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I don't think we're at the end of converting. Not by a long shot. Hobbyists by their very nature will find some way to convert a model in some fashion.

I think we're just seeing a cycle in the hobby right now.

 Hollow wrote:

Interesting tact from a MOD. A guy starts ernest discussions on the board and gets knocked down by you of all people. What do you contribute again?

Presumably hours and hours of personal time, for years, regulating, correcting, moving threads, deleting spambots, mediating, censuring and being on the receiving end of a lot of ire and horrible personal attacks from anonymous posters, all for no pay, on someone else's forum...


...so what do you contribute?

He gives Alph something to do.

I cant really think converting was the original intention of GW in the first place.

all there stuff was pretty much mono pose metal.

conversions has always been about cutting things up re pinning and re sculpting things onto things to make a thing.
it got easier with plastic but still out side of a few cases its always been about putting in the work to make something that is yours and yours only.

 Desubot wrote:
I cant really think converting was the original intention of GW in the first place.

all there stuff was pretty much mono pose metal.

Never the direct intention but the early years, Realm of Chaos etc were rife with conversion. The pages of White Dwarfs of old were packed with Evy Metal converted miniatures pages.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
I cant really think converting was the original intention of GW in the first place.

all there stuff was pretty much mono pose metal.

Never the direct intention but the early years, Realm of Chaos etc were rife with conversion. The pages of White Dwarfs of old were packed with Evy Metal converted miniatures pages.

I really do miss those.

Too many games punish or at least discourage conversions. Other companies make their games around the concept that every model is a character and thus you never need to convert. It just takes some of the fun out of the hobby.

 Breotan wrote:
Too many games punish or at least discourage conversions. Other companies make their games around the concept that every model is a character and thus you never need to convert. It just takes some of the fun out of the hobby.

Does GW out right say no conversions? im pretty sure they dont compared to like PP and i think infinity which are the only two major ones i can think of.

pretty sure GW at the least kinda promotes it like in the new IG book. they just made it a smidgen harder then it used to be but not as metal hard as it used to be from the start.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 Hollow wrote:

Interesting tact from a MOD. A guy starts ernest discussions on the board and gets knocked down by you of all people. What do you contribute again?

Presumably hours and hours of personal time, for years, regulating, correcting, moving threads, deleting spambots, mediating, censuring and being on the receiving end of a lot of ire and horrible personal attacks from anonymous posters, all for no pay, on someone else's forum...


...so what do you contribute?

Ad revenue?

The Primaris marines brook little to no conversion because they only have one or two wargear options in the rules, but they can be used as donors for some pretty cool conversions.

The Plague Marines, however, basically must be converted if you want to equip them in a semi-rational manner without buying more boxes than you need the marines from just to get the bits. I've built a 14 man close combat squad from a set of DI PM and the seven from the new box, and I had to do at least light conversion work on almost every single one of them.

I think part of your perception may just be from aging. When you started, presumably you were a teenager, with more time than money, so you could afford to tweak each figure (because you couldn't afford MORE figures). Now my ability to buy vastly outstrips my ability to paint/build or even play. I'm lucky is something gets a basecoat and a dip. I imagine lots of the others on the board as well as your peer group are in the same position, so it helps create the perception that converting is going away.

Converting is far from dead. Look at 40k Second Edition where you had almost no Chapter specific iconography outside of specialist units, massive scale discrepancies, and many metal minis which required saws to remove components. Most Marine armies looked the same with the exception of their special units and characters.

Now we have a wealth of multi-part plastic components across a huge range of races that can be used to add character to your armies. The Captain for my 30K Blood Angels has components from almost 8 different kits.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
...so what do you contribute?

 Azreal13 wrote:
He gives Alph something to do.

I wrote a version of this, but deleted it before even posting it.

Seems I have greater self control than both'a y'all.

Lanrak wrote:
Maybe its because GW and others are targeting younger less hobby skilled customers?
And so assume simple standard kits are the ones to push.And that those inclined to individualism would paint and convert their forces as they want to?

I don't believe you can think that way if you've actually built some of GW's recent kits. A lot of them are much more complicated to assemble than some of the older multipose kits, especially if you consider the extra effort painting kits that are more highly detailed.

