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 Crimson wrote:
I think the range of the shuriken catapults is the main reason why the Eldar are a dying race.

love it

 koooaei wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I think the range of the shuriken catapults is the main reason why the Eldar are a dying race.

love it

It's a fair point.

Honestly though, the weirder thing for me is that Eldar always fight their battles personally. I'd have thought - especially as a dying race - they'd make far heavier use of machines, mercenaries or allies to do most of the fighting for them - perhaps with just a handful of actual Eldar to direct the battle.

 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I think the range of the shuriken catapults is the main reason why the Eldar are a dying race.

love it

It's a fair point.

Honestly though, the weirder thing for me is that Eldar always fight their battles personally. I'd have thought - especially as a dying race - they'd make far heavier use of machines, mercenaries or allies to do most of the fighting for them - perhaps with just a handful of actual Eldar to direct the battle.

That's exactly the kind of thing that lead to the Fall. Using machines just created Slaanesh and using mercenaries isn't really something you get on the tabletop. That would be represented by something like Tau V Guard.

 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I think the range of the shuriken catapults is the main reason why the Eldar are a dying race.

love it

It's a fair point.

Honestly though, the weirder thing for me is that Eldar always fight their battles personally. I'd have thought - especially as a dying race - they'd make far heavier use of machines, mercenaries or allies to do most of the fighting for them - perhaps with just a handful of actual Eldar to direct the battle.

They don't always fight personally. The craftworld seers subtly manipulate other races years in advance so that when the time for a battle comes it is eg the imperial guard fighting those daemons that otherwise the eldar would need to fight. They pull the strings of fate so that eldar fight as few battles as possible.

As far as I'm concerned, any battle my CWE fight in is a battle they've already lost. The tabletop just decides how badly they lost.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:
Actually it would be more like someone trying to strangle you in your own home. This isn't fish drowning or something like that. This is the warp is a dangerous place for everybody.

Presumably, it would be literally unlivable to sentient life forms if mere existence killed you 1/18th of the time...

The Warp is like Darkness. It's not the Warp/Darkness you need to be afraid of, it's what's in it.

Look at this way. For a Daemon, It's not the warp causing the perils. It's a rival dicking them over while they're vulnerable.

Yeah but why wait till they cast a power? It's like a hitman hired to kill me in my house, but he can't actually do anything until I wash dishes or something. If they want to represent rival daemons attacking daemons in the warp... then just fight a daemons vs daemons battle on a warp-themed table.

They literally live there. Where there are daemons, the warp is bleeding into realspace. If a Daemon casts a psychic power, it's just manipulating that stuff. If a rival daemon wants to feth with them, why not just walk up and boop them? Perils of the Warp doesn't make sense, because warp daemons fight in the warp, or at worst, with one foot in the warp and one foot in reality. One could literally 'see' the warp predator wandering over to bash them on the head with a brick (or whatever perils is).

So instead of "put an unaligned Fury model in close combat with the Greater Exalted Most High Daemon of All who can control the Fury just by sheer force of will (?!?)", they should just be immune to perils.

The tabletop is normally fought with the assumption that the warp is "some other place" and the predators in that other place eat you when you do stuff in "this place". Chaos Daemons, when they go to war, literally put "that other place" right here, right now. So a predator from "That other place" that's coming to hit them with a brick? Well, they're here, now. Because the border between reality and the warp doesn't exist here, and you can see and presumably avoid those predators, the way any daemon might (assuming the Chaos God's lands are not totally overrun by angry warp predators/rivals).

The 'rival demon' is stuck in the warp.

It'd be like a hitman waiting for you to be preoccupied with something you're doing, instead of coming at you while you're looking around for something to do.

I could totally see rules pairing Demons themselves to Perils somehow, but not exempting CSM from Perils. But how complicated do we want the rules?

Bharring wrote:
But how complicated do we want the rules?

This is exactly why I am 100% ok with everyone suffering Perils and it just doing mortal wounds.
It keeps the rules simple and as we have seen, you can justify ANY psyker being affected by Perils

Even if you are unhappy that your big-mama-jama Daemon can suffer from Perils when they should be the ultimate psychic force in the galaxy, remember that 8th is still an improvement from 7th in which there was still a slim chance that your model could get sucked into the warp if you rolled a 1 on the Perils chart.
Taking D3 mortal wounds is not that big a deal for a model that starts with over a dozen wounds

-

Bharring wrote:
The 'rival demon' is stuck in the warp.

It'd be like a hitman waiting for you to be preoccupied with something you're doing, instead of coming at you while you're looking around for something to do.

I could totally see rules pairing Demons themselves to Perils somehow, but not exempting CSM from Perils. But how complicated do we want the rules?

I'm fine with them suffering Perils. I'm just making an argument why "if any army should be immune to Perils it's daemons." I'm not advocating a rules change, just illustrating why it's silly to say "<Insert Army X> should be immune to perils!" unless said army is daemons.

