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Pancakey wrote:
"And the hype train just rolls on!"

Is he part of the GW marketing department now too?

He plays Guard and has often, rightly, lamented how many of the units in the codex are totally useless. He has every reason to be happy things like Rough Riders and Ratlings will be making a comeback. I think MOST Guard players would feel hyped about such a revelation.

Let's start with the standard Russ not being crippled in the shooting phase by its own main gun.

Course, now it'll be wounded on 6s by Lasguns from the front arc.

Martel732 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Otto von Bludd wrote:
The way I'm looking at it is that in 7th edition a single lucky shot from a lascannon could take out a Rus. In 8th, you'll need a minimum of 2 lucky shots.

the issue is that it's way easier to get those 2 lucky shots in 8E than that one lucky shot in 7E

A trilas Predator for example is going to have a dramatically higher chance to outright kill a Russ in a single salvo in 8E than in 7E, which is not encouraging given how fragile Russ tanks, and vehicle in general, are in 7E.

Tri-las predators SHOULD be lethal to other tanks. Not the joke they currently are. Cost them appropriately.

I'm not arguing that Trilas predators shouldnt be good tank killers, that wasn't a "zomg trilas preds will be broken" post, but rather using an example of something we have actual weapons stats for to show that Russ tanks are absolutely not any tougher even with the previously unheard of 12 wounds, and were already thought of as being too fragile.

A lot is still up in the air, but vehicle resiliency, from what we have seen thus far, doesnt look like its going to be getting any better except against stuff like Scatterlasers, which Russ tanks were already effectively immune to.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Course, now it'll be wounded on 6s by Lasguns from the front arc.

So? You could wound Riptides with lasguns, too.

I'm cautiously favorable:
* Scout Sentinels "great?"; Bullgryns & Rough Riders "actually scary in combat?"
* HWS "providing covering fire"?
* Commissars are a bubble
* (Ratling) snipers "pick out and target Characters"
* Russes are T8 W12 Sv3+, fully effective with 7+ wounds.
* "Orders work automatically now"
* FRFSRF is Rapid-Fire 2 (for up to 4 shots <12"

All of that sounds good, but I'll need to see the details. It's not my first rodeo with this. IIRC, the last Codex got hyped, too.

Pancakey wrote:

8th edition shooting is going to see models removed from the table at a pace never before seen in a non-apocalypse game. It's going to be absolutely insane. So insane in fact that GW had to create a special rule to protect characters from the intense "uber-shooting".

If an IC like ROWBOAT needs "special protection" via rules, what hope do non protected models have!

we'll see, not super enthused about IC's going back to 4E invisible status, we'll see how that works out.

Otto von Bludd wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Otto von Bludd wrote:
The way I'm looking at it is that in 7th edition a single lucky shot from a lascannon could take out a Rus. In 8th, you'll need a minimum of 2 lucky shots.

the issue is that it's way easier to get those 2 lucky shots in 8E than that one lucky shot in 7E

A trilas Predator for example is going to have a dramatically higher chance to outright kill a Russ in a single salvo in 8E than in 7E, which is not encouraging given how fragile Russ tanks, and vehicle in general, are in 7E.

I do indeed see where you are coming from; a krak missile will wound a Rus on a 4+ now compared to a 6+, for example. However, I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing that a dedicated anti tank weapon is good against tanks. If my Rus dies because it was hit with a couple lucky lascannons I much much less annoyed than I would be (or rather, am, because this happens all the time in 7th) if it dies from 3 rear bolter hits or 3 space marine bro fists in melee like we see now.

In some ways, sure. And those CC issues definitely needed to be addressed (though Powerfists are likely to get multiple damage as well), but if heavy weapons access is not dramatically curtailed, I would expect to see tank losses occur even faster.

