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Caederes wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
What are you on about, I agree with you the Castellan is better. In CC the Valiant is better though and it would chew through any other super heavy in CC with ease, in CC doesn't do as much total damage as the Castellan does but it consistently would do more damage on average, as you are rolling D6's to see what attacks you get and rolling D3's to see what damage you are doing etc. which can end up in very low output, whereas the Valiant does a solid 10 damage per unsaved wound and an extra d3 mortal wounds for every unsaved wound. For its points its a gak infantry killer, you can do more with less points, its best use is for killing big game in CC.

Huh? I actually have no idea what you're trying to say. How is the Valiant better in close combat? Both are WS4+ with the same Strength, Attacks and melee weapon (Titanic Feet). The Castellan and Valiant are thus entirely equal in close combat. However, the Castellan outshoots the Valiant against any form of vehicle/monster/big target that doesn't impose negative to-hit modifiers - and it probably still wins out against some of those, depending on what specific unit it is. Are you trying to say the Harpoon is a close combat weapon? It isn't. Facts are the Castellan is the better titan-killer and both I and others have shown maths to prove that.

How on earth are they equal in in CC... They don't have the same strength or melee weapons.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
How on earth are they equal in in CC... They don't have the same strength or melee weapons.

Ok, I'm actually not sure if you're trolling or not.
Go and check their profiles. The Castellan and Valiant have identical profiles, the only differences between the two are the arm-mounted guns. The only close combat weapon that either of them has is Titanic Feet.

I see what Delv is trying to say, but he has been misinformed of something.

The harpoon is a 12" shot, not a melee weapon.

That should fix it.

Caederes wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
How on earth are they equal in in CC... They don't have the same strength or melee weapons.

Ok, I'm actually not sure if you're trolling or not.
Go and check their profiles. The Castellan and Valiant have identical profiles, the only differences between the two are the arm-mounted guns. The only close combat weapon that either of them has is Titanic Feet.

Whoops, my bad, I thought that harpoon was a CC weapon, only heave 1 at 12", okay the Valiant sucks now.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Caederes wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
How on earth are they equal in in CC... They don't have the same strength or melee weapons.

Ok, I'm actually not sure if you're trolling or not.
Go and check their profiles. The Castellan and Valiant have identical profiles, the only differences between the two are the arm-mounted guns. The only close combat weapon that either of them has is Titanic Feet.

Whoops, my bad, I thought that harpoon was a CC weapon, only heave 1 at 12", okay the Valiant sucks now.

It does have a native re-roll to hit when targeting monsters/vehicles, which are obviously its intended targets. But man, don't underestimate that flamer and the ability to effectively say "NO" to 95% of melee units in the game.

 niv-mizzet wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Caederes wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
How on earth are they equal in in CC... They don't have the same strength or melee weapons.

Ok, I'm actually not sure if you're trolling or not.
Go and check their profiles. The Castellan and Valiant have identical profiles, the only differences between the two are the arm-mounted guns. The only close combat weapon that either of them has is Titanic Feet.

Whoops, my bad, I thought that harpoon was a CC weapon, only heave 1 at 12", okay the Valiant sucks now.

It does have a native re-roll to hit when targeting monsters/vehicles, which are obviously its intended targets. But man, don't underestimate that flamer and the ability to effectively say "NO" to 95% of melee units in the game.

Like I said earlier the Acheron does just as good a job, (better on damage but less in output) and its way cheaper, plus it has extra movement 14" which is really crucial for a flamer weapon. plus it's great in CC, plus it gets the 5+ regain wound dealy.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Neither, they are going to be over costed. Shadow sword, 200 points less, just as survivable, and can one shot a knight with ease.

So one thing in the game may or may not be slightly more effective - ergo a new unit has no place in anyone's army anywhere?

K.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Neither, they are going to be over costed. Shadow sword, 200 points less, just as survivable, and can one shot a knight with ease.

So one thing in the game may or may not be slightly more effective - ergo a new unit has no place in anyone's army anywhere?

K.

