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 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
7- The guy that rags on you when you concede the game, because it is mathematically/logistically impossible for you to win. Sorry, dude- other people want to use the tables and I'm not going to spend another hour letting you blast my dudes to death when you have a 5-point lead.

In fairness, sometimes the story isn't about whether you lose, but how.

nareik wrote:
In fairness, sometimes the story isn't about whether you lose, but how.

Yeah, but sometimes the 'story' isn't as important to the other people who are waiting on a table.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Oh, I got one.

So, a few friends of mine noticed a trend at our FLGS- people tend to get a bit... loud. Obnoxious. There's children climbing all over everyone.

So we decided that one day we would have a casual game day at a store down the road. A basic 'tournament', with the 'prize' being that the winner didn't have to put down for pizza and beer that night afterward. We wanted it to be fun, friendly, and relaxed- more focused on bringing our best players in to teach our newer players what they can do better, and how they can maximize the potential for things in their army- with a little part-swapping here and there to help some guys out.

Now, we have some... competitive guys that frequent our main gaming store.

A little background on our 'competitive' guys: These are the dudes that criticize everyone's paint job, when they're paying one professional to do all of theirs (they buy his models, he paints theirs). These are the guys that joined an escalation league aimed at new players and people starting new armies with the same Death Star armies they've had since they started coming to the store, and pretty much blasted through the entire league with tailored lists (they knew who had what and changed their stuff out between games on different days of the weekend). They got so out of hand with their powergaming, that the store explicitly made a rule stating that they can't play a game at the store without asking an employee for permission.

So these dudes found out about our little friendly game, and immediately started asking if they could get in on it. We told them it was private, and it was for us, and we had a full bracket already.

The day we went to play, these guys had taken every table up with their little buddies playing Kill-Team, Infinity, Blood Bowl, etc- and sat on those tables all day to keep us off. One of them finally said he could clear off some tables if we let him and some of his friends join.

We took our models to one guy's house and just rotated out using his personal gaming table, and everyone drank and chilled out.

Now THIS is how you beat the TFG's. Although you should alert the store staff as to what happened, as even passive bullying like that is still bullying.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Yeah, but sometimes the 'story' isn't as important to the other people who are waiting on a table.

But let's be honest here, a lot of people give up and think about quitting the game as soon as anything goes even slightly badly for them. If they aren't winning decisively it's time to give up, they have no interest in trying to fight back from a disadvantage even when the game is far from over. And that's incredibly frustrating to deal with if you want to have complete games.

Anyway, my two hated TFG types:

1) The complete who doesn't understand how to behave in public. Anger issues over losing a game, the guy that thought it was ok to yell rape jokes in the middle of a game, etc. You know, the kind of people you wouldn't want to deal with in any other context. Thankfully these seem to be pretty rare in my experience.

2) The "casual at all costs" players who whine and cry if you dare to attempt to win a game instead of bringing a "fun" list (as they define "fun", which usually involves some convoluted code of honor in which their personal lists are always considered acceptable). Sorry, CAAC players, a game is a competitive activity with a winner and a loser, and trying to figure out the perfect list to win games is fun. And get off your ridiculous moral high ground about how you're the only people who know how to have fun, and everyone who doesn't play the game the way you do is some kind of WAAC TFG who is ruining everything. And this is especially true if we're talking about a tournament, an activity where the purpose is to find the best player through competition.

And you if you whine and cry because I don't allow you to bend the rules in your favor. It is not "WAAC TFG behavior" to point out that your unit is indisputably 1mm out of range after measuring it carefully, and you aren't entitled to round off that last 1mm in your favor just because you'd really like to get to shoot with that unit. It is not "WAAC TFG behavior" to play the rules as written instead of your "fluffy" interpretation, which conveniently happens to favor your army. And the fact that I tend to be right in rule disputes instead of letting you win half of them just to be "fair" does not mean that I'm the bad guy. And you sure as hell aren't "casual" if you're doing this stuff.

 Peregrine wrote:

But let's be honest here, a lot of people give up and think about quitting the game as soon as anything goes even slightly badly for them. If they aren't winning decisively it's time to give up, they have no interest in trying to fight back from a disadvantage even when the game is far from over. And that's incredibly frustrating to deal with if you want to have complete games.