I think it's a good trade off to be honest. However we need to know how vehicle cover works and, like you said, how much firepower a Rus can put out now before we can make a more accurate judgement as to its worth.

aye, not the end of the world yet, but definitely vehicles are not as strong and resilient as they are being made out to be assuming current costs, heavy weapons availability, etc remains *roughly* the same.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Otto von Bludd wrote:
The way I'm looking at it is that in 7th edition a single lucky shot from a lascannon could take out a Rus. In 8th, you'll need a minimum of 2 lucky shots.

the issue is that it's way easier to get those 2 lucky shots in 8E than that one lucky shot in 7E

A trilas Predator for example is going to have a dramatically higher chance to outright kill a Russ in a single salvo in 8E than in 7E, which is not encouraging given how fragile Russ tanks, and vehicle in general, are in 7E.

Tri-las predators SHOULD be lethal to other tanks. Not the joke they currently are. Cost them appropriately.

I'm not arguing that Trilas predators shouldnt be good tank killers, that wasn't a "zomg trilas preds will be broken" post, but rather using an example of something we have actual weapons stats for to show that Russ tanks are absolutely not any tougher even with the previously unheard of 12 wounds, and were already thought of as being too fragile.

A lot is still up in the air, but vehicle resiliency, from what we have seen thus far, doesnt look like its going to be getting any better except against stuff like Scatterlasers, which Russ tanks were already effectively immune to.

They are much tougher because all the AV-ignoring gimmicks are no longer an issue. T8 12W 3+ is no joke with the weapons they have posted so far. We don't what smoke will do either, for example.

Martel732 wrote:


They are much tougher because all the AV-ignoring gimmicks are no longer an issue. T8 12W 3+ is no joke with the weapons they have posted so far. We don't what smoke will do either, for example.

Suddenly, a double HP wraithknight is considered 'weak'?

What giggles me to the 'nth degree is the non-existence of double immobilized results. This and this alone makes the Russ viable in ways it hasn't been since 4th.

Roll on 8th, and by t'Emprah I'm looking forward to what happens to flyers.

Martel732 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Otto von Bludd wrote:
The way I'm looking at it is that in 7th edition a single lucky shot from a lascannon could take out a Rus. In 8th, you'll need a minimum of 2 lucky shots.

the issue is that it's way easier to get those 2 lucky shots in 8E than that one lucky shot in 7E

A trilas Predator for example is going to have a dramatically higher chance to outright kill a Russ in a single salvo in 8E than in 7E, which is not encouraging given how fragile Russ tanks, and vehicle in general, are in 7E.

Tri-las predators SHOULD be lethal to other tanks. Not the joke they currently are. Cost them appropriately.

I'm not arguing that Trilas predators shouldnt be good tank killers, that wasn't a "zomg trilas preds will be broken" post, but rather using an example of something we have actual weapons stats for to show that Russ tanks are absolutely not any tougher even with the previously unheard of 12 wounds, and were already thought of as being too fragile.

A lot is still up in the air, but vehicle resiliency, from what we have seen thus far, doesnt look like its going to be getting any better except against stuff like Scatterlasers, which Russ tanks were already effectively immune to.

They are much tougher because all the AV-ignoring gimmicks are no longer an issue.

Hrm, we don't know that. Stuff like haywire and D will be translated in some way into 8th even if in different forms than in 7E. That's up in the air either way still methinks.

T8 12W 3+ is no joke with the weapons they have posted so far.

it makes the Russ vulnerable to weapons it was never vulnerable to before (like Autocannons which will wound on 5's, and may possibly have multiple damage as well), and makes most weapons it *was* vulnerable to before easier to wound with (e.g. Lascannon wounding on 3's instead of 5's), and since almost all of those will inevitably be multi Damage weapons, that W12 is very likely to average out to be pretty identical to HP3, for Lascannons this is certainly the case, except now they're also wounding twice as easily, just with no damage table.

We don't what smoke will do either, for example.

true, but if it is anything like previous iterations, it is unlikely to be of terrific use to the Russ. Hopfully that will change, but we just dont know yet.

 malamis wrote:

Martel732 wrote:


They are much tougher because all the AV-ignoring gimmicks are no longer an issue. T8 12W 3+ is no joke with the weapons they have posted so far. We don't what smoke will do either, for example.

Suddenly, a double HP wraithknight is considered 'weak'?

