Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Honestly, i kind of want an additional benefit to the Sorcerer. I mean since he no longer has a debuff for dying.

Maybe if you don't cast with the Sorcerer he could use his sorcerer might to improve the Rubrics once per turn. Like

A multi-tool: Gets several things he can buff them on. Let them aim better (+1BS), make them hit harder (AP-3 or S5 instead), or fire more flames (+1 to shots, or Rapid fire 2)

I will interject my thoughts once more. A big problem with AS and the unit they are attached to is that the AS is limited to casting from change. This often times leaves them to mini-smite which goes against the spirit and reasons for the change that allows them to take a power.

This does not take into account perils.

Let us look at units that are restricted to casting from Change.
SoTs
Rubrics
Tzaangor Shaman.

Let us not assume we give core powers like weaver and glamour to a more reliable casting platform such as Magnus and Ahriman/terminator sorc. So with that in mind if we take two rubric squads, one SoT squad and one Shaman.

There is a very real chance that boon will be a dead spell for many lists (which is a problem with that spell) so we give glamour to the shaman and weaver to the SoTs. We then give firestorm and the heal (name escapes me at 4:43 am). Now we are out of spells from that disp to give to any of our exalteds,sorcs, termi sorcs and or extra shaman.

This problem is greatly compounded if you choose to give weaver and glamour to a better casting platform seeing as how critical those spells can be. You see where this is going.

IMHO rubrics and sots should have not been given the option to take spells but should have had a native power that mimics firestorm in function but follows the rules for smite. Problem solved. That problem at least.

For the last time ill say my piece because redundancy can be annoying. This was a rushed codex. We have some really cool options and stratagems. The codex has serious issues with internal balance and is crippled by some very suspect and foolish rules, I feel if the codex had at least a few more weeks in play testing a lot of the above could have been identified and changed. That said I do enjoy playing 1ksons and am happy we got a codex at all. I am hoping that our feedback will help produce a better codex when and if we get another codex drop.

I think overall after reading this thread and the great amount of discussion and posts it has received, just shows how popular Thousand Sons as a legion are.

And at least from my view, sure rubrics are over costed and other parts could use tweaks, but chapter approved can fix many of those.

So overall to see most people believe it to be a balanced/good army, I think that shows the book is a solid book that hopefully with chapter approved and faqs will get better.

It's not. It's a middle tier codex externally with the most horrible internal balance ever and a serious lack of options.

Let's make one thing clear: TS are not competitive. Period. We will never see TS armies winning tournaments. People who say "yeah but ap-2 shooting" etc have probably never been in a tournament setting. TS would get trampled at tournaments. End of story.

That being said, 90% of warhammer is not played in tournaments. So the sentence above does not matter much. For friendly games, TS are ok. you can either go goats and probably win against your opponent because tzaangor at 7 pts and enlightened at 15 are dirt cheap. or you can play the most intense herohammer since WHFB 6th edition simply by virtue of having great characters. Drown your opponent in spells, manage some synergy around the spells you cast and try to focus fire down critical parts of their army by having all of your army shooting at that one dude over there in the corner. You can also fit a scarab alpha deep strike in the same list with the herohammerish characters and call it a day. And that's pretty much the armies you can build.

With that being said, what most people have a problem with is a codex that really smells like it was written sloppily and in haste. In particular:

1. Rubrics and Scarabs are the exact same thing, period. not only in role but also in points cost. This is bad design.

2. Rubrics have two different entries in two different valid codexes at the same time. After the FAQ. This is sloppy design.

3. TS had 4 kits (rubrics, scarabs, exalted sorcs and Magnus) with half of them being characters and the other two being the same unit twice. This was clearly not enough to make a codex, so they decided to slap all other CSM units that look "tzeentchy enough" and call it a day. The severe lack of synergy between the units, the mismatch between the tactical roles (we have 3 fast units - two of which are goats) and 5 distinct HQ entries (all sorcerers, and an extra sorcerer in fast choices just for kicks). Also the discrepancy between the units available (all the HQs are sorcerers, not one different entry. All Heavy supports are vehicles, not one infantry like havocs or oblits). This is bad design.