Well, there's a difference in the guy that had a bad couple of turns... and someone who is behind 3 points, with 2 scoring units left on the table against 5 scoring units with OBSEC, when the guy's got your warlord down to 1 wound, a unit 12 inches from your table edge, and 2 objective cards he's about to cash in for 2D3 victory points. If it is mathematically, logistically, and physically impossible to do anything to win or even tie at that point... I'm not going to waste more time sitting on a table that someone else could be using, just so someone can go around the shop gloating about how he blew all of my units off the board in turn 3.

Anyway, my two hated TFG types:

 Peregrine wrote:
1) The complete who doesn't understand how to behave in public. Anger issues over losing a game, the guy that thought it was ok to yell rape jokes in the middle of a game, etc. You know, the kind of people you wouldn't want to deal with in any other context. Thankfully these seem to be pretty rare in my experience.

I've said it once, and I'll say it again and again- the gaming community has no shortage of pigs, crybullies, stinkies, whiners, ragemonkeys, lousy parents, thieves, and any other number of terrible scumbags of a wide variety. The only reason they thrive in gaming communities is because they think we have no balls- and for the longest time, it seems like they may have been right. If you push these people out of the community, and exercise the beautiful art of 'gatekeeping' that everyone claims is so terrible, and be a jerk to them and stand your ground- then you'll find a community cleans up real fast.

 Peregrine wrote:
2) The "casual at all costs" players who whine and cry if you dare to attempt to win a game instead of bringing a "fun" list (as they define "fun", which usually involves some convoluted code of honor in which their personal lists are always considered acceptable). Sorry, CAAC players, a game is a competitive activity with a winner and a loser, and trying to figure out the perfect list to win games is fun. And get off your ridiculous moral high ground about how you're the only people who know how to have fun, and everyone who doesn't play the game the way you do is some kind of WAAC TFG who is ruining everything. And this is especially true if we're talking about a tournament, an activity where the purpose is to find the best player through competition.

And you if you whine and cry because I don't allow you to bend the rules in your favor. It is not "WAAC TFG behavior" to point out that your unit is indisputably 1mm out of range after measuring it carefully, and you aren't entitled to round off that last 1mm in your favor just because you'd really like to get to shoot with that unit. It is not "WAAC TFG behavior" to play the rules as written instead of your "fluffy" interpretation, which conveniently happens to favor your army. And the fact that I tend to be right in rule disputes instead of letting you win half of them just to be "fair" does not mean that I'm the bad guy. And you sure as hell aren't "casual" if you're doing this stuff.

That doesn't sound so much like a guy who's obsessed with 'casual' gaming. It sounds like a guy that tries to dress up a game as 'casual' but sneak in a win. I've seen quite a few players that try to claim they're putting down just a 'fun list' for a 'friendly game' that turns out to be something really, really nasty. That's why most of the time I'll bring out my dirtiest tricks possible when they do this, just to see how 'friendly' they are going to be. If they start getting a bit aggressive, I'll turn my dial up and start playing with my dirty tricks, too.

And yes, I will throw a wall of armored vehicles and cultists in the middle of an urban map in a 'relic' game and create a wall of tanks while I move my dude to the most advantageous piece of cover on the map.

Some of the most fun I have had playing 40k is just playing to 3 turns and then reset. You can get in way more games and if you and your opponent know what they are doing, you can generally tell where the game is going to go after 3 turns.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
I've said it once, and I'll say it again and again- the gaming community has no shortage of pigs, crybullies, stinkies, whiners, ragemonkeys, lousy parents, thieves, and any other number of terrible scumbags of a wide variety. The only reason they thrive in gaming communities is because they think we have no balls- and for the longest time, it seems like they may have been right. If you push these people out of the community, and exercise the beautiful art of 'gatekeeping' that everyone claims is so terrible, and be a jerk to them and stand your ground- then you'll find a community cleans up real fast.

I just said it, but I'll say it again: in my experience people like this are much rarer than the horror stories like to suggest. Most people I've encountered have been normal reasonable adults like you'd find in any other community, and most of the people who couldn't behave got reputations for being trouble and were only grudgingly tolerated. I don't think the gaming community is really any worse about tolerating unpleasant people when compared to other hobbies, and talking about how we need to shun more people often seems like the kind of cliquish attitude that quickly makes a community an awful place to be.

That doesn't sound so much like a guy who's obsessed with 'casual' gaming. It sounds like a guy that tries to dress up a game as 'casual' but sneak in a win. I've seen quite a few players that try to claim they're putting down just a 'fun list' for a 'friendly game' that turns out to be something really, really nasty. That's why most of the time I'll bring out my dirtiest tricks possible when they do this, just to see how 'friendly' they are going to be. If they start getting a bit aggressive, I'll turn my dial up and start playing with my dirty tricks, too.

