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 Crusaderobr wrote:
Well I personally like the changes to Crisis suits. Im glad they are T5 3W in this new edition. Im glad I can break away from combat and shoot. Im glad I can mount 3 weapons on them. Im glad that markerlights exist so they get 3+ BS re roll 1's. Im glad I can manta strike them 9' away and shoot first. Im glad they come with drones to protect them.

Most of all I am glad people think they are useless. That means I will have a unique army at the gaming sessions/tournaments.

I like the changes. The new rules, fly etc? Love it. It's the cost that does it. If a full squad cost 200, not 300, I'd be delighted to have them. But the mid-level firepower they provide just isn't worth the cost.

The markerlights kinda suck. Not as badly as I first thought, but it's a hard nerf to be sure.

 Hollow wrote:
I think the general consensus is that T'au were OP if anything in 7th edition. I also think it's strange that people who have complained (I'm not saying you have) about the price of playing GW games and how they have seemed to lower points in the past purely to try and increase sales, are complaining now because they can't field dozens of pricey models in their list.

Do you really? You find it strange that something that was undercosted and a powerful asset in a previous edition, and which undoubtedly sold lots of kits on that basis, suddenly found itself less useful while lesser-used parts of the codex became brighter, shinier, and more powerful than ever before (and which almost all T'au players that aren't avid collectors probably have few if any of)?

That seems strange to you?

I think the general consensus is that T'au were OP if anything in 7th edition. I also think it's strange that people who have complained (I'm not saying you have) about the price of playing GW games and how they have seemed to lower points in the past purely to try and increase sales, are complaining now because they can't field dozens of pricey models in their list.

The people at my club- who, mind you, are experienced tournament-goers who regularly travel abroad to participate in international tournaments- pretty much all agreed that Tau was the weakest of the A-tier tournament races, chiefly because they were so lacking in the ability to score points early in the game. I lost a lot of games that had me flooring the enemy army but failing to catch up on points.

How often do you play?

Regularly. It depends, but I try to play at least once every week, and failing that, at least every other week. I am still new to 8th though.

Do you play in tournaments?

I participate in the club tournament every chance I can, as well as the local convention in my city every year. I've only been in the hobby for a year or so, so I've yet to get to the point where I start traveling for tournaments.

Do you play in a highly competitive environment?

That's a solid yes. The most active players in my club- IE the ones who like to travel to big tournaments- pick the hardest lists they can for the sake of winning a game.

Have you played many games of 8th with suits?

Admittedly, not too many. For fairness' sake, I suppose I should try them some more... it's just that literally everything else seems more appealing and reliable.

I've played about 8 proper games of 8th so far with my T'au trying all kinds of stuff and I have found the XV8's to be great. Not OP, but solid choices that allow for lots of variation and different play styles. Which I think is awesome and does a lot for keeping the game fresh and different. I really like that 8th has allowed for factions to be built in lots of different ways. Rather than the point and click lists of 7th.

Well, then you've had a whole different gaming experience than I've had. The actual things you get for them are good- it's the cost that makes me not want anything to do with them. Knock a 100 points off that 300 pts squad, and I'm in.

One of my gaming friends took a Crisis-heavy list to the ATC this past weekend. I have no idea how he did, though. Most of his list was Crisis units (like 4 units or so), a couple of Commanders, and a crapload of Pathfinders and drones (drones came with suits), plus Darkstrider. Weaponwise he took some suits with CIBs, some with Fusions and Flamers, and one unit had CIB's and flamers. He ran this same list in a local tournament the previous weekend, and he did pretty well I think. Crisis can work if used and supported well. They won't work by themselves at all, but then T'au are supposed to be masters of making lots of different supporting elements in an army work together as one, aren't they?

Knock a 100 points off that 300 pts squad, and I'm in.

We have already showed you low cost Crisis squads in this thread earlier... srsly read your own thread... triple flamer and triple plasma are 207/228. 2 Plasma and a CIB is 249 ( im gonna try this combo later ). Little more expensive : 2 CIB ATS is 261, 2 CIB Burstcannon... 267 points.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
One of my gaming friends took a Crisis-heavy list to the ATC this past weekend. I have no idea how he did, though. Most of his list was Crisis units (like 4 units or so), a couple of Commanders, and a crapload of Pathfinders and drones (drones came with suits), plus Darkstrider. Weaponwise he took some suits with CIBs, some with Fusions and Flamers, and one unit had CIB's and flamers. He ran this same list in a local tournament the previous weekend, and he did pretty well I think. Crisis can work if used and supported well. They won't work by themselves at all, but then T'au are supposed to be masters of making lots of different supporting elements in an army work together as one, aren't they?