4. Exalted sorcerers have absolutely no idea what they are supposed to be doing. No identity, no uniqueness, no real reason of existing. (And that's 1 of your 4 total kits gone). This is bad design.

5. Apparent urge to push goat sales. Anybody tries to deny it they,well, live in denial. No stratagems or synergy for the most iconic units in the army, tons of support and a whole new monster benefiting clearly the hth units (which are???). This is sloppy design.

6. For all their previous reputation, TS units are not extra durable any more. Loss of 4++ save is a big thing, 5++ is widely spread nowdays, many units got it for no points cost change (ie genestealers). Shows that 5++ is not really a thing that should cost points nowdays. Yet rubrics pay premium points for it. Also loss of reroll 1's on saves. All is dust is fine on the rubrics, it's absolutely useless on the scarabs. TS units are priced based on the potential that they could be buffed to be durable, but this is also why we pay points on our sorcerers in the first place. This is bad game design.

7. Aspiring sorcerers are not designed correctly. People say they are "cheap 30 pt psykers, like an astropath blah blah". They are not. You can't pay 30 pts and get one, you need to pay 100+ pts in the least. They can't smite to save their life and they kill their whole unit once they peril with no questions asked. This is 2018, not 2003. Necrons don't self dissapear at 25% any more, tyranids don't eat themselves if out of synapse any more. Self punishing rules have been opted out. Yet this is still a thing for Aspirings. "but you can keep a reroll open and then you are fine". One should never have to plan for failure or designer mistakes. Every other army is free to use their reroll whichever way they see fit. I have to keep mine aside in case the stupid sorcerer decides to nuke his own unit. This is bad game design.

8. The psychic spells of the TS lore are priced (in casting cost) with the backthought that the army has the potential to get bonuses on casting rolls. By doing this they automatically negate the bonus of being able to potentially get bonuses on the casting rolls. For which we do pay premium points on our characters. This is designing on the super safe side of things. Something that has never been done with Eldar codexes for example.

9. Trying to invent lore by force, featuring new different "families" of TS, all of which are some form of blue (ranging from cyan to magenda) with yellow, except the one that's yellow with blue. Wow. Such variety. Many chapters. So diverse. Wow.

10. Magnus is the worst of the existing primarchs. This is a minor thing anyways, because if you go Primarch game you might as well just toss logic and balance out of the window too. So I don't care about this one.

Ultimately the thing is that the codex was designed poorly. It has some very strong parts (warlord traits, relics, HQ choices) and some very very weak parts (rubrics, exalted sorc, internal balance/synergy). Being able to cast a million spells is nice, being forced to cast your million spells in order to bring your dudes on par with the other armies negates that. I used to play TS exclusively in 7th edition. Now, between this codex and the new Tyranid one (my other army), I think I will be pushing 1 game of TS for every 4 games of Tyranids I play. The Tyranid codex really hit it out of the park with the variety, the balance and the multiple ways to play in this edition. It should be an example to all other codices. TS one should be the opposing side of the argument. Not because it's bad (it's not), but because it's rushed, bland and uninteresting.

I cant really disagree with any complaints people have, they are entitled to opinions and I have not even played 1 game yet with the book.

but the models look excellent, I am even a big fan of the tzaangor models and being able to use them for both 40k and sigmar opens up more aspects.

but at the same time, not every book that comes out needs to be a top tier codex, it does not need to be as good as eldar or soup armies.

topaxygouroun i wrote:
10. Magnus is the worst of the existing primarchs. This is a minor thing anyways, because if you go Primarch game you might as well just toss logic and balance out of the window too. So I don't care about this one.

