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 SevenSeasOfRhye wrote:

Good vs space marines and basically nothing else? You want a list that could go up against anything. Missile pods are still more versatile- 2 pods and an ATS would give you 4 s7 shots at 36' range with -2 rend... which would be a good, versatile choice if it didn't cost you 98 pts a model.

And when half the armies out there are some flavor of power armor, yeah, plasma should do well in TAC lists. They also should perform well against light vehicles and the lower tier of monstrous creatures. Almost every army has stuff the plasma rifle is a good choice to use against. A squad costs 225, +48 points if you take 6 drones. That fits just fine into a 2000 point TAC list and is almost certain to have a target it's a good choice against.

MPs are overcosted at present other weapon options are more efficient on suits. https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/733068.page

For Crisis Team-specific weapons, Plasma Rifles, particularly in rapid fire, along with Burst Cannons are generally more points efficient as the chart I linked can show.

Pods are indeed overcosted. As for plasma rifles and burst cannons... burst cannons are meant to deal with chaff infantry and I've got loads of other, less cost ineffective options for doing that. Plasma rifles are effective but situational, and therefore should be deemed unreliable, especially with that obnoxious 4+ BS. It really comes down to this: it's not just the pods that are overcosted, literally everything about the suits except maybe the drones are overcosted. They bring nothing that a commander can't do better for half the cost.

Riptides, broadsides, hammerheads, all of them bring the option to spam Smart missiles as a secondary and come with a bigger gun that can dish out hurt on bigger targets as well. All of them are more durable by far than crisis suits. Almost all of them cost less (hammerheads, broadsides) or only slightly more (riptides).

So really, I don't see how anyone could make an argument that the XV8 crisis suits have any application except for a fluff-based, for-fun kind of game. Competitively, they're gak.

Tylendal wrote:
Commanders vs Crisis has no list of pros and cons. Commanders are the superior choice to Crisis in every way... period.

I disagree. There are some advantages to Crisis suits over commanders/other options.

1 - It is easier for your opponent to remove a single model with 6 wounds than it is to remove 3 suits with 3 wounds each. D6 damage weapons will be fired at the commander without drones to protect him by a good player eventually, and he will die. Or you can remove 1 Crisis suit, and still have 2 left.

2 - Better at claiming objectives

3 - Stop complaining about the BS, its getting old. Tau have armywide BS 4+, except for special cases. Get over it and enjoy your 3+ BS re roll 1's just like Space Marines get if you actually bring some markerlights. Just include more in your army, its that simple. Yes I know... gun drones are amazing right now, but if you take Crisis you gotta bring markerlights.

4 - Stop praising the big suits already, we know what the Ghost Keel / Riptide / Stormsurge can do. If they take wounds there BS tanks like a stock market crash and then you will need markerlight support just to hit on 4's ( or 5's for Stormsurge, yuck ) Crisis suits dont have to worry about that, they will always re roll 1's and hit on BS 3+ if you include proper markerlight support in your army.

5 - Flamers/Burst Cannons/Plasma these are the cheap weapons. If you wanna save points and need these type of weapons in your army, they dont cost much, even for 3. Triple Plasma on a deepstriking unit of 3 is only 228 points. 228 points! For 6 shots of Str 6 ap -3 per suit with the manta strike! It will ruin any space marine squads day. 2 or more of these cheap and effective manta striking units will make a Space Marine player sweat more than a 3rd edition Eldar Starcannon list.

6 - They cost 43 points base because they have T5 3 wounds and a 3+ save with fly, mantastrike so they always get to shoot first, and more weapon options than almost any unit in the game. It is a fair point cost imo, yes its a bit, but more than fair imo.

7 - They look cool. Even if they did suck ( which they dont ) you should take them based on looks alone.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SevenSeasOfRhye wrote:

MPs are overcosted at present other weapon options are more efficient on suits. https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/733068.page

For Crisis Team-specific weapons, Plasma Rifles, particularly in rapid fire, along with Burst Cannons are generally more points efficient as the chart I linked can show.

Pods are indeed overcosted. As for plasma rifles... Plasma rifles are effective but situational, and therefore should be deemed unreliable, especially with that obnoxious 4+ BS. Competitively, they're gak.

Plasma Rifle Crisis Squads are very reliable, and cheap at 228 points. If you dont want to use 4+ BS, use more markerlights. You need to add more in your list if you decide to take Crisis teams, 3+ BS with re roll 1's are where its at, and we have fairly easy access to it if you bring enough. However many markerlights you think you need, bring about 6 more. Otherwise dont take Crisis. I agree that missilepods are over costed.