That's a really interesting idea. I'm not sold on it by any means, but I do like learning from new perspectives.


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 Crusaderobr wrote:

Knock a 100 points off that 300 pts squad, and I'm in.

We have already showed you low cost Crisis squads in this thread earlier... srsly read your own thread... triple flamer and triple plasma are 207/228. 2 Plasma and a CIB is 249 ( im gonna try this combo later ). Little more expensive : 2 CIB ATS is 261, 2 CIB Burstcannon... 267 points.

And I already told you all options are overcosted, especially the really good guns like missile pods and fusion blasters. I stand by that. With their lacking survivability and high points cost, I'd much rather buy a hammerhead for those points.

I think you need to think clearly about which role you wish your suits to occupy. Fusion are expensive and are probably best kept for the more reliable 2+ BS from your commanders.

In a 2000 TAC list I've used a couple of times, I had 2 teams of 4 XV8s with dual plasma, shield generator and 8 Gun Drones and 2 Commanders with 3 Fusion, shield generator and gun drones.

I know that Shield generators don't get much love on the forums but I like my suits having saves and coupled with the drones makes them far more durable. That's 8 XV8's, 16 drones and two commanders for just over 1000 points. Great fun to play.

 Hollow wrote:
I think you need to think clearly about which role you wish your suits to occupy. Fusion are expensive and are probably best kept for the more reliable 2+ BS from your commanders.

In a 2000 TAC list I've used a couple of times, I had 2 teams of 4 XV8s with dual plasma, shield generator and 8 Gun Drones and 2 Commanders with 3 Fusion, shield generator and gun drones.

I know that Shield generators don't get much love on the forums but I like my suits having saves and coupled with the drones makes them far more durable. That's 8 XV8's, 16 drones and two commanders for just over 1000 points. Great fun to play.

That's the thing though... I can't think of any weapons role for the suits, except maybe double/triple plasma, that I can't get from other places more reliably, for equal or lesser cost.

Shield generators now being 8 pts mean they're actually worth taking. That considered I could [i][maybe/i] see myself running a 3-man double plasma squad with shield generators to boost their survivability.

At the end of the day it's the cost. The deep strike ability is great now, but it also means they'll be way out on the battlefield, isolated and easy targets for dedicated firepower with wound multipliers etc. At 43 points base without any upgrades, and the mediocrity of BS and firepower, they just don't seem to be that attractive. Again, I'd love to be proven wrong on this, but right now I'm not seeing it. Then again, I need a good few more games under my belt to make sure.

In my opinion crisis suits arebt worth taking. In a power level game they maybe have a place but they just cost far too many points for little return. As has already been pointed out they may have +1 wound and toughness but when all the guns that were shooting them before now have extra damage, and because their cost has increased massively it means the 1 damage weapons like boltguns etc are still just as cost effective against them as before.
Weapons wise other than flamers they are utterly cost inneffective, and even flamer suita are very expensive for what they put out. Commanders do far better with the higher bs and the additional hardpoint.
Missile pods are incredibly expensive for what they do, and at bs3 totally unreliable.
Plasma rifles, although cheap, are a lot worse than they were last edition since their prime targets last edition (2+ save elite models and light vehicles) have more wounds than before and even 3+ save models have an increased resilience against them
Burst cannons are less cost efficient than warriors, stealth teams, or drones. Even with a targeting system.
Cyclic blasters have same issue as missile pods
Airbursting launchers: lol why even bother. Utterly useless weapon on any platform currently
Fusions: bs4+ is too unreliable for 1 shot high cost weapons

Mv8 is nothing compared to jsj and drones or vespid do the fast movement objective grab way better.

Markerlight nerfs are one of the biggest culprits but the units are still too expensive for what they are.