And yes, I will throw a wall of armored vehicles and cultists in the middle of an urban map in a 'relic' game and create a wall of tanks while I move my dude to the most advantageous piece of cover on the map.

No, it's absolutely people who consider themselves "casual". It's not just a calculated attempt to win, they seem to have this idea that in a "casual" game you don't need to worry about being too precise about range/arc/etc, if it's close you just let them have the shot. And if you spend the extra time to carefully measure it to find that they're 1mm out then of course you're a WAAC player who doesn't care enough about having fun. Same thing with the list strength whines. It's not that their lists are amazing (most of them suck and would lose every time against a competitive list), it's that they set up convoluted codes of honor where if you don't play the kind of list that they play you're a WAAC TFG. And they'll complain on forums, demand to have people shunned from the community, etc, if someone brings a list that is "too good" to a game where they're expecting everyone to play by their code of honor.

I completely agree with Peregrine here, and look no further than Dakka for loads of examples of this type of attitude and behavior.

I haven't had much in the way of really bad experiences, but there's certainly a spectrum of people who only enjoy a game when they're winning. Even if they don't descend to tantrum-throwing level it gets old having to deal with players who get gloomy and disinterested if the game isn't going their way. I've cheated in probably a dozen or so games of Warhammer, every time has been to fudge my rolls DOWN so I could put myself at a disadvantage and not have to deal with it.

4- The guy that doesn't play 40k any more, shows up to talk about how much he hates 40k now, and generally spends no money or does nothing but gripe.

Damn, that's probably half of the posters here on Dakka!

 Peregrine wrote:
I I don't think the gaming community is really any worse about tolerating unpleasant people when compared to other hobbies, and talking about how we need to shun more people often seems like the kind of cliquish attitude that quickly makes a community an awful place to be.

I think you're misreading me. But the sort of people I made clear that should be shunned, I'm not sure why you wouldn't support shunning them. Or, you know- we can have more 'totally true' blog posts that talk about how we've got some kind of white male terrorism problem, and then people can go on and on about 'not in MY community!' a day after they were sharing stories about the same scumbaggery. Gaming isn't overran with scumbags. But we have just enough scumbags. And let me be clear- people who bang up those fake blog posts are, in my opinion, the same sort of scumbag. I acknowledge that both sorts exist. But no sooner does something like this get mentioned by some girl, that every gamer in the world manifests a story about the roving rape-gangs at his FLGS.

And if gatekeeping scumbags is wrong, then I will gladly give 'being right' the middle finger. I do not want cheaters, liars, bullies, shrieking harpies, thieves, stinkies, or abusive people in my gaming community. I don't care whose feelings it hurts, either. That makes a community 'an awful place to be' for a specific type of person, and that's the idea behind it. It should be awful for these sorts, they should feel unwelcome, and they should feel like they have no place in gaming communities until they stop being scumbags.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I haven't had much in the way of really bad experiences, but there's certainly a spectrum of people who only enjoy a game when they're winning. Even if they don't descend to tantrum-throwing level it gets old having to deal with players who get gloomy and disinterested if the game isn't going their way. I've cheated in probably a dozen or so games of Warhammer, every time has been to fudge my rolls DOWN so I could put myself at a disadvantage and not have to deal with it.

We have the non-tantrum guy, too. Every time he loses, he gets upset and buys a new allied detachment. He's great for the store.

We had a guy the other week who brought his classic Hero Quest but refused to be GM, forcing another player who hasn't played in years to run the game. The group decided to roll off to decide who gets first pick of character cards, and this guy threw a tantrum about how unfair it was that he didn't get to play the Elf class, even long AFTER the guy who picked Elf offered to swap.

Next time if he complains he doesn't get to play his favourite class, I'm just going to force him to photocopy it so everyone's happy (there's a photocopier in the community centre room we hire).


This same guy also spent the night being passive aggressive with me saying I was "spitting my dummy out" when I declined the chance to play Hero Quest because I'd already made plans with someone else to play a miniature wargame (I spent the night helping him write his list). I'd previously expressed genuine interest in playing Hero Quest, but this guy keeps turning up unannounced typically on days when we've made other plans. On weeks when he says he intends to bring Hero Quest, he brings a different game instead.

And he also often arrives late halfway through the session, after we've started playing games that hes not interested in, takes one look and walks out.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
We had a guy the other week who brought his classic Hero Quest but refused to be GM, forcing another player who hasn't played in years to run the game...

