Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

First, they should ignore cover, you cant hide from fire. Second, flamers should be 2D3 not 1D6. Heavy flamers should have 12" range and 3D3. Third, they need a 30% point reduction.

 Nerak wrote:
Are flamers underpowered this edition? Should they be given 2d6 wounds? Has,anyone found a good use for them? It feels like a waste to use up your special weapon slots for a charge counter that you might not use.

Edit: got the phone working again. This was about a page long before but whatever.

Obviously you have not played a tournament quality sisters list... go play one, flamers in that volume are not underpowered.

Auto hitting weapons are BS. Yes i have a pair of hemlocks, it is BS i am enjoying the BS they bring to my list. But it needs to be changed... it needs to be changed to something like the dark reapers always hitting on 2s or 3s regardless of modifers. But i also think auto hitting weapons should not be allowed in overwatch as they currently are, they need to be toned down.

i would like to see something more like
Flamer rng8 assult6 pow4 ap0 d1 - during the shooting phase this weapon hits on a 2+ regardless of any modifiers. +3 in over watch.

Removes the auto hitting nonsense, give it the infantry mulching profile without the random derp 1 and rewards aggressive play.

Are any tournament quality sisters lists winning any major tournaments? Because I haven't heard of any, let alone ones that spam flamers. Storm bolters are so far superior to flamers that it's actually depressing.

A normal flamer, as it is right now, should cost the same as a stormbolter. For 9 points i can get 4 stormbolters, thats 16 (!) shots (10,7 hits at BS3) at 12", against 3,5 autohits at 8" for the flamer. The heavy flamer, as it is right now, should cost 4, not 17.

Some flamers have the 10 inch rule and can even deepstrike!

p5freak wrote:
First, they should ignore cover, you cant hide from fire.

if you are hugging a wall that is taller then your profile, and a flamer aims at the top of the wall, the flames wont magicly take a 90* down ark and hit you.
it might hit the guys that are hiding 2m behind the wall but not thouse that are near the wall. sadly rules for that is too complex for 8th, so it is better that flamers do not ingore cover.

point is, a tradition flame IS blocked by cover.
a melta on the other hand, that ignores cover as it melt true moust material.

The same can be said for a shrapnel cannon, shrapnel can't go everywhere. Still, it ignores cover. Burning liquid can creep in the tiniest gaps, shrapnel cant.

There would need to be different types of cover for both to works. Shrouding(flamer ignores cover) and blocking(flamer doesn't). Even then that's not really accurate as simply hiding behind small block isn't exactly much of help under inferno.

The problem with basing the damage on the size of the unit that you're shooting at is that it takes time and destroys the flow of the game. Sure the first time a unit takes a hit the player knows how many models he has in his unit but after a bit of shooting/moving/melee you'd have to stop each time you shoot a flamer you have to stop and start counting models.

p5freak wrote:First, they should ignore cover, you cant hide from fire.

I can't speak for the Grim Darkness of the Far Future, but against modern day flamethrowers you totally can. Even so much as a sheet of plywood will protect you from the flame - yes, it will catch fire, but the flame itself has basically no inertia.

That said, that's more LOS restriction than a cover based one, as gaps and viewing ports and whatnot are what makes cover and not just a brick wall.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:The problem with basing the damage on the size of the unit that you're shooting at is that it takes time and destroys the flow of the game. Sure the first time a unit takes a hit the player knows how many models he has in his unit but after a bit of shooting/moving/melee you'd have to stop each time you shoot a flamer you have to stop and start counting models.

This isn't aimed at you, so please don't take it personally, but I'm astounded at how many comments I see about not wanting to do simple counting or even dice rolling in a game of numbers and dice.

I used to play FAD - it involved division to figure out how many guys you hit. I think it would burn some brains out, here.

M.

Issue is, Flamers work better against Elites than Hordes.

Don't believe me?

7/2 (3.5) hits against GEQs, 7/3 wounds, 14/9 dead.6.22 points.

7/2 hits against MEQs, 7/4 wounds, 7/12 dead. 7.58 points.

