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They also don't have a codex. So they don't belong on a list the codex thread.

 Melissia wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
SoB is for sure top mid or in high tier.

It's really not. Sisters continue to have a lot of problems against vehicles, elite assault units, and nasty characters, having almost entirely anti-horde firepower and practically no assault capability. The best they can do is bring some meltaguns, which aren't that practical for non-vehicle work.

I went up against this list not to long ago and it ended really bad for me.



++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Imperium - Adeptus Ministorum) [45 PL, 782pts] ++

+ Dedicated Transport +

Immolator [5 PL, 105pts]: Immolation Flamer, Storm bolter

Immolator [5 PL, 105pts]: Immolation Flamer, Storm bolter

Immolator [5 PL, 105pts]: Immolation Flamer, Storm bolter

+ HQ +

Canoness [4 PL, 64pts]: Combi-plasma, Power maul

Celestine [14 PL, 250pts]: Celestine, 2x Geminae Superia, Inspiring Orator, Warlord

+ Troops +

Battle Sister Squad [4 PL, 51pts]
. 2x Battle Sister
. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Storm bolter
. Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter
. Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Storm bolter

Battle Sister Squad [4 PL, 51pts]
. 2x Battle Sister
. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Storm bolter
. Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter
. Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Storm bolter

Battle Sister Squad [4 PL, 51pts]
. 2x Battle Sister
. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Storm bolter
. Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter
. Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Storm bolter

++ Outrider Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Adeptus Ministorum) [34 PL, 813pts] ++

+ Dedicated Transport +

Sororitas Repressor [5 PL, 112pts]: Heavy flamer, Storm bolter, Storm bolter

Sororitas Repressor [5 PL, 112pts]: Heavy flamer, Storm bolter, Storm bolter

Sororitas Repressor [5 PL, 112pts]: Heavy flamer, Storm bolter, Storm bolter

+ HQ +

Canoness [4 PL, 66pts]: Eviscerator, Inferno pistol

+ Fast Attack +

Dominion Squad [5 PL, 137pts]
. Dominion Superior: Bolt pistol, Combi-melta
. Dominion w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Dominion w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Dominion w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Dominion w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun

Dominion Squad [5 PL, 137pts]
. Dominion Superior: Bolt pistol, Combi-melta
. Dominion w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Dominion w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Dominion w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Dominion w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun

Dominion Squad [5 PL, 137pts]
. Dominion Superior: Bolt pistol, Combi-melta
. Dominion w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Dominion w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Dominion w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Dominion w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun

++ Outrider Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Adeptus Ministorum) [16 PL, 358pts] ++

+ HQ +

Canoness [4 PL, 64pts]: Combi-plasma, Power maul

+ Fast Attack +

Seraphim Squad [4 PL, 98pts]
. 2x Seraphim
. Seraphim Superior: Bolt pistol, Plasma pistol
. Seraphim w/ Special Weapons: 2x Inferno Pistols
. Seraphim w/ Special Weapons: 2x Inferno Pistols

Seraphim Squad [4 PL, 98pts]
. 2x Seraphim
. Seraphim Superior: Bolt pistol, Plasma pistol
. Seraphim w/ Special Weapons: 2x Inferno Pistols
. Seraphim w/ Special Weapons: 2x Inferno Pistols

Seraphim Squad [4 PL, 98pts]
. 2x Seraphim
. Seraphim Superior: Bolt pistol, Plasma pistol
. Seraphim w/ Special Weapons: 2x Inferno Pistols
. Seraphim w/ Special Weapons: 2x Inferno Pistols

++ Total: [95 PL, 1953pts] ++

This is as close as I can remember it at least. I think one a canoness might have had an eviscerator and inferno pistol instead and I'm sure there were hunter killers. It definitely dealt with anything big.

 Zarroc1733 wrote:
I went up against this list not to long ago and it ended really bad for me.

And last time I faced off against Guard, my Marines wiped them from the board. Does that anecdote thus mean Marines are better than guard?

