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Bharring wrote: Yeah, I can see that. So I'll remain a little bummed. Less bummed than I'd be if Warlocks were at Libby/Sorc level in stats. And we certainly don't need more inflation.
Well if it makes you feel better, as a 1kson player I also suffer from the 2 wound mini-caster plight. And even worse, a one wound mini-caster that will take out his own squad on a peril. The derp is real.
Bharring wrote: Warlocks are also Space Elves, and Sorcs/Libbys are Space Ubermensch.
For wounds, I'd think Primaris Psykers are the more apt comparison, although Warlocks are a little tougher (Warlocks have all previously been Aspect Warriors, and are much better equipped).
With Libbys at 3, it's hard for Warlocks to go up to 3.
It's pretty hard to justify any unit by comparing it to it's marine counterpart. Unless it's a storm raven.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Bharring wrote: Yeah, I can see that. So I'll remain a little bummed. Less bummed than I'd be if Warlocks were at Libby/Sorc level in stats. And we certainly don't need more inflation.
Well if it makes you feel better, as a 1kson player I also suffer from the 2 wound mini-caster plight. And even worse, a one wound mini-caster that will take out his own squad on a peril. The derp is real.
Tsons shouldn't perils - period.
Nor should Daemons, but we get what we get.
Well, Daemons are malicious even to each other and when a Daemon is in the real world, they need power from the warp to sustain their form. From that perspective, you can easily assume that a Perils result is either another Daemon lashing out at a rival, or the Daemon's tether to the warp weakening thus resulting in them being banished back to the warp
I've never understood the "Daemons should be immune to Perils" arguement
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/24 17:35:33
Bharring wrote: Yeah, I can see that. So I'll remain a little bummed. Less bummed than I'd be if Warlocks were at Libby/Sorc level in stats. And we certainly don't need more inflation.
Well if it makes you feel better, as a 1kson player I also suffer from the 2 wound mini-caster plight. And even worse, a one wound mini-caster that will take out his own squad on a peril. The derp is real.
Tsons shouldn't perils - period.
Nor should Daemons, but we get what we get.
Well, Daemons are malicious even to each other and when a Daemon is in the real world, they need power from the warp to sustain their form.
From that perspective, you can easily assume that a Perils result is either another Daemon lashing out at a rival, or the Daemon's tether to the warp weakening thus resulting in them being banished back to the warp
I've never understood the "Daemons should be immune to Perils" arguement
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It makes as much sense as "Tsons should be immune to perils"
It makes sense to me that especially skilled psychic daemonic armies should be immune to the energies they practically live in.
Only imperial/eldar psykers should perils IMO. GK/inquisitors should also be immune - the are specially trained to harness the warp/fight warp beings.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/04/24 17:57:03
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
The point being that the CHANCE is there no matter how skilled/innately psychic/connected to the warp they are. It is possible. No single being, save maybe the Emprah himself, is truly "immune" to the negative affect of the warp. Unless no connection to the warp exists, such as blanks that have zero psychic powers to begin with.
Galef wrote: The point being that the CHANCE is there no matter how skilled/innately psychic/connected to the warp they are. It is possible. No single being, save maybe the Emprah himself, is truly "immune" to the negative affect of the warp. Unless no connection to the warp exists, such as blanks that have zero psychic powers to begin with.
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So why does Bob, an untrained Rogue Psyker from a planet somewhere, have exactly the same "chance" of this happening as Aetaos'Rau'Kheres, the Slayer of Souls, the world-burner whose mastery of fate is second only to that of Tzeench and who is driven mad by this very fact?
Galef wrote: The point being that the CHANCE is there no matter how skilled/innately psychic/connected to the warp they are. It is possible. No single being, save maybe the Emprah himself, is truly "immune" to the negative affect of the warp. Unless no connection to the warp exists, such as blanks that have zero psychic powers to begin with.
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So why does Bob, an untrained Rogue Psyker from a planet somewhere, have exactly the same "chance" of this happening as Aetaos'Rau'Kheres, the Slayer of Souls, the world-burner whose mastery of fate is second only to that of Tzeench and who is driven mad by this very fact?
Because if they made a mechanic for it being different people would whine endlessly. I should place my opponents models because my army knows the future but that isn't a thing because it's a dumb idea.