And "stuck in the warp" has no meaning, because the warp is here. It's like the hitman standing in my house - because I live there, I can see him, and possibly fight him off. Even if he catches me doing dishes/whatever. Presumably, daemons in the warp constantly have to deal with warp predators (even when they're doing other things, including fighting huge wars), and they somehow manage just fine.

Oh, I totally agree that, if any army were to be immune, it should be Demons. I think we're fully on the same page.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

I'm fine with them suffering Perils. I'm just making an argument why "if any army should be immune to Perils it's daemons." I'm not advocating a rules change, just illustrating why it's silly to say "<Insert Army X> should be immune to perils!" unless said army is daemons.

And "stuck in the warp" has no meaning, because the warp is here. It's like the hitman standing in my house - because I live there, I can see him, and possibly fight him off. Even if he catches me doing dishes/whatever. Presumably, daemons in the warp constantly have to deal with warp predators (even when they're doing other things, including fighting huge wars), and they somehow manage just fine.

Overall I disagree as Daemons in real space can easily fall victim to rival Daemons that are still in the Warp.

However, this is how Daemons functioned back in 5th. No Daemon had psychic powers at all, not even Tzeentch, and therefore Perils was not a possibility.
"Psychic powers" were instead expressed as regular shooting attacks and auras.
If GW were to make Daemons "immune to Perils" again, I would hope they would do it in this manner.

-

Bharring wrote:Oh, I totally agree that, if any army were to be immune, it should be Demons. I think we're fully on the same page.

Yeah I think so.

Galef wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

I'm fine with them suffering Perils. I'm just making an argument why "if any army should be immune to Perils it's daemons." I'm not advocating a rules change, just illustrating why it's silly to say "<Insert Army X> should be immune to perils!" unless said army is daemons.

And "stuck in the warp" has no meaning, because the warp is here. It's like the hitman standing in my house - because I live there, I can see him, and possibly fight him off. Even if he catches me doing dishes/whatever. Presumably, daemons in the warp constantly have to deal with warp predators (even when they're doing other things, including fighting huge wars), and they somehow manage just fine.

Overall I disagree as Daemons in real space can easily fall victim to rival Daemons that are still in the Warp.

However, this is how Daemons functioned back in 5th. No Daemon had psychic powers at all, not even Tzeentch, and therefore Perils was not a possibility.
"Psychic powers" were instead expressed as regular shooting attacks and auras.
If GW were to make Daemons "immune to Perils" again, I would hope they would do it in this manner.

-

I agree! But I don't think it's necessary. As I've mentioned, I think it's fine the way it is. I merely sought to illustrate why "Army X should be immune to perils" is an awful, atrocious claim unless "Army X" is daemons.

Talk about a complete thread hijack...

HuskyWarhammer wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
It makes sense to me that especially skilled psychic daemonic armies should be immune to the energies they practically live in.

Only imperial/eldar psykers should perils IMO. GK/inquisitors should also be immune - the are specially trained to harness the warp/fight warp beings.

I suspect you're the only one that this makes sense to, then, if you think someone like Eldrad should have a chance to peril but not some newbie Inquisitor because of their "special training."

You do realize that the eldar practically destroyed themselves and created a chaos god with their misuse of their psychic energies? They should be the most likely to perils. They protect themselves with runes and stones which is game terms make them practically immune to perils. That's fine with me - that is cool and fluffy. They should not be immune though.

Can we just agree that "Warlocks should be no *more* immune than Tzeechian Demon Princes" and move on?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
After all, if the Emprah can peril just because a call from his son distracted him, and tear a hole in the Materium on earth, do we really need to discuss why $faction should be immune from Peril-ing?

It was never about warlocks - it was about thousand sons sorcerers. They have it even worse than warlocks do. They perils and they bring down their whole squad with them. It's fething dumb.

Maybe we just need to remove the silly when pskyers die of perils they destroy units nearby them.

"It was never about warlocks" in the thread about the Warlock nerf?

 Xenomancers wrote:
It was never about warlocks - it was about thousand sons sorcerers. They have it even worse than warlocks do. They perils and they bring down their whole squad with them. It's fething dumb.

Maybe we just need to remove the silly when pskyers die of perils they destroy units nearby them.

Start a new thread that discusses perils if you want to talk that nonsense. This thread needs locked...

Well, we've been talking about 'locks since the OP started the thread!

 mokoshkana wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
It was never about warlocks - it was about thousand sons sorcerers. They have it even worse than warlocks do. They perils and they bring down their whole squad with them. It's fething dumb.

Maybe we just need to remove the silly when pskyers die of perils they destroy units nearby them.

Start a new thread that discusses perils if you want to talk that nonsense. This thread needs locked...

