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 Xenomancers wrote:


Bottom tiers. It's an index army worse than regular SM. Less shooty but more choppy and the melee units are all quite expensive.

Space wolves are better than codex space marines.

 Blackie wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:


Bottom tiers. It's an index army worse than regular SM. Less shooty but more choppy and the melee units are all quite expensive.

Space wolves are better than codex space marines.

I think with the CA, dropping points in some key units of the wolves, they are decent. TWC are better now with their points drop, Wuflen as well and especially with the new stratagem allow them to outflank. Also worth note is, the FW Dreadnought Droppod got quite a point decrease, so taking a "Axe Shield" Dread and Murderfang in two Droppods might be good.

They may still not be good, at least they are not top tier of course, but I don't think they are trash tier. Furthermore, their Codex is not out yet, who can say what kind of potential they would have?

From my point of view, the interesting part of the debate is a reflexion when you want to start a new army without loosing every single game.
So off course, spam armies aren't that representative about the codex in general and tournament players aren't the regulars players.
Sooo boyz (with their flying and hidding conterparts) are clearly mid tier but the ork codex is deeply low-tier... orks have won some tournaments but few in comparaison of other lists...
And Tau have just been released so we need time to see if it's working or not


Automatically Appended Next Post:
and the big FAQ or the next chapter approuved will probably change the meta

Neophyte2012 wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:


Bottom tiers. It's an index army worse than regular SM. Less shooty but more choppy and the melee units are all quite expensive.

Space wolves are better than codex space marines.

I think with the CA, dropping points in some key units of the wolves, they are decent. TWC are better now with their points drop, Wuflen as well and especially with the new stratagem allow them to outflank. Also worth note is, the FW Dreadnought Droppod got quite a point decrease, so taking a "Axe Shield" Dread and Murderfang in two Droppods might be good.

They may still not be good, at least they are not top tier of course, but I don't think they are trash tier. Furthermore, their Codex is not out yet, who can say what kind of potential they would have?

I agree, I think they're decent and I enjoy playing with them. But they're worse than SM, especially UM and RG, that's for sure. I'm talking about the current index+CA SW, maybe with the codex they'll be top tiers, at the moment they don't stand a chance against competitive armies. Including the strongest UM and RG lists.


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 axisofentropy wrote:
8th edition Top 3 finishes by Ork armies at GT and Major events in the 2017 ITC season:

1st Overall Wet Coast GT 2017

3rd Overall Caledonian Revolution 2017

2nd Overall Rampager GT 2017

2nd Overall EastCon 2017

1st Overall Attack-X 2017

2nd Overall Warzone Atlanta 2017

That's more than Tyranids. And it's more than Tau, Dark Angels, and Thousand Sons combined.

Orks are not low tier.

(Source: http://bloodofkittens.com/8th-edition-top-army-list-compendium/ )

Tournaments data are always important but you have to consider than orks work very well with a single built, the green tide, in 3 turns games. Even with their strongest built orks are not about killing stuff but avoiding getting tabled and scoring points. In regular 5-7 turns games the same lists that managed to placed in those tournaments struggle a lot against the same competitive opponents.

Competitive TAC lists can kill 40+ orks per turn and of course if the game doesn't last more than 3 turns those 150+ orks are durable enough to win the game. In a regular 40k game even the strongest green tides are very far from the top tiers level.

I hope that the people who are talking about SW and Orks realize that the discussion is supposed to focus on Codex armies (like it says in the title).

Nah that's good... it's more like best actual faction (and as you can see all the index are pretty low in this little chart)

 Fafnir wrote:

 meleti wrote:
I don't think good units need to be nerfed. I don't even want any Eldar units other than Reapers and maybe Spears to be changed in March. I just think the broader point (which has been expressed by other posters here) that Eldar so who have a weak codex buoyed by Dark Reapers is pure nonsense. If that isn't your position, then we probably agree on Eldar.

