Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Rumour has it GW fethed up the points cost for the new Havocs ..

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Rumour has it GW fethed up the points cost for the new Havocs ..

Just like the Oblitz? lol. I doubt the messed up the havocs. They did go up a point.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Silver144 wrote:
So the t5 and ignore heavy for the same cost as devastators?
How much those bonuses should cost, loyalists should be like 10pts then? Or are they too short and old to have equal rules.

Or any other heavy weapons specialist that is unable to bypass the heavy weapon rule. Or any tank ffs? How on earth can they justify that a dude in power armour with spurs is somehow more stable firing a massive heavy weapon than a tank?! Absolute nonsense.

It can make sense if you don't look at it as which platform is more "stable" but rather which platform is better able to readjust their aim after moving.
A dude holding the gun is probably going to be better at that than a dude in a box controlling the gun "remotely".

Arguably, though, most vehicles should have AI that helps this, but because of Grimdark only select vehicles are worthy of such AI systems via Machine Spirit
I think it's perfectly fine for most vehicles to suffer -1 to hit for moving with Heavy Weapons while select units like Havocs and Devs have special rules to mitigate it.
The problem it that those vehicles are often overcosted.

I'm not so concerned about Devs not getting to ignore the -1. They do have Signum and Cherib.
But if Havocs really are T5, Devs should be too. After all they also have reinforced armour.

-

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Rumour has it GW fethed up the points cost for the new Havocs ..

What is the origin of this rumour?

 Crimson wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Rumour has it GW fethed up the points cost for the new Havocs ..

What is the origin of this rumour?

Dno. A mate told me about it on fb.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Rumour has it GW fethed up the points cost for the new Havocs ..

What is the origin of this rumour?

Dno. A mate told me about it on fb.

Sounds totally legit.

 Crimson wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Rumour has it GW fethed up the points cost for the new Havocs ..

What is the origin of this rumour?

Dno. A mate told me about it on fb.

Sounds totally legit.

It sounds more realistic to me than the singular point increase given they messed up Oblit point costs. Take it or leave it, I'm not interested enough to verify.

How did they mess up the Obliterator cost?

 Crimson wrote:
How did they mess up the Obliterator cost?

They have the old 3-6, 65 ppm points cost in the back of the book, but the datasheet is the correct 1-3, implying they should have the 1-3, 115 ppm cost in the back.

I was unaware of any issue with the Havocs points (other than the fact they are insanely good for their points).

I guess one thing about Havocs is they can't take ablative wounds, and you are going to Max out at 12 heavy weapons in an army with them.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
How did they mess up the Obliterator cost?

They have the old 3-6, 65 ppm points cost in the back of the book, but the datasheet is the correct 1-3, implying they should have the 1-3, 115 ppm cost in the back.

I was unaware of any issue with the Havocs points (other than the fact they are insanely good for their points).

I guess one thing about Havocs is they can't take ablative wounds, and you are going to Max out at 12 heavy weapons in an army with them.

Yeah, it's up in the air if the old or new Oblits cost is real, since GW. New seems likely as old would make them ridiculously broken, but again this is GW.

Haven't heard anything with the Havocs since they went up a point.

People claiming a 1W 3+ save model that will cost at minimun 24 points with no extra wounds is insanely good (And you can't have more than 15 in your army, with only 12 of them having heavy weapons) just because it ignores penalties for moving and firing heavy weapons (When Genstealer Cults has that and more as a Cult tactic) and because it has T5 (And we all know how resilient Plague Marines are with their T5 and 5+ fnp)

 Galas wrote:
People claiming a 1W 3+ save model that will cost at minimun 24 points with no extra wounds is insanely good (And you can't have more than 15 in your army, with only 12 of them having heavy weapons) just because it ignores penalties for moving and firing heavy weapons (When Genstealer Cults has that and more as a Cult tactic) and because it has T5 (And we all know how resilient Plague Marines are with their T5 and 5+ fnp)

Dark Reapers manage to be silly good as a 34pt model with 1W/3+ armour and T3.

