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You can't get a pile of lascannons big enough to solve 3 Riptides. They can walk across the board and step on your tanks with impunity.
OSC is a gamblers build. If they end up against Demons or Tyranids, they accomplished nothing. Against someone like myself who primarily uses pods and rhinos, it does very little.
If you pay for AV in 7th ed, you are taking a huge risk anyway. Expect to lose your tanks.
" Beast Hunter Command Tanks solve that problem nicely"
Aren't those AP 3 weapons? Try again.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/05/09 19:16:31
I don't have a problem with the rest of the Tau army. Just the Optimized Stealth Cadre and the Tideline Rig.
The former because it invalidates the entire Imperial Guard army list, whether you're Armoured Battlegroup, Mechvets, Gunline Guard, or Blob Guard.
The latter because they're like a Hammerhead, but twin-linked and indestructible.
Call it a hunch, but I have a feeling that the Tidewall stuff is going to be unusable by things like suits anymore.
That's nice, but it's still an indestructible twin-linked railcannon that can move 6" a turn. New crewmen will take the place of the one I killed, or they'll hide the one that the controller is on behind a building and send the other two out to fight.
Martel732 wrote: You can't get a pile of lascannons big enough to solve 3 Riptides. They can walk across the board and step on your tanks with impunity.
OSC is a gamblers build. If they end up against Demons or Tyranids, they accomplished nothing. Against someone like myself who primarily uses pods and rhinos, it does very little.
If you pay for AV in 7th ed, you are taking a huge risk anyway. Expect to lose your tanks.
" Beast Hunter Command Tanks solve that problem nicely"
Aren't those AP 3 weapons? Try again.
Vanquisher Cannons are AP2.
Here's the thing: I'm play Imperial Guard. If I was using my Sisters, I wouldn't be seeing the OSC.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/09 19:24:14
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
Otto von Bludd wrote: The way I'm looking at it is that in 7th edition a single lucky shot from a lascannon could take out a Rus. In 8th, you'll need a minimum of 2 lucky shots.
the issue is that it's way easier to get those 2 lucky shots in 8E than that one lucky shot in 7E
A trilas Predator for example is going to have a dramatically higher chance to outright kill a Russ in a single salvo in 8E than in 7E, which is not encouraging given how fragile Russ tanks, and vehicle in general, are in 7E.
A tri-las Predator is also likely going to get outranged by the Russ.
Battle Cannons are 72" range right now.
Lascannons are 48" range, now and in the new edition.
That's a difference of 24" where the Leman Russ can be blasting away with its Battle Cannon before the Predator can even fire one of its weapons.
And if you're so concerned about enemy tanks, why not bring along a Vanquisher to deal with them?
Functionally that range differencr is going to be irrelevant unless we're talking extreme corner to extreme corner, and then LoS is likely to be an issue anyway as well. That range advantage certainly hasnt been terribly relevant in 3rd through 7th.
Ultimately however, the point wasnt to compare and contrast those two tanks in and of themselves, but to show that vehicle resiliency isn't actually going to improve for the Russ tank.
To be fair, we don't know what special gubbins the Russ might have.
For all we know, there might be special rules where it can ignore a wound suffered on a D6 roll or ignore AP modifiers.
we can hope, but it doesnt appear isolate to just the Russ either. The Dread will also be notably easier to kill by things like Lascannons than its 7E iteration, gaining resiliency only against S6+ single damage/low ASM weapons and becoming notably easier to kill for heavier and lighter weapons that can either remove large numbers of wounds or couldnt hurt them at all before.
Hopefully there's some other changes that balance stuff out, because if not, expect Damage coupled with lower T than AV represented (as well as no upper threshold on hurting T and more weapons able to hurt at 5+ instead of 6+) to actually reduce vehicle lifespan further than 7E did.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
" Beast Hunter Command Tanks solve that problem nicely"
Aren't those AP 3 weapons? Try again.
If you're referring to the ABG, the beast hunter shell has been S8AP2 instant death regardless since 2012.