 Melissia wrote:

 Zarroc1733 wrote:
I went up against this list not to long ago and it ended really bad for me.

And last time I faced off against Guard, my Marines wiped them from the board. Does that anecdote thus mean Marines are better than guard?

No but only one person in my meta has beaten this list, meaning that it's obviously good (at least in my meta)

SoB has been placing high at many tournaments (even top 3 in a few).

They also have lots of anti-tank options, just not "long range" its all mid to short range melta and MM, if you take them. They can literally have a full army of nothing but melta if you wanted, and in Open top rhinoes (more or less).

But.. the problem with tournaments are, some armies do better than others in different rules sets, since there is no one rule set everyone plays its very hard to actually gauge an army other than "who can table the other faster"

 Zarroc1733 wrote:
No but only one person in my meta has beaten this list

Good for them.

So much hyperbole:
"Falcons are better than Predators for less points and they transport units."?

How are Falcons better than Predators, aside from less points and transport cap?
Lets go BL Falcon vs Quad-Las Pred (for best comparision):

Falcon Pros:
-Fly (so get out of CC)
-Move 2" further
-Cost about 3/4ths the Pred
-Can carry 1 small Aspect Warrior squad
-Have 1 better AP

Pred Pros:
-Have 33% more shots
-Have +1S on each shot
-Have +12" range
-Do an EV of 14W vs 9.5W (assuming all hit/wound/fail to save)
-Block LOS

So it's 33% more shots for 33% more points. But each shot is stronger, has longer range, and does more (on average) W.

For the points, they are about right, but Falcons certainly don't outperform Preds per-model.

"I'd rather take scorpions than a unit of company veterans."
Why?

Scorpions are the CWE ASM. They can deploy better, but can't move as well. They hit marginally harder in CC, but they die a bit faster too. You do realize their +1S weapons make them S4? So the only edge they have in doing damage are the +1 to-hit if the entire enemy unit is in cover and their unlikely mandiblasters. And that's compared to ASM - one of the lowest-output CC units around. Vanguard Vets get half again the attacks for very little more points.

Also, the damage output of ASM/VV are the weapons you add to the squad, not the chumps with Chainswords. It's the Sarge (or vet) with a Power Fist - much like it's the Exarch in the SS squad doing it's damage. But unlike VV, the SS can't add a second weapon.

"For the cost of a space marine a swooping hawk has a 24" assault 4 gun with str 3."
For the cost of a Swooping Hawk you could have 3 Guardsmen with a 24" RF 1 gun. Sure, outside 12", 1 less shot. Inside, you get 2 more. And 3 bodies at a 5+ vs 1 body at a 4+. Do you realize that boltguns kill Swooping Hawks exactly twice as fast as Marines, for the same points?

"75 point d cannons aren't weak"
D-weapons are no longer S: D...

Any time Marines get discussed, so much bad logic gets thrown around.

So,
I have placed sisters of battle mid tier for now (do you agree or disagree?)
Changed the titles ( we are talking about codexes and indexes)
And it's seems that Orks are staying in low tier, even with some strong opposition...

And... What was the conclusion about the tau?

 Xenomancers wrote:

Raven guard huh? Not really a competitive choice is it? Plus if Tau wins the roll to go first you are just down command points for no benefit at all. As easy as they shred infantry with an average of 15.5 shots (impressive but your equation should reflect 93 shots base and fire warriors in cover (15.5)(6) - (That looks like this 93*2/3*2/3*1/3 =13.77) Still nearly make their points back in 1 turn. A 70 point firewarrior unit next to a fireblade actually has comparable firepower because it is str 5. The -1 to hit would hurt across the board though. It would be a good matchup for ravengaurd but ravengaurd aren't competitive vs anything else.

Plus what if tau have a ghost keel? with fusion build and counterfire defense system. Aggressors can't touch the ghostkeel man. He's -2 to hit against the backfield ravengaurd.