To be fair Dark Reapers have a lot of advantages Havocs don't beyond just move-and-fire, but it's certainly possible for expensive single-wound models to be powerful. I haven't seen the pricing but I'd be surprised if Slaaneshi Havocs under shoot-again can't pop into LOS and make their points back immediately.

Wayniac wrote:

Yeah, it's up in the air if the old or new Oblits cost is real, since GW. New seems likely as old would make them ridiculously broken, but again this is GW.

Haven't heard anything with the Havocs since they went up a point.

The Oblit thing is most likely them just forgetting to update the points, but until it is errated, it is a valid cost. It is harder to imagine that there would be a mistake with the Havocs, as they actually did update their points.

Wayniac wrote:
All I know is I am psyched for this. 5 Havocs with 4 of the new rotor cannon is 32 24" S5 AP -1 shots that you can make with +1 to hit (Dark Apostle's prayer), and re-roll 1s or all fails (lord/abby), and even +1 to wound (VOTLW).

And you can double that with Endless Cacophony to 64 shots.

Get fethed, hordes.

If it comes like this, it will get nerfed sooner than we think.
Don't go overboard with buying those models.

I think it's definitely hand-wavium tech, and I'm not sure I agree with some of it. As a CSM player, however, I will say there was zero reason to take havocs previously.

Unlike (as mentioned above) Devastators, Havocs had zero special rules, they just carried heavy weapons. So you were better off scattering them in tac squads, or rapiers, or predators, etc.

These rules, while slightly bizarre, now make them a definite take in some instances. They do turn the screw a bit in normal CSM (as do most things now).

 Galef wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Silver144 wrote:
So the t5 and ignore heavy for the same cost as devastators?
How much those bonuses should cost, loyalists should be like 10pts then? Or are they too short and old to have equal rules.

Or any other heavy weapons specialist that is unable to bypass the heavy weapon rule. Or any tank ffs? How on earth can they justify that a dude in power armour with spurs is somehow more stable firing a massive heavy weapon than a tank?! Absolute nonsense.

It can make sense if you don't look at it as which platform is more "stable" but rather which platform is better able to readjust their aim after moving.
A dude holding the gun is probably going to be better at that than a dude in a box controlling the gun "remotely".

Arguably, though, most vehicles should have AI that helps this, but because of Grimdark only select vehicles are worthy of such AI systems via Machine Spirit
I think it's perfectly fine for most vehicles to suffer -1 to hit for moving with Heavy Weapons while select units like Havocs and Devs have special rules to mitigate it.
The problem it that those vehicles are often overcosted.

I'm not so concerned about Devs not getting to ignore the -1. They do have Signum and Cherib.
But if Havocs really are T5, Devs should be too. After all they also have reinforced armour.

-

Not sure you need an AI to help out; primitive analog stabilizers (where there's a mechanical layer in between the gun aiming controls and the physical gun that compensates for the motion of the vehicle using a gyroscope as a reference) were first fielded during WWII. You might also expect the Tau (who don't have any qualms about using AI), the Eldar (who might take a lead from whatever system the DE use to make a Dark Lance an Assault weapon when mounted on a vehicle), or the Necrons (who are pretty advanced, or so I've heard) to have come up with something.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Should marine devs also get the ability to shoot twice then?

That's not an innate ability.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Galas wrote:
People claiming a 1W 3+ save model that will cost at minimun 24 points with no extra wounds is insanely good (And you can't have more than 15 in your army, with only 12 of them having heavy weapons) just because it ignores penalties for moving and firing heavy weapons (When Genstealer Cults has that and more as a Cult tactic) and because it has T5 (And we all know how resilient Plague Marines are with their T5 and 5+ fnp)

Dark Reapers manage to be silly good as a 34pt model with 1W/3+ armour and T3.

To be fair Dark Reapers have a lot of advantages Havocs don't beyond just move-and-fire, but it's certainly possible for expensive single-wound models to be powerful. I haven't seen the pricing but I'd be surprised if Slaaneshi Havocs under shoot-again can't pop into LOS and make their points back immediately.