Yep, these things. Love them. At 205 a tank, you can't go wrong with as many as you can get!
Martel732 wrote: That's better than I thought. I wonder why I never saw these things spammed.
Because they're HQ's for the Armoured Battlegroup. You can have at most 2, and you also have to have 2 other not-awesome Leman Russes to go with them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/09 19:30:41
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
I don't have a problem with the rest of the Tau army. Just the Optimized Stealth Cadre and the Tideline Rig.
The former because it invalidates the entire Imperial Guard army list, whether you're Armoured Battlegroup, Mechvets, Gunline Guard, or Blob Guard.
The latter because they're like a Hammerhead, but twin-linked and indestructible.
Call it a hunch, but I have a feeling that the Tidewall stuff is going to be unusable by things like suits anymore.
That's nice, but it's still an indestructible twin-linked railcannon that can move 6" a turn. New crewmen will take the place of the one I killed, or they'll hide the one that the controller is on behind a building and send the other two out to fight.
That can move 6" a turn but never within 1" of an enemy model or if enemy models are on it.
Yeah, the overhead cost on those really hurts them because non beast-hunter russes are frankly pretty bad. 7th ed has precious little ranged instant death, making MCs with layered saves basically immortal.
I think BA are better at storming than Sisters, but that's me.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/09 19:36:30
" Beast Hunter Command Tanks solve that problem nicely"
Aren't those AP 3 weapons? Try again.
If you're referring to the ABG, the beast hunter shell has been S8AP2 instant death regardless since 2012.
Yep, these things. Love them. At 205 a tank, you can't go wrong with as many as you can get!
Martel732 wrote: That's better than I thought. I wonder why I never saw these things spammed.
Because they're HQ's for the Armoured Battlegroup. You can have at most 2, and you also have to have 2 other not-awesome Leman Russes to go with them.
Incorrection; you can have 5 if you include 3 commissar tanks with the same load out. Since tank orders are ... less than stellar for ABG you're as well.
I've had some pretty short games with 5 beast killer vanqs and 2 russ demolishers (at the old price) as troops
No the reason that the ABG isn't spammed... was because IA1v2 cost as much as two leman russes; and they still die to grav spam.
Some people find the idea that other people can be happy offensive, and will prefer causing harm to self improvement.
Martel732 wrote:Yeah, the overhead cost on those really hurts them because non beast-hunter russes are frankly pretty bad. 7th ed has precious little ranged instant death, making MCs with layered saves basically immortal.
I think BA are better at storming than Sisters, but that's me.
TC Vanq's are basically "delete an enemy model a turn", between Armourbane and Instant Death.
And Sisters are quite good a messing up the Tideline. Dominions can essentially make the front 6" of the enemy deployment zone an untenable proposition, and front 12 unsafe unless you're a Land Raider. Then, as the Dominions absorb the enemy's turn 1 firepower, you follow up with the rest of army with flamers to overrun the tideline. So far, I've found myself weaker to crisis suits and the likes, but new Celestine is awesome and helps to turn the tide. [And yes, Space Marines are probably better than Sisters. I'll acknowledge that.]
malamis wrote:
Incorrection; you can have 5 if you include 3 commissar tanks with the same load out. Since tank orders are ... less than stellar for ABG you're as well.
I've had some pretty short games with 5 beast killer vanqs and 2 russ demolishers (at the old price) as troops
No the reason that the ABG isn't spammed... was because IA1v2 cost as much as two leman russes; and they still die to grav spam.
Oh yeah, I forgot about the Commissar tanks. They get Beast Hunter shells too.
IA is expensive, and ABG isn't actually very good. It's damn fun to play though.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/05/09 20:06:49
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
Well, at least this is something.
On the one hand it does seem like some notoriously bad units are going to be buffed, and orders are finally going to be reliable, not to mention Vox casters functioning like actual radios!
On the other hand:
As someone else said, this does just feel like GW trying frantically to push up the sales on underselling and ugly models.