Also - commanders gonna have a feild day against the ravens. Have you seen our relic grenade launcher? That weapon alone will wipe a unit of aggressors. Feels bad for marines man.

Lets see 6 shots from bolt storm gauntlets 3.5 from fragstorm launchers, times 6 aggressors times 2 because of their trait. so that's 72 (6 * 6 * 2) boltstorm gauntlet shots, plus 42 (3.5 * 6 * 2) fragstorm launchers shots, so 72 plus 42 is 114 unless I'm really failing at the math. so your shorting the aggressors 21 shots, and still have to admit their firepower is awesome. The -1 to hti trait is the strongest chapter tactic in the game, at least until Necrons come out (then it will have a rival), there is a reason all of the dark reapers in the LVO were from craftworld Iyanden. -1 to hit is a reduction in effectiveness of 33% for BS 4, So tau hit like wet noodles against anyone with the trait. Which to be clear is the number one meta list, and several good imperial and chaos soup ingredients.

The boast was what will you do about 30 fire warriors for a mere 210 points, and my response was murder them with ease for about the same number of points, and do it ins a single round. I'm not interested in playing a game of what ifs so you can try to move the goal post. When you have to add in other units it's a sign your argument is boned, because you admit the base argument is beyond salvage by itself and have to try to add other variables to save it. To be clear aggressors are far from the only unit that could handily deal with 30 fire warriors, I could also have said deploy 52 guardsmen, deploy venomthropes, use webway assault on a number of eldar/harlequin units, but I used aggressors because I love the silly number of shots they get.

 petitflacheur wrote:
So,
I have placed sisters of battle mid tier for now (do you agree or disagree?)
Changed the titles ( we are talking about codexes and indexes)
And it's seems that Orks are staying in low tier, even with some strong opposition...

And... What was the conclusion about the tau?

SoB Mid tier is fine for now.

 Grimgold wrote:

The -1 to hti trait is the strongest chapter tactic in the game, at least until Necrons come out (then it will have a rival), there is a reason all of the dark reapers in the LVO were from craftworld Alaitoc. -1 to hit is a reduction in effectiveness of 33% for BS 4, So tau hit like wet noodles against anyone with the trait. Which to be clear is the number one meta list, and several good imperial and chaos soup ingredients.

FTFY. Alaitoc is -1 to hit. Iyanden is only 1 model can flee to morale and you always use the top wounds bracket for models that have them.

 Melissia wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
SoB is for sure top mid or in high tier.

It's really not. Sisters continue to have a lot of problems against vehicles, elite assault units, and nasty characters, having almost entirely anti-horde firepower and practically no assault capability. The best they can do is bring some meltaguns, which aren't that practical for non-vehicle work.

Sisters are honestly quite good right now. They are carried by Celestine and FW repressors.

I played against an army with 5 repressors full of melta gun dominions. It was filth. Stupidly, and unlike any comparable vehicle (like the tidewall, land speeder storm and eldar stuff), the dominions can fire after the tank falls back. I learned some painful lessons in that game!

With the new codexes (Tau, Necrons and Dukhari), did these races raised in the meta? low, mid or top tier?

Mandragola wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
SoB is for sure top mid or in high tier.

It's really not. Sisters continue to have a lot of problems against vehicles, elite assault units, and nasty characters, having almost entirely anti-horde firepower and practically no assault capability. The best they can do is bring some meltaguns, which aren't that practical for non-vehicle work.

Sisters are honestly quite good right now. They are carried by Celestine and FW repressors.

I played against an army with 5 repressors full of melta gun dominions. It was filth. Stupidly, and unlike any comparable vehicle (like the tidewall, land speeder storm and eldar stuff), the dominions can fire after the tank falls back. I learned some painful lessons in that game!

And mass cheap scout squads with mass cheap HB squads, then you have mass cheap Jump units next to Celestine with 5++ re-rolling save that can have 4 Melta pistols (Inferno).

 petitflacheur wrote:
With the new codexes (Tau, Necrons and Dukhari), did these races raised in the meta? low, mid or top tier?