Agree with everything. Just wanted to throw in two cents here. Magnus is garbage on a stick now. He has literally become a display piece for me, he will never leave the cabinet again.

The loss of the re-roll, the fact that they couldn't be bothered to give him a bodyguard unit at least, the decision to give him, after viewing all the new TS warlord traits, they decided to give him the most utterly useless warlord trait possible. Seriously, look at the list, I challenge you to find a TS warlord trait that is worse for him than the one he currently has, it is honestly a trait he can't even use without spending CP.

I almost believe this codex is beyond lazy, at this point I really consider it punitive, for some reason I don't really understand, but there it is.

topaxygouroun i wrote:
...I used to play TS exclusively in 7th edition...

This part here helps me understand the rest of your critique. I'm not saying you're wrong...you're probably right, but the fact that you had skin in the game and they failed to deliver for you really helps frame your hatred of the TS codex.

Me, I've just now decided to start collecting Thousand Sons, and I'm no where near as upset with the options provided. I'm sure there are a lot of gamers out there like me who are just now discovering this army and are happy to be building / painting some gorgeous models. If you allow us a sliver of optimism while we work on our lists and paint our models, I'm sure we'll look forward to hearing some of your veteran advice.

 Voidwraith wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:
...I used to play TS exclusively in 7th edition...

This part here helps me understand the rest of your critique. I'm not saying you're wrong...you're probably right, but the fact that you had skin in the game and they failed to deliver for you really helps frame your hatred of the TS codex.

Me, I've just now decided to start collecting Thousand Sons, and I'm no where near as upset with the options provided. I'm sure there are a lot of gamers out there like me who are just now discovering this army and are happy to be building / painting some gorgeous models. If you allow us a sliver of optimism while we work on our lists and paint our models, I'm sure we'll look forward to hearing some of your veteran advice.

I played them in 7th and I enjoy the book. Managing them last edition was a nightmare and they still weren't as useful as they are now. Although I do like the Exalted and SoT sorc better in 7th.

I think the army has 2 linchpin builds.

1 revolves around buffing tzzangors
1 revolves around buffing pink horrors.

Everyone knows the Tzzangor strat but the pink build I only know because thats how I play my Tzeentch daemons. I think TS and Daemons of Tzeentch work better together than with mono build.

Supreme command daemons with
LOC/Fatey/Change Caster

TS battlion
Ahriman
Pinks
some chaff

and mutilators vortex beasts

You clear the chaff with pinks then you charge with a bunch of big models that produce heavy mortal wounds.

The disappointment I am sure lies with the truth that Rubrics got pretty left behind in this codex. At least the terminators are pretty good - I just haven't figured out the best way to use them.

All in all. I'd say it's on the upper end of the middle. Probably not quite as good as tyranids but plays at about the same level.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I think the army has 2 linchpin builds.

1 revolves around buffing tzzangors
1 revolves around buffing pink horrors.

Except TS is horrible at buffing Pinks, and they break the Legion bonus when included in a detachment. The reality is if you want to use Tzeentch Daemons you're better off using one of the CSM Legions, you'll have more synergy and more useful units.

There is literally no reason for this codex to exist in its current form. It is entirely masturbatory.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

There is literally no reason for this codex to exist in its current form. It is entirely masturbatory.

Sure. Instead of going in circles forever the interested parties can come discuss the book intelligently in the tactics thread. I'm done looking at ridiculous hyperbole.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Sure. Instead of going in circles forever the interested parties can come discuss the book intelligently in the tactics thread. I'm done looking at ridiculous hyperbole.

I could re-post topaxy's entire post, since he pretty much hit the nail on the head.

But you're right, calling it entirely masturbatory is hyperbolic.

However, I will continue to stand by the fact that there is really no reason to play this army other than aesthetic preference. It is not, and in it's current form, will never be a top table codex. It's not even worth a detachment, you are hindering yourself by including a TS detachment.