Avatar of Khaine
Autarchs that don't ride bikes
Most of the Phoenix Lords
Warlock Councils
Howling Banshees
Striking Scorpions
Shadow Spectres (not codex, but I'm sore)
Swooping Hawks
Windriders
Vypers
Warp Spiders
Falcons
Nightspinners
Support Batteries
Wraithlords
Wraithknights

All units ranging from mediocre to outright terrible.

Looks like a list of average units that perform well vs their counterparts in other armies. I'd rather take a wraithlord over a dreadnought for example. I'd rather take scorpions than a unit of company veterans. Compared to an imperial knight - wraith knights are about even. Falcons are better then predators for less points and they transport units.

What I am saying is - the bad eldar stuff isn't nearly as bad as other armies bad stuff. I know because I fool around with it all the time.

2 units that don't even belong on your list are support batteries and swooping hawks though.
For the cost of a space marine a swooping hawk has a 24" assault 4 gun with str 3. The ability to deep strike and cause mortals for jumping over units and insane mobility.
75 point d cannons aren't weak.


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 Blackie wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:


Bottom tiers. It's an index army worse than regular SM. Less shooty but more choppy and the melee units are all quite expensive.

Space wolves are better than codex space marines.

No they're not. SW have better melee but they're way worse in shooting, several units are basically the worse version of the SM counterpart, I'm looking at long fangs/devastators and stormwolf/stormravens mostly. Not to mention that the wolves have only one stratagem at the moment, which allows to outflank a unit, nothing else. And this edition doesn't favor heavy hitters in melee.

Pure SM lists can be decent in competitive metas, SW ones can't.

ballzonya wrote:
I play orks and they are not top tier. Its on ongoing debate as to playing one build makes you top tier. 90% of their models are not good does that make it top tier no it doesn't.

Except everyone argues that for Eldar, and Space Marines as well.

The Orks have a very powerful army. One that works exactly as the army is supposed to. An unstoppable wall of boys with some random crap in the back field. That is Orks. Mean while your Space Marine armies are all Bobby G with Razorbacks, or Bobby G with Devestators, or Bobby G with Hellblasters. Not a tactical squad in sight. Marines have a single gimmicky build, that doesn't work with how they are supposed to work.

Orks are a top tier army, and IMO they're only going to get better when their codex drops.

 djones520 wrote:

ballzonya wrote:
I play orks and they are not top tier. Its on ongoing debate as to playing one build makes you top tier. 90% of their models are not good does that make it top tier no it doesn't.

Except everyone argues that for Eldar, and Space Marines as well.

The Orks have a very powerful army. One that works exactly as the army is supposed to. An unstoppable wall of boys with some random crap in the back field. That is Orks. Mean while your Space Marine armies are all Bobby G with Razorbacks, or Bobby G with Devestators, or Bobby G with Hellblasters. Not a tactical squad in sight. Marines have a single gimmicky build, that doesn't work with how they are supposed to work.

Orks are a top tier army, and IMO they're only going to get better when their codex drops.

Orks have always been a combined arms forces - there's just more of them then there are of the enemy.

Also, a space marine is a space marine, "tactical marine" or not - if anything, the army is functioning exactly how its supposed to; look up every classical image of space marines that exist - they're always locked into one area, surrounded on all sides, guns-a-blazin'. How is that NOT how they're supposed to work?

Also, fluff should be 1:1 equal to gameplay rules, am i right?

Don't try to tell my that because I have one single model (plus KFF Mek, so, two models) that form an army that wins entirely by skewing the meta, that Orks are fine - they're not. Hell, if having one good entry means you're a good army; lets cut out all the misc bullcrap and reduce each codex to one-two units a piece; because that's all that matters, what people are going to spam.

Eldar: Psyker+Dark Reaper
Ork: Boy+Big Mek
Space Marine: Guilliman+Razorback
Astra Militarum: Infantry+Manticore
Tau: Firewarrior+Cadre Commander
Tyranids: Genestealer+Big Bug that moves them
etc, etc

fe40k wrote:

 djones520 wrote:

ballzonya wrote:
I play orks and they are not top tier. Its on ongoing debate as to playing one build makes you top tier. 90% of their models are not good does that make it top tier no it doesn't.