I disagree. There are some advantages to Crisis suits over commanders/other options.

1 - It is easier for your opponent to remove a single model with 6 wounds than it is to remove 3 suits with 3 wounds each. D6 damage weapons will be fired at the commander without drones to protect him by a good player eventually, and he will die. Or you can remove 1 Crisis suit, and still have 2 left.

2 - Better at claiming objectives

3 - Stop complaining about the BS, its getting old. Tau have armywide BS 4+, except for special cases. Get over it and enjoy your 3+ BS re roll 1's just like Space Marines get if you actually bring some markerlights. Just include more in your army, its that simple. Yes I know... gun drones are amazing right now, but if you take Crisis you gotta bring markerlights.

4 - Stop praising the big suits already, we know what the Ghost Keel / Riptide / Stormsurge can do. If they take wounds there BS tanks like a stock market crash and then you will need markerlight support just to hit on 4's ( or 5's for Stormsurge, yuck ) Crisis suits dont have to worry about that, they will always re roll 1's and hit on BS 3+ if you include proper markerlight support in your army.

5 - Flamers/Burst Cannons/Plasma these are the cheap weapons. If you wanna save points and need these type of weapons in your army, they dont cost much, even for 3. Triple Plasma on a deepstriking unit of 3 is only 228 points. 228 points! For 6 shots of Str 6 ap -3 per suit with the manta strike! It will ruin any space marine squads day. 2 or more of these cheap and effective manta striking units will make a Space Marine player sweat more than a 3rd edition Eldar Starcannon list.

6 - They cost 43 points base because they have T5 3 wounds and a 3+ save with fly, mantastrike so they always get to shoot first, and more weapon options than almost any unit in the game. It is a fair point cost imo, yes its a bit, but more than fair imo.

7 - They look cool. Even if they did suck ( which they dont ) you should take them based on looks alone.

The thread has addressed all of these before but OK

1) It's true, your commander won't last long against dedicated firepower. A couple of shield drones are advised, but he's going to be frail. The tradeoff? Murdering several priority targets in turn 1. Almost assuredly. For half the cost of a crummy, unreliable suits squad.

2) And stealth suits are better than crisis suits at claiming objectives, for half the cost.

3) The 4+ BS is a really important point given the unreliability it confers to an overpriced unit. It's the fact that you pay this much for unreliable BS that is the problem, not the BS in itself- that and the markerlight nerf. If they cost 150 pts instead of 300, I'd have no complaints.

4) No we won't stop praising the bigger suits already, because the fact that they do a better job for their points cost and are way more survivable is also an extremely important point.

5) And all of these weapons still makes the unit overpriced. Why would I equip them with burst cannons when fire warriors, gun drones and various SMS deal with chaff way more cost effectively? Why would I equip them with flamers just because, when that still means they're overpriced and only good at receiving a charge, and will still die easily to dedicated firepowers? Why use plasma when a) they're situational and b) you already have good AP going on with stormsurges, riptides, broadsides, hammerheads, not to mention the extra -1 an ATS gives you? They're not cheap. At all. Even when upgraded with cheap weapons.

6) As nice as Fly and 3 wounds at T5 is, it's not nearly enough to justify bringing them for all the above stated reasons. The additional wound and toughness is only barely enough to match the absurd amount of wound multipliers each faction has access to. If an autocannon or lascannon so much as looks at the suits, they go bye-bye. I repeat: everything they do, EVERYTHING they do (with two exceptions that I'll get to in a minute) is done better and cheaper elsewhere.
Commanders hit harder and wound better for half the cost. Stealth suits have map mobility, survivability etc, for half the cost. Hammerheads, stormsurges riptides and broadsides hit harder for their points cost, both against monsters/vehicles and chaff.
The only two actual advantages I can think of that no other unit can account for? Bringing in loads of cheap gun drones, and flamer spam. The former has limited utility, the second even moreso, and neither justify bringing them.

7) OK... I'll give you that one. They DO look cool.

Riptides, broadsides, hammerheads, all of them bring the option to spam Smart missiles as a secondary and come with a bigger gun that can dish out hurt on bigger targets as well. All of them are more durable by far than crisis suits. Almost all of them cost less (hammerheads, broadsides) or only slightly more (riptides).

-Me.