All the buffs and stratagems you can put in Havocs will be much better in many other units, with more firepower, that endure more damage and with more mobility.
The reality here is that Havocs were trash tier before. Now they received two decent buffs (The T5 is much less relevant because Havocs are a purely offensive unit) and one big nerf (The lost of ablative wounds). I seriously doubt they will be OP.

And as a loyalist with a good amount of devastators, lol. I wouldn't change my +1 to hit, shoot again with one weapon, rerolling 1's DA with 2-3 ablative wounds devastators for the new Havocs.

And I'm all in favour of bespoken rules to allow units to be more different. As Elbow said, maybe is more fluffy to have your heavy weapon squads to be exactly the same as your normal guys because they are actually just the same unit buth with a different weapon-configuration. But that is not only boring, it makes nearly impossible to make one unit balanced with the other because they have nearly the same tactical role, and one will be more efficient.
Also, tanks (Even light tanks like predators) having as their primary weapons one weapon that can be carried by one super soldier or two normal humans with a tripod (A predator with Lasscannons) is just horsegak.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Galas wrote:
People claiming a 1W 3+ save model that will cost at minimun 24 points with no extra wounds is insanely good (And you can't have more than 15 in your army, with only 12 of them having heavy weapons) just because it ignores penalties for moving and firing heavy weapons (When Genstealer Cults has that and more as a Cult tactic) and because it has T5 (And we all know how resilient Plague Marines are with their T5 and 5+ fnp)

Dark Reapers manage to be silly good as a 34pt model with 1W/3+ armour and T3.

To be fair Dark Reapers have a lot of advantages Havocs don't beyond just move-and-fire, but it's certainly possible for expensive single-wound models to be powerful. I haven't seen the pricing but I'd be surprised if Slaaneshi Havocs under shoot-again can't pop into LOS and make their points back immediately.

Of course you are right, but we all know the weapons Havocs have and they aren't the ones Dark Reapers had. The only thing I can be being actually good is a unit of Havocs in a rhino with rottor cannons to munch hordes. But at the same time is a fething rhino. With 5 (Or 10 lol) marines inside. I can't be afraid of that.

 wuestenfux wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
All I know is I am psyched for this. 5 Havocs with 4 of the new rotor cannon is 32 24" S5 AP -1 shots that you can make with +1 to hit (Dark Apostle's prayer), and re-roll 1s or all fails (lord/abby), and even +1 to wound (VOTLW).

And you can double that with Endless Cacophony to 64 shots.

Get fethed, hordes.

If it comes like this, it will get nerfed sooner than we think.
Don't go overboard with buying those models.

Especially given that with the pictures I've seen of the sprues it looks like they're going full-on Skitarii here ("Four guns if you build two squads of five! One of each option included in the box!") and the rotor cannon bit is going to be $15 or $20 on the secondary market.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Should marine devs also get the ability to shoot twice then?

That's not an innate ability.

If it were to exist it'd probably be an Imperial Fists stratagem.

 AnomanderRake wrote:


Especially given that with the pictures I've seen of the sprues it looks like they're going full-on Skitarii here ("Four guns if you build two squads of five! One of each option included in the box!") and the rotor cannon bit is going to be $15 or $20 on the secondary market.

You can get heresy rotor cannons from forgeworld - should work just fine with a little work.

 Galas wrote:
People claiming a 1W 3+ save model that will cost at minimun 24 points with no extra wounds is insanely good (And you can't have more than 15 in your army, with only 12 of them having heavy weapons) just because it ignores penalties for moving and firing heavy weapons (When Genstealer Cults has that and more as a Cult tactic) and because it has T5 (And we all know how resilient Plague Marines are with their T5 and 5+ fnp)

I think this is more a "its not fair if CSM have something better than their Imperial equivalent" thread than an objective look at the unit.

Jump out with 4 reaper chaincannons and you are going to hurt something. But as you say, its 150 points for 5 T5 3+ wounds. I don't see how you are ever going to get a second volley off unless your opponent isn't paying attention. Are we really saying they should give up even more points when they invariably die?

I agree though that the Oblits points are almost certainly a mistake. They are quite comically broken.

