Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

epronovost wrote:

Andersp90 wrote:


Here you go:

Spoiler:

Old emp dident love his sons. They were little more than tools to him. It also means that the emperor wasn't holding back when he was battling horus - he was giving it his all and almost losing.

But I also think you should read it yourself.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1D_lnzgLEe3taX24SodvfCSd2VGsHcIgwQpJ5jmIMuLs/edit

The former head editor of BL has also spoiled more about the battle - and alluded to what the emp had planned for the astartes and primarchs after the great crusade was concluded..

Oh yeah, I remember this passage being discussed a few weeks ago! That's indeed a pretty solid scene, fairly predictable, but still well executed.

Yea, after master of mankind. there was little doubt.

Andersp90 wrote:

epronovost wrote:

Andersp90 wrote:


Here you go:

Spoiler:

Old emp dident love his sons. They were little more than tools to him. It also means that the emperor wasn't holding back when he was battling horus - he was giving it his all and almost losing.

But I also think you should read it yourself.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1D_lnzgLEe3taX24SodvfCSd2VGsHcIgwQpJ5jmIMuLs/edit

The former head editor of BL has also spoiled more about the battle - and alluded to what the emp had planned for the astartes and primarchs after the great crusade was concluded..

Oh yeah, I remember this passage being discussed a few weeks ago! That's indeed a pretty solid scene, fairly predictable, but still well executed.

Yea, after master of mankind. there was little doubt.

I really think people read into this too much. Guilliman seems more like a mopey teenager here than a rational adult. As he notes, the Emperor's been alone and trapped in a metaphorical cage for about 10,000 years. It could very well be that the affection of the past was genuine whereas now he's half-crazed and/or delirious.

Audustum wrote:
I really think people read into this too much. Guilliman seems more like a mopey teenager here than a rational adult. As he notes, the Emperor's been alone and trapped in a metaphorical cage for about 10,000 years. It could very well be that the affection of the past was genuine whereas now he's half-crazed and/or delirious.

I don't think the Emperor was ever described as anything else but a tyrant (sometime in sheep's clothing) and an idealist. I don't think he ever loved anything beside his vision of mankind. I don't see him as a good person let alone a good father. He plays favorite with his kids all the time. He leaves them without reasons, lie to them all the time, in other words a classical deadbeat dad.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
I think more Imperium VS Imperium conflicts should be a thing... Hopefully the new Sisters or a returning Primarch will stir things up on that front.

Did anyone else notice on the trailer for the new campaign book, it looked like AM vs Mechanicus fighting eachother?

Do you mean tensions or outright war? There are definitely some good plot hooks for political drama between the main powers of the Imperium but it'd be tricky to take it all the way to shooting each other without being unsatisfying.

 ingtaer wrote:
That's what we get for people not realising it was a setting not a story, all those people that demanded that GW advance the story and this is what we get.

I don't remember anyone wanting GW to advance the story.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
I think GW are going overboard, first cadia falls, Ynnari the rift, Primaris and now the Iron men. Its getting ridiculous now, if UR-025 is a man of iron but is a one of a kind novelty but I think GW need to spread out the changes, I hope this isn't just permanent fixture in GW, where they just keep releasing gak for money.

Compared to Centurions, Wolves riding Wolves and Wolf sleighs - its actually inspired writing.

Inspired writing, you have to be kidding me, its a gak tonne of lazy ex-machina's all plopped into the span of a year or two.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm fine with advancements, but only if they are done write, spread out and built up properly not dumping 'more changes in 30 years' into the span of one or two years. The lore is now so ridiculous its not even funny. Cadia breaking alone should have happened through a few years. They are changing the lore in order to bring back and sell new models, which is fine but they don't have to do it so quickly, they can release updates to models in between all the new stuff and they'll still sell like hotcakes. I just want them to create good lore, which is thought through and developed rather than just being a mechanism to release new models

Audustum wrote:

Andersp90 wrote:

epronovost wrote:

Andersp90 wrote:


Here you go:

Spoiler:

Old emp dident love his sons. They were little more than tools to him. It also means that the emperor wasn't holding back when he was battling horus - he was giving it his all and almost losing.