How is a 160 point fusion commander half the cost of a triple flamer or plasma squad? 160 points vs 210/228.

Look, I get it. You wont be taking any Crisis teams till maybe our codex comes out, or for the whole of 8th edition. But some of your claims are wrong, and you continue to over value the big suits imo. 5+ BS after taking wounds stinks. The effectiveness of the big suit goes down after that happens. But what does it matter? Triple Plasma squads manta striking will be taking fire as well, youll probably lose drones and they will explode too.

In 40k everyone is gonna die. EVERYONE!

Oh, thats just great man, now what are we gonna do... game over man... GAME OVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 Crusaderobr wrote:
How is a 160 point fusion commander half the cost of a triple flamer or plasma squad? 160 points vs 210/228.

Look, I get it. You wont be taking any Crisis teams till maybe our codex comes out, or for the whole of 8th edition. But some of your claims are wrong, and you continue to over value the big suits imo. 5+ BS after taking wounds stinks. The effectiveness of the big suit goes down after that happens. But what does it matter? Triple Plasma squads manta striking will be taking fire as well, youll probably lose drones and they will explode too.

In 40k everyone is gonna die. EVERYONE!

Oh, thats just great man, now what are we gonna do... game over man... GAME OVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Half the cost of a suit squad with 2 pods and an ATS, or with fusion blasters. Even if it's not half the cost of a plasma squad, the issue still remains:
1) He's still going to do way more damage, way more reliably
2) He's still noticeably cheaper
3) Plasma rifles are extremely situational, not really effective against anything outside of the SMEQ range

I'm not over-valuing the big suits, no. Personally I think they're a bit overcosted too, but they're at least strong enough to justify their points. A riptide or a broadside won't keel over if you point a lascannon at it, and you literally have to take 8 wounds off a riptide before it loses even 1 BS.

It's not "game over". It's just irritating that there's 0 incentive to take what is easily the most iconic part of the Tau arsenal. I have 14 suits that I'd love to have a reason to use, but won't. Unless they significantly cheapened their base cost, I see no reason to ever use them, not when I can just use more effective units elsewhere.

Str 6 ap -3 is a very versatile weapon. It can be used on anything that isnt horde, or a MC with more than 10 wounds, and even then can help finish one off with a few remaining wounds in a pinch. Its also good for units in cover, especially with markerlight ignore cover. Heck if there were more fusion blaster options id take quad plasma commanders.

 Crusaderobr wrote:
Str 6 ap -3 is a very versatile weapon. It can be used on anything that isnt horde, or a MC with more than 10 wounds, and even then can help finish one off with a few remaining wounds in a pinch. Its also good for units in cover, especially with markerlight ignore cover. Heck if there were more fusion blaster options id take quad plasma commanders.

I'd consider plasma commanders, but crisis suits still wouldn't justify the cost. I can already get a -2 rend with any missile pod with an ATS attached; that extra point of rend doesn't seem to justify the points cost.

 SevenSeasOfRhye wrote:

 Crusaderobr wrote:
Str 6 ap -3 is a very versatile weapon. It can be used on anything that isnt horde, or a MC with more than 10 wounds, and even then can help finish one off with a few remaining wounds in a pinch. Its also good for units in cover, especially with markerlight ignore cover. Heck if there were more fusion blaster options id take quad plasma commanders.

I'd consider plasma commanders, but crisis suits still wouldn't justify the cost. I can already get a -2 rend with any missile pod with an ATS attached; that extra point of rend doesn't seem to justify the points cost.

Agreed. Missile pods should not cost anymore than fusion blasters imo. Sure they have great range, but 24 points? ugh. Missile Broadsides are a better choice imo for the points.

 Crusaderobr wrote:

 SevenSeasOfRhye wrote:

 Crusaderobr wrote:
Str 6 ap -3 is a very versatile weapon. It can be used on anything that isnt horde, or a MC with more than 10 wounds, and even then can help finish one off with a few remaining wounds in a pinch. Its also good for units in cover, especially with markerlight ignore cover. Heck if there were more fusion blaster options id take quad plasma commanders.

I'd consider plasma commanders, but crisis suits still wouldn't justify the cost. I can already get a -2 rend with any missile pod with an ATS attached; that extra point of rend doesn't seem to justify the points cost.

Agreed. Missile pods should not cost anymore than fusion blasters imo. Sure they have great range, but 24 points? ugh. Missile Broadsides are a better choice imo for the points.

