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I think GW are going overboard, first cadia falls, Ynnari the rift, Primaris and now the Iron men. Its getting ridiculous now, if UR-025 is a man of iron but is a one of a kind novelty but I think GW need to spread out the changes, I hope this isn't just permanent fixture in GW, where they just keep releasing gak for money.

That's what we get for people not realising it was a setting not a story, all those people that demanded that GW advance the story and this is what we get.

 ingtaer wrote:
That's what we get for people not realising it was a setting not a story, all those people that demanded that GW advance the story and this is what we get.

r/threadkillers.

Wait this isn't Reddit... But still- there's your answer right there folks. Apparently 10,000 years of history, which is greater than recorded human history so far on a galactic scale was "stale and boring" for some people. You've made this bed, now you've gotta lie in it.

Previous plot/timeline advancements didn't result in the galaxy getting split in two, the birth of new gods, the return of primarchs etc. ect. Nor did/do they need to.

The timeline advanced in fits and starts for years - and moved well into M42 - before any of the Gathering Storm stuff happened.

Timeline advancement doesn't automatically equate to massive upheavals.

The issue is the advancements GW make are ridiculous. New better Marine armies popping up from nowhere with hoards of gear, Primarchs popping back up, the Galaxy being split in half, odd death cult Eldar, the Imperium is split in two but also doesn't seem to change much and it just goes on.

Timeline advances are fine if you aren't dumb about it. But GW aren't capable of doing them well. Not to mention 5000 years of empty story space they could use.

Eh. I might feel something about it if it mattered at all. It's all business as usual with armies fighting, so what difference does it make?

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
I think GW are going overboard, first cadia falls, Ynnari the rift, Primaris and now the Iron men. Its getting ridiculous now, if UR-025 is a man of iron but is a one of a kind novelty but I think GW need to spread out the changes, I hope this isn't just permanent fixture in GW, where they just keep releasing gak for money.

Compared to Centurions, Wolves riding Wolves and Wolf sleighs - its actually inspired writing.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Its getting ridiculous now, if UR-025 is a man of iron but is a one of a kind novelty but I think GW need to spread out the changes, I hope this isn't just permanent fixture in GW, where they just keep releasing gak for money.

What has been changed regaring the men of iron lore?

Andersp90 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Its getting ridiculous now, if UR-025 is a man of iron but is a one of a kind novelty but I think GW need to spread out the changes, I hope this isn't just permanent fixture in GW, where they just keep releasing gak for money.

What has been changed regaring the men of iron lore?

That at least one of them still exists in the present.

More has happened with the lore in the past two years then in the previous 30 years. Think about that. Nothing has changed in the game lore wise since Rogue Trader in 1987.

I welcome the changes and hope it will continue.

 Grimtuff wrote:

Andersp90 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Its getting ridiculous now, if UR-025 is a man of iron but is a one of a kind novelty but I think GW need to spread out the changes, I hope this isn't just permanent fixture in GW, where they just keep releasing gak for money.

What has been changed regaring the men of iron lore?

That at least one of them still exists in the present.

Sure. But a few suvivng a galactic spanning war dosent really seems that far-fetched to me.

I actually love what's happening right now.

Having Cadia fall is far better than Cadia being a second away from falling indefinitely, in my opinion.
Having the Eldar actually advance and have some kind of shaking up of their goals and identity was refreshing to me.
The rift creates good and organic reasons for Vigilus existing, and also actually acts as concrete evidence of Chaos as a threat (again, Cadia standing indefinitely didn't look good for Chaos).
I have nothing wrong with a Man of Iron showing up. Abnett did it in one of the first BL books, and people haven't seemed to care that much. It's a single Man of Iron, a whole army would be surprising, but a single one is hardly a massive change.

There's only so far you can set everything in M.41 and still attempt to make changes. Maybe going back to something like M35 or something would have been just as fine, but that's not too far different to things like the Horus Heresy and War of the Beast, and a lot of the people who complain about the M42 stuff ALSO complain about those areas too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tamwulf wrote:
More has happened with the lore in the past two years then in the previous 30 years. Think about that. Nothing has changed in the game lore wise since Rogue Trader in 1987.

I welcome the changes and hope it will continue.

Agreed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:
The issue is the advancements GW make are ridiculous. New better Marine armies popping up from nowhere with hoards of gear, Primarchs popping back up, the Galaxy being split in half, odd death cult Eldar,

I don't really have an issue with that. They make sense, but some of them could have had more build-up (Cawl mostly - if he'd been established for longer, he would be just fine IMO)

the Imperium is split in two but also doesn't seem to change much and it just goes on.