But I also think you should read it yourself.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1D_lnzgLEe3taX24SodvfCSd2VGsHcIgwQpJ5jmIMuLs/edit

The former head editor of BL has also spoiled more about the battle - and alluded to what the emp had planned for the astartes and primarchs after the great crusade was concluded..

Oh yeah, I remember this passage being discussed a few weeks ago! That's indeed a pretty solid scene, fairly predictable, but still well executed.

Yea, after master of mankind. there was little doubt.

I really think people read into this too much. Guilliman seems more like a mopey teenager here than a rational adult. As he notes, the Emperor's been alone and trapped in a metaphorical cage for about 10,000 years. It could very well be that the affection of the past was genuine whereas now he's half-crazed and/or delirious.

Read "The master of mandkind".

You will see. The new emps is ice cold.

- and I like it!

Here are two quotes if you cant wait.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
I don't remember anyone wanting GW to advance the story.

Then you were either not reading DakkaDakka, weren't paying attention, or have a very bad memory.

Don't take that the wrong way, I promise I am not trying to wind you up, but there were lots of people saying everything was too stagnant and it was frustrating and/or dumb to be constantly stuck in the same status quo. I was not necessarily one of them, but I fully understood their point of view, and they were numerous.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 ingtaer wrote:
That's what we get for people not realising it was a setting not a story, all those people that demanded that GW advance the story and this is what we get.

I don't remember anyone wanting GW to advance the story.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
I think GW are going overboard, first cadia falls, Ynnari the rift, Primaris and now the Iron men. Its getting ridiculous now, if UR-025 is a man of iron but is a one of a kind novelty but I think GW need to spread out the changes, I hope this isn't just permanent fixture in GW, where they just keep releasing gak for money.

Compared to Centurions, Wolves riding Wolves and Wolf sleighs - its actually inspired writing.

Inspired writing, you have to be kidding me, its a gak tonne of lazy ex-machina's all plopped into the span of a year or two.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm fine with advancements, but only if they are done write, spread out and built up properly not dumping 'more changes in 30 years' into the span of one or two years. The lore is now so ridiculous its not even funny. Cadia breaking alone should have happened through a few years. They are changing the lore in order to bring back and sell new models, which is fine but they don't have to do it so quickly, they can release updates to models in between all the new stuff and they'll still sell like hotcakes. I just want them to create good lore, which is thought through and developed rather than just being a mechanism to release new models

Except that these things didn't happen in two years. The fall of cadia was built up since at least the Black Legion supplement in 6th edition where we learned that the 4th black crusade was already directed against the Necron defences of Cadia. The 12th black crusade gathered the Blackstone fortresses to destroy Cadia, which was part of the Lore since Battlefleet Gothic.
I admit I would have liked the Primaris Marines to not appear out of nothing - after all Fabius Bile created Primaris Marines before it was cool, just not that stable.

Audustum wrote:

I really think people read into this too much. Guilliman seems more like a mopey teenager here than a rational adult.

So basically how BL normally writes the Primarchs.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 ingtaer wrote:
That's what we get for people not realising it was a setting not a story, all those people that demanded that GW advance the story and this is what we get.

I don't remember anyone wanting GW to advance the story.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
I think GW are going overboard, first cadia falls, Ynnari the rift, Primaris and now the Iron men. Its getting ridiculous now, if UR-025 is a man of iron but is a one of a kind novelty but I think GW need to spread out the changes, I hope this isn't just permanent fixture in GW, where they just keep releasing gak for money.

Compared to Centurions, Wolves riding Wolves and Wolf sleighs - its actually inspired writing.