Two things: lower the base cost of the suits. Lower the cost of the missile pod. THEN the suits become sorta viable. 100% agree on the broadsides, they're brutal despite the price hike, and their 2+ save and 6 wounds means they can survive combat, jump out, and fire again.

EDIT: They do not fly, my mistake. Still worth it tho.

 SevenSeasOfRhye wrote:
Two things: lower the base cost of the suits. Lower the cost of the missile pod. THEN the suits become sorta viable. 100% agree on the broadsides, they're brutal despite the price hike, and their 2+ save and 6 wounds means they can survive combat, jump out, and fire again.

Broadsides don't Fly, do they?

 John Prins wrote:

 SevenSeasOfRhye wrote:
Two things: lower the base cost of the suits. Lower the cost of the missile pod. THEN the suits become sorta viable. 100% agree on the broadsides, they're brutal despite the price hike, and their 2+ save and 6 wounds means they can survive combat, jump out, and fire again.

Broadsides don't Fly, do they?

Hum. Yeah at a closer look they don't, I got that wrong. Oh well.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: anything the suits can do, other options from the tau arsenal can do better, for a lesser points cost. About 300 points for 12 4+ s7 shots? Spend that on a couple broadsides, or on a riptide with an ion accelerator. They still hit on a 4+, but they'll hit harder and survive better. At this point, investing in crisis suits is a waste if you consider what you get for your points.

What are you talking about? Broadsides are the most overcosted unit in our army currently. 300 points will get you a Broadside and a half, at their cheapest. Sure they're durable, but they're not 200 points a model durable. And their firepower is nowhere near what it should be for their cost. A Missileside on average puts out 4 S7 AP -1 D D3 and 4 S5 AP0 D1 hits a turn. That's laughable, only 2 more hits than a Crisis Team, and 4 of those hits are weaker than MPs. For a 200 point model that is downright pathetic shooting. The HRR is a bit better, but you're still only getting a single lascannon +1 hit a turn, from a 200 point model. T5 W6 2+ is quite durable, but against dedicated anti-armor weapons (the weapons that will be targeting it) it's only marginally more survivable than 2 Crisis Suits.

And don't even get me started on the Riptide. And of all the Riptides to use, you picked the Iontide, arguably the most useless battlesuit we have? For over 350 points, you get a model that's only marginally more survivable than a Valkyrie (or indeed most tanks in the game) who's main gun, a gun that costs 107 freaking points mind you, essentially amounts to a long range 3 shot plasma gun. Read through the profiles. Normal: Heavy 3 S7 AP -3 D1, Overcharge: Heavy D6 S8 AP -3 D D3 (suffer mortal wounds on to hit rolls of 1), and Nova Charge: Heavy D6 S9 AP -3 D3. The only profile that's even worth considering using is the Nova Charge, the one that requires suffering a mortal wound to be able to use. And none of those profiles are worth 107 points.

And none of the above is factoring in the fact that neither of those units will hit on 4+ unless they stand still. Unless they pay for an upgrade to be able to move and shoot (which is pretty much auto take on them meaning you can't give any other buffs to Broadsides and Riptides are down to 1 SS slot) they're about as good at hitting something as a Drone. Once again, nowhere near worth the price of admission.

If you want to complain about a unit and talk about how it's overcosted, it's weak, it's "useless", use examples that actually prove your point. Compare Crisis Suits to Commanders, to Y'Vahras, to XV9s w/ DBBCs. Don't compare it to our most overly nerfed units (especially when Crisis Suits arguably win those comparisons anyway).

 GI_Redshirt wrote:

I've said it before and I'll say it again: anything the suits can do, other options from the tau arsenal can do better, for a lesser points cost. About 300 points for 12 4+ s7 shots? Spend that on a couple broadsides, or on a riptide with an ion accelerator. They still hit on a 4+, but they'll hit harder and survive better. At this point, investing in crisis suits is a waste if you consider what you get for your points.

What are you talking about? Broadsides are the most overcosted unit in our army currently. 300 points will get you a Broadside and a half, at their cheapest. Sure they're durable, but they're not 200 points a model durable. And their firepower is nowhere near what it should be for their cost. A Missileside on average puts out 4 S7 AP -1 D D3 and 4 S5 AP0 D1 hits a turn. That's laughable, only 2 more hits than a Crisis Team, and 4 of those hits are weaker than MPs. For a 200 point model that is downright pathetic shooting. The HRR is a bit better, but you're still only getting a single lascannon +1 hit a turn, from a 200 point model. T5 W6 2+ is quite durable, but against dedicated anti-armor weapons (the weapons that will be targeting it) it's only marginally more survivable than 2 Crisis Suits.