The Leman Russ has been incredibly heavily nerfed in terms of endurance, effectively reduced to AV12 all round. As we have no news on speed or firepower I have yet to pass judgement, but unless they either dramatically lower the price or increase the firepower and manoeuvrability then I cannot see this working out well.
Rough Riders will still need new models (but lets face it, why produce anything other than Marines GW, after all everyone faps to bolter porn).
12 wounds on a Russ... Sorry, but this is just laughable. Have fun watching massed SM Devastators shred Russ's like no tomorrow.
So, I remain to be convinced people. But at least some of this stuff is a step in the right direction.
Free from GW's tyranny and the hobby is looking better for it
DR:90-S++G+++M++B++I+Pww205++D++A+++/sWD146R++T(T)D+
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
Otto von Bludd wrote: The way I'm looking at it is that in 7th edition a single lucky shot from a lascannon could take out a Rus. In 8th, you'll need a minimum of 2 lucky shots.
the issue is that it's way easier to get those 2 lucky shots in 8E than that one lucky shot in 7E
A trilas Predator for example is going to have a dramatically higher chance to outright kill a Russ in a single salvo in 8E than in 7E, which is not encouraging given how fragile Russ tanks, and vehicle in general, are in 7E.
A tri-las Predator is also likely going to get outranged by the Russ.
Battle Cannons are 72" range right now.
Lascannons are 48" range, now and in the new edition.
That's a difference of 24" where the Leman Russ can be blasting away with its Battle Cannon before the Predator can even fire one of its weapons.
And if you're so concerned about enemy tanks, why not bring along a Vanquisher to deal with them?
Functionally that range differencr is going to be irrelevant unless we're talking extreme corner to extreme corner, and then LoS is likely to be an issue anyway as well. That range advantage certainly hasnt been terribly relevant in 3rd through 7th.
Ultimately however, the point wasnt to compare and contrast those two tanks in and of themselves, but to show that vehicle resiliency isn't actually going to improve for the Russ tank.
To be fair, we don't know what special gubbins the Russ might have.
For all we know, there might be special rules where it can ignore a wound suffered on a D6 roll or ignore AP modifiers.
we can hope, but it doesnt appear isolate to just the Russ either. The Dread will also be notably easier to kill by things like Lascannons than its 7E iteration, gaining resiliency only against S6+ single damage/low ASM weapons and becoming notably easier to kill for heavier and lighter weapons that can either remove large numbers of wounds or couldnt hurt them at all before.
Hopefully there's some other changes that balance stuff out, because if not, expect Damage coupled with lower T than AV represented (as well as no upper threshold on hurting T and more weapons able to hurt at 5+ instead of 6+) to actually reduce vehicle lifespan further than 7E did.
Vehicle lifespan in 7th was 1 shot. I don't think it gets much shorter than that.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
master of ordinance wrote: Well, at least this is something.
On the one hand it does seem like some notoriously bad units are going to be buffed, and orders are finally going to be reliable, not to mention Vox casters functioning like actual radios!
On the other hand:
As someone else said, this does just feel like GW trying frantically to push up the sales on underselling and ugly models.
The Leman Russ has been incredibly heavily nerfed in terms of endurance, effectively reduced to AV12 all round. As we have no news on speed or firepower I have yet to pass judgement, but unless they either dramatically lower the price or increase the firepower and manoeuvrability then I cannot see this working out well.
Rough Riders will still need new models (but lets face it, why produce anything other than Marines GW, after all everyone faps to bolter porn).
12 wounds on a Russ... Sorry, but this is just laughable. Have fun watching massed SM Devastators shred Russ's like no tomorrow.
So, I remain to be convinced people. But at least some of this stuff is a step in the right direction.
Massed sm devastators kill russes now. Any dev squad with splitfire is more than capable of killing 2 russes a turn.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/09 21:32:31
I'm happy to see rough riders getting some support. There is something about hundreds of soldiers with armour in the streets bombers in the air and cavalry on the fields that makes me giddy.