 Galef wrote:
But if Havocs really are T5, Devs should be too. After all they also have reinforced armour.

Havocs don't get T5 because they have reinforced armour. They get T5 because they're slowly merging with their weapons, essentially turning into mini-Obliterators.

 Galas wrote:
...And I'm all in favour of bespoken rules to allow units to be more different. As Elbow said, maybe is more fluffy to have your heavy weapon squads to be exactly the same as your normal guys because they are actually just the same unit buth with a different weapon-configuration. But that is not only boring, it makes nearly impossible to make one unit balanced with the other because they have nearly the same tactical role, and one will be more efficient.
Also, tanks (Even light tanks like predators) having as their primary weapons one weapon that can be carried by one super soldier or two normal humans with a tripod (A predator with Lasscannons) is just horsegak.

Maybe. The one gun/five versus four guns at any squad size certainly makes Tacticals/CSM and Devastators/Havocs look very similar, but the bolter-only Tacticals/heavy weapon-only Devastators in the Legion list and with the Primaris (Intercessors/Hellblasters) seem to make the squads very distinct without needing any special rules at all.

Well, yeah, when the units have totally different equipement of course they are different and have different roles without special rules, but when they have the same weapons and the only change is in distribution, thats a problem.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:


Especially given that with the pictures I've seen of the sprues it looks like they're going full-on Skitarii here ("Four guns if you build two squads of five! One of each option included in the box!") and the rotor cannon bit is going to be $15 or $20 on the secondary market.

You can get heresy rotor cannons from forgeworld - should work just fine with a little work.

Possibly. Size comparison might end up off; the Heresy rotor cannon is really small-calibre since it's S3. And if the new Havocs are too much bigger you'll have to futz with the ammo feed or it won't go all the way around. Older assault cannon barrels (the Ravenwing upgrade sprue comes with two since you're supposed to be able to build Sammael's Land Speeder off that frame) might look better.

Tyel wrote:

 Galas wrote:
People claiming a 1W 3+ save model that will cost at minimun 24 points with no extra wounds is insanely good (And you can't have more than 15 in your army, with only 12 of them having heavy weapons) just because it ignores penalties for moving and firing heavy weapons (When Genstealer Cults has that and more as a Cult tactic) and because it has T5 (And we all know how resilient Plague Marines are with their T5 and 5+ fnp)

I think this is more a "its not fair if CSM have something better than their Imperial equivalent" thread than an objective look at the unit.

Jump out with 4 reaper chaincannons and you are going to hurt something. But as you say, its 150 points for 5 T5 3+ wounds. I don't see how you are ever going to get a second volley off unless your opponent isn't paying attention. Are we really saying they should give up even more points when they invariably die?

I agree though that the Oblits points are almost certainly a mistake. They are quite comically broken.

Well also consider people are expecting to run them with an apostle and a lord, so we're talking about 200 extra points as well as 3 CP.

64 shots with all those buffs will kill something like 44 IS.

For that same price you can get about two Tank Commanders with PGCs, which is 80 S5 shots on a tougher platform and no CP spend.

As a 1ksons player I am super salty about the soulreaper cannon mark 2 that the new havocs get. In fact I am really just super salty about this whole release lol.

I wonder if I can convert the 30K heavy bolter into a rotor cannon by using assault cannon barrels. Needless to say I have plenty of those sitting around and since the HB is pretty much useless for havocs now.

 bullyboy wrote:
I wonder if I can convert the 30K heavy bolter into a rotor cannon by using assault cannon barrels. Needless to say I have plenty of those sitting around and since the HB is pretty much useless for havocs now.

Hardly. +12" range is pretty important.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
I wonder if I can convert the 30K heavy bolter into a rotor cannon by using assault cannon barrels. Needless to say I have plenty of those sitting around and since the HB is pretty much useless for havocs now.

Hardly. +12" range is pretty important.

with a 30" tactical range for the rotary cannon, no way is anyone taking HBs for their havocs. The meta of hordes just doesn't care about 3 shot HBs, IMHO of course.