Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Spacemanvic wrote:

nfe wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:
There must be some thought leaders promoting and ultimately responsible for these crimes. It seems to me that the UK intelligence apparatus must get smart enough to identify these individuals and deal with them accordingly.

To give them their due, the UK intelligence services are one of, if not the, most respected such institutions on the planet.

Free speech should not be a shield for inciting people to murder.

As it goes, free speech is not universal in the UK, as it is in some democracies. That may be a good or bad thing, depending on your perspective, but you aren't free to incite hatred or murder here. People do and get away with it, obviously, but there are laws there to pursue them.

Laws only effect those who choose to be subject to them. The savages roaming the UK and perpetrating the attacks choose to be subject to another law. Those people should be made to live somewhere else, and telling them so should not be considered hate law. The subjects of the UK have hog tied themselves.

So you're recommending, then, that individuals in the process of committing a terrorist attack be deported?

I'm assuming you're using the term 'savages' to refer to people conducting indiscriminate killing in a manner designed to sow fear, rather than toward, say, Middle Eastern immigrants, or refugees, or Muslims in general. That'd be pretty fethed up.

Stay safe, UK. My heart goes out to all those affected.

 Spacemanvic wrote:


Laws only effect those who choose to be subject to them. The savages roaming the UK and perpetrating the attacks choose to be subject to another law. Those people should be made to live somewhere else, and telling them so should not be considered hate law. The subjects of the UK have hog tied themselves.

"Savages roaming the UK"??

I'm assuming you've never been to the UK because you make it sound like there are people running in gangs causing atrocities everywhere?

The number of people committing these crimes is tiny (and insignificant) compared to the actual number of people in the population.

If there is one good thing about the UK is that it does treat everyone equally. Yes some people commit terrible crimes but that doesn't mean we should start running rough shod over everyone's freedoms - and lets face it that is what you have to do because terrorists don't run around with great big neon arrows pointing at themselves saying "Kill all humans"

 Spacemanvic wrote:

Laws only effect those who choose to be subject to them. The savages roaming the UK and perpetrating the attacks choose to be subject to another law. Those people should be made to live somewhere else

Where? In the majority (if not all? I'd need to check) of cases those perpetrating Islamist terror in the UK have been UK citizens. I can only think of one (self-identified) state that would accept UK nationals who are Islamic terrorists, and I really wouldn't want to give them more troops.

 Spacemanvic wrote:
and telling them so should not be considered hate law.

Fear not, it isn't. Lots of people, including politicians, do it daily without legal recourse.

 Spinner wrote:

 Spacemanvic wrote:

nfe wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:
There must be some thought leaders promoting and ultimately responsible for these crimes. It seems to me that the UK intelligence apparatus must get smart enough to identify these individuals and deal with them accordingly.

To give them their due, the UK intelligence services are one of, if not the, most respected such institutions on the planet.

Free speech should not be a shield for inciting people to murder.

As it goes, free speech is not universal in the UK, as it is in some democracies. That may be a good or bad thing, depending on your perspective, but you aren't free to incite hatred or murder here. People do and get away with it, obviously, but there are laws there to pursue them.

Laws only effect those who choose to be subject to them. The savages roaming the UK and perpetrating the attacks choose to be subject to another law. Those people should be made to live somewhere else, and telling them so should not be considered hate law. The subjects of the UK have hog tied themselves.

So you're recommending, then, that individuals in the process of committing a terrorist attack be deported?

I'm assuming you're using the term 'savages' to refer to people conducting indiscriminate killing in a manner designed to sow fear, rather than toward, say, Middle Eastern immigrants, or refugees, or Muslims in general. That'd be pretty fethed up.

Stay safe, UK. My heart goes out to all those affected.

Im recommending that those known to have leanings that lead to terrorism be denied entry, and those incountry who are advocating violence be thrown out. Those committing the acts should be hunted and put down like the rabid dogs they are.

And dont kid yourself, it isnt indiscriminate killings, its targeted with the stated goal of replacing one form of law/government with another, a markedly theocratic one.

I did not mention people of a particular region or religion because, thankfully, it isnt all of them, just a savage few who happen to be rabidly muslim.

Actually, many Muslims are NOT in favor of ISIS or its methods:


Source: Pew Research link: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/05/26/muslims-and-islam-key-findings-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/


Support of Sharia is high, especially in areas where Islam is dominant, but why shouldnt it be? It is after all, their religion:


Source: Pew Research link: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/05/26/muslims-and-islam-key-findings-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/

The focus should be on discovering those looking for trouble, and dissuading them from doing so. Permanently. If not, the tepid response so far will only serve to embolden those hell-bent on making attacks. The UK is a small country, with a highly lauded intelligence service. This shouldnt be a herculean task for the intelligence service, especially with support from the population at large.

