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I think i'll just put the wolves on their default bases. If it means i can't play in tournaments, whatever. Hopefully nobody thinks i'm trying to cheat the system by using different bases and models.

Square bases are 100% okay in AoS. Anyone giving you a hard time is actually being an asshat and trying to cheat.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Square bases are 100% okay in AoS. Anyone giving you a hard time is actually being an asshat and trying to cheat.

Sorry i'm referencing the 40mm round bases for Fenrisian Wolves. In place of Dire Wolves. So, it would be very easy to say that *I* would be the one trying to cheat, when in reality, i'm really not, and just like the Fenrisian wolves models.

Well, the book itself says the bases don’t matter. You draw the line from the models themselves. You’re still all good.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Well, the book itself says the bases don’t matter. You draw the line from the models themselves. You’re still all good.

Oh awesome, done deal! Thanks!

Lets also reveal the real real play world though.

Officially bases don't matter.

Unofficially officially they matter a lot.

Events all use base-to-base and many events even forbid squares now.

Because of that, even casual players that don't go to events will demand this in their pick up games. There's even a giant facebook tussle over forcing people to rebase older models onto the up to date bases (meaning if you had demons on 25mm bases you need to rebase them to 32 mm bases or you are "cheating").

Proceed with caution and ask around your playgroup first before committing...

 auticus wrote:
Lets also reveal the real real play world though.

Officially bases don't matter.

Unofficially officially they matter a lot.

Events all use base-to-base and many events even forbid squares now.

Because of that, even casual players that don't go to events will demand this in their pick up games. There's even a giant facebook tussle over forcing people to rebase older models onto the up to date bases (meaning if you had demons on 25mm bases you need to rebase them to 32 mm bases or you are "cheating").

Proceed with caution and ask around your playgroup first before committing...

I find that personally irritating as hell, GW officially says bases dont matter. the rules are clear, folks should not be having a hissy about it. especially when some kits give you a square base (I buy rounds for all mine out of personal preference though)

I agree with you. In my events I am very clear that you can use whatever bases came with the model and barring that as long as you aren't trying to douche out I don't care what your bases are (we do base to base contact).

But oh boy does that topic generate a lot of heat.

Strange considering that per the rules it doesn't matter and when you're houseruling does it really matter?

People that want a standard only one way to play hate houserules and hate that bases aren't standardized and get very emotional when alternate ways are being played from a standard.

My square bases must be so incredibly horrid with their CORNERS!!!!

Something something squares give an advantage something something if you use square bases then congratulations on winning because you are cheating something something.

Basically getting bent out of shape because you can get a couple more models in base contact with squares that you can't with rounds so that breaks the game entirely.

Yeah I'm going for those WAAC wins. That's why I play Dispossessed and Dwarfs. The cheesy wins.

Well as I put it in that thread and any other thread where someone says that, the only people I've met that care that much over a few mm "advantage" are usually the same people that measure their willy by their win/loss record, and I don't play with those people anyway.

THey also don't consider the disadvantages. Like plaguebearers being on 25s... they are a tank unit that can't contact as many enemy to tank on smaller bases.

I can't understand why people would play AoS competitively anyway.

Luckily the new releases have really drummed up interest out here that seems to be strictly casual/narrative. I'm seeing events pop up - single day style, like a tournament - but with a narrative focus. Hopefully it gains steam... although I haven't even assembled my stuff yet. Arkhan is still WIP.

 Marmatag wrote:
I can't understand why people would play AoS competitively anyway.

Luckily the new releases have really drummed up interest out here that seems to be strictly casual/narrative. I'm seeing events pop up - single day style, like a tournament - but with a narrative focus. Hopefully it gains steam... although I haven't even assembled my stuff yet. Arkhan is still WIP.

People will get competitive with anything, that's what we do.

On reddit a few weeks back I saw a gif of competitive tag. Honestly looked pretty fun but still.

Jacksmiles wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
I can't understand why people would play AoS competitively anyway.

Luckily the new releases have really drummed up interest out here that seems to be strictly casual/narrative. I'm seeing events pop up - single day style, like a tournament - but with a narrative focus. Hopefully it gains steam... although I haven't even assembled my stuff yet. Arkhan is still WIP.

People will get competitive with anything, that's what we do.

On reddit a few weeks back I saw a gif of competitive tag. Honestly looked pretty fun but still.

Oh for sure. Just doesn't seem like a ruleset conducive to competitive play. But that's just me. I would also say in its current state 40k isn't really conducive to high competitive play, either, yet I play that in tournaments

Agreed

I feel like my few AoS games are the most relaxing games I've played, war-gaming-wise, and I don't see it as a super competitive game - and I like that about it.

Ugh, I need to really decide on a faction. Been eyeballing building up the bloodbound from the starter, but I don't want to paint flesh. Maybe I can do bronzed bodies... or just paint the tzeentch daemons I actually own already

I've always found flesh to be fairly easy. I'll post the bloodbound I painted for Shade spire later. You're probably a better painter than me, but i'm happy with how they turned out. Base, shade, heavy dry, light dry, I do skin in like 10 minutes.

As far as picking an army goes, Khorne stuff looks amazeballs in Sigmar. They have the best looking range for just your average models, in my opinion. I chose death because their heroes look badass, but the average skeleton is vastly inferior to anything Khorne in terms of aesthetic.

Model to model measuring is possibly the most painful, anti-fun and time consuming. You have models that can rarely ever attack rank and file due to how they sit on their base vs weapon length (archaon, maw crushas, etc...) and it also penalizes modelling.

Why is it so hard to use base to base measuring?