Bit of a shame, but hopefully the codex sorts it. At least stealth suits have a role now

i would love to see Airburst be changed to a S3 Auto Hit

Bobug wrote:
In my opinion crisis suits arebt worth taking. In a power level game they maybe have a place but they just cost far too many points for little return. As has already been pointed out they may have +1 wound and toughness but when all the guns that were shooting them before now have extra damage, and because their cost has increased massively it means the 1 damage weapons like boltguns etc are still just as cost effective against them as before.
Weapons wise other than flamers they are utterly cost inneffective, and even flamer suita are very expensive for what they put out. Commanders do far better with the higher bs and the additional hardpoint.
Missile pods are incredibly expensive for what they do, and at bs3 totally unreliable.
Plasma rifles, although cheap, are a lot worse than they were last edition since their prime targets last edition (2+ save elite models and light vehicles) have more wounds than before and even 3+ save models have an increased resilience against them
Burst cannons are less cost efficient than warriors, stealth teams, or drones. Even with a targeting system.
Cyclic blasters have same issue as missile pods
Airbursting launchers: lol why even bother. Utterly useless weapon on any platform currently
Fusions: bs4+ is too unreliable for 1 shot high cost weapons

Mv8 is nothing compared to jsj and drones or vespid do the fast movement objective grab way better.

Markerlight nerfs are one of the biggest culprits but the units are still too expensive for what they are.

Bit of a shame, but hopefully the codex sorts it. At least stealth suits have a role now

And that is in essence why I'm not a fan. My opinion of them is not as negative now as it was when I started the thread, as I've been given some decent counterpoints, although I sincerely think they're in need of a price reduction.

Out of curiosity, what application do you see for stealth suits? Same cost, same weapons, same sneaking. Increased survivability, but I don't see them doing more than objective scoring/line breaking etc.

The homing beacon is great when coupled with mass flamers v the likes of Orks or to get the 2D6 pick the highest damage from Fusions.

 Hollow wrote:
The homing beacon is great when coupled with mass flamers v the likes of Orks or to get the 2D6 pick the highest damage from Fusions.

Just had a look at the wording, and it's not clear. Could I theoretically use these to get a commander/XV8 unit into closer range than 9' of an enemy unit?

Yes.

 Hollow wrote:
Yes.

...okay I am suddenly happy about the stealthies I bought a few months back just for fun.

And if matched with a (relatively cheap) team of 3 XV8 triple flamers you are talking about 9D6 S4 auto hits with a guaranteed drop.

 Hollow wrote:
And if matched with a (relatively cheap) team of 3 XV8 triple flamers you are talking about 9D6 S4 auto hits with a guaranteed drop.

Hmm... useful against infantry, but infantry is probably the smallest order of priority- I'm way more focused on taking down vehicles, monsters and elite infantry.

I'd be delighted to try this with a fusion commander though.

Works well with a fusion commander. When it comes to killing Big Bads, Not much does better than 3-5 Hammerheads with Longstrike.

 SevenSeasOfRhye wrote:

Bobug wrote:
In my opinion crisis suits arebt worth taking. In a power level game they maybe have a place but they just cost far too many points for little return. As has already been pointed out they may have +1 wound and toughness but when all the guns that were shooting them before now have extra damage, and because their cost has increased massively it means the 1 damage weapons like boltguns etc are still just as cost effective against them as before.
Weapons wise other than flamers they are utterly cost inneffective, and even flamer suita are very expensive for what they put out. Commanders do far better with the higher bs and the additional hardpoint.
Missile pods are incredibly expensive for what they do, and at bs3 totally unreliable.
Plasma rifles, although cheap, are a lot worse than they were last edition since their prime targets last edition (2+ save elite models and light vehicles) have more wounds than before and even 3+ save models have an increased resilience against them
Burst cannons are less cost efficient than warriors, stealth teams, or drones. Even with a targeting system.
Cyclic blasters have same issue as missile pods
Airbursting launchers: lol why even bother. Utterly useless weapon on any platform currently
Fusions: bs4+ is too unreliable for 1 shot high cost weapons

Mv8 is nothing compared to jsj and drones or vespid do the fast movement objective grab way better.

Markerlight nerfs are one of the biggest culprits but the units are still too expensive for what they are.

Bit of a shame, but hopefully the codex sorts it. At least stealth suits have a role now

And that is in essence why I'm not a fan. My opinion of them is not as negative now as it was when I started the thread, as I've been given some decent counterpoints, although I sincerely think they're in need of a price reduction.

Out of curiosity, what application do you see for stealth suits? Same cost, same weapons, same sneaking. Increased survivability, but I don't see them doing more than objective scoring/line breaking etc.

I like stealth suits because theyre easier to hide from retaliation due to the smaller size and - to hit, less vulnerable to multi damage weapons (since a unit of 3 suits wont get wrecked by a single lascannon) and also pose less of a "shoot me" target for the opponent. I use units of 3 of them with 1 fusion/drone controller shas'vre and 2 burst/targeting system shas'ui to suport my gun drones, giving them the +1bs and popping up to nail a damaged tank or take some wounds off a squad if its safe to do so. Im still not convinced they have much utility as a straight up combat unit but as a support unit stealthsuits have alot going for them

The appeal for me with Crisis suits is the manta strike.