And don't even get me started on the Riptide. And of all the Riptides to use, you picked the Iontide, arguably the most useless battlesuit we have? For over 350 points, you get a model that's only marginally more survivable than a Valkyrie (or indeed most tanks in the game) who's main gun, a gun that costs 107 freaking points mind you, essentially amounts to a long range 3 shot plasma gun. Read through the profiles. Normal: Heavy 3 S7 AP -3 D1, Overcharge: Heavy D6 S8 AP -3 D D3 (suffer mortal wounds on to hit rolls of 1), and Nova Charge: Heavy D6 S9 AP -3 D3. The only profile that's even worth considering using is the Nova Charge, the one that requires suffering a mortal wound to be able to use. And none of those profiles are worth 107 points.

And none of the above is factoring in the fact that neither of those units will hit on 4+ unless they stand still. Unless they pay for an upgrade to be able to move and shoot (which is pretty much auto take on them meaning you can't give any other buffs to Broadsides and Riptides are down to 1 SS slot) they're about as good at hitting something as a Drone. Once again, nowhere near worth the price of admission.

If you want to complain about a unit and talk about how it's overcosted, it's weak, it's "useless", use examples that actually prove your point. Compare Crisis Suits to Commanders, to Y'Vahras, to XV9s w/ DBBCs. Don't compare it to our most overly nerfed units (especially when Crisis Suits arguably win those comparisons anyway).

I mean, I totally agree that broadsides are overcosted, but unlike the XV8 it can actually be relied upon to do some damage and has enough benefits to at least make it worthwhile.

I've given loads of examples why I consider the XV8s to be useless. Over and over. Like, read the freaking thread. I mean...

I'll just quote myself again:

Riptides, broadsides, hammerheads, all of them bring the option to spam Smart missiles as a secondary and come with a bigger gun that can dish out hurt on bigger targets as well. All of them are more durable by far than crisis suits. Almost all of them cost less (hammerheads, broadsides) or only slightly more (riptides).

The XV8s are unreliable, overcosted as feth, and bring nearly no worthwhile benefits. Everything they do can be done better by other units. The broadside, conversely, is at least good at what it's meant to be good at.

And don't even get me started on the Riptide. And of all the Riptides to use, you picked the Iontide, arguably the most useless battlesuit we have?

The hell? I run a standard ass heavy burst-SMS-tide with ATS and target lock. Whether it's overcosted or not I'm not sure yet, but it's about 324 points.

XV8s are by FAR the most overcosted unit we have considering the mediocre firepower and survivability it has. It's a garbage unit. I've already had success with broadsides and riptides, but the suits? Total waste every time.

 SevenSeasOfRhye wrote:

And don't even get me started on the Riptide. And of all the Riptides to use, you picked the Iontide, arguably the most useless battlesuit we have?

The hell? I run a standard ass heavy burst-SMS-tide with ATS and target lock. Whether it's overcosted or not I'm not sure yet, but it's about 324 points.

SevenSeasOfRhye wrote:I've said it before and I'll say it again: anything the suits can do, other options from the tau arsenal can do better, for a lesser points cost. About 300 points for 12 4+ s7 shots? Spend that on a couple broadsides, or on a riptide with an ion accelerator. They still hit on a 4+, but they'll hit harder and survive better. At this point, investing in crisis suits is a waste if you consider what you get for your points.

About 300 points for 12 4+ s7 shots? Spend that on a couple broadsides, or on a riptide with an ion accelerator.

About 300 points for 12 4+ s7 shots? Spend that on a couple broadsides, or on a riptide with an ion accelerator.

About 300 points for 12 4+ s7 shots? Spend that on a couple broadsides, or on a riptide with an ion accelerator.

Spend that on . . . a riptide with an ion accelerator.

I wonder where he could have gotten that from...

Screw me, I don't even remember writing that. Must have been thinking of something else entirely- currently I see no reason to use the ion accelerator (although I haven't playtested it yet).

Sorry about the confusion. For the record: I prefer riptides with standard dakka. I view them more as a distraction carnifex than a source of serious firepower.

Absolutely, and sorry for the snarky post.

With the Bar Exam a week away, my self-control has started to slip.

Distraction Carnifex is about the only role that Riptides can do these days (they're potentially durable enough for it), but their paucity of firepower makes them a poor distraction to any but the still-scared-from-7th players.