But really, kids are often the most patient when it comes to assembling models. You might occasionally get old farts who like to tinker with plastic models, but I think most old farts are more like me who just want to get the little bastards together so I can actually play a game in the limited free time I have available.

Honestly I often miss the old simple models that were really quick to get out of the box and on to the table compared to the current batch of kits that often have a much bigger time investment than I like.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Lanrak wrote:
Maybe its because GW and others are targeting younger less hobby skilled customers?
And so assume simple standard kits are the ones to push.And that those inclined to individualism would paint and convert their forces as they want to?

I don't believe you can think that way if you've actually built some of GW's recent kits. A lot of them are much more complicated to assemble than some of the older multipose kits, especially if you consider the extra effort painting kits that are more highly detailed.

But really, kids are often the most patient when it comes to assembling models. You might occasionally get old farts who like to tinker with plastic models, but I think most old farts are more like me who just want to get the little bastards together so I can actually play a game in the limited free time I have available.

Honestly I often miss the old simple models that were really quick to get out of the box and on to the table compared to the current batch of kits that often have a much bigger time investment than I like.

Yeah agree with this. I bought a regular plastic Dread the other day and took a picture of the sprues:



I built everything on there in about fifteen minutes. Compare any modern kit, where there'd be hardly any space on those sprues and probably as many moving parts in one sub-assembly as there are in the whole Dread kit.

In terms of the "end of converting" - bollocks. I think we're at the end of converting by necessity, because the option you want doesn't exist anywhere, and imo that's a good thing. Players, and especially new players, being locked out of options because of a lack of knowledge or skill is not a good thing. On the other hand, for people with the skill to convert in ways which are actually interesting - creating new art, instead of just bashing together the lowest-cost option to get something which looks roughly like a conversion beamer or whatever - it's never been easier, with the plethora of bits available and the majority of kits in a much simpler material to work with.

All my 3 40k armies were chosen among other factions that also fascinated me mostly because I could do a lot of conversions and customizations.

Standardization is very bad IMHO. And I'd rather buy multiple different kits just to do some kit bashing than paying a lot of money for a single huge super expensive mono-pose model. Or even monopose units (quite expensive compared to the standard infantry boxes) like the new primaris or deathguard units.


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 Corrode wrote:

In terms of the "end of converting" - bollocks. I think we're at the end of converting by necessity, because the option you want doesn't exist anywhere, and imo that's a good thing. Players, and especially new players, being locked out of options because of a lack of knowledge or skill is not a good thing.

I strongly disagree with that. People have several options even without converting, in fact they have access to the majority of the stuff even without converting or kit bashing. Reducing the options available and so variety is always bad.

I belive this thread has separated into two camps regarding "Is Converting on an uptick?"

-Yes, there are far more plastics and kits to work with.
-No, because there are more monopose. Also, GW has doubled down on "No Model, No Rules."

I gravitate more towards two. It's not a stretch to say GW making kits for every conceivable option is impractical. However, restricting options not in the name of balance, but because "this is the only kit we sell" also has a chilling effect, saying "no, we're trying to be Warmachine."

For example, is there any balance reason for a Primaris Captain to only have a Power Sword (instead of any of the other melee options)? This probably has little to do with the actual cost of adding extra sprue options. This is obviously about balance!

Was there any reason for Dark Eldar to restrict Power Lances to Scourge Solarites, Venom Blades, etc? Or for a Death Watch Captain to be unable to take a Relic Blade unless wearing Terminator Armor? Or for Looted Wagons to be squatted? Clearly those discount Russ pieplates made Orks a meta-dominating force in 7th...

I think the new Astra Militarum codex shows that GW wants to encourage conversions - selling three kits to make a kick ass squad is just good business for them.

I think that the community is getting harsher and harsher on it. There is a streak of player that wants to control thier opponents options via strict conversion rules. I just ran across a tournament organizer that was advocating that any AM list with cadian helmets will have thier list overriden to have the cadian doctrine. If the model isnt 90% of the offical GW model for that regiment, then he is threating to ban the model outright.

I've seen a similar stance on space marines. If too many of your blood angels have bionics, the whole thing will be declared invalid or Iron Hands on the spot.

I've decided to just show up and cross the store off my list if I get invalidated. It's not worth the stress.