Isn't that the most Imperial things I've heard of?

Also, things have changed, just mostly for those beyond the Rift.

Timeline advances are fine if you aren't dumb about it. But GW aren't capable of doing them well. Not to mention 5000 years of empty story space they could use.

I agree that the empty space could have been used, but seeing as how when the War of the Beast and 30k started getting fleshed out more, we also had people complaining (and a good portion of them are people who also oppose the setting being advanced), it seems more like people just had an issue with things other than M41 being fleshed out.

Advancing the story doesn't render anyone's personal armies irrelevant. Changing the unknown has the risk of invalidating certain people's "Your Dudes" - such as someone with an Imperial Fist army with history dating back to the Horus Heresy now having to rewrite their army's lore because the IF all died out in M32.

I dig the advancement, I do think some of it is bad; however just the fact stuff is happening is so refreshing. Big things don't have to happen, but having new names potentially enter the universe is great.

 Grimtuff wrote:
at least one of them still exists in the present.

Meh, in the very first Gaunt's Ghost novel, they stumble upon a Men of Iron factory corrupted by the power of Chaos. Gaunt duel one such machine and destroys it. While the navy did blew up the factory, it wouldn't have been that surprising for a few models to survive the blast. I wouldn't call that a "big change".

On the subject of setting changes, advancing the story line was bound to radically change the setting of 40K. The battle of Armageddon, the largest Ork invasion since the War of the Beast started two years prior and was yet to be resolved despite Ghazkull departure to get reinforcement. The 13th Black Crusade of Abbadon, his master plan, was impeding/just began. the war or Octarius was at its height and whoever would win would become a menace like no other. Necros were awakening left and right, more Tyranid fleets were comming and a tendril of Leviathan was heading toward Terra and another attacked Baal and its sector. If you move the setting forward of let's say a century, massive changes were inevitable.

They don't really make good writing though. They literally said oh here's an army of Marines+1 for everyone. One God gets all the Eldar love and others get nothing. The Rift doesn't change much, the faraway governments who aren't that helpful are the same.

They introduced a lot of dramatic things that aren't massively contradictory to what came before but they also don't make sense and feel shoehorned in. Like if Game of Thrones suddenly had an army of Dragons appear from a previously unknown country and kill the white walkers and take over everything. Nothing makes it impossible but it's still awful.

Well, now you've just given away what's in Sothoryos...

 Tamwulf wrote:
More has happened with the lore in the past two years then in the previous 30 years. Think about that. Nothing has changed in the game lore wise since Rogue Trader in 1987.

Stuff and nonsense. Off the top of my head:

Craftworld Eldar- Aspects and Paths (and basically any real sense of eldar culture and history)
Dark Eldar & Comorroragh
Necrons
Tau
Tyranids (and genestealers- random alien from some moon changed to a harbinger/targeting organism)
Even basic marine fluff changed- they started life as drugged out, indoctrinated criminals. Space Wolves were presented as a standard chapter in RT with all sorts of details embedded in the map of their fortress-monastery (which was on a completely different planet)
Chaos and warp threats were fleshed out and taken in a completely different direction (when was the last time they even mentioned Vampires? [that weren't Blood Angels]). The Big Four weren't in RT itself.

Slann were effectively written out and replaced with the generic 'Old Ones'
Even ork klans happened after 1987 (Waargh the Orks was published in 1990, Ere We Go and Freebooters followed that fluff book, and that kicked off Da Lost Race [brainboyz] and all the lore that followed)

The list of things that changed lore-wise from 1987 to 2016 is absurdly long.

Voss wrote:

 Tamwulf wrote:
More has happened with the lore in the past two years then in the previous 30 years. Think about that. Nothing has changed in the game lore wise since Rogue Trader in 1987.

Stuff and nonsense. Off the top of my head:

Craftworld Eldar- Aspects and Paths (and basically any real sense of eldar culture and history)
Dark Eldar & Comorroragh
Necrons
Tau
Tyranids (and genestealers- random alien from some moon changed to a harbinger/targeting organism)
Even basic marine fluff changed- they started life as drugged out, indoctrinated criminals. Space Wolves were presented as a standard chapter in RT with all sorts of details embedded in the map of their fortress-monastery (which was on a completely different planet)
Chaos and warp threats were fleshed out and taken in a completely different direction (when was the last time they even mentioned Vampires? [that weren't Blood Angels]). The Big Four weren't in RT itself.