Except everyone argues that for Eldar, and Space Marines as well.

The Orks have a very powerful army. One that works exactly as the army is supposed to. An unstoppable wall of boys with some random crap in the back field. That is Orks. Mean while your Space Marine armies are all Bobby G with Razorbacks, or Bobby G with Devestators, or Bobby G with Hellblasters. Not a tactical squad in sight. Marines have a single gimmicky build, that doesn't work with how they are supposed to work.

Orks are a top tier army, and IMO they're only going to get better when their codex drops.

Orks have always been a combined arms forces - there's just more of them then there are of the enemy.

Also, a space marine is a space marine, "tactical marine" or not - if anything, the army is functioning exactly how its supposed to; look up every classical image of space marines that exist - they're always locked into one area, surrounded on all sides, guns-a-blazin'. How is that NOT how they're supposed to work?

Also, fluff should be 1:1 equal to gameplay rules, am i right?

Don't try to tell my that because I have one single model (plus KFF Mek, so, two models) that form an army that wins entirely by skewing the meta, that Orks are fine - they're not. Hell, if having one good entry means you're a good army; lets cut out all the misc bullcrap and reduce each codex to one-two units a piece; because that's all that matters, what people are going to spam.

Eldar: Psyker+Dark Reaper
Ork: Boy+Big Mek
Space Marine: Guilliman+Razorback
Astra Militarum: Infantry+Manticore
Tau: Firewarrior+Cadre Commander
Tyranids: Genestealer+Big Bug that moves them
etc, etc

You don't even have the orks correct.

They have lots of good units.
Storm boys
Commandos
KMC
Weird boy

and it's all cheap horde - the best units in the game right now. It even looks like an ork army. I'm sorry your dreads suck - but take a look around - everyones dreadnoughts suck.

Gulliman + razorbacks hasn't been top tier since IG dropped.

Guilliman + fire raptors though. Yep everyone wants to run out and add 1-3 2-300$ flyers to their "SM" list to be competitive (it's the only SM list that is placing at tournies now-a days).

At least orcs have hope that their codex will help.

As far as the list goes it seems a pretty good representation.

I'm curious where Tau fall after their book is digested. It seems like they can be a really dangerous force built around fire-warriors, drones and kroot with commander deepstrike support but I'm curious to see how they show up in tournaments.

 petitflacheur wrote:
The question is simple;
Right now, what are the faction ranking in the game? top tier, mid tier and low tier
I'll try to keep the average of all post in this first post: do you agree, do you disagree?

On 20/03/18
[snip]

I know it's an index still... but it's amusing that Adeptus Ministorum doesn't even make the list, when other index things did.

bananathug wrote:
Gulliman + razorbacks hasn't been top tier since IG dropped.

Guilliman + fire raptors though. Yep everyone wants to run out and add 1-3 2-300$ flyers to their "SM" list to be competitive (it's the only SM list that is placing at tournies now-a days).

At least orcs have hope that their codex will help.

As far as the list goes it seems a pretty good representation.

I'm curious where Tau fall after their book is digested. It seems like they can be a really dangerous force built around fire-warriors, drones and kroot with commander deepstrike support but I'm curious to see how they show up in tournaments.

Why would you ever bring kroot? Just bring more fire warriors. The 4+ save alone and the for the greater good is worth the +2 points.

 Melissia wrote:
I know it's an index still... but it's amusing that Adeptus Ministorum doesn't even make the list, when other index things did.

wow ur rite. They have some GT placings and may be mid-tier.

 Xenomancers wrote:

bananathug wrote:
Gulliman + razorbacks hasn't been top tier since IG dropped.

Guilliman + fire raptors though. Yep everyone wants to run out and add 1-3 2-300$ flyers to their "SM" list to be competitive (it's the only SM list that is placing at tournies now-a days).

At least orcs have hope that their codex will help.

As far as the list goes it seems a pretty good representation.

I'm curious where Tau fall after their book is digested. It seems like they can be a really dangerous force built around fire-warriors, drones and kroot with commander deepstrike support but I'm curious to see how they show up in tournaments.

