Getting Started... with newer models

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**auticus**

I could be mistaken but I don't think you actually lose the attack of the hornblower. He is assumed to also be carrying the two handed weapon.

**skoffs**

Been following this thread for a bit now. It's had some pretty good info for someone looking to get into the game.
Got interested when I saw there was a Skirmish version... thing is, though, it's turning out to be pretty hard to find good info on Death Skirmish tactics (what's good, what to avoid, example lists, etc.)
Forgive me for slightly derailing the thread, but if someone wants to dip their toe in the shallow pool of Skirmish, how does one go about "Getting Started... with newer (Death) models"?

**Marmatag**

auticus wrote:
I could be mistaken but I don't think you actually lose the attack of the hornblower. He is assumed to also be carrying the two handed weapon.

That would make life a lot easier, from a modeling perspective.

**Kanluwen**

skoffs wrote:
Been following this thread for a bit now. It's had some pretty good info for someone looking to get into the game.
Got interested when I saw there was a Skirmish version... thing is, though, it's turning out to be pretty hard to find good info on Death Skirmish tactics (what's good, what to avoid, example lists, etc.)
Forgive me for slightly derailing the thread, but if someone wants to dip their toe in the shallow pool of Skirmish, how does one go about "Getting Started... with newer (Death) models"?

The Nighthaunt and Grave Guard boxes I linked earlier were designed with Skirmish and Allies rules in mind. There's also the Flesh Eaters Court "Nighthaunt Feast" box.

I can't really give you 100% advice on their playstyle in Skirmish, but look at any of the Start Collectings or the $65 boxes. Those would give you a good leg up.

**skoffs**

Kanluwen wrote:
skoffs wrote:
Been following this thread for a bit now. It's had some pretty good info for someone looking to get into the game.
Got interested when I saw there was a Skirmish version... thing is, though, it's turning out to be pretty hard to find good info on Death Skirmish tactics (what's good, what to avoid, example lists, etc.)
Forgive me for slightly derailing the thread, but if someone wants to dip their toe in the shallow pool of Skirmish, how does one go about "Getting Started... with newer (Death) models"?

The Nighthaunt and Grave Guard boxes I linked earlier were designed with Skirmish and Allies rules in mind. There's also the Flesh Eaters Court "Nighthaunt Feast" box.

I can't really give you 100% advice on their playstyle in Skirmish, but look at any of the Start Collectings or the $65 boxes. Those would give you a good leg up.

Yes, it was your earlier post that brought me to this thread.
The thing is, I don't know what in those boxes are actually of much use in Skirmish.
Like, for all I know Hex Wraiths and Black Knights are a bad idea to take in a Skirmish list.

Tried the search function but it didn't really give me anything along the lines of what I'd been hoping for (a Death centeric Skirmish tactics/list building guide)

**Kanluwen**

skoffs wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
skoffs wrote:
Been following this thread for a bit now. It's had some pretty good info for someone looking to get into the game.
Got interested when I saw there was a Skirmish version... thing is, though, it's turning out to be pretty hard to find good info on Death Skirmish tactics (what's good, what to avoid, example lists, etc.)
Forgive me for slightly derailing the thread, but if someone wants to dip their toe in the shallow pool of Skirmish, how does one go about "Getting Started... with newer (Death) models"?

The Nighthaunt and Grave Guard boxes I linked earlier were designed with Skirmish and Allies rules in mind. There's also the Flesh Eaters Court "Nighthaunt Feast" box.

I can't really give you 100% advice on their playstyle in Skirmish, but look at any of the Start Collectings or the $65 boxes. Those would give you a good leg up.

Yes, it was your earlier post that brought me to this thread.
The thing is, I don't know what in those boxes are actually of much use in Skirmish.
Like, for all I know Hex Wraiths and Black Knights are a bad idea to take in a Skirmish list.

Tried the search function but it didn't really give me anything along the lines of what I'd been hoping for (a Death centeric Skirmish tactics/list building guide)

I guess the better question is are you playing one-off Skirmish games or slow-grow Skirmish?