Not everyone can afford them, but the Y'vahra is basically a better Distraction Carnifex in every conceivable way (including the fact that it immediately and mercilessly jumps right next to the enemy and starts annihilating entire units of multiwound models in a single phase).

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
Absolutely, and sorry for the snarky post.

With the Bar Exam a week away, my self-control has started to slip.

Distraction Carnifex is about the only role that Riptides can do these days (they're potentially durable enough for it), but their paucity of firepower makes them a poor distraction to any but the still-scared-from-7th players.

Not everyone can afford them, but the Y'vahra is basically a better Distraction Carnifex in every conceivable way (including the fact that it immediately and mercilessly jumps right next to the enemy and starts annihilating entire units of multiwound models in a single phase).

What units would you recommend tho? It seems like a lot of the tau arsenal is now overcosted. So far I can tell that the commanders are murdertastic, longstrike is also cool (better invest in one- not only hits on a 2+, but buffs nearby tanks as well), and the stormsurge seems pretty tough (destroyes do D3 mortal wounds so long as they hit- no to wound roll required). Other than that, everything seems absurdly costly and I'm not sure what's actually good.

(Well, I quite like the infantry now actually- bonding knife is good, fireblades as well, and both pathfinders and fire warriors had a points reduction)

 SevenSeasOfRhye wrote:

What units would you recommend tho? It seems like a lot of the tau arsenal is now overcosted.

For distraction, the Ghostkeel seems to be a good choice.

 John Prins wrote:

 SevenSeasOfRhye wrote:

What units would you recommend tho? It seems like a lot of the tau arsenal is now overcosted.

For distraction, the Ghostkeel seems to be a good choice.

There is a certain appeal to the prospect of 5 fusion blasters.

 GI_Redshirt wrote:
What are you talking about? Broadsides are the most overcosted unit in our army currently. 300 points will get you a Broadside and a half, at their cheapest. Sure they're durable, but they're not 200 points a model durable. And their firepower is nowhere near what it should be for their cost. A Missileside on average puts out 4 S7 AP -1 D D3 and 4 S5 AP0 D1 hits a turn. That's laughable, only 2 more hits than a Crisis Team, and 4 of those hits are weaker than MPs. For a 200 point model that is downright pathetic shooting. The HRR is a bit better, but you're still only getting a single lascannon +1 hit a turn, from a 200 point model. T5 W6 2+ is quite durable, but against dedicated anti-armor weapons (the weapons that will be targeting it) it's only marginally more survivable than 2 Crisis Suits.

Actually, a Broadside gets two smart missile systems and two high-yield missile pods, so it'd be putting out 8 shots each - not 4.

GhostRecon wrote:

 GI_Redshirt wrote:
What are you talking about? Broadsides are the most overcosted unit in our army currently. 300 points will get you a Broadside and a half, at their cheapest. Sure they're durable, but they're not 200 points a model durable. And their firepower is nowhere near what it should be for their cost. A Missileside on average puts out 4 S7 AP -1 D D3 and 4 S5 AP0 D1 hits a turn. That's laughable, only 2 more hits than a Crisis Team, and 4 of those hits are weaker than MPs. For a 200 point model that is downright pathetic shooting. The HRR is a bit better, but you're still only getting a single lascannon +1 hit a turn, from a 200 point model. T5 W6 2+ is quite durable, but against dedicated anti-armor weapons (the weapons that will be targeting it) it's only marginally more survivable than 2 Crisis Suits.

Actually, a Broadside gets two smart missile systems and two high-yield missile pods, so it'd be putting out 8 shots each - not 4.

Look again at the wording, dude's referencing hits not shots.

It does presuppose that the broadside isn't even getting a reroll of 1s, but that would only add about 2/3 of a hit for each type.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SevenSeasOfRhye wrote:

 John Prins wrote:

 SevenSeasOfRhye wrote:

What units would you recommend tho? It seems like a lot of the tau arsenal is now overcosted.

For distraction, the Ghostkeel seems to be a good choice.

There is a certain appeal to the prospect of 5 fusion blasters.

Y'vahra all the way (I even explicitly mentioned him in my post!), because A) it has the firepower to make even a non-moron opponent stand up and take notice - this thing brings the heat that MUST be removed ASAP; B) it has almost equal durability to the Riptide (no universal 3++, but you're never bothering to use any Nova ability except the Nova Weapon Profile choice, so no big deal); and C) By design and tactics, it WILL be in your opponent's grill from Turn 1, and that has an IMMENSE psychological effect (so even better a distraction against good players, and a god-tier distraction against opponents lacking tactical acumen.