This is not the case with Death Guard, who have amazing synergy with Nurgle Daemons, compelling units and strategies, so we know that GW is capable of making a compelling single legion codex.

They simply didn't care enough to do so with Thousand Sons.

Fair enough. I'm taking mono-TS to a local Adepticon format feeder in April and then to Nova. Not a lot of ITC around here at the moment for some reason, but i'll be logging and reporting on all my games after them.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I think the army has 2 linchpin builds.

1 revolves around buffing tzzangors
1 revolves around buffing pink horrors.

Except TS is horrible at buffing Pinks, and they break the Legion bonus when included in a detachment. The reality is if you want to use Tzeentch Daemons you're better off using one of the CSM Legions, you'll have more synergy and more useful units.

There is literally no reason for this codex to exist in its current form. It is entirely masturbatory.

Because of the way you are talking about TS not being good at buffing pinks, I must have missed a FAQ or something. I'm thinking the change caster with +1 S bubble combined with a Vortex beast +1 str + a flickering flames cast would make them pretty reliably have 5 S with +1 to wound. So pretty reliable 2+ to wound on infantry and 4+ at worst against up to t9. Daemons can't do this easily because their other +1 str bonus is random. I guess I could make it work with daemons just by bringing a thousand sons spear head with 3 vortex beast and a daemon prince to do the same thing.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also just a question to all you people that seems relevant here.

I bought a full TS army for an amazing deal. Here are the contents.

30 Rubrics
10 Terms
3 Exalted Sorcerers
Ahriman
Magnus

Magnus I'm totally fine with not using but what would be the best things to include to make that list work?

Can I ask, genuinely...who actually expects codices based on such small armies to actually be world-beating competitive lists which can win LVO? Is that an actual expectation of players like Deathwatch, Harlequins, Grey Knights, Thousand Sons etc.

Do players actually believe they'll end up with a book strong enough to take their 10 unit options and beat the rest of the codices out there? I've never seen these mini-armies as anything other than A) a money grab to make you buy a book, and B) a nod to fans of certain sub-factions who wanted some cool models.

Xenomancers wrote:
Also just a question to all you people that seems relevant here.

I bought a full TS army for an amazing deal. Here are the contents.

30 Rubrics
10 Terms
3 Exalted Sorcerers
Ahriman
Magnus

Magnus I'm totally fine with not using but what would be the best things to include to make that list work?

Ahriman

The rest is really up to the chaff you have to guard rubrics and which stratagems you want to make use of. It's highly unlikely that you'd ever have 30 Rubrics in a list. I have a hard time taking more than 5 SOT so you have to really focus on them.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Elbows wrote:
Can I ask, genuinely...who actually expects codices based on such small armies to actually be world-beating competitive lists which can win LVO? Is that an actual expectation of players like Deathwatch, Harlequins, Grey Knights, Thousand Sons etc.

Do players actually believe they'll end up with a book strong enough to take their 10 unit options and beat the rest of the codices out there? I've never seen these mini-armies as anything other than A) a money grab to make you buy a book, and B) a nod to fans of certain sub-factions who wanted some cool models.

How many units are eldar currently using to win? As long as a book offers the basics...chaff, at, etc...then it should have a good enough chance as long as there are no dark reaper type imbalances.

Shinzra wrote:
I think overall after reading this thread and the great amount of discussion and posts it has received, just shows how popular Thousand Sons as a legion are.

And at least from my view, sure rubrics are over costed and other parts could use tweaks, but chapter approved can fix many of those.

So overall to see most people believe it to be a balanced/good army, I think that shows the book is a solid book that hopefully with chapter approved and faqs will get better.

If dakka is anything to go by id say in completely arbitrary terms that it is more of a 50/50 split in happiness with the codex drop. I am one of the rare few in the middle of the road. I love my faction but I also recognize there are SERIOUS issues with the codex. If you think any of it will get fixed in the next CA then I think you will be sorely disappointed. They had the chance to fix the dual rubric profiles in the FAQ and doubled up on derp instead. I will remain hopeful that GW sold enough Gors to warrant a second codex in a few years. Until then we have what we have.