Yup, The Dominus' might not have the same firepower, but they are very versatile, tonnes of weapons, a weapon for every mood. I'm definitely going to get one. Those shieldbreaker missiles are going to be groovy.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
[

What are you on about, I already agree with you, the Castellan is better. In CC the Valiant is better though and it would chew through any other super heavy in CC with ease, in CC doesn't do as much total damage as the Castellan does but it consistently would do more damage on average, as with the Castellan you are rolling D6's to see what attacks you get and rolling D3's to see what damage you are doing etc. which can end up in very low output, whereas the Valiant does a solid 10 damage per unsaved wound and an extra d3 mortal wounds for every unsaved wound. Whatever you are going after in CC this will most likely kill it, For its points its a gak infantry killer, you can do more with less points, its best use is for killing big game in CC.

You: The valiant is much better against other super heavies

You claim the flamer/harpoon variant is better against other super heavies.

Ummm no. He's worse. Less damage. At shorter range. Less damage is not better. Even when you are in range(which you always are) CASTELLAN DOES MORE DAMAGE! Without even titanic keyword help.

1 attack is lot less consistent than volcano. 1 attack is super non consistent. If you want consistent damage output you take castellan.

Oh and valiant isn't any better in CC than castellan.

A Castellan with the relic plasma weapon will reliably destroy a Shadowsword in a single shooting phase from what I can tell and that's just from the two arm guns so not including the shoulder mounted weapons and four meltaguns, that's crazy good efficiency as you're free to shoot all those other nasty guns elsewhere. The Castellan also trades incredibly well with a Shadowsword thanks to an easily obtained 3++ (costs 3CP though, but you'll only need it for 1 turn if the opponent is reliant on a Shadowsword to destroy your Castellan) that means the Shadowsword is unlikely to drop the Castellan down a damage bracket in a single shooting phase. Not bad at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
[

What are you on about, I already agree with you, the Castellan is better. In CC the Valiant is better though and it would chew through any other super heavy in CC with ease, in CC doesn't do as much total damage as the Castellan does but it consistently would do more damage on average, as with the Castellan you are rolling D6's to see what attacks you get and rolling D3's to see what damage you are doing etc. which can end up in very low output, whereas the Valiant does a solid 10 damage per unsaved wound and an extra d3 mortal wounds for every unsaved wound. Whatever you are going after in CC this will most likely kill it, For its points its a gak infantry killer, you can do more with less points, its best use is for killing big game in CC.

You: The valiant is much better against other super heavies

You claim the flamer/harpoon variant is better against other super heavies.

Ummm no. He's worse. Less damage. At shorter range. Less damage is not better. Even when you are in range(which you always are) CASTELLAN DOES MORE DAMAGE! Without even titanic keyword help.

1 attack is lot less consistent than volcano. 1 attack is super non consistent. If you want consistent damage output you take castellan.

Oh and valiant isn't any better in CC than castellan.

Already addressed, he/she mistakenly thought the Harpoon was a melee weapon. All cleared up now.

tneva82 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
[

What are you on about, I already agree with you, the Castellan is better. In CC the Valiant is better though and it would chew through any other super heavy in CC with ease, in CC doesn't do as much total damage as the Castellan does but it consistently would do more damage on average, as with the Castellan you are rolling D6's to see what attacks you get and rolling D3's to see what damage you are doing etc. which can end up in very low output, whereas the Valiant does a solid 10 damage per unsaved wound and an extra d3 mortal wounds for every unsaved wound. Whatever you are going after in CC this will most likely kill it, For its points its a gak infantry killer, you can do more with less points, its best use is for killing big game in CC.

You: The valiant is much better against other super heavies

You claim the flamer/harpoon variant is better against other super heavies.

Ummm no. He's worse. Less damage. At shorter range. Less damage is not better. Even when you are in range(which you always are) CASTELLAN DOES MORE DAMAGE! Without even titanic keyword help.

1 attack is lot less consistent than volcano. 1 attack is super non consistent. If you want consistent damage output you take castellan.

Oh and valiant isn't any better in CC than castellan.

Read the comment where I said I thought the harpoon was a CC weapon.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Caederes wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
How on earth are they equal in in CC... They don't have the same strength or melee weapons.

Ok, I'm actually not sure if you're trolling or not.
Go and check their profiles. The Castellan and Valiant have identical profiles, the only differences between the two are the arm-mounted guns. The only close combat weapon that either of them has is Titanic Feet.

Whoops, my bad, I thought that harpoon was a CC weapon, only heave 1 at 12", okay the Valiant sucks now.

It does have a native re-roll to hit when targeting monsters/vehicles, which are obviously its intended targets. But man, don't underestimate that flamer and the ability to effectively say "NO" to 95% of melee units in the game.