7/2 hits against a Daemon Prince, 7/6 wounds, 7/18 unsaved. 8.75 points.

If they had a scaling based on squad size, like has been suggested, that'd make them a lot better against Hordes.

Personally, a suggestion I've seen before and liked is that Flamers are, say, Assault 8, with a special rule saying they get a number of auto hits up to their shot number based on the number of models in range. (Possibly with a special rule saying Vehicles and Monsters count for 3.) So, against a 5-man MEQ squad, you get 5 hits. 30-man Conscript squad, you get 8. Daemon Prince, you get 3.

Flamers are trash. Use something else.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Issue is, Flamers work better against Elites than Hordes.

Don't believe me?

7/2 (3.5) hits against GEQs, 7/3 wounds, 14/9 dead.6.22 points.

7/2 hits against MEQs, 7/4 wounds, 7/12 dead. 7.58 points.

7/2 hits against a Daemon Prince, 7/6 wounds, 7/18 unsaved. 8.75 points.

If they had a scaling based on squad size, like has been suggested, that'd make them a lot better against Hordes.

Personally, a suggestion I've seen before and liked is that Flamers are, say, Assault 8, with a special rule saying they get a number of auto hits up to their shot number based on the number of models in range. (Possibly with a special rule saying Vehicles and Monsters count for 3.) So, against a 5-man MEQ squad, you get 5 hits. 30-man Conscript squad, you get 8. Daemon Prince, you get 3.

I kinda like this idea, but could simplify it by making it D3 auto-hits +1 for each additional model in the enemy target and in range. That way you get D3 auto hits against single model targets, or potential a ton of hits if you are right up next to a large blob (exactly like prior editions).
I feel like as long as you cap the number of hits to the number of models in the target unit that are actually in range, than it adds back the tactic of "not bunching up". I kinda miss that
The price it about the same as a Plasma gun

-

Flamers rules seems completely broken. Auto-hit flyers but can't shoot at the guy charging you because they started their charge 9" away: STUPID.

The way things are going I can see AM getting access to cheap flamers that rock 2d6 attacks.

 Primark G wrote:
The way things are going I can see AM getting access to cheap flamers that rock 2d6 attacks.

well for one, flamers should be an anti horde unit weapon. it is currently not.

however it will never be buffed to flat out 2d6 as that is too strong for units that has 10 or less models.
dmg scaling system based on how many models there is in the enemy unit is the best overall solution.

From the Guard perspective at 7 points I think normal flamers are balanced.

Heavy flamers at 17 points for 1 more strength and AP when they lose Assault for Heavy certainly aren't balanced and obviously they only considered use on vehicles not their use in Command Squads.

Flamers are excellent charge deterrent.

Each model in the targeted unit is hit on a 4+? I dunno how that would scale, and would make it bad vs singular targets again, which is something I don't entirely want.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Primark G wrote:
Flamers are excellent charge deterrent.

No they're not once you've learned the math behind them.

 FrozenDwarf wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
The way things are going I can see AM getting access to cheap flamers that rock 2d6 attacks.

well for one, flamers should be an anti horde unit weapon. it is currently not.

however it will never be buffed to flat out 2d6 as that is too strong for units that has 10 or less models.
dmg scaling system based on how many models there is in the enemy unit is the best overall solution.

Why should a flamer scale with the number of models in a unit ? Is there a sensor who releases more or less burning stuff? That's nonsense. If a unit has less models they get the same amount of hits as a unit with more models.

p5freak wrote:

 FrozenDwarf wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
The way things are going I can see AM getting access to cheap flamers that rock 2d6 attacks.

well for one, flamers should be an anti horde unit weapon. it is currently not.

however it will never be buffed to flat out 2d6 as that is too strong for units that has 10 or less models.
dmg scaling system based on how many models there is in the enemy unit is the best overall solution.

Why should a flamer scale with the number of models in a unit ? Is there a sensor who releases more or less burning stuff? That's nonsense. If a unit has less models they get the same amount of hits as a unit with more models.

Because if you shot a flamer agaisnt one guy, he is gonna be hit one time, but if you shot a flamer to a group of 20 people, they will all be hit? Is pretty easy to understand really.