Why would you ever bring kroot? Just bring more fire warriors. The 4+ save alone and the for the greater good is worth the +2 points.

Scout move. Kroot are a cheap way to screen away deep strikers and certain turn 1 charge shenanigans.

 meleti wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

bananathug wrote:
Gulliman + razorbacks hasn't been top tier since IG dropped.

Guilliman + fire raptors though. Yep everyone wants to run out and add 1-3 2-300$ flyers to their "SM" list to be competitive (it's the only SM list that is placing at tournies now-a days).

At least orcs have hope that their codex will help.

As far as the list goes it seems a pretty good representation.

I'm curious where Tau fall after their book is digested. It seems like they can be a really dangerous force built around fire-warriors, drones and kroot with commander deepstrike support but I'm curious to see how they show up in tournaments.

Why would you ever bring kroot? Just bring more fire warriors. The 4+ save alone and the for the greater good is worth the +2 points.

Scout move. Kroot are a cheap way to screen away deep strikers and certain turn 1 charge shenanigans.

Firewarrior lines kind of want to get charged don't they? It will remain to be seen I guess but I don't think deep strike close combat is going to be effective against tau. I think stealth suit do this job better anyways.

Someone in another thread called them Xenos IG. I think that is pretty close. Commanders are plasma scions.

I'm not sure their big guns are quite as good as IG and without the mant/basi indirect fire tanks they maybe at a disadvantage but IG doesn't have anything approaching Y'vahra flame power so there's that (shadowsword?)...

bananathug wrote:
Gulliman + razorbacks hasn't been top tier since IG dropped.

Guilliman + fire raptors though. Yep everyone wants to run out and add 1-3 2-300$ flyers to their "SM" list to be competitive (it's the only SM list that is placing at tournies now-a days).

At least orcs have hope that their codex will help.

As far as the list goes it seems a pretty good representation.

I'm curious where Tau fall after their book is digested. It seems like they can be a really dangerous force built around fire-warriors, drones and kroot with commander deepstrike support but I'm curious to see how they show up in tournaments.

Your around 400pts Flyer gonna become your opponent's when GSC pskyer cast power on it, and helped enemy to kill Guilliman or other important stuff nearby instead. lol

Deep strikers can have guns too, and fire warriors fold like wet tissue paper to any sort of volume of fire.

 Maelstrom808 wrote:
Deep strikers can have guns too, and fire warriors fold like wet tissue paper to any sort of volume of fire.

You can get 30 fire warriors for a measly 210 points, so you will need A LOT of assault cannon level fire power to clean them away efficiently in a timely and point efficient manner. Because Ap0 guns or morale won't do the job against 7pt 4+ saves, bonding knives and a cheap Ld10 + FnP bubble for several units provided by a sincle Sa'cea Ethereal. And gods forbid if these FWs end up in cover...

Not to mention you have to get that sort of infantry killing fire power into range first... without the several dozen dice of 15"-21" rapid fire S5 guns blasting it off the table.

 Ragnar Blackmane wrote:

 Maelstrom808 wrote:
Deep strikers can have guns too, and fire warriors fold like wet tissue paper to any sort of volume of fire.

You can get 30 fire warriors for a measly 210 points, so you will need A LOT of assault cannon level fire power to clean them away efficiently in a timely and point efficient manner. Because Ap0 guns or morale won't do the job against 7pt 4+ saves, bonding knives and a cheap Ld10 + FnP bubble for several units provided by a sincle Sa'cea Ethereal. And gods forbid if these FWs end up in cover...

Not to mention you have to get that sort of infantry killing fire power into range first... without the several dozen dice of 15"-21" rapid fire S5 guns blasting it off the table.

challenge accepted, 6 raven guard aggressors infiltrated between 13" and 18" away, AKA the raven guard deathball.