Like I said earlier the Acheron does just as good a job, (better on damage but less in output) and its way cheaper, plus it has extra movement 14" which is really crucial for a flamer weapon. plus it's great in CC, plus it gets the 5+ regain wound dealy.

I don't really mind 75 more points for an extra d6 flamer shots, the harpoon, 4 melta shots, 4d3 mini-battlecannon shots, and a couple shots of "screw your invuln" missiles that could stratagem to try and assassinate characters. Plus the option of taking the relic flamer for reroll wounds. I will admit the acheron flamer having 3 damage is kinda neat though. But the melee weapon feels like a waste given that you stomp 90% of the time anyway.

But the acheron is more expensive cash-wise, I don't like the look of the cerastus knights when next to my more dwarf-style GW ones, and there's always the anti-forge-world crowd that will shout to the high heavens that you are waac tfg satanspawn for daring to buy one.

 niv-mizzet wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Caederes wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
How on earth are they equal in in CC... They don't have the same strength or melee weapons.

Ok, I'm actually not sure if you're trolling or not.
Go and check their profiles. The Castellan and Valiant have identical profiles, the only differences between the two are the arm-mounted guns. The only close combat weapon that either of them has is Titanic Feet.

Whoops, my bad, I thought that harpoon was a CC weapon, only heave 1 at 12", okay the Valiant sucks now.

It does have a native re-roll to hit when targeting monsters/vehicles, which are obviously its intended targets. But man, don't underestimate that flamer and the ability to effectively say "NO" to 95% of melee units in the game.

Like I said earlier the Acheron does just as good a job, (better on damage but less in output) and its way cheaper, plus it has extra movement 14" which is really crucial for a flamer weapon. plus it's great in CC, plus it gets the 5+ regain wound dealy.

I don't really mind 75 more points for an extra d6 flamer shots, the harpoon, 4 melta shots, 4d3 mini-battlecannon shots, and a couple shots of "screw your invuln" missiles that could stratagem to try and assassinate characters. Plus the option of taking the relic flamer for reroll wounds. I will admit the acheron flamer having 3 damage is kinda neat though. But the melee weapon feels like a waste given that you stomp 90% of the time anyway.

But the acheron is more expensive cash-wise, I don't like the look of the cerastus knights when next to my more dwarf-style GW ones, and there's always the anti-forge-world crowd that will shout to the high heavens that you are waac tfg satanspawn for daring to buy one.

Where Is it only 75 more points, I thought it was going to be costing 600 as most people were saying. Looks like I'll have to get the codex.

(skipped quoting to stop the pyramid)
According to my source, it's 559 for two missile racks and one mini-cannon or 582 for the reverse.

So 87 more for the more expensive version compared to the stock acheron. (I did misremember it as being 570 for some reason, maybe he pulled a ninja-edit on me!)

Realistically - with Aliotoc being as strong as it is. Auto-hit weapons are a must have. If your army can't deal with buffed spears - it doesn't belong in competitive.

Also I think some crucial houses are being ignored for the Valiant. Raven honestly seems best to me. The have advance and charge stratagem - and can advance and shoot the super flamer. This also gets 4 meltas into action faster. It's easily the best trait IMO.

It is a bummer that the harpoon kinda of sucks but in the end it's going to be 1 shoting most tanks without an invo. Moving 12+d6 every turn.

Castelan is a beast - don't get me wrong. I'm not a fan on D6 shots on weapons though - they CAN NOT be counted on to do anything.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Realistically - with Aliotoc being as strong as it is. Auto-hit weapons are a must have. If your army can't deal with buffed spears - it doesn't belong in competitive.

Also I think some crucial houses are being ignored for the Valiant. Raven honestly seems best to me. The have advance and charge stratagem - and can advance and shoot the super flamer. This also gets 4 meltas into action faster. It's easily the best trait IMO.

It is a bummer that the harpoon kinda of sucks but in the end it's going to be 1 shoting most tanks without an invo. Moving 12+d6 every turn.

Castelan is a beast - don't get me wrong. I'm not a fan on D6 shots on weapons though - they CAN NOT be counted on to do anything.

If they made the harpoon a shooting and a melee weapon than I'd reconsider taking the Valiant.

Well played gentleman! I think both have their merits based on the application. As a long time guard player I think I have plenty of long range shooting available to me (as well as a few shadowswords!)