Well I mean LRs could have shorter lifespans with this new rule, "If a 'large model' is used in a game that is not a monstrous creature or used by the numarines, it instantly dies"
In all seriousness, LRs should live a bit longer. Hopefully.
Sentinels are amazing and I'm glad for their return.
The one thing is all they said is that Orders auto-pass (meaning vox may become more useful, which is cool), and that LRs have T8 W12 and start responding to damage after 6 wounds. Everything else was just, what if rough riders were actually good?
As for the chance of a SM with lascannon killing a LR in two shots would be
1/2 * 1/2 * 1/6 * 1/2 *1/2 * 1/6
Means a 1/576 (I think I did something wrong, that seems low) chance. So the chances of it taking two shots are pretty low.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/05/10 19:08:23
"Enemies of the Imperium, hear me. You have come here to die. The Immortal Emperor is with us and we are invincible. His soldiers will strike you down. His war machines will crush you under their treads. His mighty guns will bring the very sky crashing down upon you. You cannot win. The Emperor has given us His greatest weapon to wield. So make yourselves ready. We are the First Kronus Regiment, and today is our Victory Day. " - Governor-Militant Lukas Alexander, Commander 1st Kronus Regiment
Vehicle lifespan in 7th was 1 shot. I don't think it gets much shorter than that.
While I have been harping on vehicle survivability for years with 6E and 7E, it was not *that* bad. It could happen, but was hardly anything near routine. HP's were by far the bigger issue than oneshot Explosions. A BS4 Lascannon had a 1/54 chance to Explode a Russ tank.
Either way, looking at the average amount of Lascannon fire needed to kill a Russ, this has definitely dropped with 8E, making them even squishier if most other stuff holds equal. Now, other stuff may not hold equal, and there are absolutely things we may not have seen yet that may mitigate this,, but otherwise it looks like tanks and vehicles are going to see a net decrease in resiliency, at least against heavy and light weapons.
Massed sm devastators kill russes now. Any dev squad with splitfire is more than capable of killing 2 russes a turn.
Capable? Yes. Likely? No. Any single BS4 Lascannon had a 1/54 chance to one shot a Russ, and while thats no longer possible, between lowering the "wound" value needed (from 5+ to 3+) and Damage, such weapons will, on average, chew through tanks much faster.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
I find Leman Russes to be reasonably resilient against shooting. There are some guns that just smash the without effort, but I think the problem is those guns being too good, not the Russ being too soft, as it survives just fine against 'normal' guns like lascannon and railguns.
Where I find tanks to be waaaaaay too vulnerable is against assault. I basically count my tanks as dead as soon as any squad contacts them, and I'm almost always right. If 8th edition tones down some of the dumb guns and makes assault much less deadly for tanks then I think Leman Russes should be reasonably survivable.
If they make it so you can actually get any value whatsoever out of the hull and sponson guns I'll be really happy. (Honestly, how freaking stupid are the rules writers that they make 3/4s of the tank's guns unuseable? Drives me batty.)
Madness is however an affliction which in war carries with it the advantage of surprise - Winston Churchill
Vehicle lifespan in 7th was 1 shot. I don't think it gets much shorter than that.
While I have been harping on vehicle survivability for years with 6E and 7E, it was not *that* bad. It could happen, but was hardly anything near routine. HP's were by far the bigger issue than oneshot Explosions. A BS4 Lascannon had a 1/54 chance to Explode a Russ tank.
Either way, looking at the average amount of Lascannon fire needed to kill a Russ, this has definitely dropped with 8E, making them even squishier if most other stuff holds equal. Now, other stuff may not hold equal, and there are absolutely things we may not have seen yet that may mitigate this,, but otherwise it looks like tanks and vehicles are going to see a net decrease in resiliency, at least against heavy and light weapons.
Massed sm devastators kill russes now. Any dev squad with splitfire is more than capable of killing 2 russes a turn.