Is this discussion hurting you in some way? Warlocks are a low wound psyker - they share issues with other low wound psykers. It is relevant. Thank you for being forum police though. It adds a lot of value to the discussion.l

 Xenomancers wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
It was never about warlocks - it was about thousand sons sorcerers. They have it even worse than warlocks do. They perils and they bring down their whole squad with them. It's fething dumb.

Maybe we just need to remove the silly when pskyers die of perils they destroy units nearby them.

Start a new thread that discusses perils if you want to talk that nonsense. This thread needs locked...

Is this discussion hurting you in some way? Warlocks are a low wound psyker - they share issues with other low wound psykers. It is relevant. Thank you for being forum police though. It adds a lot of value to the discussion.l

Oh, my mistake. I completely missed the part where Tsons, Demons, and CSM all got Warlocks...

It would be relevant if accurate. It's incorrect on it's face - this topic was *clearly* about warlocks. Claiming it was never about them is just wacky.

If the price spike is about 2 powers, I'll gladly exchange 2 powers for 1 power but cheaper. I don't need buffs if I run MSU list or reveal if I just want a bufflock to sit near Reapers all game and throw conceal on them.

Warlocks can only manifest one power per round. The "But it knows two powers" feels like just a minor boon. The powers themselves are powerful, and have higher-than-average WCs.

I doubt the duality is what made them bump the points so much.

Most other psykers can cast their 'main' power or Smite. Most other mini-smite warlocks aren't impacted by the Smite nerf. Warlocks have mini-smite, but don't ignore the Smite nerf.

Warlocks were bumped up because they feature in most (all?) top Aeldari competitive lists because they give you access to the Seer Council stratagem.

They are almost a tax for that single stratagem.

The fact that they're effected by the smite nerf and that they don't cast full smite aren't too important I don't think and are a trap. You aren't taking a Warlock to smite anything, you take them for the buffs. Same with the Spiritseer really, the guy I play against most often runs Craftworld and he rarely, if ever, uses Smite. Their powers are just too boss.

Which is how it should be. What I meant about Smite, is that most psykers have 2+ powers.

In your games against Warlocks, how often is the ability to pick Conceal or Reveal (or any other pairing) a huge deal?

Runes of Battle powers are amazing. I really think that's why they should have gone up in points (although maybe not that much).

Warlocks were bumped up because they feature in most (all?) top Aeldari competitive lists because they give you access to the Seer Council stratagem.

They feature in competetive lists to buff the hell out of ynnari deathstars and for all the tacti-cool options you get (or rather, had) with Quicken.

What if I play MSU or just want to add a specialist detachment to my now ever-played-cause-elites-didn't-have-enough-CP battalion and need a cheap lieutenant? I now have to pay for one same amount as a small squad of troops. What if I want something else than a psyker? Run multiple autarches with glaves? We don't even have a customizable Autarch miniature. Meh.

I'm still not sure what you mean about Smite and other psykers having 2+ powers. Those with more powers cost more I think?

The duality of powers is nice and it's unique. Instead of having only 6 powers to choose from Craftworld psykers have 12 and can take 2 for 1. Is it a huge deal? I don't think so. But it can certainly make the difference in certain situations.

I think they should be 50 pts. Conclave Warlocks should be 40 or even 35 pts and Spiritseers should be 70 - 75 pts imo. It's a real shame that Conclaves are so badly costed. They need to be way cheaper to be worthwhile, or they need another bonus to account for the loss of character protection.

 Shadenuat wrote:
They feature in competetive lists to buff the hell out of ynnari deathstars and for all the tacti-cool options you get (or rather, had) with Quicken.

As well as Seer Council yea. Either way if a unit consistently features in the top lists of a faction it often gets a point increase.

I'm refering to the claim that Warlocks are too good because they have "two powers", such as Conceal and Reveal. I too think it's nice and unique, but not a huge deal. In part because all psykers have at least 2 powers, and warlocks get an extra one, but the 'freebe' everyone gets (smite) is weaker for them.

(I'm glad it's weaker for them.)

 Xenomancers wrote:

HuskyWarhammer wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
It makes sense to me that especially skilled psychic daemonic armies should be immune to the energies they practically live in.

Only imperial/eldar psykers should perils IMO. GK/inquisitors should also be immune - the are specially trained to harness the warp/fight warp beings.

I suspect you're the only one that this makes sense to, then, if you think someone like Eldrad should have a chance to peril but not some newbie Inquisitor because of their "special training."

You do realize that the eldar practically destroyed themselves and created a chaos god with their misuse of their psychic energies? They should be the most likely to perils. They protect themselves with runes and stones which is game terms make them practically immune to perils. That's fine with me - that is cool and fluffy. They should not be immune though.

Now they have their whole society around avoiding that. Chaos is the most self destructive force ever. They shouldn't be immune either. See how easy it is to do that?