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
Galef wrote: The point being that the CHANCE is there no matter how skilled/innately psychic/connected to the warp they are. It is possible. No single being, save maybe the Emprah himself, is truly "immune" to the negative affect of the warp. Unless no connection to the warp exists, such as blanks that have zero psychic powers to begin with.
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So why does Bob, an untrained Rogue Psyker from a planet somewhere, have exactly the same "chance" of this happening as Aetaos'Rau'Kheres, the Slayer of Souls, the world-burner whose mastery of fate is second only to that of Tzeench and who is driven mad by this very fact?
Because if they made a mechanic for it being different people would whine endlessly. I should place my opponents models because my army knows the future but that isn't a thing because it's a dumb idea.
You're right, no mechanic should be different.
We should take Grinding Advance away from Leman Russes, Power of the Machine Spirit away from Land Raiders - hey, while we're at it, let's just take away faction rules, too. After all, it's a mechanic for being different and we don't want those because people whine endlessly!
Galef wrote: The point being that the CHANCE is there no matter how skilled/innately psychic/connected to the warp they are. It is possible. No single being, save maybe the Emprah himself, is truly "immune" to the negative affect of the warp. Unless no connection to the warp exists, such as blanks that have zero psychic powers to begin with.
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So why does Bob, an untrained Rogue Psyker from a planet somewhere, have exactly the same "chance" of this happening as Aetaos'Rau'Kheres, the Slayer of Souls, the world-burner whose mastery of fate is second only to that of Tzeench and who is driven mad by this very fact?
Because if they made a mechanic for it being different people would whine endlessly. I should place my opponents models because my army knows the future but that isn't a thing because it's a dumb idea.
You're right, no mechanic should be different.
We should take Grinding Advance away from Leman Russes, Power of the Machine Spirit away from Land Raiders - hey, while we're at it, let's just take away faction rules, too. After all, it's a mechanic for being different and we don't want those because people whine endlessly!
That's different. There's having different rules for things that have meaning and having different rules that are just bloat. Or maybe I imagined when people complained about things like Poison and Fleshbane in 7th.
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
pm713 wrote: That's different. There's having different rules for things that have meaning and having different rules that are just bloat. Or maybe I imagined when people complained about things like Poison and Fleshbane in 7th.
Ah yes, Power of the Machine Spirit making Land Raiders immune to the -1 penalty is SOOOOOOOOOOOO different than "Denizen of the Warp" making Daemons immune to perils. Such hard to remember. Much brain-hurt.
Heck, I can barely remember that Leman Russes ignore the -1 to hit too, but only on one gun, but they move half speed that gun can fire twice. Unless they're Tallarn, then they ignore the -1 on all the guns, and can move 11 inches in a turn, but some in the shooting phase, if there is a Tank Commander around. That's nice and simple, though.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/24 18:40:55
Xenomancers wrote: It makes sense to me that especially skilled psychic daemonic armies should be immune to the energies they practically live in.
Only imperial/eldar psykers should perils IMO. GK/inquisitors should also be immune - the are specially trained to harness the warp/fight warp beings.
I suspect you're the only one that this makes sense to, then, if you think someone like Eldrad should have a chance to peril but not some newbie Inquisitor because of their "special training."
That's not at all what I was against. What I was against was a rule for Chaos Marine psykers. Another for Tzeentch Marines. Another for Eldar. Another for Eldar around Dark Eldar. Another for Daemons. Another for Tzeentch Daemons. Another for Marines. Another for Marines who are Renegades. Another for Marines who worship the Emperor. Another for Guard. Another for Guard near Sisters of Silence. Another for Harlequins. And so on.
Or just a constant Perils that's the same for everybody.
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
pm713 wrote: That's not at all what I was against. What I was against was a rule for Chaos Marine psykers. Another for Tzeentch Marines. Another for Eldar. Another for Eldar around Dark Eldar. Another for Daemons. Another for Tzeentch Daemons. Another for Marines. Another for Marines who are Renegades. Another for Marines who worship the Emperor. Another for Guard. Another for Guard near Sisters of Silence. Another for Harlequins. And so on.
Or just a constant Perils that's the same for everybody.