2/3 * 2/3 * 1/2 = 2/9 * 114 shots = 25.3 dead tau before morale, for a total point investment of 222pts. You don't want to involve HQ or other support units since the shrike allows them to reroll misses, and a Lt would allow them to reroll ones to wound which would more than offset what a fireblade or an ethereal could provide. Marines have had a long time to cook up counters for massed infantry, and tau do next to nothing special in that area.

 axisofentropy wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
I know it's an index still... but it's amusing that Adeptus Ministorum doesn't even make the list, when other index things did.

wow ur rite. They have some GT placings and may be mid-tier.

Be careful when you read those lists. A lot of them are actually Soup lists, but Sisters flavored instead of Marine flavored.

bananathug wrote:


Guilliman + fire raptors though. Yep everyone wants to run out and add 1-3 2-300$ flyers to their "SM" list to be competitive (it's the only SM list that is placing at tournies now-a days).

Yeah and how much money do orks players should burn to get their most competitive list? KMKs are among the most expensive kits, it's almost 1:1 in terms of money:points and you need at least 4 of them. Stormboyz are sold in packs of 5 dudes, you need at least 30 to make them competitive. Boyz you need 150+, which means another 15+ boxes. Plus characters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Storm wolf is better than a storm raven.

Absolutely not, the stormraven is a pain in the ass thanks to its anti infantry weapons and it can carry a dread IIRC, and as you said cheap hordes are the way to go in 8th edition. The stormwolf is cheaper but is another anti tank source mostly, which is not needed. If it had hurricane bolters it would be great. SW dreads are also decent at least and the possibility of carrying one would make the SW flyer very good. Sadly it's not the case.

I can't believe people are arguing for orks to be anything but low tier. A few things to consider;

1. We are extremely monobuild - massed Boyz, KMK and Weirdboyz are the only units featured in competitive lists.
2. We have not performed well in a tournament since more and more codexes have been released. LVO top ork placed 55th. There were many more factions that had players finish in the top 8 at ITC events across January (we didn't even finish in the top ten aggregate), pre codex Tau for example.
3. There are still units that we have absolutely no way of effectively destroying. Any flyer with - 1 to hit chapter trait. Any stealth units with - 1 to hit chapter trait.
4. The current meta allows our most competitive build to over-perform.
5. The current tournament organisation (limited time, unevenly split between players) allows our most competitive build to over-perform. This will change when players start seeing turn 4 and 5. We cannot survive late game with the firepower other armies have access to.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

4. The current meta allows our most competitive build to over-perform.
5. The current tournament organisation (limited time, unevenly split between players) allows our most competitive build to over-perform. This will change when players start seeing turn 4 and 5. We cannot survive late game with the firepower other armies have access to.

...current metas are the only thing tier lists actually matter for. That's exactly what they're meant to measure. This isn't about how healthy an army is. Orkz are neck-and-neck with Dark Eldar in that regard.

 Grimgold wrote:

 Ragnar Blackmane wrote:

 Maelstrom808 wrote:
Deep strikers can have guns too, and fire warriors fold like wet tissue paper to any sort of volume of fire.

You can get 30 fire warriors for a measly 210 points, so you will need A LOT of assault cannon level fire power to clean them away efficiently in a timely and point efficient manner. Because Ap0 guns or morale won't do the job against 7pt 4+ saves, bonding knives and a cheap Ld10 + FnP bubble for several units provided by a sincle Sa'cea Ethereal. And gods forbid if these FWs end up in cover...

Not to mention you have to get that sort of infantry killing fire power into range first... without the several dozen dice of 15"-21" rapid fire S5 guns blasting it off the table.

challenge accepted, 6 raven guard aggressors infiltrated between 13" and 18" away, AKA the raven guard deathball.

2/3 * 2/3 * 1/2 = 2/9 * 114 shots = 25.3 dead tau before morale, for a total point investment of 222pts. You don't want to involve HQ or other support units since the shrike allows them to reroll misses, and a Lt would allow them to reroll ones to wound which would more than offset what a fireblade or an ethereal could provide. Marines have had a long time to cook up counters for massed infantry, and tau do next to nothing special in that area.

Gotta get past my Kroot Carnivore and Kroot Hound screen first though .

 Ragnar Blackmane wrote:

 Grimgold wrote:

 Ragnar Blackmane wrote:

 Maelstrom808 wrote:
Deep strikers can have guns too, and fire warriors fold like wet tissue paper to any sort of volume of fire.

