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BrianDavion wrote:

 xeen wrote:
They really should have made the “ chapter tactic” “TS characters get extra six inch psyker ranger and TS non character infantry and hellbrute get +1 invul and if no invul then 5++”. That would help rubrics. Might make gors too good though.

seems a m ite bit much given it'd be better straight up then Custodes.

Custodes should never have Chapter Tactics. They are lone fighting gladiators. They don't fight in squads, or even have chapter tactics. They are meant to be loners.

Garbage, doesn't do anything that can't be done better by other books in the same faction.

Playing TS is basically an aesthetic choice.

Also, Magnus is utter garbage now since (among other things like his garbage warlord trait) unlike DG, TS was not provided with any way to protect their primarch at all.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
Garbage, doesn't do anything that can't be done better by other books in the same faction.

I'd like to see you make a psyker army as effective as TS can.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I'd like to see you make a psyker army as effective as TS can.

You're right, they can make a better psyker army. It's the 40k equivalent of the US Paralympics team, everyone feels really good that they get to go and compete, just not in the same stadium as the rest of the athletes.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
Garbage, doesn't do anything that can't be done better by other books in the same faction.

Playing TS is basically an aesthetic choice.

Also, Magnus is utter garbage now since (among other things like his garbage warlord trait) unlike DG, TS was not provided with any way to protect their primarch at all.

Interesting thought process given the access to things like Tzeentch Princes (4++ save, access to double powers, same cost as other princes), a solid choice in Tzaangors (similar in impact to a bloodletter bomb just with access to different buffs), and Chaos's first CP farming item. But maybe you're talking about the book from the lens of a pure codex?

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I'd like to see you make a psyker army as effective as TS can.

You're right, they can make a better psyker army. It's the 40k equivalent of the US Paralympics team, everyone feels really good that they get to go and compete, just not in the same stadium as the rest of the athletes.

So it is or isn't it an aesthetic choice? I don't care what language you want to dress it in to make yourself sound cool.

 Farseer_V2 wrote:
Interesting thought process given the access to things like Tzeentch Princes (4++ save, access to double powers, same cost as other princes)

I can get a 4+ save DP in the Daemons codex also. The double powers is nice, but not worth a detachment. Also, all the TS powers only work on TS units, but will not work with anything from the Daemons or CSM codices. But Daemons powers can be cast on Daemonic troops, Daemon auras affect Daemonic troops, you see where I'm going here. You're taking a synergy hit for that extra power.

 Farseer_V2 wrote:
a solid choice in Tzaangors (similar in impact to a bloodletter bomb just with access to different buffs)

You mean effectively the same choice I have in several other codices. CSM and Daemons just have a better variety of bombs, better delivery methods, and quite frankly, better troops to deliver.

 Farseer_V2 wrote:
and Chaos's first CP farming item. But maybe you're talking about the book from the lens of a pure codex?

Believe me, I looked at that artifact and tried to rationalize a reason to include a TS detachment. It's just not worth the loss of a more tactically flexible CSM or Daemons detachment.

But hey, maybe they'll rock a bunch of tournaments and totally prove me wrong, that would be exciting.

4++ save prince in a demons detachment is valid but no access to double powers so its still not as strong a prince, not especially with access to the helm. Also regarding access to powers - you still get access to the demonic powers so there's nothing stopping you from going supreme command for 3 princes or maybe 2 and an Ahriman so you can get the helm, strong access (and he effectively becomes a better Demons prince). I don't disagree that as a whole the book has some very specific tools that are worth taking but I don't agree that it isn't a viable soup ingredient.

Also - and I know you've engaged in the Tzaangor debate in other threads so I won't engage it here but I think the Tzaangor bomb with just the minimal support of time warp is a really effective unit, one that you can reasonably work into a detachment for access to the good princes, and not lose CP to access. I do think you'll see some Chaos Soup lists that run TSons at or near top tables because they do bring some interesting and useful tools - perhaps they're not blow your mind unique but lets be honest there is a ton of overlap in chaos soup as whole (that's why it all works so well).

 Farseer_V2 wrote:
4++ save prince in a demons detachment is valid but no access to double powers so its still not as strong a prince, not especially with access to the helm. Also regarding access to powers - you still get access to the demonic powers so there's nothing stopping you from going supreme command for 3 princes or maybe 2 and an Ahriman so you can get the helm, strong access (and he effectively becomes a better Demons prince). I don't disagree that as a whole the book has some very specific tools that are worth taking but I don't agree that it isn't a viable soup ingredient.