Also, armies like 1ksons and GK's are highly reliant on the health of the psychic phase (witch - lol) in this edition, is pretty weak.

Table wrote:

Shinzra wrote:
I think overall after reading this thread and the great amount of discussion and posts it has received, just shows how popular Thousand Sons as a legion are.

And at least from my view, sure rubrics are over costed and other parts could use tweaks, but chapter approved can fix many of those.

So overall to see most people believe it to be a balanced/good army, I think that shows the book is a solid book that hopefully with chapter approved and faqs will get better.

If dakka is anything to go by id say in completely arbitrary terms that it is more of a 50/50 split in happiness with the codex drop. I am one of the rare few in the middle of the road. I love my faction but I also recognize there are SERIOUS issues with the codex. If you think any of it will get fixed in the next CA then I think you will be sorely disappointed. They had the chance to fix the dual rubric profiles in the FAQ and doubled up on derp instead. I will remain hopeful that GW sold enough Gors to warrant a second codex in a few years. Until then we have what we have.

Also, armies like 1ksons and GK's are highly reliant on the health of the psychic phase witch in this edition, is pretty weak.

I don't expect any significant changes will come to TS until September the earliest. GW is going to let them sit for a while. It's a decent book and other things need to come down towards it for the moment.

So we have had some posts saying what they don't like and the cons with the codex.

Let's add some positives as Well, as it seems to be a very popular legion and many players may wish to try the army out and start collecting especially if your not a tournament player.

From what I can tell

. Tzangors
. Ahriman
. Best daemon princes
. Warlord traits and relic options seem good to me

. Tzangor enlightened also probably need play testing but on paper for the pts cost, sound a nice mobile unit.

. 6 inch extra range on psychic powers, I think is very strong tbh especially when you have a wide range of spells to choose from

Shinzra wrote:
So we have had some posts saying what they don't like and the cons with the codex.

Let's add some positives as Well, as it seems to be a very popular legion and many players may wish to try the army out and start collecting especially if your not a tournament player.

From what I can tell

. Tzangors
. Ahriman
. Best daemon princes
. Warlord traits and relic options seem good to me

. Tzangor enlightened also probably need play testing but on paper for the pts cost, sound a nice mobile unit.

. 6 inch extra range on psychic powers, I think is very strong tbh especially when you have a wide range of spells to choose from

I would add the following
Mutalith Vortex Beast
Spawn having some use due to the stratagem (that is if your opponent does not delete them first).
Excellent Stratagems despite VoTLW being the only one to buff ranged attackers.
Shaman are great elite purchases that not only buff but also have some offense along with speed.

Enlightened Tzaangor are a steal at the current point values. Very flexible unit that can either provide ranged skirmishing fast attack options or my favorite is to give them divining spears as to let them threaten vehicles and monsters along with infantry. Add in a shaman while casting prescience on them gives them auto wounding on 4+. Combine that with the 2 damage spears and you can skewer bad things. Also hitting them with the -1 ap option from the vortex beast puts them at str 5 -2 ap and 2 damage on the charge. Thats is a nice package if all the buffs land. Even without one or two components they tear things up all the while being cheap as dirt.

We also get nearly unrestricted access to CSM vehicle and demon engines (unlike the Death Guard), This is a bigger deal than most admit. Add in forge world options like a Fire Raptor (cast glamour on it for a lol -2 to be hit) or the various hel brutes and you have some serious hitting power.

Honestly the codex is just under tournament tier. With a few tweeks and point drops we could have been up there with the other top tier armies.

 Elbows wrote:
Can I ask, genuinely...who actually expects codices based on such small armies to actually be world-beating competitive lists which can win LVO? Is that an actual expectation of players like Deathwatch, Harlequins, Grey Knights, Thousand Sons etc.