Capable? Yes. Likely? No. Any single BS4 Lascannon had a 1/54 chance to one shot a Russ, and while thats no longer possible, between lowering the "wound" value needed (from 5+ to 3+) and Damage, such weapons will, on average, chew through tanks much faster.
Which is what they should do. So long as grav and other alternatives don't remain all purpose murder tape, i'm happy to accept this. Heavy, anti tank weapons should be the choice to fill anti heavy tank roles. Not Smurf Death Beams.
Some people find the idea that other people can be happy offensive, and will prefer causing harm to self improvement.
I'm not arguing that Lascannons and the like shouldnt be effective AT guns. That said, if heavy weapons access isnt curtailed or Russ tanks made cheaper, they're not going to be any more useable than in 7E if heavy weapons are able to kill them that quickly.
We also still have no idea if things like Grav, Gauss or Haywire will be any less effective.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
Massed sm devastators kill russes now. Any dev squad with splitfire is more than capable of killing 2 russes a turn.
Capable? Yes. Likely? No. Any single BS4 Lascannon had a 1/54 chance to one shot a Russ, and while thats no longer possible, between lowering the "wound" value needed (from 5+ to 3+) and Damage, such weapons will, on average, chew through tanks much faster.
This is mathematically false. How can you even say this with a straight face?
Leman Russ Toughness: 8 Wounds: 12 Save: 3+
Lascannon Strength: 9 Wounds: D6 Save: -3
So a lascannon devastator marine hits on 3+, wounds on 3+, and the wound is saved on 6s. If it gets through it deals D6 damage. We'll calculate the damage, after we calculate the wounds. Since, damage is D6, and wounds are still 0 or 1.
A dev squad of 4 marines, firing at a Russ with no cover. Probability 0 wounds: 15.72% Probability exactly 1 wound: 36.98% Probability exactly 2 wounds: 32.62% Probability exactly 3 wounds: 12.79% Probability exactly 4 wounds: 1.88%
Now, 0 wounds does 0 damage. 0% chance to kill. 1 wound does D6 damage. 0% chance to kill. 2 wounds does 2D6 damage. 1/36 chance to kill, for a net probability of 0.91%
To model out the chance of dealing 12+ damage on ND6, I had to use a generating function and expand a polynomial. I've done this off-screen.
3 wounds does 3D6 damage. 81/216 chance to kill, for a net probability of 4.8% 4 wounds does 4D6 damage. 986/1296 chance to kill, for a net probability of 1.43%
So you could deal 2 wounds and kill it, or 3 wounds and kill it, or 4 wounds and kill it.
Meaning, your Lascannon Devastator Squad has a 7.14% chance to kill a Russ outright in 1 round of shooting.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/05/09 23:36:56
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
Massed sm devastators kill russes now. Any dev squad with splitfire is more than capable of killing 2 russes a turn.
Capable? Yes. Likely? No. Any single BS4 Lascannon had a 1/54 chance to one shot a Russ, and while thats no longer possible, between lowering the "wound" value needed (from 5+ to 3+) and Damage, such weapons will, on average, chew through tanks much faster.
This is mathematically false. How can you even say this with a straight face?
Leman Russ Toughness: 8
Wounds: 12
Save: 3+
Lascannon Strength: 9
Wounds: D6 Save: -3
So a lascannon devastator marine hits on 3+, wounds on 3+, and the wound is saved on 6s. If it gets through it deals D6 wounds. We'll calculate the damage, after we calculate the wounds. Since, damage is D6, and wounds are still 0 or 1.
A dev squad of 4 marines, firing at a Russ with no cover.
Probability 0 wounds: 15.72%
Probability exactly 1 wound: 36.98%
Probability exactly 2 wounds: 32.62%
Probability exactly 3 wounds: 12.79%
Probability exactly 4 wounds: 1.88%
Now, 0 wounds does 0 damage. 0% chance to kill.
1 wound does D6 damage. 0% chance to kill.