What giggles me to the 'nth degree is the non-existence of double immobilized results. This and this alone makes the Russ viable in ways it hasn't been since 4th.

Roll on 8th, and by t'Emprah I'm looking forward to what happens to flyers.

well, realize that lascannon hitting a WK currently hits, then wounds on 3's then they get cover if applicable and fnp to do a single wound. now that will be D6 (if I remember the lascannon correctly)wounds done so the lascannon could in theory one shot a WK

I think it's a good trade off to be honest. However we need to know how vehicle cover works and, like you said, how much firepower a Rus can put out now before we can make a more accurate judgement as to its worth.

aye, not the end of the world yet, but definitely vehicles are not as strong and resilient as they are being made out to be assuming current costs, heavy weapons availability, etc remains *roughly* the same

I think this is going to be pretty good.

It will now take over 100 hits from Burst Cannons to take down Leman Russes, so the Tau Optimized Stealth Cadre can go and shove it.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Otto von Bludd wrote:
The way I'm looking at it is that in 7th edition a single lucky shot from a lascannon could take out a Rus. In 8th, you'll need a minimum of 2 lucky shots.

the issue is that it's way easier to get those 2 lucky shots in 8E than that one lucky shot in 7E

A trilas Predator for example is going to have a dramatically higher chance to outright kill a Russ in a single salvo in 8E than in 7E, which is not encouraging given how fragile Russ tanks, and vehicle in general, are in 7E.

A tri-las Predator is also likely going to get outranged by the Russ.

Battle Cannons are 72" range right now.
Lascannons are 48" range, now and in the new edition.

That's a difference of 24" where the Leman Russ can be blasting away with its Battle Cannon before the Predator can even fire one of its weapons.
And if you're so concerned about enemy tanks, why not bring along a Vanquisher to deal with them?

 G00fySmiley wrote:

well, realize that lascannon hitting a WK currently hits, then wounds on 3's then they get cover if applicable and fnp to do a single wound. now that will be D6 (if I remember the lascannon correctly)wounds done so the lascannon could in theory one shot a WK

Which is, thematically, what lascannons should be doing anyway. If the IK is going to have 18 wounds ( if I remember that right) the WK will probably have the same - so the russ becomes, by the measure of its superiors, a pretty heavy duty vehicle.

48" is effectively unlimited range, if they're in the table center. LoS is a bigger issue.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Otto von Bludd wrote:
The way I'm looking at it is that in 7th edition a single lucky shot from a lascannon could take out a Rus. In 8th, you'll need a minimum of 2 lucky shots.

the issue is that it's way easier to get those 2 lucky shots in 8E than that one lucky shot in 7E

A trilas Predator for example is going to have a dramatically higher chance to outright kill a Russ in a single salvo in 8E than in 7E, which is not encouraging given how fragile Russ tanks, and vehicle in general, are in 7E.

A tri-las Predator is also likely going to get outranged by the Russ.

Battle Cannons are 72" range right now.
Lascannons are 48" range, now and in the new edition.

That's a difference of 24" where the Leman Russ can be blasting away with its Battle Cannon before the Predator can even fire one of its weapons.
And if you're so concerned about enemy tanks, why not bring along a Vanquisher to deal with them?

We can but hope we'll see variety in Russ variants from now on, especially since it's beginning to feel there is a reason to use them.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
I think this is going to be pretty good.

It will now take over 100 hits from Burst Cannons to take down Leman Russes, so the Tau Optimized Stealth Cadre can go and shove it.

Don't worry I'm sure they found a way to nerf everything about the Tau despite claims they are trying to make a balanced game. However I'm afraid the IG are probably still screwed from space marine nu deathstars that unwittingly created when they said characters are invincible when behind someone. Shooting armies are RIP now. The meta will be to take as much invincible melee super characters as possible and bubble wrap them and run them up the field.

 Gamgee wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
I think this is going to be pretty good.

It will now take over 100 hits from Burst Cannons to take down Leman Russes, so the Tau Optimized Stealth Cadre can go and shove it.