Do players actually believe they'll end up with a book strong enough to take their 10 unit options and beat the rest of the codices out there? I've never seen these mini-armies as anything other than A) a money grab to make you buy a book, and B) a nod to fans of certain sub-factions who wanted some cool models.

Nobody. This is not a rant about the power level of TS. This is a rant about how uninspired and cheap can a codex be. The Tyranid codex has 40 ish different entries of units and all of them manage to feel and play different, unique and with a distinct role upon the table, and that does not even account for the different hive fleets that can make armies play completely different from each other even if they have the same composition. Are they all good units? No, but that's not the point. There's variety, there's pluralism, there are unique playstyles and above all: THERE IS FUN in playing the new Tyranids. If tyranids can manage to find 40 unique adaptations for 40 different units, then TS should have been able to do so with 10 units. Let's see Tyranids vs TS per slot on the variety scale:

HQ: Tyranids:
Hive tyrant (can play as flying dakka, flying melee or backfield artillery + synapse provider), also psyker.
Broodlord: melee powerhouse, buffer for genestealers
Tyranid Prime: Warrior facilitator, buffer for warriors, synapse provider, midfield support.
Tervigon: Summoning specialist, buffer for termagants, shooting platform, durable HQ, weak psyker
The Swarmlord: Slow midfield close combat specialist, army synergy facilitator, psyker
Neurothrope: Psyker, buffer for Zoanthropes., cheap.
Old One Eye: Buffer for carnifexes, melee powerhouse, durable.

Bonus tyranid characters outside HQ:
Deathleaper: Assassination expert and front line facilitator.
Trygon Prime: Deep strike monster, alpha strike facilitator for your units, Deep strike enabler, durable, melee powerhouse, forward synapse support.

Let's do the same for TS:

Ahriman: Psyker, buffer for everyone with the same aura as the other HQ.
Exalted Sorcerer: Psyker, buffer for everyone with the same aura as the other HQ.
Sorcerer: Psyker
Daemon Prince: Psyker, buffer for everyone with the same aura as the other HQ, melee powerhouse.
Magnus: Psyker, buffer for everyone with the same aura plus an extra aura as the other HQ, melee powerhouse.

Bonus characters outside the HQ slot:

Tzaangor Shaman: Psyker. buffer for tzaangors.

See the example above. See the depth and pluralism of the Tyranid HQ slots vs the equivalent one for the TS. This is what I am talking about. We have half the amount of units and options of tyranids and yet we still managed to hastily copy-paste everything on the same models. Here's how EASILY I can fix that for you in 3 minutes:

Ahriman: Add black staff: Whenever he casts a power that inflicts MW, that power inflicts one additional MW instead. Make his aura "reroll 1's to saves" instead. Now you have a witchfire specialist who can double as protection for your units.
Exalted Sorcerer: Take away his 18 powers, give him 3 distinct unique psychic powers, all of them augmenting hth potential. Keep his aura. Make him cheaper and give him a badass hth weapon. Now you have a great battle wizard and also buffer for your shooting units.
Sorcerer: Give him +1 to cast. Give him option to go on a bike or a disc. Now you have a great sorcerer with an actual reason to pick him and he can act as a buffer or a facilitator as you see fit.
Daemon Prince: Make his aura only work on daemons. Now you have a unit that's not auto-take but still feels powerful enough to consider on a specialized list.
Magnus: Change his reroll 1's to hit aura with a +1 to cast aura for the sorcerers.

Extra points:
Aspriring sorcerers: Make them HQ. Able to join units of rubrics or scarabs respectively. They can only mini smite and no actual powers, but they give their unit +1 invul save and +1 movement. While at it, lower the cost of rubrics and scarab units.