Also - and I know you've engaged in the Tzaangor debate in other threads so I won't engage it here but I think the Tzaangor bomb with just the minimal support of time warp is a really effective unit, one that you can reasonably work into a detachment for access to the good princes, and not lose CP to access. I do think you'll see some Chaos Soup lists that run TSons at or near top tables because they do bring some interesting and useful tools - perhaps they're not blow your mind unique but lets be honest there is a ton of overlap in chaos soup as whole (that's why it all works so well).

*sigh* My browser or the base's firewall ate my previous response, which ultimately was just a reiteration of points I've made previously.

- Not bringing enough to the table to justify a detachment.
- Lazy uninspired codex.
- We'll agree to disagree.
- Happy to be wrong if we see them at the top tables.

the_scotsman wrote:
1) 20, pretty much every game, and either 5 or 10 SOTs. Sorcerors, Ahriman, Rubrics, SOTs, and the rhinos they ride in make up about 1250-1500 of my typical 2k lists.

So I am assuming 1 to 2 units of Rubrics, and 1 SOT unit.

the_scotsman wrote:
2) varies depending on army setup, as it should. Firestorm is a pretty common one I tend to like, because it introduces a high-percentile "critical success" to my AS alongside the low-percentile critical failure of a perils. Temporal Manipulation is also common on rubric AS, and I almost always run Weaver on SOTs.

Thats fine totally understandable. Although im wondering what you do when Weaver dosen't go off.

the_scotsman wrote:
3) Not sure what you mean by "Augments".

Things like CF or bringing Magnus, but it dosen't matter.

the_scotsman wrote:
4) risk/benefit analysis. Like you should do with every unit in 40k, pretty much at all times. Do I have a single-wound ahriman and three other squads within 6" of an AS? I'll hold off on casting him for the turn, and try to position him better in my next turn. There's little reason for me to position an AS that badly. Usually if he's 6" away from anything, he's next to his rhino, and if he pops the rhino for a couple of mortals on a perils, that's really the least of my worries.

Okay. Here is the problem. If you bring a Regular Sorc, you don't have to worry about that problem. In fact your in a better position because now you can prevent Perils on units that really need it and when you choose to do so can eat a perils to get a high WC ability off when needed. Then simply heal the wounds either next turn or this turn if you haven't casted TM yet. That one Sorc can replace 2 units of Rubrics, which means you can bring a 15 man Tzaangor squad and 1 Sorc and pay less points than 2 Rubric squads for them.

Couple other notes:

The AS is not 100% setup for melee. He is a psyker, with the same equipment of pretty much every single psyker in the game. Would you say that a primaris psyker was 100% setup for melee? Most of the aspiring sorceror's spells have the exact same range of the rest of his squad, and if you're not getting any use out of him until turn 3, you might be doing something wrong. Maybe you took firestorm on them in the vs gunline matchup and the only thing you can hit at 24" is a guard screen - maybe don't do that. Take a defensive buff and cast it on something that's likely to be targeted.

The AS has an 8 point melee weapon and a 12" pistol that account for 1/3 his points cost. His Psychic ability hamstrings your army becuase instead of using your rerolls to make sure you important psykers don't perils your using them to make sure your AS dosen't blow up and kill a bunch of your own models. The majority of the points you spend on him are geard towards CC. The unit is a base cost of 107. 80 points don't want to be in CC and 27 points do. Its a situation where you end up screwed either way. Either most of 27 points goes to waste or most of 80+ points goes to waste. Its the same problem the unit had last Edition only slightly better because now the AP works all the time.

the_scotsman wrote:
The only role that tzaangors tresspass on with respect to rubrics is the new way to run them added in the codex: Deep striking them into the enemy lines. In that instance, yes, Tzaangors 100% outperform Rubrics because the deep strike rubric bomb is honestly not very good, and by contrast it is the best way to run tzaangors. in the "standing out in the open at the beginning of the game" contest, tzaangors also win, but neither is actually good at that role, and you may as well say Tzaangors are getting shoved out by Cultists/Brimstones. Compare Tzaangors and Rubrics as rhino-borne mechanized infantry, and there's no comparison. The tzaangors take more turns to start being effective, require three times as many points to be spent on rhinos, and compare unfavorably to nearly every other melee line infantry out there once they do get out of their transports.