Yuck, sounds like a control freak who's got a stick up their butt.

Would love to see that organizer's face if I showed up with my Space Wolves, made nearly entirely from an army built as 13th Company back during the Eye of Terror campaign. He'd likely go friggin' apoplectic at models that were 50% Chaos and Imperial, built 100% correctly as intended right out of the box, lol.

Well, part of it is that gw seems to be moving back to monopose (innovation?) which makes converting harder despite the medium of plastic. Part of it is that gw has cracked down on bitz sellers, making it more likely you can only play around with what's in the box you bought. And part of it is that after the chapterhouse 'incident', gw has cracked down on models that don't exist without specific rules and a model to go with it. Given that gw remains the current industry leader, this is the benchmark by which to compare other things.

I wouldn't come away from this thinking that we're spoiled though, just that things have gotten worse and this is the new normal.

I don't find it as much of a pose problem as it is the sheer amount of cruft on the current models. There are layers and layers of busy nonsense on every mm of a lot of the new GW models*, and most of it just gets in the way.


*Uh, when they actually do new models, which is becoming increasingly rare. But the new death guard really bug me- on several it's hard to even spot the power armor under all the junk.

Voss wrote:
*Uh, when they actually do new models, which is becoming increasingly rare. But the new death guard really bug me- on several it's hard to even spot the power armor under all the junk.

I don't really think Death Guard are the best example. They're supposed to be busy. Chaos models in general aren't really supposed to be clean.

Chaos models have always had a chaotic aesthetic. Where the excessively busy aesthetic bothers me is in other factions that could potentially have very clean and simple models that look awesome. And it's not really a new thing, GW have been doing it for ages. Look at the 5th edition Bretonnian models, some of my favourite models, simple aestetically clean knights and peasants, 6th edition Bretonnian models by comparison were incredibly busy and caked in excessive details.... those models came out almost 14 years ago.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
I belive this thread has separated into two camps regarding "Is Converting on an uptick?"

-Yes, there are far more plastics and kits to work with.
-No, because there are more monopose. Also, GW has doubled down on "No Model, No Rules."

I wouldn't say they're mutually exclusive concepts.

I reckon there's probably less "average" people making crappy looking conversions because GW no longer have rules that require conversions, it's not as easy to kitbash models and the off shelf plastic models look better than the old plastics anyway so there's less reason to convert.

But when it comes to the passionate people who have a vision they have to see through and the skills to follow it through, I think there's more of those people than ever. These are the conversions that actually make you stop and think "wow that looks cool", not the conversions that make you think "they just stuck an arm from kit A on to a model from kit B in order to improvise for a model that doesn't exist".

So yes, we have less conversions than before, but we also have more conversions than before.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Voss wrote:
*Uh, when they actually do new models, which is becoming increasingly rare. But the new death guard really bug me- on several it's hard to even spot the power armor under all the junk.

I don't really think Death Guard are the best example. They're supposed to be busy. Chaos models in general aren't really supposed to be clean.

Chaos models have always had a chaotic aesthetic. Where the excessively busy aesthetic bothers me is in other factions that could potentially have very clean and simple models that look awesome.

Probably why I like the DG & Orks so much. They just cry out to try & do something even more ridiculous to them. It's like Halloween every day for DG/Orks fans.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I don't really think Death Guard are the best example. They're supposed to be busy. Chaos models in general aren't really supposed to be clean.

Chaos models have always had a chaotic aesthetic.

Have they? The old plague marine kit a´was nowhere near as busy as the new plague marines.

 ulgurstasta wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I don't really think Death Guard are the best example. They're supposed to be busy. Chaos models in general aren't really supposed to be clean.

Chaos models have always had a chaotic aesthetic.

Have they? The old plague marine kit a´was nowhere near as busy as the new plague marines.

BOLS did an article on the development of plague marines.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2017/04/40k-retro-28-years-of-plague-marines.html

The new ones are definitely more busy, but the old ones were still pretty busy and have been since rogue trader days. If you were collecting death guard before the current set of models, I highly doubt you were doing it because of the non-existent clean and simple aesthetic

It's always been the chaos way to have a chaotic aesthetic. Personally I've never liked it, going back to the mid 90's I remember seeing my first warhammer chaos warrior army and thinking they looked way too busy.

