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Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Be fair dude. You're entitled not to like it, but to suggest it's inherently awful isn't exactly true.
Here, we've seen a build up over two or three years, culminating in a galactic calamity which affects all the races.
That's not a small period of time at all.
not really, it was the previous year, the DG stuff was good but the period of 2 years before that was the gak storm and in comparison to the whole 40k existence and amount of lore released in 30 odd years, it was a lot and now the men of iron are back. All of the lore in that 2 year period came from nowhere, none of it was developed, again they were all ex-machinas and one after another explaining each previous plot, it was horrifically bad writing and that's being fair. GW are just releasing lore to release models, when they could easily plan and develop the lore, which they just aren't doing. I mean honestly if they continue like this, where so much lore and universe changing lore is coming out all the time, do you really think that is a good thing for the lore, look at the HH? They can easily release lore that hints at new releases but they can also release subterfuge lore, where no models are released so that they don't give out releases before their date.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2018/11/26 14:15:35
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Because otherwise it becomes about everyone fighting That One Thing. That's a difficult position to pull back from.
You can shift the balance in such a way that everyone remains challenged, and nobody has a free run at things. And that's what they've gone for in my opinion.
Not really. The Imperium being weakened without a huge galactic event that hampers everybody can still result in other races ending up fighting each other, not just the Imperium.
Races taking advantage of the Imperium's weakness will lead to clashing with other races trying to do the same thing. Necrons seeking to reclaim and awaken tomb worlds which were occupied by the Imperium can get into conflict with the imperial defenders, Chaos forces trying to acquire a demonic relic hidden on the planet, Eldar trying to keep the demonic relic sealed away, a Tau force seeking to bring the planet into the Tau empire and Orks looking for a scrap.
Then these inter-species wars detract from each races attempts to press the Imperium, giving it time to shore up defences deeper in its territory and marshal forces to try and retake the lost worlds and systems.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/26 14:32:14
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
It's simply not true that all of it is new. Cadia was always about to fall for 20 years, and it finally did.
The Eldar Codex from 4th edition already hints at the resurrection of Ynnead.
Mortarion and other Daemon Primarchs always featured in the background, some more active than others.
The Loyalist primarchs were always in stasis/ hidden in the rock/ somewhere in the warp/ imprisoned by DE/Necrons - so obviously many of them were in a state of "Yeah, gone, but at the right time they might come back."
The only thing actually coming out of nowhere are the Primaris/Cawl (and all the new technology connected to them) and I agree that they're not very original as a concept. With Fabius Bile working on the same thing as Primaris even they aren't exactly new. Seems like Cawl just won the arms race.
So far the only thing I dislike about the new lore is how easily everybody in the Imperium seems to accept Guilliman and his vast changes. Yes I read Dark Imperium but it only made it even more unbelievable to me. Suddenly everybody is mostly cool with inventing new stuff and somehow the Imperium, despite being literally split in half, has the ressources to create new Legions of Space Marines. Why did no one bother to do that in the last... 9000 years?
Delvarus Centurion wrote: not really, it was the previous year, the DG stuff was good but the period of 2 years before that was the gak storm and in comparison to the whole 40k existence and amount of lore released in 30 odd years, it was a lot and now the men of iron are back. All of the lore in that 2 year period came from nowhere, none of it was developed, again they were all ex-machinas and one after another explaining each previous plot, it was horrifically bad writing and that's being fair. GW are just releasing lore to release models, when they could easily plan and develop the lore, which they just aren't doing. I mean honestly if they continue like this, where so much lore and universe changing lore is coming out all the time, do you really think that is a good thing for the lore, look at the HH? They can easily release lore that hints at new releases but they can also release subterfuge lore, where no models are released so that they don't give out releases before their date.
Sorry, I'm struggling to see your point.
What recent lore hasn't been set up in advance?
Men of Iron being a thing "in the wild" has been a potential since First and Only, over a decade ago.
The Ynnari/Birth of Ynnead has been set up since Death Masque.
The Necron pylons on Cadia has been set up for years, as has Trayzn's habit of being a rather neutral force and collecting certain individuals.