They're just two completely different units that want to do different things. You're going to get the exact same kind of comparison if you take, for example, IG infantry squads in Chimeras and compare them to Tactical Marines in rhinos. The current 8th ed meta doesn't favor mechanized infantry, but even so, the tactical marines are better at being mechanized infantry than the guardsmen are. Guardsmen aren't shoving tactical marines out of their role as mechanized infantry, they're being taken in soup lists and used for a completely different purpose, as a chaff screen.

They have the exact same stat line in everything except AP for thier weapons and range on thier weapons. That is it they have access to more auras, and better buffs. In the end the only thing Rubrics can do better then Tzaangors is be a Distraction Carnifax. That's it.

The simple fact is we have a bunch of glass cannon units which dish out a bunch of damage but can't really take a hit, and 2 Highly durable units that only do noticible damage when they have a spell, an Aura, and a CP spent on them.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:


Okay. Here is the problem. If you bring a Regular Sorc, you don't have to worry about that problem. In fact your in a better position because now you can prevent Perils on units that really need it and when you choose to do so can eat a perils to get a high WC ability off when needed. Then simply heal the wounds either next turn or this turn if you haven't casted TM yet. That one Sorc can replace 2 units of Rubrics, which means you can bring a 15 man Tzaangor squad and 1 Sorc and pay less points than 2 Rubric squads for them.

Exalted w/ +1 to cast; 121
2 units of 5 Rubric; 214

vs

TA sorcerer w/ familiar; 138
30 Tzaangors; 220

=====

I cast Death Hex using CF at +3. There is almost no chance of failure and very little chance you could stop me. Throw on a smite for a couple dead.

If you're within 12" (e.g. you landed and killed my screen). And we'll say you somehow got both prescience and glamour off. I drop VotLW and kill 7. If my smite went through that's 9. I charge you with everything and grab another 6.5 for a total of 15 or so.

30 attacks back kills 4 rubrics and it's not likely your sorc is in a position to counter charge, but even if he does it's another 1.3. You'd have to put that all on one squad, because otherwise you're not getting a morale test from me. You on the other hand will likely lose another 5.

So in this hypothetical scenario I've lost 107 points. You have lost 140. And I didn't even cast with my AS, which would likely be firestorm and smite for another 2 or 3 (and you're all out of denies at this point where I have a deny for every single thing you cast). Now you could certainly bring other things to support the Tzaangors, but that means I can bring more, too, but defensively you have nothing else past glamour.

Realistically though I would have put way more bullets into that unit meaning i'd likely lose a couple rubrics (if I still had to charge) and you'd lose the whole unit.

Assuming you have first round. Now what if it's reversed?

So basically you're saying 'it's good to go first'?

Run it again with the Tzaangor herd going first and there'd be nothing left but dust in the breeze.

Edit: Ninja'd by a nintura!

grouchoben wrote:
So basically you're saying 'it's good to go first'?

Run it again with the Tzaangor herd going first and there'd be nothing left but dust in the breeze.

Edit: Ninja'd by a nintura!

Thats why screens exist. It just so happens we have access to a cheap one.

Ah so now it's not just the four units in your example?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'll do it for you if you want -

Assuming the charge is made, with warptime, tzaangor +1 and CP reroll all options. Also assuming *zero* buffs from the accompanying Termi Sorcerer:

a) 1 Tzaangor dies to overwatch.
b) Tzaangors activate VoTLW and 8.7 Rubrics die
c) Tzaangor player has option to activate Cycle of Hatred and wipe the remaining Rubric and the exalted, or save the points and watch the Rubric 'attack' back.

 nintura wrote:

Zodd1888 wrote:
Just one thing... Why doesn't Icon of Flane do something cool? It could have buffed the flamers or something.

Bah!

Ie. Re-roll 1's to wound.

+1 Inch to range of flamers.

That would do nothing cause you don't deepstrike within 9" range. Now, if it was +1.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000..1, it'd be fine.

grouchoben wrote:
Ah so now it's not just the four units in your example?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'll do it for you if you want -

Assuming the charge is made, with warptime, tzaangor +1 and CP reroll all options. Also assuming *zero* buffs from the accompanying Termi Sorcerer:

a) 1 Tzaangor dies to overwatch.
b) Tzaangors activate VoTLW and 8.7 Rubrics die
c) Tzaangor player has option to activate Cycle of Hatred and wipe the remaining Rubric and the exalted, or save the points and watch the Rubric 'attack' back.