Inspired writing, you have to be kidding me, its a gak tonne of lazy ex-machina's all plopped into the span of a year or two.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm fine with advancements, but only if they are done write, spread out and built up properly not dumping 'more changes in 30 years' into the span of one or two years. The lore is now so ridiculous its not even funny. Cadia breaking alone should have happened through a few years. They are changing the lore in order to bring back and sell new models, which is fine but they don't have to do it so quickly, they can release updates to models in between all the new stuff and they'll still sell like hotcakes. I just want them to create good lore, which is thought through and developed rather than just being a mechanism to release new models

Except that these things didn't happen in two years. The fall of cadia was built up since at least the Black Legion supplement in 6th edition where we learned that the 4th black crusade was already directed against the Necron defences of Cadia. The 12th black crusade gathered the Blackstone fortresses to destroy Cadia, which was part of the Lore since Battlefleet Gothic.
I admit I would have liked the Primaris Marines to not appear out of nothing - after all Fabius Bile created Primaris Marines before it was cool, just not that stable.

There was always going to be a 13th black crusade against the cadian gate so yeah it wasn't developed, it was the only logical start off for an advancement in the lore. The 13th crusade has been a permanent fixture but thats not my gripe, I like the fall of cadia lore wise its all the other stuff along with that, none of which was developed, it came straight bang out of nowhere and was bundled together. I mean right when Chaos actually became proper nemesis' rather than scooby doo villains, bam Primaris and Guilliman come back and the Eldar get a fancy new god, its all too convenient.

Just FYI, the 13th Black Crusade hasn't always been a feature. It was a worldwide campaign back in 2003 that had actual games influence the background, such as the destruction of the planets of Macharia and St Joseman's Hope and Eldrad's death.

 Grimtuff wrote:
Just FYI, the 13th Black Crusade hasn't always been a feature. It was a worldwide campaign back in 2003 that had actual games influence the background, such as the destruction of the planets of Macharia and St Joseman's Hope and Eldrad's death.

Never said it has 'always' been a fixture, permanent doesn't suggest that it has always been apart of the lore.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
Just FYI, the 13th Black Crusade hasn't always been a feature. It was a worldwide campaign back in 2003 that had actual games influence the background, such as the destruction of the planets of Macharia and St Joseman's Hope and Eldrad's death.

Never said it has 'always' been a fixture, permanent doesn't suggest that it has always been apart of the lore.

Um, yes it does.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
Just FYI, the 13th Black Crusade hasn't always been a feature. It was a worldwide campaign back in 2003 that had actual games influence the background, such as the destruction of the planets of Macharia and St Joseman's Hope and Eldrad's death.

Never said it has 'always' been a fixture, permanent doesn't suggest that it has always been apart of the lore.

Um, yes it does.

You understand that things can 'become' permanent?

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 ingtaer wrote:
That's what we get for people not realising it was a setting not a story, all those people that demanded that GW advance the story and this is what we get.

I don't remember anyone wanting GW to advance the story.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
I think GW are going overboard, first cadia falls, Ynnari the rift, Primaris and now the Iron men. Its getting ridiculous now, if UR-025 is a man of iron but is a one of a kind novelty but I think GW need to spread out the changes, I hope this isn't just permanent fixture in GW, where they just keep releasing gak for money.

Compared to Centurions, Wolves riding Wolves and Wolf sleighs - its actually inspired writing.

Inspired writing, you have to be kidding me, its a gak tonne of lazy ex-machina's all plopped into the span of a year or two.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm fine with advancements, but only if they are done write, spread out and built up properly not dumping 'more changes in 30 years' into the span of one or two years. The lore is now so ridiculous its not even funny. Cadia breaking alone should have happened through a few years. They are changing the lore in order to bring back and sell new models, which is fine but they don't have to do it so quickly, they can release updates to models in between all the new stuff and they'll still sell like hotcakes. I just want them to create good lore, which is thought through and developed rather than just being a mechanism to release new models

I said COMPARED to Centurions and similar BS it was Inspired and it was.