You can get 30 fire warriors for a measly 210 points, so you will need A LOT of assault cannon level fire power to clean them away efficiently in a timely and point efficient manner. Because Ap0 guns or morale won't do the job against 7pt 4+ saves, bonding knives and a cheap Ld10 + FnP bubble for several units provided by a sincle Sa'cea Ethereal. And gods forbid if these FWs end up in cover...

Not to mention you have to get that sort of infantry killing fire power into range first... without the several dozen dice of 15"-21" rapid fire S5 guns blasting it off the table.

challenge accepted, 6 raven guard aggressors infiltrated between 13" and 18" away, AKA the raven guard deathball.

2/3 * 2/3 * 1/2 = 2/9 * 114 shots = 25.3 dead tau before morale, for a total point investment of 222pts. You don't want to involve HQ or other support units since the shrike allows them to reroll misses, and a Lt would allow them to reroll ones to wound which would more than offset what a fireblade or an ethereal could provide. Marines have had a long time to cook up counters for massed infantry, and tau do next to nothing special in that area.

.
Gotta get past my Kroot Carnivore and Kroot Hound screen first though .

Or Stealth Suits doing their board control thing, either way, Tau have enough board control elements to make it hard to get that ideal deployment. Another important consideration is how MSU affects the efficiency of that deathball. If the fire warriors are in 5 man units there's no way the Aggressors get full bang for their buck. They will still kill stuff (lots of stuff), but you can't just take the raw number without context.

 Grimgold wrote:

 Ragnar Blackmane wrote:

 Maelstrom808 wrote:
Deep strikers can have guns too, and fire warriors fold like wet tissue paper to any sort of volume of fire.

You can get 30 fire warriors for a measly 210 points, so you will need A LOT of assault cannon level fire power to clean them away efficiently in a timely and point efficient manner. Because Ap0 guns or morale won't do the job against 7pt 4+ saves, bonding knives and a cheap Ld10 + FnP bubble for several units provided by a sincle Sa'cea Ethereal. And gods forbid if these FWs end up in cover...

Not to mention you have to get that sort of infantry killing fire power into range first... without the several dozen dice of 15"-21" rapid fire S5 guns blasting it off the table.

challenge accepted, 6 raven guard aggressors infiltrated between 13" and 18" away, AKA the raven guard deathball.

2/3 * 2/3 * 1/2 = 2/9 * 114 shots = 25.3 dead tau before morale, for a total point investment of 222pts. You don't want to involve HQ or other support units since the shrike allows them to reroll misses, and a Lt would allow them to rer-oll ones to wound which would more than offset what a fire-blade or an ethereal could provide. Marines have had a long time to cook up counters for massed infantry, and tau do next to nothing special in that area.

Raven guard huh? Not really a competitive choice is it? Plus if Tau wins the roll to go first you are just down command points for no benefit at all. As easy as they shred infantry with an average of 15.5 shots (impressive but your equation should reflect 93 shots base and fire warriors in cover (15.5)(6) - (That looks like this 93*2/3*2/3*1/3 =13.77) Still nearly make their points back in 1 turn. A 70 point firewarrior unit next to a fireblade actually has comparable firepower because it is str 5. The -1 to hit would hurt across the board though. It would be a good matchup for ravengaurd but ravengaurd aren't competitive vs anything else.

Plus what if tau have a ghost keel? with fusion build and counterfire defense system. Aggressors can't touch the ghostkeel man. He's -2 to hit against the backfield ravengaurd.

Also - commanders gonna have a feild day against the ravens. Have you seen our relic grenade launcher? That weapon alone will wipe a unit of aggressors. Feels bad for marines man.

SoB is for sure top mid or in high tier.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
SoB is for sure top mid or in high tier.

It's really not. Sisters continue to have a lot of problems against vehicles, elite assault units, and nasty characters, having almost entirely anti-horde firepower and practically no assault capability. The best they can do is bring some meltaguns, which aren't that practical for non-vehicle work.