All fine and dandy and if you reread my post carefully I state how it's stupid to compare these units in a vacuum. You won't EVER be deploying tzaangors within 9" of my rubrics. In fact you will be 13" away and unable to declare a charge UNLESS you get warptime off and ONLY if I don't deny it and you succeed at casting it. And even then my only one of my units will be within your 3" consolidate, which will pull you away from the center.

So your plan has tons of conditionals to POSSIBLY kill a 40 point cultist unit (warptime and/or successful charge) and possibly 107 of rubrics (warptime required). Mine has very little chance of failure.

I'm not sure why you guys think people are just going to lay their units out for tzaangors to savage. Maybe marines with no chaff, but good luck with everyone else.

grouchoben wrote:
Ah so now it's not just the four units in your example?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'll do it for you if you want -

Assuming the charge is made, with warptime, tzaangor +1 and CP reroll all options. Also assuming *zero* buffs from the accompanying Termi Sorcerer:

a) 1 Tzaangor dies to overwatch.
b) Tzaangors activate VoTLW and 8.7 Rubrics die
c) Tzaangor player has option to activate Cycle of Hatred and wipe the remaining Rubric and the exalted, or save the points and watch the Rubric 'attack' back.

A melee unit spending CPs that makes its charge against a shooting unit wins. good job! you've just proven that Mutilators are 100% superior to Dark Reapers as well.

These kinds of comparisons are dumb from the beginning. We're giving the Tzaangors one offense and defense buff from the terminator sorc, and just granting that they succeed the 41% chance of getting to attack at all. We're pairing the Rubrics with an exalted sorceror for some reason, instead of giving them a 10-cultist or brimstone screen, or put them in a rhino, which is what you do in real games with competently built shooting lists to prevent this exact scenario from occurring.

Add that in to the fact that in the first place of COURSE a unit who puts a large number of points into a shooting attack with a relatively high AP value is going to struggle against a unit with no armor save at all in melee, and you're going to have a slanted comparison from the start (which is why it's so weird to me that the scenario was blatantly set up to try and show the rubrics at an advantage )

It doesn't prove anything to compare units in a vacuum like this. If you pit 2000 points of Dark Reapers against 2000 points of Black Templars Assault Marines, the assault marines would probably win eventually just by virtue of enough of them getting into combat after the drop that the reapers would have next to no shooting. but you've just gone through a completely pointless exercise, because in practice that's not how the DR focused armies in top tier lists are actually operating.

Overall, I'll say this about rubrics and tzaangors: The first unit of thirty tzaangors, the ones who get to use the deep strike stratagem and warptime and have the option to use Cycle of Slaughter if there's a high enough reward, those Tzaangors are markedly superior to any unit of rubrics. When you look at the second unit of tzaangors, where your only choices are bad (Deep strike them again, but now it costs 2CP to do it, and they don't get warptime for a reliable charge, or put them in a rhino that costs more points than the whole squad, or put them out on foot where they'll just get shot before they do anything) that unit and all units following it are largely pointless. Can you make a Tzaangor focused list by souping into a Chaos detachment and bringing them alongside other good chaos units? You probably can, since the Tsons trait is largely going to be irrelevant in a tzaangor based list. Can you also build a Tsons army using rubrics as the rest of the troops and have it be reasonably successful? I certainly have, I've used my one unit of thirty tzaangors alongside rubrics and been totally happy with it.

Yeah I don't think it has to be an OR situation with Rubrics and Tzaangors, not in a pure army. I think they can play relatively well off one another (and both ultimately do different things). I will say from a soup-y stand point I prefer Tzaangors to Rubrics but I think a pure TSons army you can and likely should be running both of the units.

Shinzra wrote:
Its quite interesting seeing the divide in the community for the codex. Some people really really like it, then others sound like they think its trash.

I wouldn't call it a divide.

There are some very loud voices on each side, but overall people seem to agree about some basic ideas: the relative value of certain units, the ones that are overcosted, the effectiveness of psychic / tzaangors, etc.

The big question seems to be whether Rubrics and Tzaangors belong in the same book. Tzaangors have some obvious benefits, and it's hard to build an effective army that's pure Rubrics. The fact they have to work together for the Codex to be good seems to be what's really ticking people off. It would be nice to run a Thousand Sons army without the chaff.

For me, it helps when I call Tzaangors BEASTMEN. We had them in Rogue Trader and GW made the bad decision to drop them out of the 40k universe. When I look at Tzaangors all I can think is these are Beastmen with bird parts. Fits the fluff.