Way too early to be asking, but they've all gotten stronger over their index lists. I think Drukhari has potential to go top tier.

Drukhari codex ins't even out yet. I doubt pure drukhari lists will win tournaments from what I've seen yet but they can easily be mid tiers with several efficient combinations thanks to the new shenanigans and points reductions.

I get the feeling Scourge spam is going to be really hot, but outside of that, it's going to be a solid middle/high-middle codex.

All of the new codexes place above vanilla space marines (like I've been crying about for months now)...

Tau
Crons
Dark angels
Death Guard
DE
SM
TS
CD

Should be the start of the mid-tier list. But I agree with some of the other posters that we should wait and see what crazy builds some of you guys pull out.

I think Crons and DE will have some really powerful builds but Tau may work better (depending on if GW realizes that Y'Vahra is broken). DE may just end up being a very powerful part of Eldar soup but mono-faction they might not be as good as the others (which makes sense).

Also, DG needs to be moved further up the list. Pox walker farms/PBC spam are better than anything vanilla marines are putting out there.

So i added Eldar soup on top tier
Raised Necrons on mid tier
And lefted Dukhari / DE on low tier for the moment
Feel free to agree or disagree, i try to base the ranking on your opinions

And there are no rakings Inside the tiers... that will be impossible to manage...With the v8, factions are somewath way more balanced... there are no awfull factions IMHO

 Melissia wrote:
It's really not. Sisters continue to have a lot of problems against vehicles

Sisters have always had problems with range and mobility. They've never had problems killing any vehicles they can catch up to, and still don't.

elite assault units

Sisters have never had problems dealing with elite assault units. In previous Editions you'd wall them off behind a bunch of vehicles and watch them flail at hulls for 4 turns, assuming you couldn't double them out with all your Meltaguns. In 8th Edition you just walk out of combat with them.

and nasty characters

Sisters have never had problems dealing with nasty characters. See above.

having almost entirely anti-horde firepower

Meltaguns are not anti-horde.

and practically no assault capability

Sisters do not and have never needed any assault capability whatsoever. They need it less than ever now you can walk out of combat.

How are people playing this army? "I brought 30 Celestians and a squad of Repentia and keep getting mulched! Sisters are trash-tier boohoo!"

I'll agree that Sisters chances against Reaper-spam Ynnari aren't great, but that's primarily because Ynnari Reapers have range and mobility, which have been Sisters' weaknesses since forever. Other than that they're a pretty smart Index - not sure where they are tier-wise, but they seem capable enough to me.


EDIT: On-topic, a little explanation of why these armies are appearing in their positions would be nice. Why do people think Nids are god-tier? What is it about Custodes that makes them suck? etc etc.

 BBAP wrote:


EDIT: On-topic, a little explanation of why these armies are appearing in their positions would be nice. Why do people think Nids are god-tier? What is it about Custodes that makes them suck? etc etc.

I like this idea

Assuming that all factions are pure unless listed as soups, I think that Admech is definitely mid tier (above both sisters and Crons) and that space marines are on the low end of mid tier. They have Bobby G and ravenguard; otherwise they’d be worse than Orks.

Oh also Drukhari will not be low tier for long once people figure out how to use their codex. A lot of nice stuff in there


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 petitflacheur wrote:

 BBAP wrote:


EDIT: On-topic, a little explanation of why these armies are appearing in their positions would be nice. Why do people think Nids are god-tier? What is it about Custodes that makes them suck? etc etc.

I like this idea

Custodes are actually quite good the second you add a little guard contingent and a few assassins. For instance, my 2k Custodes is about 1700 points of Custodes. They just lack cheap backfield objective holders and anti psyker inherently. As soon as you cover those weaknesses, they are sweet.