I'm just shocked someone has an intact copy of 'Hero Quest'. I've been considering using modern minis to recreate the game.

Also, "spitting your dummy out" - LOL. My ex said this to her son, it was hilarious.

Yeah, I import.

I forgot about the funniest player I've ever seen in a smallish 40k community. This guy was not very good at the game however you shaked it but he was also competitive so losing was fustrating. His strategy to win? He would buy all the good units at the store to the armies that any of his opponents played. This way nobody got the good stuff to expand their amries with. He ended having an apartment with unopened box towers everywhere. Every week you would go into the store because you knew the day they got stock in and everytime you would find out that the guy showed up early and bought it all.

He ended being a major contributor for the closing of the store from what I remember.

So he actually helped to kill the business and just hoarded these unopened boxes? Damn, that's just...demented.

 BrotherGecko wrote:
I forgot about the funniest player I've ever seen in a smallish 40k community. This guy was not very good at the game however you shaked it but he was also competitive so losing was fustrating. His strategy to win? He would buy all the good units at the store to the armies that any of his opponents played. This way nobody got the good stuff to expand their amries with. He ended having an apartment with unopened box towers everywhere. Every week you would go into the store because you knew the day they got stock in and everytime you would find out that the guy showed up early and bought it all.

He ended being a major contributor for the closing of the store from what I remember.

.....the store went under because he bought all the product? Something sounds off about this story....

Dunno. If he drives away enough people, he reduces the need to buy his way to victory.

Though one would think a store owner worth their salt would ban the trouble maker. It's never nice to do, but sometimes it's necessary.

There's one guy I know, who really isn't too bad, but basically decided to quit 40k after a game with me and then losing at a highly competitive tournament. He was already considering it beforehand, but when his DA stasis bomber thing's special rules turned out to be useless against 1W guardsmen, he sounded like he was going to list it on Ebay immediately after the game, instead of using it as the regular Storm Talon or whatever it's based from. He also tried to bring a comparatively tame Tau list to our FLGS Adepticon Primer, got wrecked, and was also very disgruntled with a daemon player's (admittedly low quality, but recognizable) VSG scratch build. That tourney seemed to be the final nail in the coffin. He has since moved on to X-wing.

I had my own "That Guy" moment while spectating a Blood Bowl game. I accidentally passed gas, but was too embarrassed to make a warning or apology. A minute later, everyone save one person had their shirts over their noses. Cue that last guy (bless him) breaking into a comic relief story about losing his sense of smell, after his middle school thought it'd be a wonderful idea to take a field trip to a sewage treatment plant.

 BrotherGecko wrote:
I forgot about the funniest player I've ever seen in a smallish 40k community. This guy was not very good at the game however you shaked it but he was also competitive so losing was fustrating. His strategy to win? He would buy all the good units at the store to the armies that any of his opponents played. This way nobody got the good stuff to expand their amries with. He ended having an apartment with unopened box towers everywhere. Every week you would go into the store because you knew the day they got stock in and everytime you would find out that the guy showed up early and bought it all.

He ended being a major contributor for the closing of the store from what I remember.

...What was that guy's source of money, and how do I replicate it?

 Peregrine wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Yeah, but sometimes the 'story' isn't as important to the other people who are waiting on a table.

But let's be honest here, a lot of people give up and think about quitting the game as soon as anything goes even slightly badly for them. If they aren't winning decisively it's time to give up, they have no interest in trying to fight back from a disadvantage even when the game is far from over. And that's incredibly frustrating to deal with if you want to have complete games.

Anyway, my two hated TFG types:

1) The complete who doesn't understand how to behave in public. Anger issues over losing a game, the guy that thought it was ok to yell rape jokes in the middle of a game, etc. You know, the kind of people you wouldn't want to deal with in any other context. Thankfully these seem to be pretty rare in my experience.

2) The "casual at all costs" players who whine and cry if you dare to attempt to win a game instead of bringing a "fun" list (as they define "fun", which usually involves some convoluted code of honor in which their personal lists are always considered acceptable). Sorry, CAAC players, a game is a competitive activity with a winner and a loser, and trying to figure out the perfect list to win games is fun. And get off your ridiculous moral high ground about how you're the only people who know how to have fun, and everyone who doesn't play the game the way you do is some kind of WAAC TFG who is ruining everything. And this is especially true if we're talking about a tournament, an activity where the purpose is to find the best player through competition.