Slann were effectively written out and replaced with the generic 'Old Ones'
Even ork klans happened after 1987 (Waargh the Orks was published in 1990, Ere We Go and Freebooters followed that fluff book, and that kicked off Da Lost Race [brainboyz] and all the lore that followed)

The list of things that changed lore-wise from 1987 to 2016 is absurdly long.

Good points - well made

I don't know how to explain that releasing gak for money is GW's entire thing

 Arachnofiend wrote:
I don't know how to explain that releasing gak for money is GW's entire thing

There's a big difference between releasing stuff and their....habits when it comes to setting progression.

I think more Imperium VS Imperium conflicts should be a thing... Hopefully the new Sisters or a returning Primarch will stir things up on that front.

Did anyone else notice on the trailer for the new campaign book, it looked like AM vs Mechanicus fighting eachother?

I love the plot advancement. Yeah it is a little extreme but it has breathed new life into a setting that had kind of stagnated over the years.

What they are doing with the 40k setting is much better than the abomination that is the horus heresey series from BL. That’s ruining the history of the setting. At least moving the story forward they can introduce new stuff without having to explain where’s it’s been for the last 10000 years.

That series has changed more about the setting than the 8th story line has. Bring in the new stuff. So far it’s all great. Models are amazing and the “lore” or fluff as it should be called is fine. Can’t wait to see more behind the rift stuff. It’s done wonders for the setting of our narrative games. Opened up new possibilities and given a bit of the rogue trader style lawlessness back into it.

I think they have already damaged the setting to a significant degree. The only GW games that haven't had their lore crapped on is basically blood bowl and necromunda. Necromunda is lucky cause its isolated to that planet.

Imo 40k was meant to be a setting and backdrop for games and models not an advancing story. Some of the new lore is just comical.

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Previous plot/timeline advancements didn't result in the galaxy getting split in two, the birth of new gods, the return of primarchs etc. ect. Nor did/do they need to.

The timeline advanced in fits and starts for years - and moved well into M42 - before any of the Gathering Storm stuff happened.

Timeline advancement doesn't automatically equate to massive upheavals.

Those sound like my old points from Warseer 10 years ago.

You missed one:

Not every faction has a 10k history of activity to play with. These include Tau, Tyranids, and to some degree Necrons. The Tau and Tyranids only appeared on the scene recently, and the Necrons were mostly inactive before. Even if by some plot handwaving, an advance Tyranid force or a lone Necron dynasty waking were shoehorned into the past, there would need to be equal handwaving to justify why they haven't accomplished anything or went back to sleep/dormancy again.

The only good thing to come out of the new lore, is the meeting between guilliman and the emp - the final battle between horus and the emperor finally makes sense. I really like that.

And at least that part of the lore is truly grimdark now...

Andersp90 wrote:
The only good thing to come out of the new lore, is the meeting between guilliman and the emp - the final battle between horus and the emperor finally makes sense. I really like that.

And at least that part of the lore is truly grimdark now...

Can you spoil me what happened in resumé?

epronovost wrote:

Andersp90 wrote:
The only good thing to come out of the new lore, is the meeting between guilliman and the emp - the final battle between horus and the emperor finally makes sense. I really like that.

And at least that part of the lore is truly grimdark now...

Can you spoil me what happened in resumé?

Here you go:



But I also think you should read it yourself.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1D_lnzgLEe3taX24SodvfCSd2VGsHcIgwQpJ5jmIMuLs/edit

The former head editor of BL has also spoiled more about the battle - and alluded to what the emp had planned for the astartes and primarchs after the great crusade was concluded..

Andersp90 wrote:


Here you go:

Spoiler:

Old emp dident love his sons. They were little more than tools to him. It also means that the emperor wasn't holding back when he was battling horus - he was giving it his all and almost losing.

But I also think you should read it yourself.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1D_lnzgLEe3taX24SodvfCSd2VGsHcIgwQpJ5jmIMuLs/edit

The former head editor of BL has also spoiled more about the battle - and alluded to what the emp had planned for the astartes and primarchs after the great crusade was concluded..

Oh yeah, I remember this passage being discussed a few weeks ago! That's indeed a pretty solid scene, fairly predictable, but still well executed.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

I have nothing wrong with a Man of Iron showing up.

Or even an Old One. What's the point of having background lore if it just stays in the background? Mind you, I'd expect any Old Ones to have fled the galaxy millions of years gone and never looked back, as they could rebuild somewhere where the warp wasn't completely fethed up. But the Necrons might have an Old One or two locked up in a stasis vault.