The idea of the Great Rift was set up with 6th/7th edition fluff about Abaddon's Crimson Path.
Guilliman being alive and the potential of him coming back has been around since at least since 5th.
The Primaris Marines and Cawl, while new, are hardly completely out of the blue - experiments on Space Marine geneseed such as the Tempering, Cursed Founding, and suchlike are hardly unheard of, and the creation of new equipment such as Mark 8 Errant armour and Centurion suits sets precedent for the various new items.
The only real reason I think people dislike the new lore, and say it was unfounded, was because it moved so quickly compared to the utter stagnancy we'd had beforehand. I would feel confident in saying that, had the events of the last few years been spread out over twice that time (and no other changes made), people would not have cared as much.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: not really, it was the previous year, the DG stuff was good but the period of 2 years before that was the gak storm and in comparison to the whole 40k existence and amount of lore released in 30 odd years, it was a lot and now the men of iron are back. All of the lore in that 2 year period came from nowhere, none of it was developed, again they were all ex-machinas and one after another explaining each previous plot, it was horrifically bad writing and that's being fair. GW are just releasing lore to release models, when they could easily plan and develop the lore, which they just aren't doing. I mean honestly if they continue like this, where so much lore and universe changing lore is coming out all the time, do you really think that is a good thing for the lore, look at the HH? They can easily release lore that hints at new releases but they can also release subterfuge lore, where no models are released so that they don't give out releases before their date.
Sorry, I'm struggling to see your point.
What recent lore hasn't been set up in advance?
Men of Iron being a thing "in the wild" has been a potential since First and Only, over a decade ago.
The Ynnari/Birth of Ynnead has been set up since Death Masque.
The Necron pylons on Cadia has been set up for years, as has Trayzn's habit of being a rather neutral force and collecting certain individuals.
The idea of the Great Rift was set up with 6th/7th edition fluff about Abaddon's Crimson Path.
Guilliman being alive and the potential of him coming back has been around since at least since 5th.
The Primaris Marines and Cawl, while new, are hardly completely out of the blue - experiments on Space Marine geneseed such as the Tempering, Cursed Founding, and suchlike are hardly unheard of, and the creation of new equipment such as Mark 8 Errant armour and Centurion suits sets precedent for the various new items.
The only real reason I think people dislike the new lore, and say it was unfounded, was because it moved so quickly compared to the utter stagnancy we'd had beforehand. I would feel confident in saying that, had the events of the last few years been spread out over twice that time (and no other changes made), people would not have cared as much.
Death Masque was right before it, Cadia was fine which I already stated. The great rift was established before that it was not Abaddon's idea it was Kharn, the crimson path was always a Khorne thing it was meant to go from the eye to Terra. Primaris were out of nowhere, that had nothing to do with Deliverence lost and the Primarch project. Somehow Cawl magically made new marines without the Primarch project. Cawl also came out of nowhere. All of this was plopped in at the same time, Primaris to counter the great rift, Ynnari and bringing back Guilliman, etc. Come on.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/11/26 14:57:58
And? Does something need a year to ferment in the fluff to suddenly make it fine?
If Death Masque had been around since 5th, would that have changed anything?
The great rift was established before that it was not Abaddon's idea it was Kharn, the crimson path was always a Khorne thing it was meant to go from the eye to Terra.
Actually, the Crimson Path IS Abaddon's idea. Don't have the book on me, but I'm pretty sure it was in the 6th Edition CSM book, and it's not about Kharn at all.
Primaris were out of nowhere, that had nothing to do with Deliverence lost and the Primarch project. Somehow Cawl magically made new marines without the Primarch project. Cawl also came out of nowhere. All of this was plopped in at the same time, Primaris to counter the great rift, Ynnari and bringing back Guilliman, etc. Come on.
And again, that's all just further proving my point that, if all of this stuff had been stretched out over a longer period, it would hardly be an issue.
If the time it took to be released is the main issue, then that probably means the fluff itself isn't the problem.
And? Does something need a year to ferment in the fluff to suddenly make it fine?