There have been numerous posts showing how mnay changes (good and bad) that have occurred over the decades that you seem to have missed or hare ignoring.

Del you seem to think what they have done to the heresey is a good thing so I makes me doubt your opinion on the quality of the current background story. The setting needed a shake up. That’s way better than the dumbing down they have done to the heresey in order to milk a cash cow.

Andykp wrote:
Del you seem to think what they have done to the heresey is a good thing so I makes me doubt your opinion on the quality of the current background story. The setting needed a shake up. That’s way better than the dumbing down they have done to the heresey in order to milk a cash cow.

I remember reading the first few HH novels and they were good because they were focused, told a coherent story and covered an event that we already had some info on. Then 50 + books later we have so much bloat and filler that DBZ would be blushing. I get that they want to give every legion something to do but it's gone way to far.

HoundsofDemos wrote:

Andykp wrote:
Del you seem to think what they have done to the heresey is a good thing so I makes me doubt your opinion on the quality of the current background story. The setting needed a shake up. That’s way better than the dumbing down they have done to the heresey in order to milk a cash cow.

I remember reading the first few HH novels and they were good because they were focused, told a coherent story and covered an event that we already had some info on. Then 50 + books later we have so much bloat and filler that DBZ would be blushing. I get that they want to give every legion something to do but it's gone way to far.

Well sell ten good books when fifty plus cruddy ones will do the job!

I was all for advancing the setting, but I don't think it's been handled well. Splitting the galaxy is good, Cadia falling was necessary and I support bringing back Guilliman too, but primaris marines really feel like a mistake. Simply phasing out the smaller existing marine models would have been fine.

That's not good writing. That's idiotic hack work that completely misses the point of the Horus Heresy itself, and the fight between the Emperor and Horus and why the Emperor didn't outright kill Horus in the start. Master of Mankind, like the rest of the Horus Heresy, is nothing more than literal hack work pumped out to meet deadlines and has as much claim to being quality literature as a comic book. You can't have a tragedy with constant, needless twists serving purely to string things along longer that undermine the entire point of tragedy itself. If the Emperor is an emotionless robot the Horus Heresy itself is worthless because the story lacks any value if there is no personal connection between him and the Primarchs that prevents him from outright killing them. It also calls into question of the Emperor as, if he did not love his sons, there is no reason to leave half of them alive when they are drooling incompetent lunatics (at least as presented in the Horus Heresy) that shouldn't be let anywhere near the Legions.

Of all the lore changes, the worst has been the Horus Heresy as it's a subject that should have only been executed by the most carefully planned and highest quality control ever shown by GW. And done by the smallest team of authors as possible to ensure consistent character arcs instead of infuriating "personal takes" that result in borderline bipolar personalities for characters as they change authors. As-is, it butchers the vestiges of good writing there was with the old Horus Heresy mythos while replacing it with something that doesn't even make coherent sense. It then throws in random twists to keep you reading and prevent you from realizing you are paying through the nose for hundreds of pages of mindless bolter fire that is little different from the previous book which mostly consisted of mindless bolter fire.

 Snake Tortoise wrote:
I was all for advancing the setting, but I don't think it's been handled well. Splitting the galaxy is good, Cadia falling was necessary and I support bringing back Guilliman too, but primaris marines really feel like a mistake. Simply phasing out the smaller existing marine models would have been fine.

There would have been riots if they got rid of tacticals for intercessors, even if they said "you can still use your tactical models, but we are switching over to the true scale marines". They are doing it slowly instead of all at once, there will be no more old scale marines produced, and im betting the next codex will be purely primaris stuff once the line has bulked up big enough.

@Wyzilla

In my opinion, the Horus Heresy books were not the tragedy of Horus, his brothers and the Emperor. It was the tragedy of Loken and his friends. The Primarchs were only accessories to the real tragedy, that of a bunch of Space Marines and humans who lose their friends, their heroes and their hope of a bright future.