Don't worry I'm sure they found a way to nerf everything about the Tau despite claims they are trying to make a balanced game. However I'm afraid the IG are probably still screwed from space marine nu deathstars that unwittingly created when they said characters are invincible when behind someone. Shooting armies are RIP now. The meta will be to take as much invincible melee super characters as possible and bubble wrap them and run them up the field.

Are you factoring in the detail that blast weapons are going to become relevant? If unit positioning shenanigans are to be dead and gone, the guard's low ROF, high *AOE* and high strength weapons are going to do marvelous things. Consider that even if smalls blasts are just d3 with avg 1.5, that a LR Executioner is effectively armed with 9 range 36" plasma guns. Emprah only knows what nonsense the Punisher and demolisher will get up to.

Martel732 wrote:
We don't what smoke will do either, for example.

We do, actually.

Warhammer Community Shooting article wrote:There are a few other factors that affect hit rolls too – smoke launchers on a vehicle, for example, have the same effect of -1 to hit.

One thing I'm excited about: automatic orders mean vox-casters can resume their role of long-range morale support. I always hated how you needed a sophisticated backpack-mounted communications array to do the equivalent of yelling "WHAT??" at a guy fifteen feet away from you.

That always seemed perverse to me. I mean, it's a radio - it should be extending the range of orders, belike.

 Gamgee wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
I think this is going to be pretty good.

It will now take over 100 hits from Burst Cannons to take down Leman Russes, so the Tau Optimized Stealth Cadre can go and shove it.

Don't worry I'm sure they found a way to nerf everything about the Tau despite claims they are trying to make a balanced game. However I'm afraid the IG are probably still screwed from space marine nu deathstars that unwittingly created when they said characters are invincible when behind someone. Shooting armies are RIP now. The meta will be to take as much invincible melee super characters as possible and bubble wrap them and run them up the field.

One can only hope that Tau get the nerf stick pretty hard.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Otto von Bludd wrote:
The way I'm looking at it is that in 7th edition a single lucky shot from a lascannon could take out a Rus. In 8th, you'll need a minimum of 2 lucky shots.

the issue is that it's way easier to get those 2 lucky shots in 8E than that one lucky shot in 7E

A trilas Predator for example is going to have a dramatically higher chance to outright kill a Russ in a single salvo in 8E than in 7E, which is not encouraging given how fragile Russ tanks, and vehicle in general, are in 7E.

A tri-las Predator is also likely going to get outranged by the Russ.

Battle Cannons are 72" range right now.
Lascannons are 48" range, now and in the new edition.

That's a difference of 24" where the Leman Russ can be blasting away with its Battle Cannon before the Predator can even fire one of its weapons.
And if you're so concerned about enemy tanks, why not bring along a Vanquisher to deal with them?

Functionally that range differencr is going to be irrelevant unless we're talking extreme corner to extreme corner, and then LoS is likely to be an issue anyway as well. That range advantage certainly hasnt been terribly relevant in 3rd through 7th.

Ultimately however, the point wasnt to compare and contrast those two tanks in and of themselves, but to show that vehicle resiliency isn't actually going to improve for the Russ tank.

Resiliency isn't really its current problem anyway except in VERY specific cases. It's the fact that you can fire a squadron of russes at a riptide or dreadknight the whole game and never kill them. Russes need FIREPOWER, not to be invincible.

Gamgee wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
I think this is going to be pretty good.

It will now take over 100 hits from Burst Cannons to take down Leman Russes, so the Tau Optimized Stealth Cadre can go and shove it.

Don't worry I'm sure they found a way to nerf everything about the Tau despite claims they are trying to make a balanced game. However I'm afraid the IG are probably still screwed from space marine nu deathstars that unwittingly created when they said characters are invincible when behind someone. Shooting armies are RIP now. The meta will be to take as much invincible melee super characters as possible and bubble wrap them and run them up the field.

I doubt it. While I'm excited about getting into melee with my Sisters and Wolves, I'm also looking forward to running ABG again. Here's hoping Battle Cannons are good. And the Tau can use a good thwacking with the nerfbat anyway.

Martel732 wrote:

One can only hope that Tau get the nerf stick pretty hard.