Now, if someone thinks this is advocating action on ALL muslims, that person should be introspective and really think why they would think this applies to all people of a given region or religion.

My brothers friend who was there at the time is ok, so there's a small relief.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
My brothers friend who was there at the time is ok, so there's a small relief.

Excellent news. Prayers and positive thoughts out to UK.

 Spacemanvic wrote:

Im recommending that those known to have leanings that lead to terrorism be denied entry, and those incountry who are advocating violence be thrown out.

I'm not necessarily averse to such a plan, but again, when they're mostly UK nationals, where do you send them?

nfe wrote:

 Spacemanvic wrote:

Im recommending that those known to have leanings that lead to terrorism be denied entry, and those incountry who are advocating violence be thrown out.

I'm not necessarily averse to such a plan, but again, when they're mostly UK nationals, where do you send them?

Even if they're not, what if country X won't take them?

 Future War Cultist wrote:
My brothers friend who was there at the time is ok, so there's a small relief.

On that we can agree. Stay safe everyone.

nfe wrote:

 Spacemanvic wrote:

Im recommending that those known to have leanings that lead to terrorism be denied entry, and those incountry who are advocating violence be thrown out.

I'm not necessarily averse to such a plan, but again, when they're mostly UK nationals, where do you send them?

Are those UK nationals advocating violence? The UK has to decide what to do with those individuals, then live with the consequences of that decision. Those who have advocated violence that others have acted upon should be dealt with as if they committed the act themselves.

As it stands now, you'd better learn to duck.

 Spacemanvic wrote:

Now, if someone thinks this is advocating action on ALL muslims, that person should be introspective and really think why they would think this applies to all people of a given region or religion.

Because frequently, in the wake of a horrific attack like this one, people with a particular axe to grind tend to lay blame at the feet of an entire demographic of people, couching it in terms of 'we should be doing more' and 'the government shouldn't have its hands tied by political correctness' and so forth. If that wasn't your intent, then I'm happy to hear it.

I'm well aware that Muslims on the whole don't particularly care for ISIS; they certainly don't have any problem victimizing Muslims in their atrocities.

And by 'indiscriminate', I didn't mean without a goal; more like 'not particularly caring about who they're killing'.

 Spinner wrote:

 Spacemanvic wrote:

Now, if someone thinks this is advocating action on ALL muslims, that person should be introspective and really think why they would think this applies to all people of a given region or religion.

Because frequently, in the wake of a horrific attack like this one, people with a particular axe to grind tend to lay blame at the feet of an entire demographic of people, couching it in terms of 'we should be doing more' and 'the government shouldn't have its hands tied by political correctness' and so forth. If that wasn't your intent, then I'm happy to hear it.

I'm well aware that Muslims on the whole don't particularly care for ISIS; they certainly don't have any problem victimizing Muslims in their atrocities.

And by 'indiscriminate', I didn't mean without a goal; more like 'not particularly caring about who they're killing'.

Oh I agree. in this country, FDR used Pearl Harbor as an excuse to forcibly detain American citizens of Japanese ancestry. And George Bush and Obama used the terrorist attacks to infringe upon the rights of American citizens. Neither action directly addressed the issue at hand, it merely took advantage of a crisis (never let a crisis go to waste).

In this instance however, I think the course is clear: directly act against those who are advocating and perpetrating the terrorism. Or continue to wring your hands and do nothing except mourn those lost and wish that the violent miscreants find another avenue with which to express themselves. Either way, this problem will resolve itself. How that resolution ends will depend on what actions are taken by those affected.

Now Im off to wage a Crusade against the tall grass and weeds that have decided to take advantage of my being busy with other things. Acres turn to jungle in short order.

It's worth pointing out to people, in case they don't know, that members of Britain's Muslim community warned the police on numerous occasions that the Manchester bomber was going down a bad path.

Sadly, their warnings were not acted upon...

In the UK, there are numerous programmes that try and stop people from being radicalised, but getting results is not an overnight process.

It doesn't help that in the last 7 years, police numbers in Britain have been slashed. As a short-term fix, we need to start boosting the numbers again.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

Ace From Outer Space wrote:
The IRA and the alphabet soup of Nirthern Irish terrorists didn't win and neither will these idiots.

The IRA didn't win? They got amnesty deals, a withdrawal of British troops from Northern Ireland, IRA prisoners were released, and a political power sharing deal. Former members and allies of the IRA are in government or have been in government. How is that not a victory?

Thats Tony Blair and his bend over politics for you. It's disgusting. To watch them now parading the corridors of power laughing at their victims makes all right thinking people sick to their stomach.