If Death Masque had been around since 5th, would that have changed anything?
The great rift was established before that it was not Abaddon's idea it was Kharn, the crimson path was always a Khorne thing it was meant to go from the eye to Terra.
Actually, the Crimson Path IS Abaddon's idea. Don't have the book on me, but I'm pretty sure it was in the 6th Edition CSM book, and it's not about Kharn at all.
Primaris were out of nowhere, that had nothing to do with Deliverence lost and the Primarch project. Somehow Cawl magically made new marines without the Primarch project. Cawl also came out of nowhere. All of this was plopped in at the same time, Primaris to counter the great rift, Ynnari and bringing back Guilliman, etc. Come on.
And again, that's all just further proving my point that, if all of this stuff had been stretched out over a longer period, it would hardly be an issue.
If the time it took to be released is the main issue, then that probably means the fluff itself isn't the problem.
How can it be Abaddons idea, when the Crimson path was talked about in the novel Betrayer...
As for the other arguments you are clearly missing the point.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/26 16:18:04
Delvarus Centurion wrote: How can it be Abaddons idea, when the Crimson path was talked about in the novel Betrayer...
Are you sure you're not talking about the Red Path or Eightfold Path, and not the Crimson Path? They're very different things.
Like, literally just type in "Crimson Path 40k" into your preferred search engine, if you don't have the 6th Edition CSM book. Every result comes up for Abaddon, not Kharn.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Crimson_Path
As for the other arguments you are clearly missing the point.
I don't think I am. I'm asking you a question here, one you're not answering.
The question being: If the lore developments from the last few years (let's say, starting from Death Masque) had been spread out over a longer time, would the same lore have been equally bad? Because I honestly don't think it was. The only points of issue I can see are that Cawl seems to have been able to do seemingly everything (which I admit, probably could have done with a novel of his own, set in something like M35 or something, or tying him to the involvement of the Cursed Founding), and that the Primaris came out of nowhere in great numbers (again, a Cawl novel hinting at them would have sufficed).
Other than that, everything that has happened makes sense, and doesn't jump the shark. The problem is that it all happened in a very short amount of time (compared to how slow the story advanced beforehand), which removed things like fan theories and speculation.
Think of it this way - imagine if the Ynnead/Ynnari ability to reanimate the dead had been shown off in GS2, and then there's AGES until GS3 is released. In that time, we're given a whole new faction, and we as a community can hypothesise on maybe what the Ynnari could do next in the setting. By the time Guilliman gets revived, it has been well established and known about for a while what the Ynnari can do, and so Guilliman suddenly being revived seems more like a "oh, look, a faction doing what we expect it to be able to do!" than a "wait, who are these guys and how did they do that??".
There’s some very sensible arguments here against your points del. it seems really to be that Primaris Marines and crawl are he only “new” thing that you can’t reconcile. All the others have been hinted at or about to happen for a few editions.
My comments about the HH were based on our previous arguments where you were defending the shoddy rewriting of the setting purely to sell stuff and I was saying how much it irked me. Now our roles are reversed but I still believe what was done to the heresey by BL is a worse travesty than the Primaris Marines.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: How can it be Abaddons idea, when the Crimson path was talked about in the novel Betrayer...
Are you sure you're not talking about the Red Path or Eightfold Path, and not the Crimson Path? They're very different things.
Like, literally just type in "Crimson Path 40k" into your preferred search engine, if you don't have the 6th Edition CSM book. Every result comes up for Abaddon, not Kharn.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Crimson_Path
As for the other arguments you are clearly missing the point.
I don't think I am. I'm asking you a question here, one you're not answering.
The question being: If the lore developments from the last few years (let's say, starting from Death Masque) had been spread out over a longer time, would the same lore have been equally bad? Because I honestly don't think it was. The only points of issue I can see are that Cawl seems to have been able to do seemingly everything (which I admit, probably could have done with a novel of his own, set in something like M35 or something, or tying him to the involvement of the Cursed Founding), and that the Primaris came out of nowhere in great numbers (again, a Cawl novel hinting at them would have sufficed).