Look above. Now you can play your HQ without feeling you just picked the same unit 3 times. Want psychic dakka? Pick Ahriman. Want melee TS? Pick exalted sorcerers. Want Daemon summoning? Pick DP. Want an all around decent caster? Pick a sorcerer. Want to play your rubrics cheap and weak -mindless automaton style- ? Play them naked. Or add an aspiring and suddenly the automatons are augmented by the presence of their sorcerer around them, they become faster, more organized and more durable.

Suddenly, you can have different army list building which don't feel like a chore and you have PLURALISM in your army. And it only took me 3 mins and 10 lines to do it. Surely proffessionals can do better. Or at least they should.

topaxygouroun i wrote:

Ahriman: Add black staff: Whenever he casts a power that inflicts MW, that power inflicts one additional MW instead. Make his aura "reroll 1's to saves" instead. Now you have a witchfire specialist who can double as protection for your units.

You just forced Ahriman to being the most boring character ever. Firestorm, Infernal Gaze, and Doombolt would be the only spells he ever takes. That's just lazy.

Exalted Sorcerer: Take away his 18 powers, give him 3 distinct unique psychic powers, all of them augmenting hth potential. Keep his aura. Make him cheaper and give him a badass hth weapon. Now you have a great battle wizard and also buffer for your shooting units.

Here's an idea. Stick him on a disk. Give him Seer's Bane, Diabolic Stregnth, and CP swap for Boon of Change. Cast Boon of Mutation on him from AS. You now have 6 S6/S12 AP3 D3 attacks. If you manage to roll a 7 or 9 you get D3 + 1 on that weapon. Look at that - great battle wizard.

Sorcerer: Give him +1 to cast. Give him option to go on a bike or a disc. Now you have a great sorcerer with an actual reason to pick him and he can act as a buffer or a facilitator as you see fit.

You got me there. There isn't a lot of reasons to take him outside of saving 27 points over an exalted, but I still find myself using it as he still stands as a very flexible caster.

Daemon Prince: Make his aura only work on daemons. Now you have a unit that's not auto-take but still feels powerful enough to consider on a specialized list.

Even without his aura entirely he's auto-take.

Magnus: Change his reroll 1's to hit aura with a +1 to cast aura for the sorcerers.

Might be a little strong and doesn't solve his other problems.

Aspriring sorcerers: Make them HQ. Able to join units of rubrics or scarabs respectively. They can only mini smite and no actual powers, but they give their unit +1 invul save and +1 movement. While at it, lower the cost of rubrics and scarab units.

That causes a bunch of list building and rules quandaries and you'd have to offload the cost drop to him.



The variety of this army happens at spell selection or which spells and units you want to work around. The book is not limited to itself, either. And sure, blah blah, not Thousand Sons.

Ultra Horrors - DP, Changecaster, Mutalith, and blocks of Horrors
Tzaangor Bomb
"Monster" Mash - Defilers, Maulerfiends, buffs
Bridage lists centered around using CP abilities
"Biker" gors - 6x6 (better for morale) Enlightened w/ melee focused exalted and a couple shaman or under 1000 - add tzaangors, msu rubrics, mutaliths, and heldrakes to your liking
"The lost" - spawn and more spawn and msu rubrics
Leadership bomb - Mutaliths and Raptors

Among many other options.

The very fact that we do need other codexes to build interesting list should be an alarm in itself imho. I can't accept your logic. Because if I'm going to use other codexes, why do I really need TS in the first place?

topaxygouroun i wrote:
The very fact that we do need other codexes to build interesting list should be an alarm in itself imho. I can't accept your logic. Because if I'm going to use other codexes, why do I really need TS in the first place?

All of those units are in codex thousand sons.

It's not exactly a problem with Tsons though, given how many armies are souping up.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:
The very fact that we do need other codexes to build interesting list should be an alarm in itself imho. I can't accept your logic. Because if I'm going to use other codexes, why do I really need TS in the first place?

All of those units are in codex thousand sons.