With one-off Skirmish games, you might have some issues with some of this stuff--with slow-grow Skirmish, these things add up. It's important to remember that Skirmish caps out when/how some stuff is available. Like there's no giant monsters, there's nothing too crazy out there. There's lots of randomness in that regards, where things like the Lord-Aquilor for the Vanguard side of Stormcast can't be taken---despite being literally the most sensible character for a Skirmish game!

**Marmatag**

I've found skirmish doesn't make sense at lower renown levels. you'll have like 3 models total, so if someone has a way to reliably deal mortal wounds that's the game. This was my experience with Skirmish playing my friend's models.

Arcane bolt in and of itself becomes a really strong ability to have, because you'll be able to blast 1 of 3-4 models off of the table per turn, at range.

If you are going with a start collecting, make sure you look at what he mentioned - the 65$ boxes. The 85$ boxes will have models that are either not allowed or are way too costly for skirmish, such as Arkhan.

I'm not convinced skirmish is the best way to start AoS, being 100% honest.

**auticus**

I would agree with you. The skirmish rules are very lacking and as you saw, the min/max issues with the game at higher levels are exasperated at the skirmish level.

**Kanluwen**

I will always suggest Path to Glory over Skirmish at this point.

**Marmatag**

Kanluwen wrote:
I will always suggest Path to Glory over Skirmish at this point.

Path to Glory is not for new players.

As a new player, I went out and bought a start collecting box, only to find out that named characters such as Arkhan are not allowed, and the force i'm building is incompatible with the format.

People with more robust collections will be able to get more miles out of it.

**auticus**

Depends on your environment. I just brought in a solid dozen new players through path to glory last year, but they all went in having been briefed that named characters aren't part of path to glory.

Some of them have named models anyway for when we went beyond Path to Glory but it was very successful.

**Kanluwen**

Marmatag wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
I will always suggest Path to Glory over Skirmish at this point.

Path to Glory is not for new players.

As a new player, I went out and bought a start collecting box, only to find out that named characters such as Arkhan are not allowed, and the force i'm building is incompatible with the format.

People with more robust collections will be able to get more miles out of it.

I can't help but disagree. A well-run Path to Glory, with a more realistic Blood and Might threshold is a great thing--especially if you run it like the recent Malignant Portents campaign where you have set days for gaming and give people time to get forces together.

Also it's worth mentioning that in the back of the book, there's a thing for "Start Collecting! Warbands" which specifically calls out Arkhan the Black as relevant.

There's also a specific callout that you don't have to roll for the units you add in. Page 18 states that you can choose from any of your tables or roll for them.

**Marmatag**

Yes, I know, I told the guy running our local path to glory about those warbands and he said, "nope, no named characters." This was a bad experience with a guy who has sort of taken over running anything campaign related, and is kind of a jerk about it. There were 4 of us interested, and he decided on this format and restrictions without any discussion. I'm a bit salty about it since I wanted to play. Oh well. I'm not buying another box just because he arbitrarily decided on a restriction.

**Kanluwen**

Marmatag wrote:
Yes, I know, I told the guy running our local path to glory about those warbands and he said, "nope, no named characters." This was a bad experience with a guy who has sort of taken over running anything campaign related, and is kind of a jerk about it. There were 4 of us interested, and he decided on this format and restrictions without any discussion. I'm a bit salty about it since I wanted to play. Oh well. I'm not buying another box just because he arbitrarily decided on a restriction.

I mean, you wouldn't have had to buy another box if you didn't want to.
You could have just grabbed the Wight King blister for $14.75, the price for him hasn't changed despite the packaging and round base. Genuinely surprised me on that one. Or the Necromancer!

I can understand being annoyed about it, but your situation was a relatively easy fix.

Skirmish involves having to actually set up your own point values for a lot of stuff that isn't included but should have been, and recognizing that the book's values are best described as "lacking" for starting games. GW seemingly gives themselves the Skirmish Warband Leader at 0 points, it's the only way any of their stuff makes sense there.