History is there to teach us lessons. I hope as country we don't allow th false narrative to become history and we believe that terrorists can be talked sense and reasoned with. This didn't happen with the IRA no matter what revisionism tries to say. The truth is intelligence and the SAS had them beaten and then along came Tony with a deal that saved them face and gave them a bundle of goodies.

These new evil men need the same medicine from our excellent security services and special forces without the nasty little deals.

I know many think ISIS don't have a plan or goal, but that's not true we just don't understand it yet, it's probably changing within itself but given time it will emerge into defined goals and aspirations. A state within the UK governed by Sharia? Who knows but a plan will emerge and demands will be made. No one flew over Northern Ireland in 1969 and dropped looney gas over the place the mindset to kill was there it was an ideology, same with the Nazis and same with ISIS. Don't write them off as mad. They are what they are evil, with an evil, cleverly thought out ideology.

Also, for non-British dakka members who may not know this, we in Britain prefer our police to be unarmed.

Obviously we have specialist armed police for when the gak hits the fan, but the stereotype image of the British policeman (or woman) is a community cop walking the streets, relying on local knowledge to defuse any situations, and for a long time, the weapon of choice was a sturdy piece of wood, and a whistle to summon reinforcements if needed.

Yes, there is some myth to this image, but it's an image that is strongly part of the British identity.

So having more armed police, or soldiers on the streets, makes people uneasy, and will meet with resistance.

 Spacemanvic wrote:

nfe wrote:

 Spacemanvic wrote:

Im recommending that those known to have leanings that lead to terrorism be denied entry, and those incountry who are advocating violence be thrown out.

I'm not necessarily averse to such a plan, but again, when they're mostly UK nationals, where do you send them?

Are those UK nationals advocating violence?

Almost everyone (or it might actually be everyone, as I said above I'd need to check) that has been directly incolved in Islamic terrorism in the UK has been a UK national, yes. So if we should deport them, where do we send them?

As it stands now, you'd better learn to duck.

We're still one of the safest countries in the world. We'll all go on leading our lives as normal and almost every single one of us will never encounter anything like this personally. Thank goodness.

nfe wrote:

 Spacemanvic wrote:

nfe wrote:

 Spacemanvic wrote:

Im recommending that those known to have leanings that lead to terrorism be denied entry, and those incountry who are advocating violence be thrown out.

I'm not necessarily averse to such a plan, but again, when they're mostly UK nationals, where do you send them?

Are those UK nationals advocating violence?

Almost everyone (or it might actually be everyone, as I said above I'd need to check) that has been directly incolved in Islamic terrorism in the UK has been a UK national, yes. So if we should deport them, where do we send them?

Henderson Island? The island has a severe problem with plastic pollution, perhaps we could sentence Jihadi's to community service cleaning the island up?

Anything to get the fethers out of British society permanently.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

nfe wrote:

 Spacemanvic wrote:

nfe wrote:

 Spacemanvic wrote:

Im recommending that those known to have leanings that lead to terrorism be denied entry, and those incountry who are advocating violence be thrown out.

I'm not necessarily averse to such a plan, but again, when they're mostly UK nationals, where do you send them?

Are those UK nationals advocating violence?

Almost everyone (or it might actually be everyone, as I said above I'd need to check) that has been directly incolved in Islamic terrorism in the UK has been a UK national, yes. So if we should deport them, where do we send them?

Henderson Island? The island has a severe problem with plastic pollution, perhaps we could sentence Jihadi's to community service cleaning the island up?

Anything to get the fethers out of British society permanently.

Not worst idea. And a tropical island is hardly worst place wr could send them...

I think we can squarely lay the blame for the increasing frequency of these attacks at Theresa May's feet. Fething b

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/london-terror-attack-bridge-borough-latest-firearms-officer-government-wrong-police-cuts-theresa-may-a7772506.html?cmpid=facebook-post#gallery

She's a feth up.

I applaud the bravery of the lone officer who tried to stop them with just a baton. I will say though that if he had a gun he could have potentially stopped them there and then and not got injured in the process. Tradition or not, I don't think unarmed police work. Especially these days.

The average Police officer does not want to be armed. I'm inclined to agree.

What we need is MORE Police officers. We need proactive, preventative Community. That means your traditional "Bobby on the beat", officers who come from and intimately know their local community. They are the ones who feed Intel to intelligence services.

Instead what we get is a bare bones "cost effective" reactive Police force, racing from one crisis to the next but always too late, always arriving after the fact. This didn't begin under the Tories but it sure as hell accelerated with their cuts to Policing.

Y'all could just identify where the terrorists are coming from first and stop it there.

Terrorism is like a weed. You can mow it over with police but it'll keep coming back as long as its got a root.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
Y'all could just identify where the terrorists are coming from first and stop it there.

Terrorism is like a weed. You can mow it over with police but it'll keep coming back as long as its got a root.