Other than that, everything that has happened makes sense, and doesn't jump the shark. The problem is that it all happened in a very short amount of time (compared to how slow the story advanced beforehand), which removed things like fan theories and speculation.
Think of it this way - imagine if the Ynnead/Ynnari ability to reanimate the dead had been shown off in GS2, and then there's AGES until GS3 is released. In that time, we're given a whole new faction, and we as a community can hypothesise on maybe what the Ynnari could do next in the setting. By the time Guilliman gets revived, it has been well established and known about for a while what the Ynnari can do, and so Guilliman suddenly being revived seems more like a "oh, look, a faction doing what we expect it to be able to do!" than a "wait, who are these guys and how did they do that??".
Yes its the Crimson path, Lex and Wiki are not infallible. It specifically talks about the eye of terror stretching out towards Terra.
You've mist the point, I'm not going to repeat and unpack the argument again.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/11/26 17:45:09
Yes its the Crimson path, Lex and Wiki are not infallible. It specifically talks about the eye of terror stretching out towards Terra.
You've mist the point, I'm not going to repeat and unpack the argument again.
You understand how militant the editing of Wikis are, right? Wikis are pretty much as infallible as it gets as any info deemed inaccurate (whether they are correct in that is another discussion) is removed PDQ.
Also, boneappletea, Mrs Malaprop.
Games Workshop Delenda Est.
Users on ignore- 53.
If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them.
Yes its the Crimson path, Lex and Wiki are not infallible. It specifically talks about the eye of terror stretching out towards Terra.
You've mist the point, I'm not going to repeat and unpack the argument again.
You understand how militant the editing of Wikis are, right? Wikis are pretty much as infallible as it gets as any info deemed inaccurate (whether they are correct in that is another discussion) is removed PDQ.
Also, boneappletea, Mrs Malaprop.
They are great sources but you are acting like they have every single piece of information throughout every novel. Just not true or realistic. There are no degrees to infallibility.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/26 18:08:09
Delvarus Centurion wrote:Yes its the Crimson path, Lex and Wiki are not infallible. It specifically talks about the eye of terror stretching out towards Terra.
Yes - which is what ABADDON'S trying to do, not Kharn.
Look, I've given my sources, and they corroborate what Lexicanum is saying. It is also supported by nearly every other source on the internet.
Please, if you're so certain Kharn is the architect of the Crimson Path, please, show me your source with a text quotation.
You've mist the point, I'm not going to repeat and unpack the argument again.
How have I missed the point? All I'm seeing is you actively dodging mine. At least I'm asking you what I'm missing.
Delvarus Centurion wrote:They are great sources but you are acting like they have every single piece of information throughout every novel. Just not true or realistic. There are no degrees to infallibility.
I've cited more sources than you have, and that's what, how many people supporting that the Crimson Path is by Abbaddon, not Kharn?
I mean, we have:
Myself, citing the 6th Edition Codex
Lexicanum, citing the 6th Edition and 8th Edition Codex
40k Wikia (as unreliable as it is), citing the 6th Edition Codex and 8th Edition too.
1d4chan (again, unreliable), citing 6th Edition
40klore subreddit, no source, but supporting Abaddon as the architect
Does that not throw just the tiniest bit of doubt that actually, maybe the 6th edition Codex does state Abaddon is the guy who is going the Crimson Path?
Now, I can find lots of references to Kharn following a Red path and an Eightfold path, but I can only see one reference to a Crimson Path, and that it is in the book called Kharn: The Eightfold Path, which:
A, isn't the same Crimson Path that Abaddon is referring to
B, it outright says that the World Eaters are STRAYING from that crimson path, and instead following the Eightfold Path.
Please, show me evidence to the contrary, that states Abaddon is not doing a Crimson Path.
ingtaer wrote: That's what we get for people not realising it was a setting not a story, all those people that demanded that GW advance the story and this is what we get.
I actually agree to this. My big problem with todays 40k is that it's not the setting I grew to study and love anymore. The new setting is... More of a relationship drama with actors to me. I feel like my dudes are increasingly unimportant in a story where others have the main stage.