Breng77 wrote:
TLOS is really to blame for this. When the dimensions of the model come into play as part of the game conversions get frowned upon due to "modeling for advantage"

That said I still see a lot of conversions on the table in GW games (other games not so much because of how kits are designed/models released), I think GWs desire is to move away from it being a need to it being a want. No one should have to convert to field a unit on the table, but if you want to make something different and cool great. Just look at the new IG book with kit bashes in the pictures section for different regiments. It is obvious they are still encouraging it, they just aren't requiring it as they have in the past.

And that's a perfectly fine argument until you acknowledge that the way they are changing things so as not to require converting is to eliminate options - wargear or even whole units - that aren't "supported". If they were removing the need for conversions by providing models for all the rules and options I expect you'd see much less people complaining, but as it stands it is actually a bit annoying that my choices are being limited because some people can't be bothered to learn how to do basic weapon swaps(or, at least, that GW are convinced they can't be bothered).

Further, it's not just the companies. Over the past couple of years I've seen far more frequent accusations than before of "modelling for advantage", of people demanding absolute unyielding WYSIWYG, even people insisting you shouldn't be allowed to use Forge World units if you scratchbuild them rather than buying the "official" model, in one case even that scratchbuild models should be banned entirely which is a sentiment that would have been unthinkable a few years ago. Some have complained of being "shamed" for choosing to use stock models, but frankly the trend I've been seeing has been the exact opposite - a lot of people now take a "guilty until proven innocent" approach to people who convert their armies, they assume right away that you're doing it to gain some advantage under TLoS or to confuse opponents for gameplay benefit, while others seem to have decided that those with the skill necessary to build things themselves are "cheating" by not allowing themselves to be restricted by GW/FW's pricing.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:


I reckon there's probably less "average" people making crappy looking conversions because GW no longer have rules that require conversions, it's not as easy to kitbash models and the off shelf plastic models look better than the old plastics anyway so there's less reason to convert.

But when it comes to the passionate people who have a vision they have to see through and the skills to follow it through, I think there's more of those people than ever. These are the conversions that actually make you stop and think "wow that looks cool", not the conversions that make you think "they just stuck an arm from kit A on to a model from kit B in order to improvise for a model that doesn't exist".

So yes, we have less conversions than before, but we also have more conversions than before.

See that's another thing though - how many people right now who are the latter kind of converter would be if they hadn't been the former type first? I mean, I didn't just decide one day to start sculpting, or to build multiple skirmish warbands with entirely unique models, I started bashing different arms and heads together or giving a model a different type of weapon. Without the initial few years of doing that, if my only option to learn how to convert was to jump right in at the deep end hacking apart elaborate monopose models in ways that pretty much demand at least some basic sculpting skill to make the result look any good, I don't know that I'd have had the confidence to even get started. Basic kitbashing and "requiring" conversions to cover all the possible wargear options were a stepping stone to more advanced techniques, and by curtailing the opportunities to engage in the entry level stuff they've ensured some folk will be too intimidated by the advanced stuff to even try.

Modelling for advantage may be a thing, that's why all my conversions look WYSIWYG and with the same dimensions/base than the original models.

About people that should not have to convert I disagree since GW games are also about the hobby part and not only the tabletop game. By the same logic people should not be required to paint the miniatures either. Painting is even more difficult than scratch building stuff.

And the majority of conversions, those ones needed to represent units (mostly characters) that don't have an official model are pure kitbashing, so easy that even 11 yo kids can do them.

I think that we already are short of options, reducing them even more will be terrible IMHO. I'd like an ork weirdboy with bike or jump packs or even a warboss with jump packs, but also a painboy in megarmor would be cool, and all these options are not in the codex...

 Yodhrin wrote:
....while others seem to have decided that those with the skill necessary to build things themselves are "cheating" by not allowing themselves to be restricted by GW/FW's pricing.

That's hardly a new phenomenon. The one and only time I got hounded for a conversion by someone saying I was just trying to avoid buying the "proper" model was back in the late 90's.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:


I reckon there's probably less "average" people making crappy looking conversions because GW no longer have rules that require conversions, it's not as easy to kitbash models and the off shelf plastic models look better than the old plastics anyway so there's less reason to convert.