Pulling out humanity by the roots sure sounds viable, Mr. Dalek.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
Y'all could just identify where the terrorists are coming from first and stop it there.

Terrorism is like a weed. You can mow it over with police but it'll keep coming back as long as its got a root.

Pulling out humanity by the roots sure sounds viable, Mr. Dalek.

Are you saying we shouldn't investigate the causes of terrorism? We should just let it fester so more people can die?

nfe wrote:

 Spacemanvic wrote:

Im recommending that those known to have leanings that lead to terrorism be denied entry, and those incountry who are advocating violence be thrown out.

I'm not necessarily averse to such a plan, but again, when they're mostly UK nationals, where do you send them?

Where you send all undesirables, vagrants, and all around badness....Cleveland Ohio.

Listening to idiots demand that BTP all be armed.

I hate to point this out but bullets in a crowded station or rail car is a BAD thing. Regular cops one assumes are highly trained managed to kill a bystander in this as is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 thekingofkings wrote:
Where you send all undesirables, vagrants, and all around badness....Cleveland Ohio.

the Mistake on the Lake is bad, but if you want to go full on Thunderdome with them, I recommend Youngstown Ohio.

 BaronIveagh wrote:
Listening to idiots demand that BTP all be armed.

I hate to point this out but bullets in a crowded station or rail car is a BAD thing. Regular cops one assumes are highly trained managed to kill a bystander in this as is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 thekingofkings wrote:
Where you send all undesirables, vagrants, and all around badness....Cleveland Ohio.

the Mistake on the Lake is bad, but if you want to go full on Thunderdome with them, I recommend Youngstown Ohio.

I am not that cruel, though I will make them watch the Cavs get smashed up.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
Y'all could just identify where the terrorists are coming from first and stop it there.

Terrorism is like a weed. You can mow it over with police but it'll keep coming back as long as its got a root.

Pulling out humanity by the roots sure sounds viable, Mr. Dalek.

Are you saying we shouldn't investigate the causes of terrorism? We should just let it fester so more people can die?

And you think you can just go ahead and pull out that entire mess by the roots at once?

This issue is far too big for a gordian knot to fix.

By all means, nothing wrong with investigation, but this is just the symptoms of a much more widespread issue - or rather, a large number of issues.

Some folks over in Saudi Arabia fund terrorism if I recall correctly, for example. I am sure putting a stop to that will help.

...Assuming you have a way to do that.

Oh and I smell a thinly veiled agenda behind your post, but I won't make any accusations yet and instead just silently make a bet with myself if I am right.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
Y'all could just identify where the terrorists are coming from first and stop it there.

Terrorism is like a weed. You can mow it over with police but it'll keep coming back as long as its got a root.

Pulling out humanity by the roots sure sounds viable, Mr. Dalek.

Are you saying we shouldn't investigate the causes of terrorism? We should just let it fester so more people can die?

And you think you can just go ahead and pull out that entire mess by the roots at once?

This issue is far too big for a gordian knot to fix.

Maybe it is just that easy, but who knows.

By all means, nothing wrong with investigation, but this is just the symptoms of a much more widespread issue - or rather, a large number of issues.

Some folks over in Saudi Arabia fund terrorism if I recall correctly, for example. I am sure putting a stop to that will help.

...Assuming you have a way to do that.

I am just a plebeian giving his opinion on the Internet. I have no power to change these things.

Oh and I smell a thinly veiled agenda behind your post, but I won't make any accusations yet and instead just silently make a bet with myself if I am right.

Not to be hostile but you should accuse me of having an agenda instead of signaling to everyone else that you think I have an agenda. It's far less passive aggressive.

 Ashiraya wrote:

Some folks over in Saudi Arabia fund terrorism if I recall correctly, for example. I am sure putting a stop to that will help.

...Assuming you have a way to do that.

The King of Saudi Arabia declares it 'political dissent'. Since that's punishable by decapitation, might make an impression. Usually the guys that fund terrorism lack the guts to blow themselves up.

What really needs to happen though is that the religious basis of these attacks needs to be cut out from under it. However, that would require Trump to stop tweeting hate BS at Muslims, so expect a continuation of the current situation.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

Some folks over in Saudi Arabia fund terrorism if I recall correctly, for example. I am sure putting a stop to that will help.

...Assuming you have a way to do that.

The King of Saudi Arabia declares it 'political dissent'. Since that's punishable by decapitation, might make an impression. Usually the guys that fund terrorism lack the guts to blow themselves up.

What really needs to happen though is that the religious basis of these attacks needs to be cut out from under it. However, that would require Trump to stop tweeting hate BS at Muslims, so expect a continuation of the current situation.

You seem to have missed the part where suicide attackers is a ME trait back to the Hashashin. Blaming Trump is incredibly misplaced.