His pattern of returning alive after being declared dead occurred often enough during Cain's career that the Munitorum made a special ruling that Ciaphas Cain is to never be considered dead, despite evidence to the contrary.
Nerak wrote: The new setting is... More of a relationship drama with actors to me. I feel like my dudes are increasingly unimportant in a story where others have the main stage.
I have to admit that if you are a Guard, a Tyranid or even and Ork player, it's easy to feel like you have been left in the dust of recent events.
Old emp dident love his sons. They were little more than tools to him. It also means that the emperor wasn't holding back when he was battling horus - he was giving it his all and almost losing.
The former head editor of BL has also spoiled more about the battle - and alluded to what the emp had planned for the astartes and primarchs after the great crusade was concluded..
Oh yeah, I remember this passage being discussed a few weeks ago! That's indeed a pretty solid scene, fairly predictable, but still well executed.
Yea, after master of mankind. there was little doubt.
I really think people read into this too much. Guilliman seems more like a mopey teenager here than a rational adult. As he notes, the Emperor's been alone and trapped in a metaphorical cage for about 10,000 years. It could very well be that the affection of the past was genuine whereas now he's half-crazed and/or delirious.
Read "The master of mandkind".
You will see. The new emps is ice cold.
- and I like it!
Here are two quotes if you cant wait.
1. It is not my son. None of them are. They are warlords and generals bred to serve a purpose.
2. The Creatures that call themselves my son. My necessary tools.
That's not good writing. That's idiotic hack work that completely misses the point of the Horus Heresy itself, and the fight between the Emperor and Horus and why the Emperor didn't outright kill Horus in the start.
The fact that you do not like this direction does not make it bad writing.
And the fact that old emps dident just one shot horus never made much sense in the first place - it does now.
We pretty much knew this was coming. Just look at the missing legions/primarchs. It has been made pretty clear that the primarchs knew what happent to them. And they are pretty much scared shitless to the point where they dare not speak of it.
The emperor was a hopeless father. Now we know why.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/11/28 12:42:42
Old emp dident love his sons. They were little more than tools to him. It also means that the emperor wasn't holding back when he was battling horus - he was giving it his all and almost losing.
The former head editor of BL has also spoiled more about the battle - and alluded to what the emp had planned for the astartes and primarchs after the great crusade was concluded..
Oh yeah, I remember this passage being discussed a few weeks ago! That's indeed a pretty solid scene, fairly predictable, but still well executed.
Yea, after master of mankind. there was little doubt.
I really think people read into this too much. Guilliman seems more like a mopey teenager here than a rational adult. As he notes, the Emperor's been alone and trapped in a metaphorical cage for about 10,000 years. It could very well be that the affection of the past was genuine whereas now he's half-crazed and/or delirious.
Read "The master of mandkind".
You will see. The new emps is ice cold.
- and I like it!
Here are two quotes if you cant wait.
1. It is not my son. None of them are. They are warlords and generals bred to serve a purpose.
2. The Creatures that call themselves my son. My necessary tools.
That's not good writing. That's idiotic hack work that completely misses the point of the Horus Heresy itself, and the fight between the Emperor and Horus and why the Emperor didn't outright kill Horus in the start.
The fact that you do not like this direction does not make it bad writing.
And the fact that old emps dident just one shot horus never made much sense in the first place - it does now.
We pretty much knew this was coming. Just look at the missing legions/primarchs. It has been made pretty clear that the primarchs knew what happent to them. And they are pretty much scared shitless to the point where they dare not speak of it.
The emperor was a hopeless father. Now we know why.
I disagree. The emperor DID oneshot Horus by psychically erasing him from existence. Why didn't he just... you know... do that from the beginning of the fight instead of let Horus pound on him for 20 minutes? The original explanation was that he didn't want to kill Horus because Horus was his favorite and he still thought Horus could be redeemed. Now it is just a mess that has been retconned so many times it doesn't make sense any more.
Old emp dident love his sons. They were little more than tools to him. It also means that the emperor wasn't holding back when he was battling horus - he was giving it his all and almost losing.