I will however be playing the Valiant because I realized the relic plasma was Questor Mechanicus only and I am a loyal vassal of House Terryn, never to be associated with those Omnissiah loving cogboys!

Plus giant flamers are cool

 Xenomancers wrote:
Realistically - with Aliotoc being as strong as it is. Auto-hit weapons are a must have. If your army can't deal with buffed spears - it doesn't belong in competitive.

Also I think some crucial houses are being ignored for the Valiant. Raven honestly seems best to me. The have advance and charge stratagem - and can advance and shoot the super flamer. This also gets 4 meltas into action faster. It's easily the best trait IMO.

It is a bummer that the harpoon kinda of sucks but in the end it's going to be 1 shoting most tanks without an invo. Moving 12+d6 every turn.

I *am* having a really hard time between hawkshroud and raven. The degrade-mitigation is awesome, and I really like a valiant protecting other units with the hawkshroud strat by pretending to be a Tau and then hopping in to chun-li kick.

On the other hand, raven would help the val get into ideal range faster, and that raven-specific strat makes for an absolutely boss turn of fire.

And I kinda like the harpoon. 74% success rate at one-shotting most of the marine/chaos tanks with no save, along with a lot of nid monsters and others.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Castelan is a beast - don't get me wrong. I'm not a fan on D6 shots on weapons though - they CAN NOT be counted on to do anything.

more than heavy 1 though. Yes sometimes you roll 1 but thats what rerolls are. 1 shot weapons are always very unreliable though. And when you get one chance even more so. When you get within 12" you need it to succeed to hit wound and get past inv save

Plus plenty targets harpoon aint one shotting ever

tneva82 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Castelan is a beast - don't get me wrong. I'm not a fan on D6 shots on weapons though - they CAN NOT be counted on to do anything.

more than heavy 1 though. Yes sometimes you roll 1 but thats what rerolls are. 1 shot weapons are always very unreliable though. And when you get one chance even more so. When you get within 12" you need it to succeed to hit wound and get past inv save

Plus plenty targets harpoon aint one shotting ever

Not the same - it gets a reroll vs any target it wants to shoot at and that shot is going to wound on a 2. It reliably kills rhinos in a single shot by loading all of it's power into 1 shot that will likely hit and wound. It's not the weapon I want but it's a nice supplement to the 3d6 flammer which is an absolute must. Lets also not forget 4 melta guns. How does the Mini Volcano compare to the harpon plus the 4 meltas which the Castilian is probably not going to be utilizing. I don't think it's gonna be winning that damage comparison.

Castellan has same meltas. And 1 shot is still 1 shot. Very unreliable. And sorry but rhinos isn't my primary target. Many who are won't get one shotted by harpoon and 4++ or even 3++ makes harpoon very unreliabae when you get one chance.

Castellan outdamages valiant against vehicles. Valiant is better vs flvers(particularly eldar one and elite infantry.but those aren"t everywhere. I need weapons to torch tougg targets that aim to be over 30" as a principle.

One is a stand back and shoot.

The other is ‘get up close and rain down hell upon them’.

Castellan is the one that least needs a favourable situation to be useful.

Valiant? Well, I really quite like it. The Flamer is devastating. Effective 28” range, no rolling to hit. But it’s the Damage 2 that’s tickled my pickle with it. Bikes, Heavy Infantry, Light to (in a pinch!) medium vehicles are all in big trouble. Even with a relatively poor roll for the number of shots can be mitigated thanks to Battleshock potential. Harpoon isn’t as great as when your first see it’s stats, but it’s still a good threat against Transports and heavier units. Spend a CP if you must for some re-roll goodness. 11-13 Wounds is never anything to be sniffed at.

Add in the ancillary Weapons, and it’s a mobile threat your opponent has to deal with. Now nobody has mentioned the Flamer on Overwatch, so I suspect I’m missing something (no Overwatch for Superheavies perhaps? Inform me peeps) - but there’s a relatively decent chance that it can wipe out charging units, or at least de-fang them enough that their close combat attacks end well blunted. Quick bit of tap dancing, and even Horde units can be whittle down very quickly. And if I manage to pull off an Overwatch hit with the Harpoon against a Character, I reserve the right to laugh a lot!

It does overwatch, and there was a fun battle report where an unharmed daemon prince charged it and was annihilated.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
One is a stand back and shoot.