Ghostkeel also does well in this role, in that 4 fusion shots or Ion/BC with ATS shots is at least somewhat threatening, but it loses a lot of firepower as it starts taking damage and so functions as less of a distraction once 5 wounds are removed. It has reasonable durability (so it actually can distract for more than a passing moment) and by design it has to operate up close, which is why its still viable, but I'd go Y'vahra all the way.

Y'vahra: it will have your opponent gaking bricks.

Y'vahra all the way (I even explicitly mentioned him in my post!), because A) it has the firepower to make even a non-moron opponent stand up and take notice - this thing brings the heat that MUST be removed ASAP; B) it has almost equal durability to the Riptide (no universal 3++, but you're never bothering to use any Nova ability except the Nova Weapon Profile choice, so no big deal); and C) By design and tactics, it WILL be in your opponent's grill from Turn 1, and that has an IMMENSE psychological effect (so even better a distraction against good players, and a god-tier distraction against opponents lacking tactical acumen.


Ghostkeel also does well in this role, in that 4 fusion shots or Ion/BC with ATS shots is at least somewhat threatening, but it loses a lot of firepower as it starts taking damage and so functions as less of a distraction once 5 wounds are removed. It has reasonable durability (so it actually can distract for more than a passing moment) and by design it has to operate up close, which is why its still viable, but I'd go Y'vahra all the way.

Y'vahra: it will have your opponent gaking bricks.

Just had a look at the forge world store and um... oh wow, that thing costs 77 quid without shipping. Yikes. Not like I couldn't afford it but that's not a little. I'll be sure to keep this in mind. Out of the none-forgeworld stuff though?

Also good luck on your exam.

Yeeeeeeah, the price tag is the biggest issue (I'm pretty sure I mentioned that aspect in my initial post too! ), but the results are glorious.

Out of curiosity, what were the point costs (in reference to 8th) of the old Crisis suits?

I know I'm starting to sound like a broken record here, and again I say, I have just finished my first read through of the Tau index, but the Crisis Suits still don't seem bad to me.

When I compare them to other armies equivalents, their price is on par and they are actually better point costed than Admech and Guard gun platforms and can even deep strike (which is freakin huge, and I personally think people keep forgetting that or are not factoring that in their points cost). Though I do understand the arguments from other units in the codex being more cost efficient.

But I see these things as mobile customizable gun platforms. And in that sense, they seem fine to me. But I am curious how they used to play in 7th that has everyone so up in arms about these things current role.

 Tsol wrote:
Out of curiosity, what were the point costs (in reference to 8th) of the old Crisis suits?

I know I'm starting to sound like a broken record here, and again I say, I have just finished my first read through of the Tau index, but the Crisis Suits still don't seem bad to me.

When I compare them to other armies equivalents, their price is on par and they are actually better point costed than Admech and Guard gun platforms and can even deep strike (which is freakin huge, and I personally think people keep forgetting that or are not factoring that in their points cost). Though I do understand the arguments from other units in the codex being more cost efficient.

But I see these things as mobile customizable gun platforms. And in that sense, they seem fine to me. But I am curious how they used to play in 7th that has everyone so up in arms about these things current role.

Old suits: 22 pts base. Up to 2 weapons and 1 support system max. Pods, fusion blasters, plasma rifles=15 points apiece. Burst cannons 10 pts, flamers 5 pts. Most available support systems, like an EWO=5 pts, putting a single model between 52-57 pts when kitted out. Still weren't cost effective, now when you wanted a riptide wing and stormsurges because they were flat out better, but they were a more viable option than here.

The problem, at its core, is twofold: the cost, and the fact that anything they can do, other models can do better.
A battlesuit squad at minimum will range from 250-300 pts depending on how you kit it out. For that you get an unreliable bunch of 4+ shots, which wouldn't be so bad except markerlights are nerfed something awful.
Secondly, despite being so versatile, any conceivable role they could fill is done better for points cost elsewhere.