But when it comes to the passionate people who have a vision they have to see through and the skills to follow it through, I think there's more of those people than ever. These are the conversions that actually make you stop and think "wow that looks cool", not the conversions that make you think "they just stuck an arm from kit A on to a model from kit B in order to improvise for a model that doesn't exist".

So yes, we have less conversions than before, but we also have more conversions than before.

See that's another thing though - how many people right now who are the latter kind of converter would be if they hadn't been the former type first? I mean, I didn't just decide one day to start sculpting, or to build multiple skirmish warbands with entirely unique models, I started bashing different arms and heads together or giving a model a different type of weapon. Without the initial few years of doing that, if my only option to learn how to convert was to jump right in at the deep end hacking apart elaborate monopose models in ways that pretty much demand at least some basic sculpting skill to make the result look any good, I don't know that I'd have had the confidence to even get started. Basic kitbashing and "requiring" conversions to cover all the possible wargear options were a stepping stone to more advanced techniques, and by curtailing the opportunities to engage in the entry level stuff they've ensured some folk will be too intimidated by the advanced stuff to even try.

I understand what you mean, but I respectfully disagree. I think the passion comes first and the skill follows. Especially with the internet these days people can be both inspired by and learn from other peoples' work.

Even GW has a bunch of videos up on conversions and kit bashes.

 ChargerIIC wrote:
I think the new Astra Militarum codex shows that GW wants to encourage conversions - selling three kits to make a kick ass squad is just good business for them.

I think that the community is getting harsher and harsher on it. There is a streak of player that wants to control thier opponents options via strict conversion rules. I just ran across a tournament organizer that was advocating that any AM list with cadian helmets will have thier list overriden to have the cadian doctrine. If the model isnt 90% of the offical GW model for that regiment, then he is threating to ban the model outright.

I've seen a similar stance on space marines. If too many of your blood angels have bionics, the whole thing will be declared invalid or Iron Hands on the spot.

I've decided to just show up and cross the store off my list if I get invalidated. It's not worth the stress.

Wow. Tournament Organizers like that can kill the scene, or at least twist it to what their own narrow point of view thinks is acceptable. If its clear to the opponent what each model is then its good to go. I don't like people abusing their power to push an agenda.

As for conversions, I only do it on occasion. I started back in 2nd Ed with the box set, so I was used to seeing two monopose armies on the field. I still have those Goffs and Space Marines! The new kits with fixed poses still look different when composed as an army. I really liked the plastic Guardmen boxes since you could have plenty of variety without needing too much in the way of skill of specialized hobby equipment. Hopefully that stays true.

I recently made a Librarian on a Bike by using bolt cutters on my metal Codificer. Then the option disappeared from the codex a month later. My Codicifer still glares at me from the cabinet with "Why?" on his face.

I think that as something goes from a niche market, to the broader appeal that GW has been experiencing, they can bring more people into the "game" by simplifying the hobby aspect. And as someone who got into the game because of the lore & the hobby, the game is just slowly dieing to me.

It reminds me of what happened to LEGO. It use to be an imaginative toy where you created the world. But then everything became a specialized piece and themed set.

There are a lot of signs the GW has changed over the years, but I think the nail in the conversion coffin was the stupid Alpha marines. For a long time the gold standard for conversion work in difficulty and impressiveness was true-scale marines. The fact that GW saw that and decided to kill off that trend with a profit idea is what signaled the end of conversions in my mind (people will always still shoot with film cameras, but the prevalence of these individuals diminishes into an obscurity as the industry decides which route is most profitable). I wouldn't be surprised if 80% of my army is unplayable by modern standards because it's so old.

Grav-tanks? Give me a break, I'll go play with my deodorant tank in the corner. TBH I'm surprised we've yet to see pre-painted models yet. But I think that so many painting companies sprang up in the last 10 years is also a good indicator of where the "hobby" has been going.

People posting about how difficult or annoying it is to assemble or paint a model just don't get the point and origins of the hobby, which again means I've just aged myself out of the game. And that's fine too. I get it, GW wants to make cash, the best way to do that is to sell out to everyone, not just your original niche customer base.