 Skimask Mohawk wrote:
Model to model measuring is possibly the most painful, anti-fun and time consuming. You have models that can rarely ever attack rank and file due to how they sit on their base vs weapon length (archaon, maw crushas, etc...) and it also penalizes modelling.

Why is it so hard to use base to base measuring?

it was put in to make the transition easier on all us old neckbeards with warhammer armies to not have to change thousands of models to round bases.

I've never seen anyone use model to model except for the very beginning of AOS. Even with squares and rounds on the same table, base to base is preferred.

 auticus wrote:
Something something squares give an advantage something something if you use square bases then congratulations on winning because you are cheating something something.

Basically getting bent out of shape because you can get a couple more models in base contact with squares that you can't with rounds so that breaks the game entirely.

It's more to the effect of a whole extra 'rank' in places, on top of denying enemy attacks due to a smaller unit profile. Having smaller bases can actually impact a unit's effectiviness tremendously, and people would rather just say 'no round bases' than try to deal with some asshat mid game.

The people requiring round bases aren't to blame here, the people who abuse square ones are. If no one did that, no one would have a problem with them.

Although the vile TFG act offbase size abuse is done,banning square bases would kill AOS in my region. It is on life support as it is. not many players in my region are prepared to rebase there old fantasy armies.

And in the end it does not matter as long as gw does not say which model goes on which size base. otherwhise nothing is stopping anyone from taking larger/smaller bases except maybe some specific tournament rules which are not often made to "square" things out but mostly to address a couple of regional TFG's (not everywhere and always, but often IMHO )

I get that. If we had a TFG abusing squares like that I have a backup rule I put in place, which is "if you are using square bases then you have to give an extra .5 to your opponent as a form of grace mediation to compensate.

To date I have not had to implement that rule because the people in my group still using squares are not TFG and don't do that kind of thing in the first place.

We *did* have a TFG that both abused the old summoning AND modeled a lot of his models to be in the air 3" up so that most normal things that only had a 1" reach or even a 2" reach couldn't ever target his models, but he was removed from the group.

we still here (and we are a tiny,tiny group who game together often) use model to model. but yeah like others have said, this game is on life support and virtually any little thing could kill it. GW here is model to model RAW. As overall unpopular as the game is I am worried about too much houseruling driving what few players we can get away.

Regardless of what I said earlier about it not mattering for he base and “model to model”, my group measures from the base. I haven’t seen any abuse on bases though. And I updated SOME of my daemons to 32mm bases, but some are staying 25mm; Bloodletters and Plaguebearers are on 32mm, Horrors and Daemonettes are on 25mm. That just “feels” appropriate to me. If someone called me a donkey-cave because I only rebased BLs and PBs and not the other two lessers, I’d probably laugh at them. MAYBE an argument could be made for the Horrors to switch up. But daemonettes? No way. Then again, I prefer the way two banners look in a unit vs one banner. And that seems to ruffle some feathers on here, from what I’ve seen. So what do I know? Lol

Will have Arkhan painted up this week. He's really turning out actually fairly decent by my painting standards.

Also, I did some math. Curse of Years is not that impressive.

Essentially it is a slightly better arcane bolt on average (2.5 mortal wounds against big targets), and does a flat-out fatality about 1.4% of the time (against big targets).

Details below.
int CurseOfYearsSingleDice(ref Random dice, int maxSides, int mortal_wounds, int max_wounds){ if ( maxSides == 1) { return max_wounds; } if ( dice.Next(1, maxSides+1) >= maxSides ){ return CurseOfYearsSingleDice(ref dice, maxSides-1, 1+mortal_wounds, max_wounds); } return mortal_wounds; } int CalculateCurseOfYears(ref Random dice, int max_wounds) { int mortal_wounds = 0; int max_sides = 6; for( int x = 0; x < 10; x++) { mortal_wounds += CurseOfYearsSingleDice(ref dice, max_sides, 0, max_wounds); if( mortal_wounds >= max_wounds ) { break; } } return Math.Min(mortal_wounds, max_wounds); } DateTime start = DateTime.Now; int total_dmg = 0; int max_trials = 1000000; int fatalities = 0; int max_wounds = 30; Random dice = new Random(DateTime.Now.Millisecond); for (int count = 0; count < max_trials; count++) { int dmg = CalculateCurseOfYears(ref dice, max_wounds); total_dmg += dmg; if ( dmg >= max_wounds) { fatalities++; } } DateTime stop = DateTime.Now; Console.WriteLine("Average Damage: " + (double)total_dmg/(double)max_trials); Console.WriteLine("Fatality Percentage: " + (double)100*(double)fatalities/(double)max_trials+"%"); Console.WriteLine("Computation Time: " + (stop - start).Milliseconds + " milliseconds");

Output: Average Damage: 2.446083 Fatality Percentage: 1.3926% Computation Time: 469 milliseconds

Paste this into https://csharppad.com if you want to tweak it.

I have a tool that does all of that, its how I came up with the azyr comp point values

 auticus wrote:
I have a tool that does all of that, its how I came up with the azyr comp point values

Neat!

Any limitations you're running into? I wouldn't mind collaborating on a project to scale things. Can make it as a web page, to help determine if two casual lists are in the same ball park in terms of overall effectiveness. I'll do all of the programming, and I can host it, too.

I was looking at my friend's upcoming list. He's got these guys - I think Retributors - that just by existing can deal 2D3 mortal wounds per turn. In fact I think everything in his list can deal mortal wounds.

Good thing i've got all these skeletons...

Also, any suggestions for a campaign with 2-4 people? There are a few of us... thinking of making a small story. There wouldn't be any focus on competitive, but would be focused more on thematic battles.