2 wounds does 2D6 damage. 1/36 chance to kill, for a net probability of 0.91%
To model out the chance of dealing 12+ damage on ND6, I had to use a generating function and expand a polynomial. I've done this off-screen.
3 wounds does 3D6 damage. 81/216 chance to kill, for a net probability of 4.8%
4 wounds does 4D6 damage. 986/1296 chance to kill, for a net probability of 1.43%
So you could deal 2 wounds and kill it, or 3 wounds and kill it, or 4 wounds and kill it.
Meaning, your Lascannon Devastator Squad has a 7.14% chance to kill a Russ outright in 1 round of shooting.
This is why it's silly to apply 'feelings' to a math game.
Massed sm devastators kill russes now. Any dev squad with splitfire is more than capable of killing 2 russes a turn.
Capable? Yes. Likely? No. Any single BS4 Lascannon had a 1/54 chance to one shot a Russ, and while thats no longer possible, between lowering the "wound" value needed (from 5+ to 3+) and Damage, such weapons will, on average, chew through tanks much faster.
This is mathematically false. How can you even say this with a straight face?
Leman Russ Toughness: 8
Wounds: 12
Save: 3+
Lascannon Strength: 9
Wounds: D6 Save: -3
So a lascannon devastator marine hits on 3+, wounds on 3+, and the wound is saved on 6s. If it gets through it deals D6 damage. We'll calculate the damage, after we calculate the wounds. Since, damage is D6, and wounds are still 0 or 1.
A dev squad of 4 marines, firing at a Russ with no cover.
Probability 0 wounds: 15.72%
Probability exactly 1 wound: 36.98%
Probability exactly 2 wounds: 32.62%
Probability exactly 3 wounds: 12.79%
Probability exactly 4 wounds: 1.88%
Now, 0 wounds does 0 damage. 0% chance to kill.
1 wound does D6 damage. 0% chance to kill.
2 wounds does 2D6 damage. 1/36 chance to kill, for a net probability of 0.91%
To model out the chance of dealing 12+ damage on ND6, I had to use a generating function and expand a polynomial. I've done this off-screen.
3 wounds does 3D6 damage. 81/216 chance to kill, for a net probability of 4.8%
4 wounds does 4D6 damage. 986/1296 chance to kill, for a net probability of 1.43%
So you could deal 2 wounds and kill it, or 3 wounds and kill it, or 4 wounds and kill it.
Meaning, your Lascannon Devastator Squad has a 7.14% chance to kill a Russ outright in 1 round of shooting.
Thank you this was both reassuring and enlightening. I would be curious, if you were interested, to see how that % kill chance compares to the % kill chance under 7th edition rules.
Vaktathi wrote: Ultimately the Russ may actually be more fragile than they are now
There is no situation in which the old Leman Russ is more durable then the new one. Against 7E lascannons it would take 40 lascannon shots at BS4 to kill a the new Russ, vs 14 for the old one, not counting the explodes chance. Against new lascannons only a single glancing hit will strip an old Russ to death versus 10 glances 10 needed for the new one with average rolls. Against mid-strength shooting the disparity becomes even more massive. You're being intellectually dishonest for the sake of negativity here. I can pull up a million quotes from you complaining about MC's being more durable then vehicles due to them getting saves.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/05/10 00:06:13
JNAProductions wrote: Against Bolters. AV 14/12/10 means that, unless you get into its butt, you can't hurt it.
Or what about Lasguns? They can never hurt the old Russ.
So statistically small that it's meaningless to even bring up. It takes on average 432 las shots at BS3 to put 12 wounds on a T8 3+ model. 860 shots if camo-netting still gives +1 to saves.
So yes, please do spend 6 turns pouring literally every single anti-infantry weapon your army has into this single leman russ that I have. Please let me beat you every single time because you're trying to kill a tank with lasguns.
It's very interesting to me that Guard players whine about fighting Tau more then anybody else. Why complain? You can apparently just kill their Riptides with your lasguns dude!
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/05/10 00:13:37
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