So I like having Beastmen back, but do they belong in Codex: TS? It's disappointing that this is the only place GW chooses to represent them. Beastmen we're not just hordes in the original fluff, they were mutants that represented a large percentage of the population on human worlds - along with mutants, abhumans, etc. They should be an option for every Chaos army.

There's a lot of reasons TS would want to have cheap, disposable creatures doing their bidding. That's what Sorcerers do, they have minions scurrying around for them.

It just feels like TS depend too much on Tzaangors and this was a poor design decision. GW could have done so much more with them.

"All fine and dandy and if you reread my post carefully I state how it's stupid to compare these units in a vacuum."

Mate, I'm just responding to *your* hypothetical fight! And no, you said no such thing in the post I was responding to. You may have been thinking it, but it's nowhere to be found in that post.

1) You build a hypothetical fight which appeared to show Rubrics winning in a 1-1 fight.
2)When I pointed out that that was because they went first, and proved that to be the case, suddenly ...
3) there's screening units too.
4) And now comparing units in a vacuum is stupid.

3 & 4 were excluded by the terms of *your* hypothesis...

All shooting units need a screen in 8th. That's not a rubric thing, that's an 8th edition thing. Tzaangors serve a lovely double function where you invest some extra points into them, and they can either serve as a competent screen, or they can serve as a melee alpha strike tying things up in the matchup vs a gunline.

They go beyond the bare minimum, but I don't think they're 100% necessary if you're not playing top tier tournament level stuff. You can get the screen component without the alpha strike with Cultists, Brimstones, heck I've even had pretty good success with Flamers (the daemon unit, not the weapon) in that role. You need a unit to stand more than 4" away from the shooty stuff in a line, that's it, or those melee alpha matchups are going to make you sad every time.

The Tzaangors are just really nice as an auxiliary because they help equally in most every matchup, while the cheap cultists or whatever only help vs the melee alpha. They're both screen and highly effective distraction carnifex.

If you were so inclined, Bloodletters would probably do you just as good, if not better, in that distraction carnifex role. they'd certainly kill more stuff.But they'd be much less fluffy, so I'll use the tzaangors.

 Farseer_V2 wrote:
Yeah I don't think it has to be an OR situation with Rubrics and Tzaangors, not in a pure army. I think they can play relatively well off one another (and both ultimately do different things). I will say from a soup-y stand point I prefer Tzaangors to Rubrics but I think a pure TSons army you can and likely should be running both of the units.

Agreed. Almost every list of mine has Rubrics, Tzaangors, and Cultists.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

grouchoben wrote:
"All fine and dandy and if you reread my post carefully I state how it's stupid to compare these units in a vacuum."

Mate, I'm just responding to *your* hypothetical fight! And no, you said no such thing in the post I was responding to. You may have been thinking it, but it's nowhere to be found in that post.

Here - I found it for you:

If you're within 12" (e.g. you landed and killed my screen).

 techsoldaten wrote:

Shinzra wrote:
Its quite interesting seeing the divide in the community for the codex. Some people really really like it, then others sound like they think its trash.

I wouldn't call it a divide.

There are some very loud voices on each side, but overall people seem to agree about some basic ideas: the relative value of certain units, the ones that are overcosted, the effectiveness of psychic / tzaangors, etc.

The big question seems to be whether Rubrics and Tzaangors belong in the same book. Tzaangors have some obvious benefits, and it's hard to build an effective army that's pure Rubrics. The fact they have to work together for the Codex to be good seems to be what's really ticking people off. It would be nice to run a Thousand Sons army without the chaff.

For me, it helps when I call Tzaangors BEASTMEN. We had them in Rogue Trader and GW made the bad decision to drop them out of the 40k universe. When I look at Tzaangors all I can think is these are Beastmen with bird parts. Fits the fluff.

So I like having Beastmen back, but do they belong in Codex: TS? It's disappointing that this is the only place GW chooses to represent them. Beastmen we're not just hordes in the original fluff, they were mutants that represented a large percentage of the population on human worlds - along with mutants, abhumans, etc. They should be an option for every Chaos army.

There's a lot of reasons TS would want to have cheap, disposable creatures doing their bidding. That's what Sorcerers do, they have minions scurrying around for them.

It just feels like TS depend too much on Tzaangors and this was a poor design decision. GW could have done so much more with them.

Well.. Yes they are beastmen with bird parts. Tzaangors are essentially Tzeentch Marked/Mutated Beastmen like the old days, instead of a brighter color or changed horns they changed them to fit the aesthetic.