A grenade is used agaisn't a group of people and not an individual for a reason.

 Galas wrote:

p5freak wrote:

 FrozenDwarf wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
The way things are going I can see AM getting access to cheap flamers that rock 2d6 attacks.

well for one, flamers should be an anti horde unit weapon. it is currently not.

however it will never be buffed to flat out 2d6 as that is too strong for units that has 10 or less models.
dmg scaling system based on how many models there is in the enemy unit is the best overall solution.

Why should a flamer scale with the number of models in a unit ? Is there a sensor who releases more or less burning stuff? That's nonsense. If a unit has less models they get the same amount of hits as a unit with more models.

Because if you shot a flamer agaisnt one guy, he is gonna be hit one time, but if you shot a flamer to a group of 20 people, they will all be hit? Is pretty easy to understand really.

A grenade is used agaisn't a group of people and not an individual for a reason.

No, one model gets hits 1D6 times, the same 1D6 that hits the 20 model unit. The one model gets hit harder, because the damage is not getting split. Its all concentrated in one large hit.
And btw grenades have two modes, flames don't.

I was talking about "real life". If you hit one guy with a flamer, the flames doesn't "concentrate" on him. The amount of flames is the same. So If you are using it agaisn't just one guy, you are wasting a ton of flames that could have impacted a bunch of other dudes if they where all together.

Thats how "blast" weapons work.

Thats the problem with Flamers. They rules don't make any kind of sense to how flamers should be used. The only proper use is in the Cities of Death advanced rules where you receive the max amount of hits if you use it agaisn't a unit that has been two turns in cover for the +2 cover bonus.

I suppose if it's one guy, you're basting him with flames for a longer segment of time (rather than just a sweep) thus increasing the chance of doing a lot of burning in a hurry (vs just catching his arm, or something).

M.

 Infantryman wrote:
I suppose if it's one guy, you're basting him with flames for a longer segment of time (rather than just a sweep) thus increasing the chance of doing a lot of burning in a hurry (vs just catching his arm, or something).

M.

This is how flamers work. They spill out a certain amount of flaming liquid. If one gets exposed for 5 seconds he will get more burned than five who are each exposed for one second.

Flamers are trash on Marines. My Tactical Squads with Hand Flamer/Flamer haven't been used since my first two ganes of 8th with my Blood Angels. That was when I also learned that melee is a joke too.

I see no reason to ever use a Flamer over a Plasma or Melta Gun. I get far more consistent value out of those two versus any other special weapon. They are also a far better charge deterrent than a Flamer as well, since you are potentially eating a rapid fire Plasma or Melta at 12" to the face. Way scarier than D6 S4 no AP shots if you charge within 8"

If there's one guy, I'll hold the stream steady on him. If there's a big mob, I'll play it over the whole lot. Seems straightforward.

Personally not seeing the issue.

A flame thrower should be an offensive weapon, its something you use as you yourself pull up into assault range to crispy fry a few of the enemy before charging in.

Its not really a defensive weapon except that it keeps your opponent outside an easy charge distance if they wish to avoid it

leopard wrote:
Personally not seeing the issue.

A flame thrower should be an offensive weapon, its something you use as you yourself pull up into assault range to crispy fry a few of the enemy before charging in.

Its not really a defensive weapon except that it keeps your opponent outside an easy charge distance if they wish to avoid it

The problem is that they're more of an offensive penalty than a weapon.

p5freak wrote:

 Infantryman wrote:
I suppose if it's one guy, you're basting him with flames for a longer segment of time (rather than just a sweep) thus increasing the chance of doing a lot of burning in a hurry (vs just catching his arm, or something).

M.

This is how flamers work. They spill out a certain amount of flaming liquid. If one gets exposed for 5 seconds he will get more burned than five who are each exposed for one second.

They will actually spew out ignited napalm, which is a combination of gasoline and gelling agent. If you're hit by a flamethrower, you are splashed with a sticky flaming gel that will continue to inflict thermal damage as long as it isn't extinguished or removed somehow. Flamers are nasty weapons.