I don't have a problem with the rest of the Tau army. Just the Optimized Stealth Cadre and the Tideline Rig.

The former because it invalidates the entire Imperial Guard army list, whether you're Armoured Battlegroup, Mechvets, Gunline Guard, or Blob Guard.

The latter because they're like a Hammerhead, but twin-linked and indestructible.

Riptides and Stormsurge need to die in a fire.

OSC means nothing against MCs, so I'd probably never use one because vehicles are crappy enough without taking a formation to make them even crappier.

Invalidating a bad list doesn't get you anywhere in the meta, though.

Martel732 wrote:
Riptides and Stormsurge need to die in a fire.

OSC means nothing against MCs, so I'd probably never use one because vehicles are crappy enough without taking a formation to make them even crappier.

Invalidating a bad list doesn't get you anywhere in the meta, though.

honestly I just think a riptide should be unique as should a wraithknight or stormsurge. would be cool to have heavy duty units like that that are not spammable. same for imperial knights but I doubt they would ever do that.

I have never had a problem against tau when they took 1 riptide or 1 stormsurge (or 1 ghostkeel) the issue is with packs and formations to hit rear armor or jus thave a ton of wounds and allocating to closes model

 G00fySmiley wrote:
honestly I just think a riptide should be unique as should a wraithknight or stormsurge. would be cool to have heavy duty units like that that are not spammable. same for imperial knights but I doubt they would ever do that.

I have never had a problem against tau when they took 1 riptide or 1 stormsurge (or 1 ghostkeel) the issue is with packs and formations to hit rear armor or jus thave a ton of wounds and allocating to closes model

Unique as in 1 only regardless of army size?

No thanks. No such unscalable rules.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Otto von Bludd wrote:
The way I'm looking at it is that in 7th edition a single lucky shot from a lascannon could take out a Rus. In 8th, you'll need a minimum of 2 lucky shots.

the issue is that it's way easier to get those 2 lucky shots in 8E than that one lucky shot in 7E

A trilas Predator for example is going to have a dramatically higher chance to outright kill a Russ in a single salvo in 8E than in 7E, which is not encouraging given how fragile Russ tanks, and vehicle in general, are in 7E.

A tri-las Predator is also likely going to get outranged by the Russ.

Battle Cannons are 72" range right now.
Lascannons are 48" range, now and in the new edition.

That's a difference of 24" where the Leman Russ can be blasting away with its Battle Cannon before the Predator can even fire one of its weapons.
And if you're so concerned about enemy tanks, why not bring along a Vanquisher to deal with them?

Functionally that range differencr is going to be irrelevant unless we're talking extreme corner to extreme corner, and then LoS is likely to be an issue anyway as well. That range advantage certainly hasnt been terribly relevant in 3rd through 7th.

Ultimately however, the point wasnt to compare and contrast those two tanks in and of themselves, but to show that vehicle resiliency isn't actually going to improve for the Russ tank.

To be fair, we don't know what special gubbins the Russ might have.

For all we know, there might be special rules where it can ignore a wound suffered on a D6 roll or ignore AP modifiers.

 G00fySmiley wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Riptides and Stormsurge need to die in a fire.

OSC means nothing against MCs, so I'd probably never use one because vehicles are crappy enough without taking a formation to make them even crappier.

Invalidating a bad list doesn't get you anywhere in the meta, though.

honestly I just think a riptide should be unique as should a wraithknight or stormsurge. would be cool to have heavy duty units like that that are not spammable. same for imperial knights but I doubt they would ever do that.

I have never had a problem against tau when they took 1 riptide or 1 stormsurge (or 1 ghostkeel) the issue is with packs and formations to hit rear armor or jus thave a ton of wounds and allocating to closes model

Pretty much. One Riptide, even 3 is a solvable problem. Beast Hunter Command Tanks solve that problem nicely, or a giant pile of Lascannons.

But then you get the OSC, and the formations which are "bring 3, and ignore all cover and hit all tanks on rear armor." And you know what happens when I bring 3 tanks together? Gee, I got 3 tanks! Yay!