Pestigor's were mentioned in the fluff, and beastmen are as well. Hopefully we'll see some new stuff for our old mutated friends. (Bring back Slaangors!)

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Well.. Yes they are beastmen with bird parts. Tzaangors are essentially Tzeentch Marked/Mutated Beastmen like the old days, instead of a brighter color or changed horns they changed them to fit the aesthetic.

Spoiler:

Pestigor's were mentioned in the fluff, and beastmen are as well. Hopefully we'll see some new stuff for our old mutated friends. (Bring back Slaangors!)

I had completely forgotten they appeared in Slaves to Darkness. Good find!

The best part about that page is the sentence: "Chaos Spawn are subject to the rules for stupidity."

 techsoldaten wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Well.. Yes they are beastmen with bird parts. Tzaangors are essentially Tzeentch Marked/Mutated Beastmen like the old days, instead of a brighter color or changed horns they changed them to fit the aesthetic.

Spoiler:

Pestigor's were mentioned in the fluff, and beastmen are as well. Hopefully we'll see some new stuff for our old mutated friends. (Bring back Slaangors!)

I had completely forgotten they appeared in Slaves to Darkness. Good find!

The best part about that page is the sentence: "Chaos Spawn are subject to the rules for stupidity."

Every time someone complains about "randomness for randomness' sake" ruining things in modern 40k, I think back to some of the rules that used to exist in previous editions/older games.

Anyone feel like playing Ogres/Vamps in blood bowl? roll a die every time you want to use a unit for anything. On a 1, it doesn't do it. WOW FUN!

the_scotsman wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Well.. Yes they are beastmen with bird parts. Tzaangors are essentially Tzeentch Marked/Mutated Beastmen like the old days, instead of a brighter color or changed horns they changed them to fit the aesthetic.

Spoiler:

Pestigor's were mentioned in the fluff, and beastmen are as well. Hopefully we'll see some new stuff for our old mutated friends. (Bring back Slaangors!)

I had completely forgotten they appeared in Slaves to Darkness. Good find!

The best part about that page is the sentence: "Chaos Spawn are subject to the rules for stupidity."

Every time someone complains about "randomness for randomness' sake" ruining things in modern 40k, I think back to some of the rules that used to exist in previous editions/older games.

Anyone feel like playing Ogres/Vamps in blood bowl? roll a die every time you want to use a unit for anything. On a 1, it doesn't do it. WOW FUN!

Ha! But back then many armies were subject to that, the Ork painboy chart is what gave us old Ghazzy in the first place, not even counting the amazing things you could cobble together in the old ranged weapon chart.

But yeah, I feel that Tsons should get more Rubric stuff.. and more planet of the Sorcerer stuff too. Either way I really want the Scarab Sorcerers to get a unique weapon rather then just standard power swords (Maybe Power Khopesh instead?)

ITT people who dont have a clue how to play TS let alone 40k in general, and people who dont know TS lore

Why are you like this dakka whyyy

Rubrics vs. Tzaangors = Irrelevant as both units are in our army.

Rubrics = cost prohibitive in general = relevant

Compare Intercessors with Stalker Bolt Rifles (-2AP, 1 shot, heavy) with their 2W/2A/6"M to the Rubrics with a Psychic power and double shots in 12". 20 points for Intercessors vs. 22 for a Rubric.

That's more apples to apples comparison. Rubrics are meant to be a tanky fire base that hangs back, so are intercessors.

Add a wound and attack to Rubrics to call it a day.

Zodd1888 wrote:
Rubrics vs. Tzaangors = Irrelevant as both units are in our army.

Rubrics = cost prohibitive in general = relevant

Compare Intercessors with Stalker Bolt Rifles (-2AP, 1 shot, heavy) with their 2W/2A/6"M to the Rubrics with a Psychic power and double shots in 12". 20 points for Intercessors vs. 22 for a Rubric.

That's more apples to apples comparison. Rubrics are meant to be a tanky fire base that hangs back, so are intercessors.

Add a wound and attack to Rubrics to call it a day.

20 for Rubrics. Or are you averaging their cost with the sorcerer?

They do need a point drop. I don't think anyone denies that, but taking them to 16 instead of 18 is only going to save me 30 to 40 points in my list and I still wouldn't drop my screens. It might make taking big blobs more of a possibility, but that's all. Flamers coming down would be nicer in my opinion.