Oh. I am just saying "if you make someone immune/resistant to perils, then Daemons makes the most sense to be that someone before anyone else."
pm713 wrote: That's not at all what I was against. What I was against was a rule for Chaos Marine psykers. Another for Tzeentch Marines. Another for Eldar. Another for Eldar around Dark Eldar. Another for Daemons. Another for Tzeentch Daemons. Another for Marines. Another for Marines who are Renegades. Another for Marines who worship the Emperor. Another for Guard. Another for Guard near Sisters of Silence. Another for Harlequins. And so on.
Or just a constant Perils that's the same for everybody.
Oh. I am just saying "if you make someone immune/resistant to perils, then Daemons makes the most sense to be that someone before anyone else."
pm713 wrote: That's not at all what I was against. What I was against was a rule for Chaos Marine psykers. Another for Tzeentch Marines. Another for Eldar. Another for Eldar around Dark Eldar. Another for Daemons. Another for Tzeentch Daemons. Another for Marines. Another for Marines who are Renegades. Another for Marines who worship the Emperor. Another for Guard. Another for Guard near Sisters of Silence. Another for Harlequins. And so on.
Or just a constant Perils that's the same for everybody.
Oh. I am just saying "if you make someone immune/resistant to perils, then Daemons makes the most sense to be that someone before anyone else."
Why?
Because that's like me suffering "Perils of My House" every time I tried to do something away from home? Or even if I do something in my own home?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/24 18:50:50
Actually it would be more like someone trying to strangle you in your own home. This isn't fish drowning or something like that. This is the warp is a dangerous place for everybody.
pm713 wrote: That's not at all what I was against. What I was against was a rule for Chaos Marine psykers. Another for Tzeentch Marines. Another for Eldar. Another for Eldar around Dark Eldar. Another for Daemons. Another for Tzeentch Daemons. Another for Marines. Another for Marines who are Renegades. Another for Marines who worship the Emperor. Another for Guard. Another for Guard near Sisters of Silence. Another for Harlequins. And so on.
Or just a constant Perils that's the same for everybody.
Oh. I am just saying "if you make someone immune/resistant to perils, then Daemons makes the most sense to be that someone before anyone else."
Why?
Because that's like me suffering "Perils of My House" every time I tried to do something away from home? Or even if I do something in my own home?
One faction having a rule isn't that bad. Personally I think it's the start of a slippery slope but I don't play 8th so eh.
The issue with giving it to a faction is which one? Demons live in the Warp but also have lots of rivals and enemies to try and mess up their casting. Eldar train endlessly to avoid mishaps but are also the number 1 target for Slaaneshi demons. You can probably do that for every faction. Except Orks who are just a bit crazy.
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
Crimson Devil wrote: Actually it would be more like someone trying to strangle you in your own home. This isn't fish drowning or something like that. This is the warp is a dangerous place for everybody.
Presumably, it would be literally unlivable to sentient life forms if mere existence killed you 1/18th of the time...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/24 19:08:18
pm713 wrote: One faction having a rule isn't that bad. Personally I think it's the start of a slippery slope but I don't play 8th so eh.
The issue with giving it to a faction is which one? Demons live in the Warp but also have lots of rivals and enemies to try and mess up their casting. Eldar train endlessly to avoid mishaps but are also the number 1 target for Slaaneshi demons. You can probably do that for every faction. Except Orks who are just a bit crazy.
Exactly. It is the same as Moral. If factions X, Y and Z have immunity to Morale, why both even having it in the game at all?
Perils of the Warp is the same. You can include it and it actually matter, or you can ditch it.
Several factions have a reason to suffer less from Perils, but if we gave it to all, Perils would be worthless as a game mechanic. If we gave it to some, than others that didn't would complain
Eldar weapons and mechanisms are often operated via psyker power. It's just not a significant draw / substantial working.
In the same way, a DP of Nurgle uses the Warp to stand there. But it's not as significant / substantial as when the DP of Nurgle manifests the gifts of Papa upon the soon-to-be-inducted-to-the-family hordes around him.
Doing so would require invoking more of the Warp than just standing there, and in a different way, in theory.
I'd agree that if any faction were immune, Demons would probably be it.