The former head editor of BL has also spoiled more about the battle - and alluded to what the emp had planned for the astartes and primarchs after the great crusade was concluded..
Oh yeah, I remember this passage being discussed a few weeks ago! That's indeed a pretty solid scene, fairly predictable, but still well executed.
Yea, after master of mankind. there was little doubt.
I really think people read into this too much. Guilliman seems more like a mopey teenager here than a rational adult. As he notes, the Emperor's been alone and trapped in a metaphorical cage for about 10,000 years. It could very well be that the affection of the past was genuine whereas now he's half-crazed and/or delirious.
Read "The master of mandkind".
You will see. The new emps is ice cold.
- and I like it!
Here are two quotes if you cant wait.
1. It is not my son. None of them are. They are warlords and generals bred to serve a purpose.
2. The Creatures that call themselves my son. My necessary tools.
That's not good writing. That's idiotic hack work that completely misses the point of the Horus Heresy itself, and the fight between the Emperor and Horus and why the Emperor didn't outright kill Horus in the start.
The fact that you do not like this direction does not make it bad writing.
And the fact that old emps dident just one shot horus never made much sense in the first place - it does now.
We pretty much knew this was coming. Just look at the missing legions/primarchs. It has been made pretty clear that the primarchs knew what happent to them. And they are pretty much scared shitless to the point where they dare not speak of it.
The emperor was a hopeless father. Now we know why.
I disagree. The emperor DID oneshot Horus by psychically erasing him from existence. Why didn't he just... you know... do that from the beginning of the fight instead of let Horus pound on him for 20 minutes? The original explanation was that he didn't want to kill Horus because Horus was his favorite and he still thought Horus could be redeemed. Now it is just a mess that has been retconned so many times it doesn't make sense any more.
I know how the old story went. And it made no sense. It does now.
Also, the former lead editor of the HH series has stated that the "loving father vs lost son" scene is no longer cannon.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/28 14:00:07
queen_annes_revenge wrote: if that is true, that the emperor didnt like the primarchs, then i'm not really a fan of that..it sort of makes the whole story irrelevant.
also, kharn is the 'eightfold path' at least during the heresy. its what he says to loken on isstvan 3, his first sign of chaos taint. it then sparks recognition in his head when argel tal mentions it on armatura in betrayer. argel tal is killed by erebus to prevent him preventing kharns eventual embrace of khorne. the latest novel suggests he is on the red path, and from what i gather, trying to resist abaddon and his summons.
Concerning the Emperor and Guilliman scene I honestly don't understand why people are so surprised by the whole "the Emperor did not love the primarchs" thing. A couple of years back I wrote a few pages on the Emperors endeavors before the HH but decided on scrapping it due to far to little fluff being available. It ended up being mostly speculative. Here's a small taste of that paper though: What we do know about the Emperor is that at the point of engaging Horus he's about 50.000years old. He's seen humanity conquer the stars and get wrecked by their own creations (men of iron), their own evolution (psykers) and their own feelings (chaos/deamons). He has guided humanity through ideas on how the stars can be claimed for them and how he can protect his species. Already he's committed countless genocides (most famous is the murders of the thunder warriors) and witnessed his own errors cause deaths on scales no one has ever understood. He has finally found a path though. Machines can't save humanity, evolution can't save humanity, but if he created great beings that would be a safeguard against previous wrongs and that would make sure the Empire would never again be ruled by neither machines nor psykers then he has finally made humanity safe. Now imagine the moment when he comes face to face to his greatest failure. He has created yet another curse. Horus who was to be the finest being humanity had created has become a parody of himself. Horus has forsaken all that was bestowed upon him. At that moment the Emperor loses. He doesn't fight, he doesn't challenge Horus. The reason is not because he loves him but because he gives up. 50.000years of guiding humanity and this is the ruination he's created.