And you if you whine and cry because I don't allow you to bend the rules in your favor. It is not "WAAC TFG behavior" to point out that your unit is indisputably 1mm out of range after measuring it carefully, and you aren't entitled to round off that last 1mm in your favor just because you'd really like to get to shoot with that unit. It is not "WAAC TFG behavior" to play the rules as written instead of your "fluffy" interpretation, which conveniently happens to favor your army. And the fact that I tend to be right in rule disputes instead of letting you win half of them just to be "fair" does not mean that I'm the bad guy. And you sure as hell aren't "casual" if you're doing this stuff.

You guys seriously measure down to 1mm? One cm, I guess can see. But 1mm is not far off from the thickness of the metal end of the tape measure.

Quibbling over 1mm sounds pretty TFG to me.

I'm pretty sure he was exagerating to make a point. I have seen people loss their gak because one person measure like 0,5cm more than they should, and have seen people that, to how they measure distances, they could play without a measure tape, because it isn't gonna make a big difference
Both ends of the spectre are equally upsetting to me.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Dunno. If he drives away enough people, he reduces the need to buy his way to victory.
.

If you can point to a real store that goes out of business because somebody kept buying all their stock (at a profit to the owner), you'll be showing me a storeowner so inept that the guy buying stuff had nothing to do with its failure.

I would assume that its because he stopped buying from the store after driving the other players away. No point in continuing to buy out the store to undermine your opponents if you no longer have any opponents. And if the store was relying on the warhammer community as their main revenue stream then its no surprise that they began to struggle after losing it.

 Ketara wrote:

 BrotherGecko wrote:
I forgot about the funniest player I've ever seen in a smallish 40k community. This guy was not very good at the game however you shaked it but he was also competitive so losing was fustrating. His strategy to win? He would buy all the good units at the store to the armies that any of his opponents played. This way nobody got the good stuff to expand their amries with. He ended having an apartment with unopened box towers everywhere. Every week you would go into the store because you knew the day they got stock in and everytime you would find out that the guy showed up early and bought it all.

He ended being a major contributor for the closing of the store from what I remember.

.....the store went under because he bought all the product? Something sounds off about this story....

Forgot that bit that explains how that worked. He would buy all the 40k product on in store credit. He sold magic cards to the store for credit and then bought up all the 40k products people wanted. The store must of been really generous with their trade in because he was always sitting on a ton of credit. Oh! I forgot they also allowed IOUs with him too, he had apparently rich rich parents and so would eventually pay his tab but still basically the store bought magic cards (which never really sold) off of him and then he bought the 40k product, meaning the store never generated any real income.

 privateer4hire wrote:
You guys seriously measure down to 1mm? One cm, I guess can see. But 1mm is not far off from the thickness of the metal end of the tape measure.

Not every game is 40k. This happened in X-Wing, where there are fixed templates for measuring range and a perfectly flat surface to set the template down on. If I can put the range ruler between two ships and it doesn't touch both of them, even by a very tiny margin, you aren't in range. But people would get offended that I'd measure it that carefully instead of just waving the ruler in the general area of the ships and saying "looks close enough, take the shot".

X-Wing, totally fair enough, the range is the range - and provided people are using the stick that come with the game (or have agreed to use Perspex replacements prior to the game) you're right. Either in, or out. And given precision of movement and positioning is what carries the day, that's damned important.

For other game where measurements are a bit more woolly in nature, I can forgive the odd mm here and there. Though it needs to be reciprocal. Nothing worse than an opponent asking for the benefit of the doubt, then being a phallus about your own.

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
I completely agree with Peregrine here, and look no further than Dakka for loads of examples of this type of attitude and behavior.

Yeah. One of the biggest contributors to why I don't play 40k any more. (That and I didn't care for 5th edition rules).

Whatever floats your boat, but I personally find that kind of precise measurement to be tedious and frustrating.

I once played a MTG match with someone who insisted I call out the start and end of every phase as well as every step. He's technically not wrong for requesting me to do so, but it made the game incredibly unfun when he would admonish me for not saying "I started my turn, Entering Draw Phase, Drawing a Card" when I drew a card on reflex after he ended his turn.

In fact double standards are another TFG trait. If they feel something gives them a momentary advantage, they'll demand it. The second said advantage might apply to you, suddenly it's 'by-the-book' or GTFO in general.

Cocked dice, obscure FAQ ruling taken on faith, woolly measurements, wording of a rule, anything.

Classic was prior to 2D6 charges is of course delcaring a unit in or out of Rapid Fire range, then flipping it for the charge, provided it suited them.