.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in gb
Assassin with Black Lotus Poison





Bristol

 Kilkrazy wrote:
 Breotan wrote:
 Kilkrazy wrote:
I completely disagree. I think it is entirely right that schools and companies should make reasonable accommodation of people's religious beliefs. It will be impossible for people of religion to integrate into wider society if society rejects their relatively trivial needs for prayer time, kosher/vegan meals, etc.

So setting aside a room for Muslim students to pray is okay but is it acceptable for a school to convert a room into a non-denominational chapel (but not hire a chaplain)? If not, how is a chapel different (legally) from a prayer room?



Setting aside a prayer room for anyone is OK. Muslims don't need a mihrab because there is an app for that.

A chapel is legally different to a prayer room by virtue of having been consecrated to a specific religion and sect. Clearly this would violate the separation clause.

A non-denominational chapel that hasn't been consecrated is just a prayer room with a religiously specific name. Simply name it a prayer room rather than a chapel.


Hell I'd just call it a quiet room or room of reflection to remove all overt religious tones from it. So it is equally usable for someone to go in and pray, or go in and read a book or just go in and sit quietly without any notion of "using the room wrong" coming into it.

The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.

Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Secret Squirrel






Leerstetten, Germany

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
 d-usa wrote:
Unless you want schools to forcefully remove children out of religious communities and families, that has nothing to do with how schools can encourage children to challenge their views.

Well, you were the one saying it was easy, not me. It's definitely not.


No, it is very easy to provide opportunities for students to challenge their own views.

You seem to want to force students to challenge their views, which is a different issue.
   
Made in fr
Hallowed Canoness





 d-usa wrote:
No, it is very easy to provide opportunities for students to challenge their own views.

It's like you are completely ignoring the whole problem I highlighted in previous messages. If your opportunities comes bundled with instant social punishment, sure…

"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1 
   
 
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