Now here's where I hate the retcon of the story. It should go like this: Horus has murdered Sanguinius. The Emperor is broken in body. All seems lost. And yet, against the impossible odds, against death and damnation and the ruination of the Imperium someone steps up against Horus. A single man steps between Horus and the Emperor. A regular soldier. A man that faces down a demigod. A man fully aware that he will die horribly but who will curse, fight and spit through fear that will kill him. His intentions, thoughts and drive are all unknown. A soldier that will be known as Ollanius the Pious. Horus smites the soldier without effort before he turns back to the Emperor. The man is a metaphor, for humanity as a whole, for the Imperium as a whole. The Emperor realizes that he can't abandon humanity now. He murders Horus, obliterates him and is then locked into the throne for eternity.
Did he love his sons? Did he love all of humanity? Does it even matter? When what he does is to give 10.000 years of constant suffering to guard his species. Did he love his sons? As much as he loved all of humanity. As much as he struggled longer then any other has done for any race (with the possible exception of Isha). The Emperor gave so much more to his species then anyone will ever know, and he will be scorned for his lack of love for it.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2018/11/28 15:29:10
His pattern of returning alive after being declared dead occurred often enough during Cain's career that the Munitorum made a special ruling that Ciaphas Cain is to never be considered dead, despite evidence to the contrary.
Nerak wrote: He has finally found a path though. Machines can't save humanity, evolution can't save humanity, but if he created great beings that would be a safeguard against previous wrongs and that would make sure the Empire would never again be ruled by neither machines nor psykers then he has finally made humanity safe. Now imagine the moment when he comes face to face to his greatest failure. He has created yet another curse. Horus who was to be the finest being humanity had created has become a parody of himself. Horus has forsaken all that was bestowed upon him. At that moment the Emperor loses. He doesn't fight, he doesn't challenge Horus. The reason is not because he loves him but because he gives up. 50.000years of guiding humanity and this is the ruination he's created.
The primarchs were not created to safeguard anything. They were created to reconquer the galaxy. They were going the way of the thunder warriors when that goal was achived.
Nerak wrote: He has finally found a path though. Machines can't save humanity, evolution can't save humanity, but if he created great beings that would be a safeguard against previous wrongs and that would make sure the Empire would never again be ruled by neither machines nor psykers then he has finally made humanity safe. Now imagine the moment when he comes face to face to his greatest failure. He has created yet another curse. Horus who was to be the finest being humanity had created has become a parody of himself. Horus has forsaken all that was bestowed upon him. At that moment the Emperor loses. He doesn't fight, he doesn't challenge Horus. The reason is not because he loves him but because he gives up. 50.000years of guiding humanity and this is the ruination he's created.
The primarchs were not created to safeguard anything. They were created to reconquer the galaxy. They were going the way of the thunder warriors when that goal was achived.
I guess I wasn't clear. What I ment with "safeguard" was that something like the Men of Iron rebellion or the Age of strife would never come again because the primarchs where supposed to be immune to such things. They where beings that could fight and conquer without psychic powers (with the exception of Magnus but that deserves its own thread) and they where beings that didn't need machines to do thinking for them. He uses a new tool because the previous two things that where used to conquer the galaxy in the first place had backfired. that's what I mean with "safeguard against previous wrongs".
I read the thread, it doesn't in any way disprove my theory. All it says is that visions of heresy is outdated and that the Emperors actions makes no sense. In my opinions his actions make perfect sense, people just fail to grasp his character. Mostly because people look at him from the Primarchs perspective. The Emperor would undoubtedly murder the primarchs after they where done, probably the space marines legions as well. That doesn't mean apathy doesn't hit the Emperor when he faces Horus, for reasons given above (in my previous thread).
The thing I found so intresting about the Emperor is why does he bother? Why does he embark on the monumental effort to build an imperium? The answer must be to protect mankind (he says as much in the last church). Why would he protect mankind if he doesn't care about anything?
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/11/28 16:12:13
His pattern of returning alive after being declared dead occurred often enough during Cain's career that the Munitorum made a special ruling that Ciaphas Cain is to never be considered dead, despite evidence to the contrary.