I know stealth suits can deploy 12 away but that's deployment, so your opponent can take advantage of that.

There's an appeal to me of dropping a bunch of crisis suits with 2x burst cannons with ATS and unloading into a target.

But yeah, the suits do seem overcosted. A piranha is only 3 points more than a crisis suit and seems better in almost every way.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
One of my gaming friends took a Crisis-heavy list to the ATC this past weekend. I have no idea how he did, though. Most of his list was Crisis units (like 4 units or so), a couple of Commanders, and a crapload of Pathfinders and drones (drones came with suits), plus Darkstrider. Weaponwise he took some suits with CIBs, some with Fusions and Flamers, and one unit had CIB's and flamers. He ran this same list in a local tournament the previous weekend, and he did pretty well I think. Crisis can work if used and supported well. They won't work by themselves at all, but then T'au are supposed to be masters of making lots of different supporting elements in an army work together as one, aren't they?

That was me. Unfortunately that was more me playing with what detachments were left rather than what I wanted to use. One of our other players used the superheavy detachment, so my first choice list of triple stormsurge, seeker missile spam was out, another player used the supreme command detachment, so commander spam was out, so that pretty much left me with Crisis and pathfinders. Crisis (and pretty much all Tau suits in general for the exception of the Commander) absolutely need a point reduction or natural bs3+ to be really competitive. At the moment their bs4+ is too unreliable for how expensive they are, especially with how easy it is to screen out our 18 inch range weapons from hitting the juicy targets. Crisis are good, but for the life of me other than trying to deepstrike close with a ton of flamers or getting more drones upfield Crisis are flat out worse than an equivalent points worth of Commanders in every other situation.

 obsidianaura wrote:
The appeal for me with Crisis suits is the manta strike.

I know stealth suits can deploy 12 away but that's deployment, so your opponent can take advantage of that.

There's an appeal to me of dropping a bunch of crisis suits with 2x burst cannons with ATS and unloading into a target.

But yeah, the suits do seem overcosted. A piranha is only 3 points more than a crisis suit and seems better in almost every way.

Fair enough point about the use of deployment and such, although the 2+ cover save and the -1 to hit should make the stealthies pretty useful- and that's assuming you can't just hide them from your opponent's sight.

I add up a piranha's total cost (with no fusion blaster) to 71. 45 base+10 for burst cannon +16 for the two gun drones=71 pts. That is indeed less expensive than some battlesuit configurations, although I wouldn't argue for its use as anything but a quick linebreaker unit/objective seizer. For 71 points you could get most of a fire warrior squad- 8 of them, actually. Roughly equivalent firepower, longer range, less exposed. The piranha isn't there to do damage, it's there to score points and maybe pick off some softer targets if possible.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tanniith wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
One of my gaming friends took a Crisis-heavy list to the ATC this past weekend. I have no idea how he did, though. Most of his list was Crisis units (like 4 units or so), a couple of Commanders, and a crapload of Pathfinders and drones (drones came with suits), plus Darkstrider. Weaponwise he took some suits with CIBs, some with Fusions and Flamers, and one unit had CIB's and flamers. He ran this same list in a local tournament the previous weekend, and he did pretty well I think. Crisis can work if used and supported well. They won't work by themselves at all, but then T'au are supposed to be masters of making lots of different supporting elements in an army work together as one, aren't they?

That was me. Unfortunately that was more me playing with what detachments were left rather than what I wanted to use. One of our other players used the superheavy detachment, so my first choice list of triple stormsurge, seeker missile spam was out, another player used the supreme command detachment, so commander spam was out, so that pretty much left me with Crisis and pathfinders. Crisis (and pretty much all Tau suits in general for the exception of the Commander) absolutely need a point reduction or natural bs3+ to be really competitive. At the moment their bs4+ is too unreliable for how expensive they are, especially with how easy it is to screen out our 18 inch range weapons from hitting the juicy targets. Crisis are good, but for the life of me other than trying to deepstrike close with a ton of flamers or getting more drones upfield Crisis are flat out worse than an equivalent points worth of Commanders in every other situation.

Thanks a lot for your input, glad to see somebody with a bit more knowledge weigh in. All our suits are currently overpriced and it's about time somebody said it. In one post, you summarized almost every complaint I had.

On the bright side, there's finally a reason to dust off our hammerheads.