The other is ‘get up close and rain down hell upon them’.

Castellan is the one that least needs a favourable situation to be useful.

Valiant? Well, I really quite like it. The Flamer is devastating. Effective 28” range, no rolling to hit. But it’s the Damage 2 that’s tickled my pickle with it. Bikes, Heavy Infantry, Light to (in a pinch!) medium vehicles are all in big trouble. Even with a relatively poor roll for the number of shots can be mitigated thanks to Battleshock potential. Harpoon isn’t as great as when your first see it’s stats, but it’s still a good threat against Transports and heavier units. Spend a CP if you must for some re-roll goodness. 11-13 Wounds is never anything to be sniffed at.

Add in the ancillary Weapons, and it’s a mobile threat your opponent has to deal with. Now nobody has mentioned the Flamer on Overwatch, so I suspect I’m missing something (no Overwatch for Superheavies perhaps? Inform me peeps) - but there’s a relatively decent chance that it can wipe out charging units, or at least de-fang them enough that their close combat attacks end well blunted. Quick bit of tap dancing, and even Horde units can be whittle down very quickly. And if I manage to pull off an Overwatch hit with the Harpoon against a Character, I reserve the right to laugh a lot!

It should really deny invo saves but it doesn't.

Saucy!

So yeah, with 3D6 shots at S7, -2 D2, there’s a lot of armies out there I can imagine wouldn’t even want to charge the thing in the first place.

Even TH/SS Terminators ought to pause (dunno if they’re still any cop like, don’t get to play much), because of that Damage 2. Every blobbed save is a Terminator that’s snuffed it.

Use the rest of your army right, and you can shoot up likely chargers to the point where if your opponent is daft (or plain inexperienced enough) to declare multiple charges, the chances of absolute carnage are mental.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
One is a stand back and shoot.

The other is ‘get up close and rain down hell upon them’.

Castellan is the one that least needs a favourable situation to be useful.

Valiant? Well, I really quite like it. The Flamer is devastating. Effective 28” range, no rolling to hit. But it’s the Damage 2 that’s tickled my pickle with it. Bikes, Heavy Infantry, Light to (in a pinch!) medium vehicles are all in big trouble. Even with a relatively poor roll for the number of shots can be mitigated thanks to Battleshock potential. Harpoon isn’t as great as when your first see it’s stats, but it’s still a good threat against Transports and heavier units. Spend a CP if you must for some re-roll goodness. 11-13 Wounds is never anything to be sniffed at.

Add in the ancillary Weapons, and it’s a mobile threat your opponent has to deal with. Now nobody has mentioned the Flamer on Overwatch, so I suspect I’m missing something (no Overwatch for Superheavies perhaps? Inform me peeps) - but there’s a relatively decent chance that it can wipe out charging units, or at least de-fang them enough that their close combat attacks end well blunted. Quick bit of tap dancing, and even Horde units can be whittle down very quickly. And if I manage to pull off an Overwatch hit with the Harpoon against a Character, I reserve the right to laugh a lot!

It should really deny invo saves but it doesn't.

But we all know if you’re gonna fail your INV, it will be at the worst possible moment

Each flamer does 3d6 hits, which is 10.5 on average.

Against Termis with TH/SS, that's 7 wounds, for about two failed saves. Four, often five if you have two flamers.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Each flamer does 3d6 hits, which is 10.5 on average.

Against Termis with TH/SS, that's 7 wounds, for about two failed saves. Four, often five if you have two flamers.

As a well known Spawny Get when it comes to my dice?

tneva82 wrote:
Castellan has same meltas. And 1 shot is still 1 shot. Very unreliable. And sorry but rhinos isn't my primary target. Many who are won't get one shotted by harpoon and 4++ or even 3++ makes harpoon very unreliabae when you get one chance.

Castellan outdamages valiant against vehicles. Valiant is better vs flvers(particularly eldar one and elite infantry.but those aren"t everywhere. I need weapons to torch tougg targets that aim to be over 30" as a principle.

What are you worried about? Shadow swords? Yeah - you are going to struggle against criminally undercosted things that are designed to destroy you. Just write those games off.

Realistically I am probably going to be running both super knights an armager with autocannons and a gaurd brigade.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The autocannons are going to be more effective vs the thunderhammers. Plus - it's a great place to shoot your missle that denies invo saves .