Nids are hit or miss and they can lack staying power, but they can do two turns of board control better than almost any army in the game. They are also counter-meta at the moment, and are a true Swiss army tool that can do anything pretty well. Not super easy to use well but rewarding for the savvy general.

 luke1705 wrote:
Assuming that all factions are pure unless listed as soups, I think that Admech is definitely mid tier (above both sisters and Crons) and that space marines are on the low end of mid tier. They have Bobby G and ravenguard; otherwise they’d be worse than Orks.

.

really it's the fire raptors and stormravens that keep marines above Orks.

Orks are still better than this thread believes. Look at the data.

 axisofentropy wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:
Assuming that all factions are pure unless listed as soups, I think that Admech is definitely mid tier (above both sisters and Crons) and that space marines are on the low end of mid tier. They have Bobby G and ravenguard; otherwise they’d be worse than Orks.

.

really it's the fire raptors and stormravens that keep marines above Orks.

Orks are still better than this thread believes. Look at the data.

Only one built keeps orks low mid tiers, the green tide. Anything else is going to be crushed by turn 3, especially now that almost everyone has a codex. Those data are also referred to three turns games, in which orks perform way better than in regular games (but note: only with a greentide), since even the green tides are not that hard to table in 4+ turns.

They're still an index army though. I take it that that is axis' point; they're pretty close to Marines in power, even before their codex has dropped?

 grouchoben wrote:
They're still an index army though. I take it that that is axis' point; they're pretty close to Marines in power, even before their codex has dropped?

They're not close to marines. In a single match SM vs Orks, SM are clearly in favor. In a regular game with 5-7 turns SM are superior as well. Orks do well in some tournaments because 3 turns game favor them and because tournament metas are usually full of anti tank, which orks can nullify. A real TAC list with the proper amount of anti infantry melts orks quite easily.

We don't know anything about the codex, it may even nerf them They're orks and GW always nerf them I think they will buff a little bit the garbage units to a level that makes them viable at most while nerfing the boyz and weirdboyz spam. That's what I'm expecting with the ork codex: an army that can bring more variety and being mid tiers anyway but with the best lists weaker than the current ones.

 Blackie wrote:


Only one built keeps orks low mid tiers, the green tide. Anything else is going to be crushed by turn 3, especially now that almost everyone has a codex. Those data are also referred to three turns games, in which orks perform way better than in regular games (but note: only with a greentide), since even the green tides are not that hard to table in 4+ turns.

These are all arguments that deny the real world in which competitive games are actually played. Is this thread about ranking factions in some hypothetical world?

The definition of competitive play is not unique: I conisder competitive play a battle with optimized lists.

The hypotetical world is the tournament setting, which is defined by house rules, like the turns limitation and each tournament has its own house rules, sometimes chosen from a standard format, like ITC. A real game lasts 5-7 turns.

 axisofentropy wrote:

 Blackie wrote:


Only one built keeps orks low mid tiers, the green tide. Anything else is going to be crushed by turn 3, especially now that almost everyone has a codex. Those data are also referred to three turns games, in which orks perform way better than in regular games (but note: only with a greentide), since even the green tides are not that hard to table in 4+ turns.

These are all arguments that deny the real world in which competitive games are actually played. Is this thread about ranking factions in some hypothetical world?

Can you provide your data that shows Orks are over performing in tournaments?

As I understand we have yet to be in the top ten armies that have most often been in the top 3 of GT events. What I mean is in both January and February 10 more factions finished in the top 3 of GT events more often than Orks. Including Ultramarines, Black Legion and pre-codex Tau.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Can you provide your data that shows Orks are over performing in tournaments?

 axisofentropy wrote:
8th edition Top 3 finishes by Ork armies at GT and Major events in the 2017 ITC season:

1st Overall Wet Coast GT 2017

3rd Overall Caledonian Revolution 2017

2nd Overall Rampager GT 2017

2nd Overall EastCon 2017

1st Overall Attack-X 2017

2nd Overall Warzone Atlanta 2017

That's more than Tyranids. And it's more than Tau, Dark Angels, and Thousand Sons combined.

Orks are not low tier.

(Source: http://bloodofkittens.com/8th-edition-top-army-list-compendium/ )