**Marmatag**

Yeah, i won't dive into it deeper, it was more how things were handled, and some of the general requests that were ignored (not having scheduled play days, a missing narrative component, etc). Anyway, Auticus seems like he runs well built and thought out campaigns. Ultimately it depends on who is running it, and in what capacity are they participating.

Regardless, the general advice when starting is "buy what you like." Especially when you're still learning the basics. That would be my advice to someone starting 40k.

**EnTyme**

Kanluwen wrote:
I will always suggest Path to Glory over Skirmish at this point.

I still play Hinterlands when I get the skirmish itch.

**Kanluwen**

EnTyme wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
I will always suggest Path to Glory over Skirmish at this point.

I still play Hinterlands when I get the skirmish itch.

Hinterlands is a bit hard to convince people to get into, in my experience.

It's easier when I can just say "Hey, we're gonna do Path to Glory".

**timetowaste85**

Marmatag wrote:
So, I figured i'd follow up since some times has gone by -

I made the decision to go down the Legions of Nagash road.

I feel it translates well from 40k, and the playstyle that works for me there. Screen big units and use a host of threats to attack / hold objectives. And casting spells is what it's all about. Really enjoy that Nagash has a billion spells to pick from, which is a wonderful refresher from 40k where i have only 6 no matter how kickass your psyker is supposed to be.

I got the Start Collecting: Skeleton Horde, and Nagash himself. I don't know how often i'll actually get to play Nagash, but it is far and away the coolest model i've seen by GW. I should have a picture up by July of him LOL. I also bought the Battletome, which i found to be a very high quality book overall. (anyone else like that new book smell? Reminds me of opening old school magic cards).

I was very surprised to see that the units in this start collecting box can be configured in quite a few different ways.

For instance, I have several decisions to make in my very immediate future:

1. What hero to take? I will probably go with Arkhan here. The box seems to lack mortal wounds, and his unique spell has some real potential. Also, his hat is neat. To use a reddit meme... change my mind! If i'm going purely on the "looks cool" factor Arkhan seems the way to go. And you can't go wrong with cool.

2. Hexwraiths or Black Knights? At first glance I cannot envision a scenario where Black Knights are superior to Hexwraiths. Like how is this even a choice? Am i missing something with black knights?

3. The skeletons are my little basic bitch buddies, In reality i see leaning towards grave guard. I doubt they can be built this way, but hey, never hurts to ask. I also have sepulchural guard from Shadespire. Is there a way to leverage these guys, too? They're decent models in and of themselves.

Other small notes- i'm having trouble figuring out how many spells exactly these guys can cast per turn. It looks like Nagash knows 3 of your choice and can cast quite a few. Arkhan knows the ones described, and also +1 of his choice. But not sure how many he can actually cast.

Does locus of the Shyish work with Nagash and Arkhan regardless of my "faction" (Nagash, Sacrament of <insert here>, etc)?

Thanks everyone.

It took me around 20 hours to paint Nagash. Maybe more. Well worth it when done, but I would never opt to paint that model again. It was tough. Good luck!!

**Marmatag**

Do you have a picture? It's always nice to admire others work

**timetowaste85**

I do, yeah. It’s actually my friend’s; I painted it for his store display cabinet. It’s basically dead-center (no pun intended) in the middle of his shop.

**Moogypies**

Marmatag wrote:
That necromancer power is amazing. For some reason I thought Nagash could take it! But you're right being able to pile in and go choppy is really good in the psychic phase.

How do you protect the necromancer from ranged attacks? Can't anyone target anything in Sigmar regardless of wounds? (I mean, i know LOS blocking terrain is a thing of course but just wondering if that's something you can rely on in AOS).

Automatically Appended Next Post:

auticus wrote:
If you're playing even semi-competitively then yeah... spamming mortal wounds is pretty much one of the holy cornerstones of AOS.

Well i'm okay with him having a "competitive list," i will just need to adapt a bit. Nagash, Arkhan can spit out decent mortal wounds per turn.