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Insularum wrote:
The Castellan certainly looks like the easiest to use, but really it's only selling point is the volcano lance (there are easier ways of putting down lots of plasma shots), and unless you have a target rich environment it's going to be quite inefficient at shooting up msu marines with a titan killer gun.

The Valliant's primary weapons look alright, but of more interest to me is that by hiding at range the Castellan will deny itself 4 melta shots and 12 titanic feet attacks per turn (I assume Dominus pattern knights will also get these). I'm not convinced that the Castellan primary guns are superior by 16 str 8 attacks that the Valiant is more likely to make use of. Also, whatever pattern of Dominus is taken it will be a fire magnet - an auto hitting primary weapon will be somewhat of a safeguard against the guaranteed degrading stats, so for now I'm leaning towards the Valiant.

Only selling point is the valcano lance, its a valcano lance with the plasma decimator, saying that the plasma isn't good just because there is a lot of other units with plasma is faulty logic, the damage output is far more than the valiant and it can do that at long distance. The valiant is better than all the other knights as a shock/close combat knight. If you just take the two main weapons the valcano lance and the plasma vs the hookshot and the conflagration it's 86 damage vs 76 damage and the 76 is limited by its range. The valiant is much better against other super heavies but even against them you are missing a whole turn of shooting, its very situational.

In no way do I think the Castellan is bad, but I'm afraid I don't agree with the faulty logic claim. There are better sources of plasma, over any range, and the lance does only shine when facing titanic units - versus a non titanic T8+ target it isn't much better than any other good AT weapon. I think the Castellan is solid, but it just doesn't jump out at being best in class at anything - just a big dependable unit.

The bigger case of faulty logic is complaining about the hookshots range (love the reference, am keeping that ), by hanging back with the Castellan you forfeit 4 meltas and 12 stomps which is more than enough to close the 76/86 damage differential. The output over time will also continue to swing in the Valiants favour as it's main gun does not degrade, it laughs at hit modifiers, it uses all of the weapons you have paid for, and is simply ridiculous at overwatch.

Insularum wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Insularum wrote:
The Castellan certainly looks like the easiest to use, but really it's only selling point is the volcano lance (there are easier ways of putting down lots of plasma shots), and unless you have a target rich environment it's going to be quite inefficient at shooting up msu marines with a titan killer gun.

The Valliant's primary weapons look alright, but of more interest to me is that by hiding at range the Castellan will deny itself 4 melta shots and 12 titanic feet attacks per turn (I assume Dominus pattern knights will also get these). I'm not convinced that the Castellan primary guns are superior by 16 str 8 attacks that the Valiant is more likely to make use of. Also, whatever pattern of Dominus is taken it will be a fire magnet - an auto hitting primary weapon will be somewhat of a safeguard against the guaranteed degrading stats, so for now I'm leaning towards the Valiant.

Only selling point is the valcano lance, its a valcano lance with the plasma decimator, saying that the plasma isn't good just because there is a lot of other units with plasma is faulty logic, the damage output is far more than the valiant and it can do that at long distance. The valiant is better than all the other knights as a shock/close combat knight. If you just take the two main weapons the valcano lance and the plasma vs the hookshot and the conflagration it's 86 damage vs 76 damage and the 76 is limited by its range. The valiant is much better against other super heavies but even against them you are missing a whole turn of shooting, its very situational.

In no way do I think the Castellan is bad, but I'm afraid I don't agree with the faulty logic claim. There are better sources of plasma, over any range, and the lance does only shine when facing titanic units - versus a non titanic T8+ target it isn't much better than any other good AT weapon. I think the Castellan is solid, but it just doesn't jump out at being best in class at anything - just a big dependable unit.

The bigger case of faulty logic is complaining about the hookshots range (love the reference, am keeping that ), by hanging back with the Castellan you forfeit 4 meltas and 12 stomps which is more than enough to close the 76/86 damage differential. The output over time will also continue to swing in the Valiants favour as it's main gun does not degrade, it laughs at hit modifiers, it uses all of the weapons you have paid for, and is simply ridiculous at overwatch.

Indeed this. Also the Castellan doesn't fill any role that I can't already cover. Predators, ranged dreads, knight crusaders and helverins, my reaver Titan in big games etc etc. The val represents something with its close range fire and scary overwatch I can't really duplicate in the rest of my collection.