I, for one, embrace the new lore. Albeit the Primaris one lacks on the quality material

Andykp wrote:
Del you seem to think what they have done to the heresey is a good thing so I makes me doubt your opinion on the quality of the current background story. The setting needed a shake up. That’s way better than the dumbing down they have done to the heresey in order to milk a cash cow.

I haven't said anything about the HH. I have a lot of problems about the HH, like how there is no direction, that writers can write whatever they want, I even went on a rant about the ruinstorm, so can you not make strawman arguments.

HoundsofDemos wrote:

Andykp wrote:
Del you seem to think what they have done to the heresey is a good thing so I makes me doubt your opinion on the quality of the current background story. The setting needed a shake up. That’s way better than the dumbing down they have done to the heresey in order to milk a cash cow.

I remember reading the first few HH novels and they were good because they were focused, told a coherent story and covered an event that we already had some info on. Then 50 + books later we have so much bloat and filler that DBZ would be blushing. I get that they want to give every legion something to do but it's gone way to far.

Agreed. I think if you keep to the main story arc, theyre mostly fairly decent reads. I avoid the compilations of short stories usually, and focus on the main story elements.

40k. It's kind of all or nothing when you want to advance it.

Stuff has been retconned since the get-go. If you've got access to a copy of Rogue Trader, have a read through. Little of it has survived to the present day intact.

And when the background was originally being developed (over a number of years), it was all very 'two minutes to midnight', with the balance of power being a very fine thing. It's hard to deal a dolorous background blow to one faction, without letting the others run rampant in the power vacuum.

The Rift achieves advancement for all quite nicely. Because it's threat to every faction. For Chaos, they've got battle mad Orks making straight for it to find The Best Fights. For The Imperium, it's split their Turf in two. For the Eldar? Who knows what it's done to The WebWay. Nids? No actual biomass, and no way around it. Necrons? Job of waking and uniting the Tomb Worlds just got a lot, lot harder.

And remember, we're already a couple of hundred years into Guilliman's Ressurection. Whilst I feel they could've worked with that a bit better on the clarity front, it's still a significant period of time.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It's hard to deal a dolorous background blow to one faction, without letting the others run rampant in the power vacuum.

Why do you have to prevent other factions being able to run rampant?

Because otherwise it becomes about everyone fighting That One Thing. That's a difficult position to pull back from.

You can shift the balance in such a way that everyone remains challenged, and nobody has a free run at things. And that's what they've gone for in my opinion.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
40k. It's kind of all or nothing when you want to advance it.

Stuff has been retconned since the get-go. If you've got access to a copy of Rogue Trader, have a read through. Little of it has survived to the present day intact.

And when the background was originally being developed (over a number of years), it was all very 'two minutes to midnight', with the balance of power being a very fine thing. It's hard to deal a dolorous background blow to one faction, without letting the others run rampant in the power vacuum.

The Rift achieves advancement for all quite nicely. Because it's threat to every faction. For Chaos, they've got battle mad Orks making straight for it to find The Best Fights. For The Imperium, it's split their Turf in two. For the Eldar? Who knows what it's done to The WebWay. Nids? No actual biomass, and no way around it. Necrons? Job of waking and uniting the Tomb Worlds just got a lot, lot harder.

And remember, we're already a couple of hundred years into Guilliman's Ressurection. Whilst I feel they could've worked with that a bit better on the clarity front, it's still a significant period of time.

Its not just the amount, its the amount in such a small period of time and wanting them to lay ground work and not be lazy writers, I mean the amount of ex-machinas in the dark Imperium is ridiculous, most of which are all tied together. I mean anyone that says the new lore was well thought out and written are out of their minds.

Be fair dude. You're entitled not to like it, but to suggest it's inherently awful isn't exactly true.

Here, we've seen a build up over two or three years, culminating in a galactic calamity which affects all the races.

That's not a small period of time at all.