It's not exactly a problem with Tsons though, given how many armies are souping up.

Raptors and tzeentch heralds are not. Without heralds, picking horrors is useless (plus the horrors in the TS book do not have thousand sons keyword so they can only be summoned, not selected in a list).

I don't think you have to ally at all or soup up.

34% currently off the poll view them as a good army that can compete, for many including myself that's fine.

Don't need to be the best codex out there

Shinzra wrote:
I don't think you have to ally at all or soup up.

34% currently off the poll view them as a good army that can compete, for many including myself that's fine.

Don't need to be the best codex out there

I just want it to be interesting even if I lose every time. Even casting powers is not fun for me any more. Sure 18 powers and all this, but it's essentially buffs and d3 MW placers. I just want variety in my TS menu. And I don't feel like I have it right now.

topaxygouroun i wrote:
The very fact that we do need other codexes to build interesting list should be an alarm in itself imho. I can't accept your logic. Because if I'm going to use other codexes, why do I really need TS in the first place?

Mutaliths, enlightened, spell access, casting bonuses, and relics.

You could do similar lists without TS, but csm nor cd have casters this strong (barring greater daemons) or units at all like enlightened or mutaliths among other things.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

Shinzra wrote:
I don't think you have to ally at all or soup up.

34% currently off the poll view them as a good army that can compete, for many including myself that's fine.

Don't need to be the best codex out there

I just want it to be interesting even if I lose every time. Even casting powers is not fun for me any more. Sure 18 powers and all this, but it's essentially buffs and d3 MW placers. I just want variety in my TS menu. And I don't feel like I have it right now.

I dunno. I find great enjoyment on nabbing a +4 to cast (without magnus) and forcing through a game changing spell, the high flexibility of deploy plus DMC, or forcing my opponent to alter their plan through, buffs, debuffs, and strats.

topaxygouroun i wrote:

Shinzra wrote:
I don't think you have to ally at all or soup up.

34% currently off the poll view them as a good army that can compete, for many including myself that's fine.

Don't need to be the best codex out there

I just want it to be interesting even if I lose every time. Even casting powers is not fun for me any more. Sure 18 powers and all this, but it's essentially buffs and d3 MW placers. I just want variety in my TS menu. And I don't feel like I have it right now.

And you have it. Between Three types of gors , vortex beasts, tons of HQ picks, power armored infantry, demon engines and vehicles, you have choice. The problem is you do not like what is on offer not that there is no list diversity. And adding in Tz demon detachments is very fluffy (seeing is how often the sons summon demons).

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
It is not, and in it's current form, will never be a top table codex. It's not even worth a detachment, you are hindering yourself by including a TS detachment.

Oh I don't know - an outrider detachment, for example, could leverage 1kSons pretty nicely -


++ Outrider Detachment +1CP (Chaos - Thousand Sons) [35 PL, 729pts] ++
+ HQ +
Daemon Prince of Tzeentch [9 PL, 180pts]: 5. Otherworldly Prescience, Death Hex, Diabolic Strength, Helm of the Third Eye, Malefic talon, Warlord, Wings
+ Elites +
Tzaangor Shaman [5 PL, 90pts]: Force stave
+ Fast Attack +
Tzaangor Enlightened [7 PL, 153pts]: Aviarch, 8x Enlightened, Fatecaster greatbows
Tzaangor Enlightened [7 PL, 153pts]: Aviarch, 8x Enlightened, Fatecaster greatbows
Tzaangor Enlightened [7 PL, 153pts]: Aviarch, 8x Enlightened, Fatecaster greatbows

That many Enlightened would drop Magnus in 1 round; you gain access to Chaos' only CP farm & Death Hex; every unit has 12" move; you've bought 28 40mm bases, so lots of board control; your shooting can't be stopped by being tied up in CC; and you've got some pretty nice CC of your own to boot.

On the downside, having to paint 27 Enlightened would send you utterly mad.