Nerak wrote: He has finally found a path though. Machines can't save humanity, evolution can't save humanity, but if he created great beings that would be a safeguard against previous wrongs and that would make sure the Empire would never again be ruled by neither machines nor psykers then he has finally made humanity safe. Now imagine the moment when he comes face to face to his greatest failure. He has created yet another curse. Horus who was to be the finest being humanity had created has become a parody of himself. Horus has forsaken all that was bestowed upon him. At that moment the Emperor loses. He doesn't fight, he doesn't challenge Horus. The reason is not because he loves him but because he gives up. 50.000years of guiding humanity and this is the ruination he's created.
The primarchs were not created to safeguard anything. They were created to reconquer the galaxy. They were going the way of the thunder warriors when that goal was achived.
I read the thread, it doesn't in any way disprove my theory. All it says is that visions of heresy is outdated and that the Emperors actions makes no sense.
It does.
Read the whole thread. Laurie (former lead editior) explains everything.
The answer to your last question is also found in the thread (or read master of mankind).
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/11/28 16:54:23
Ah, I thought you had the thread url be at the relevant page. I’m not going to bother reading 22pages of discussion, just post the relevant one here under “spoilers” or direct me to the correct one. Or just write the answers here with the proper references.
His pattern of returning alive after being declared dead occurred often enough during Cain's career that the Munitorum made a special ruling that Ciaphas Cain is to never be considered dead, despite evidence to the contrary.
queen_annes_revenge wrote: if that is true, that the emperor didnt like the primarchs, then i'm not really a fan of that..it sort of makes the whole story irrelevant.
What part of the story?
All of it
If the emperor didn't care about the primarchs, who cares what happens in the Heresy? Surely the fact that half his 'sons' turned against him is a large part of the tragedy?
queen_annes_revenge wrote: if that is true, that the emperor didnt like the primarchs, then i'm not really a fan of that..it sort of makes the whole story irrelevant.
What part of the story?
All of it
If the emperor didn't care about the primarchs, who cares what happens in the Heresy? Surely the fact that half his 'sons' turned against him is a large part of the tragedy?
I dont really think it changes anything. The HH series has always been a drama/tragedy unfolding among brothers (and those close to them). The emperor has played a very minior role up until master of mankind came out.
queen_annes_revenge wrote: if that is true, that the emperor didnt like the primarchs, then i'm not really a fan of that..it sort of makes the whole story irrelevant.
What part of the story?
All of it
If the emperor didn't care about the primarchs, who cares what happens in the Heresy? Surely the fact that half his 'sons' turned against him is a large part of the tragedy?
Not particularly. Sons choosing a different path than their father is rather normal. The tragedy is in turning against each other and ripping humanity apart in the process. And in terms of the HH novels, not having any particular reason for doing so.
w1zard wrote: I disagree. The emperor DID oneshot Horus by psychically erasing him from existence. Why didn't he just... you know... do that from the beginning of the fight instead of let Horus pound on him for 20 minutes? The original explanation was that he didn't want to kill Horus because Horus was his favorite and he still thought Horus could be redeemed. Now it is just a mess that has been retconned so many times it doesn't make sense any more.
I know how the old story went. And it made no sense. It does now.
Also, the former lead editor of the HH series has stated that the "loving father vs lost son" scene is no longer cannon.
No, I like the fact that the Emperor thought of his sons as tools more than people, and absolutely thought of them as more of "experiments" than children. But I always thought the emperor let Horus kick the crap out of him because Horus was his favorite tool, and thought that while his tool was damaged, that it might ultimately be repairable.
Horus being able to 1v1 with the emperor while the emperor was going "full out" seems contradictory to what we know about the emperor's power level was, and what we know Horus' power level was (even hopped up on chaos juice). It is also contradictory with the fact that the emperor was able to psychically oneshot Horus later on in the fight while mortally wounded and laying in a pool of his own blood.
The emperor didn't let Horus kick the crap out of him because he "loved" Horus (as we as humans might know love between a father and son), but rather because he was arrogant enough to think that Horus wasn't a big enough of a danger to him to warrant going "full out" and that he could "fix this situation" without resorting to destroying his favorite tool.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/29 06:37:28
Heresy World Eaters/Emperors Children 