Anti-infantry stuff with flamers and burst cannons? Per shot you'd be better off with fire warriors or gun drones; you could buy 3-4 full squads at the cost of 3 fully kitted suits.
Anti-armour with fusion blasters? There's no shortage of that either. Longstrike with his railgun, or a missile broadside, or the almighty stormsurge, or first and foremost the fusion commander (god's gift to the tau) all do that better and then some.
Anti-SMEQ with plasma rifles? Possibly a decent choice, but again, anti-SMEQ is not something you're short of elsewhere. A riptide or broadside with an ATS will do a neat -2 with their weapons, and that's without an overcharge. The option is too specialized to be considered reliable.
Ranged support with missile pods? Aside from being the most overcosted weapon available, you already have better options everywhere.
Mobility for the sake of being anywhere on the map, scoring objectives? Stealth suits give you that at half the cost, and survivability that is at least equal.

The only two conceivably advantages are lots of gun drones and mass flamers, both incredibly specialized and therefore unreliable. When building a list, you should not count on ideal conditions.

The bottom line is the cost. They'd be a perfectly decent choice if they didn't cost so much for what is at the end of the day mediocre shooting and really mediocre survivability (they die if a lascannon so much as looks at them).

If I want heavy firepower, I'm better off with hammerheads or stormsurges. If I want anti-chaff guns, fire warriors. Nothing they bring to the table is interesting or specialized enough to make them an attractive choice for their cost.

- You do know that you can go onto Youtube and watch more than a dozen 8th battle reports featuring T'au and they have been fairing well. (Most of the lists contained in these reports feature XV8's)

- They are already placing in top 3 places in various tournaments.

- Comparing the price of the suits to the previous edition is a complete waste of time IMO. It's a new edition and everything has new rules and point costs.

I've said it several times, but I think T'au have a great list in 8th. Except for a few things that need tidied up and perhaps a few point changes they are a solid, balanced faction.

 Hollow wrote:
- You do know that you can go onto Youtube and watch more than a dozen 8th battle reports featuring T'au and they have been fairing well. (Most of the lists contained in these reports feature XV8's)

- They are already placing in top 3 places in various tournaments.

- Comparing the price of the suits to the previous edition is a complete waste of time IMO. It's a new edition and everything has new rules and point costs.

I've said it several times, but I think T'au have a great list in 8th. Except for a few things that need tidied up and perhaps a few point changes they are a solid, balanced faction.

Mmmyeah but a lot of the batreps do for-fun lists that aren't necessarily the hardest. I like miniwargaming, for example, but they explicitly avoid cheesy stuff. Then there's also the fact that the edition is new and a lot has yet to be figured out. I could be wrong, but theoretically and from my own experience, XV8s seem pointless.

May well be so, but even that considered... XV8s actually had some use in 7th, they were just outperformed by riptides. You could field a lot more of them, and you could use a buffmander for nice things like Ignores Cover and re-roll failed to hit rolls, and markerlights were really helpful as well. You could build a decent deathball with them. In this edition the buffmander is gone, markerlights are nerfed, and yes, the points increase does mean fewer suits available to you, so I don't think a price comparison is without merit.

I'm not following the tournament scene too closely, but I'd love to see how somebody would use these guys effectively at the top level. I WANT my 14 suits to not suck, man.

It's hard to tell. Almost everything had a price increase, our markerlights got nerfed, and our shooting has been limited for both of those reasons. Only 3 things come off as sincere improvement IMHO- fusionmander, longstrike and the infantry buff.

Well I personally like the changes to Crisis suits. Im glad they are T5 3W in this new edition. Im glad I can break away from combat and shoot. Im glad I can mount 3 weapons on them. Im glad that markerlights exist so they get 3+ BS re roll 1's. Im glad I can manta strike them 9' away and shoot first. Im glad they come with drones to protect them.

Most of all I am glad people think they are useless. That means I will have a unique army at the gaming sessions/tournaments.

I think the general consensus is that T'au were OP if anything in 7th edition. I also think it's strange that people who have complained (I'm not saying you have) about the price of playing GW games and how they have seemed to lower points in the past purely to try and increase sales, are complaining now because they can't field dozens of pricey models in their list.

I'm curious SevenSeasofRhye can I ask you a few questions?

How often do you play?
Do you play in tournaments?
Do you play in a highly competitive environment?
Have you played many games of 8th with suits?


I've played about 8 proper games of 8th so far with my T'au trying all kinds of stuff and I have found the XV8's to be great. Not OP, but solid choices that allow for lots of variation and different play styles. Which I think is awesome and does a lot for keeping the game fresh and different. I really like that 8th has allowed for factions to be built in lots of different ways. Rather than the point and click lists of 7th.