Like me, he likes the big cool models. He'll be running a Stardrake. So any unit i bring with less than 6 wounds or a way to save mortal wounds will definitely be dead in 2 hero phases.

Are Fenrisian wolves an acceptable "counts-as" for dire wolves?

Also do you bother with a hornblower in grave guard squads? seems like overkill, and i wouldn't want to lose the attack with a great wight blade.

You keep the necromancer huddled by skeletons or guard to defer his wounds onto them

people usually take 2 for the case that one gets sniped.

No one would care about fenrisian wolves being dire as long as base sizes are similar/same.

Models with banners and instruments unless it specifies otherwise always have the se weapon as the squad.

For skirmish , I've found my spirit hosts do quite well usually due to the save, mortal wounds and amount of wounds however theyre direly slow.

If were showing nagash'es I only finished my one a couple days ago

not as impressive as the one in the your aos projects though!

**Marmatag**

Those are still both really cool! I am not a good painted. I like painting, but i'm not good at it. I'm tempted to commission some of the work on Nagash.

I'm going to buy some fenrisian wolves (i've always wanted some of these, anyway, it's a good excuse to buy them) to be my dire wolves. What base size should they go on? I would imagine Fenrisian wolves are on 25mm round (hopefully not slotted).

I have to be careful. I'm in that stage where i'm super excited to play, but don't have the models built and painted. I'm going to take it a bit slow and make sure I don't buy a ton of stuff and create a huge painting backlog.

I should have Arkhan painted by this weekend, i'll put up some pictures when i'm done. I was in Texas this last weekend for vacation, so now i have some down time to work on him.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also - can one of your three battlelines be summoned?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
finally - i don't see a limitation in the Azyr roster builder for the number of hornblowers/standard bearers/seneschals in a 30 man grave guard squad.

I'm assuming it's 1 of each, but i set it to 10, and the roster still says its valid.

**auticus**

Thats because AOS is lol like that, where yes indeed all of your guys could be standard bearers if you wanted to (and in fact in a lot of cases you want them to)

Though unit champions it specifically states a single model.

**Marmatag**

auticus wrote:
Thats because AOS is lol like that, where yes indeed all of your guys could be standard bearers if you wanted to (and in fact in a lot of cases you want them to)

Though unit champions it specifically states a single model.

Got it. I'll just run 1 in each squad of 10. i'm not out to be that guy

**Moogypies**

Dire wolves are currently on the old cavalry square bases , but assuming an update to their kit comes I'd guess they'd go onto the same bases as hexwraiths/black knights.

I'm guessing they'll FAQ the banners soon due to idoneth cheese if people really want to be that guy....to be fair I've almost never seen anyone use more then one banner

**Kanluwen**

Moogypies wrote:
Dire wolves are currently on the old cavalry square bases , but assuming an update to their kit comes I'd guess they'd go onto the same bases as hexwraiths/black knights.

Dire Wolves are on the cavalry rectangles, Fenrisian Wolves are on 40mm rounds.

I'd say you're looking at the 60x35mm oval, the one used for Skitarii with Transauranic Arquebi.

I'm guessing they'll FAQ the banners soon due to idoneth cheese if people really want to be that guy....to be fair I've almost never seen anyone use more then one banner

To be fair, Idoneth "cheese" is because they don't have Banners or Musicians or Champions for Thralls and Reavers.

The effects of the Banner and Champion are rolled together into the "Icon Bearer" instead.

**Marmatag**

How many dire wolves go on a base?

What would be tournament acceptable? (Note: I will never play AoS in a real tournament, but I like to have what is considered standard, just because it avoids arguments).

Those bases also seem quite large for a wolf. Are there two wolves on the base itself?

**Kanluwen**

It would be 1 per base. They were never classified as "Swarms" or anything like that.

Fenrisian Wolves are fairly hefty models. They fill that 40mm base well.

**Marmatag**

Ugh square bases and rectangle bases suck.

**auticus**

Get yourself some rounds if you don't like the rectangles.