But if there's a second faction?
Certainly not CSM. Sorcs go boom when they screw up a spell is a central tennent of their fluff. *Especially* 1ksons fluff.
Probably not Eldar. Warlocks and Farseers are always tempting fate when they try to do anything too big.
Probably not GK, as some random neophyte isn't nearly as trained or experienced in handling the Warp as an Eldar psyker.
Maybe IG. Just so there'd be more stuff for people to complain about them on the forums.
Back to the topic at hand, I'd love for Perils to not be so much more deadly to a Warlock than a Chaos Sorcerer. And the 1ksons pskyer probably should also not be more vulnerable to it than that Sorc. But the rules don't make it easy to make that happen, and still be fair.
I'd like a fix, but just bumping Warlocks to 3w is kinda an insult to Libbys.
No-one should be immune to perils, it's a key mechanic of the game.
Not sure what this has to do with the Warlock nerf but to be fair the topic seemed to devolve into a echo chamber of remembering the "good old days" when Warlocks were absolute beasts in 2nd ed. I played Eldar back then, they were decent.
On topic for Warlocks and Perils: Having only 2 wounds and thus an increased ability to die from a single Perils is actually fluffy because Warlocks have only just started the Path of the Seer. I think the main issue is that the points increase is a bit much, especially compared to a Spiritseer that is only 10ppm more. If anything, the Spiritseet should be close to twice the cost of a character Warlock and certainly more than a minimum Conclave. So if a Spritseer is 65ppm, Warlocks should be 35ppm and a 2 Warlock conclave should be 60pts (30ppm). So, basically the points they used to be pre-FAQ
Side note: To recall Xenos example of Bob the Rogue Psyker vs Aetaos'Rau'Kheres, in that regard there is more Perils protection since Bob the psyker would die to a single Perils, but Aetaos'Rau'Kheres only takes D3 wounds. It would take many, many Perils for Aetaos'Rau'Kheres to die, thus he has more Perils protection
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/24 21:11:48
Would this be a bad time to mention that farseers ignore mortal wounds from perils on a 2+ thanks to their ghosthelms?
I really liked reading about second ed warlocks. I started eldar in late third, and the disconnect between the fluff power level of seers and locks and their tabletop performance always puzzled me. Now I know.
Relevant to the op:
Jetbike warlocks didn't go up, and were already the only way a warlock saw the battlefield (one, accompanying my farseer). While unjustified, I don't think their price hike actually changed much. You can't see less play than "never".
shortymcnostrill wrote: Would this be a bad time to mention that farseers ignore mortal wounds from perils on a 2+ thanks to their ghosthelms?
I really liked reading about second ed warlocks. I started eldar in late third, and the disconnect between the fluff power level of seers and locks and their tabletop performance always puzzled me. Now I know.
Relevant to the op:
Jetbike warlocks didn't go up, and were already the only way a warlock saw the battlefield (one, accompanying my farseer). While unjustified, I don't think their price hike actually changed much. You can't see less play than "never".
You certainly can, and I wish Warlocks and Spiritseers both had a toned down version of the Ghosthelm as they all gain runes and special combat gear to help protect them from he vageries of the warp. I've also lost a Farseer to perils even with that 2+++.
Crimson Devil wrote: Actually it would be more like someone trying to strangle you in your own home. This isn't fish drowning or something like that. This is the warp is a dangerous place for everybody.
Presumably, it would be literally unlivable to sentient life forms if mere existence killed you 1/18th of the time...
The Warp is like Darkness. It's not the Warp/Darkness you need to be afraid of, it's what's in it.
Look at this way. For a Daemon, It's not the warp causing the perils. It's a rival dicking them over while they're vulnerable.
On 1K Suns, as a not 1KSuns player, I'd be fine with the squad sorcerers suffering perils as normal, but it doesn't carry over to anyone. Not their squad, not the enemy, not that beastmen unit right next to them.
On the original topic. I agree with most of the posters who have been saying 55 for 2W is too much. Either make the caster cheaper, or buff it to be worth those points.
Honestly, make them battle psykers like they are in the fluff. Give them a few more attacks, an extra wound, something like that. Let them kick butt for the craftworld.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/25 09:45:00
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