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I believe TT said the rotary cannon thing was 20 points, that's also double the cost of a heavy bolter. That's not insignificant...and with the 24" range it's probably close to appropriate cost-wise.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
I wonder if I can convert the 30K heavy bolter into a rotor cannon by using assault cannon barrels. Needless to say I have plenty of those sitting around and since the HB is pretty much useless for havocs now.

Hardly. +12" range is pretty important.

12" extra range doesn't make up for a 62.5% reduction in firepower in this instance.

If they didn't have move and fire, maybe. But now they can zip about the battlefield without penalty, NOBODY will bother with HB Havocs outside of the most casual lists.

GW probably *wrongly* assumed that Heavy Bolter CSM would have access to the Hellfire Shells Stratagem and thought that would even out the costs. Nevermind the fact that the humongous increase in shots basically even the math out and doesn't cost a CP.

Don't HB also have the d3 MW stratagem?
The change is... -12" of range and 100% of price increase (Ignoring the opportunity cost, because with the Rottor Canon you have much more firepower in a havoc squad even if its more expensive, so better for buffs) for having 8 shots instead of 3.

 Galas wrote:
Don't HB also have the d3 MW stratagem?
The change is... -12" of range and 100% of price increase (Ignoring the opportunity cost, because with the Rottor Canon you have much more firepower in a havoc squad even if its more expensive, so better for buffs) for having 8 shots instead of 3.

Loyalist does, chaos does not.

 Galas wrote:
Don't HB also have the d3 MW stratagem?
The change is... -12" of range and 100% of price increase (Ignoring the opportunity cost, because with the Rottor Canon you have much more firepower in a havoc squad even if its more expensive, so better for buffs) for having 8 shots instead of 3.

That is what I was referencing in my post. And no, CSM do not. It would have sort of tipped the scales otherwise.

Are we absolutely sure that the CSM don't get that stratagem in the new codex?

According to the WC article, the Havoc kit only comes with 1 Reaper chaincannon but 2 of everything else.
So outside of bitz ordering, most players won't have enough to do full Chaincannon units.

I think it's also been confirmed that they cost twice what a HB does, so you really should compare 1 Chaincannon to 2 HBs. In that case, you trade only 2 shots for extra range.
Chaincannon is still the clear choice, but I don't think the difference is as great as everyone seems to be making it.

You could always do 2 HBs as ablative wound models

-

A lot of people will kitbash them. Also Forgeworld do rotor cannons.

The proper bit will be very expensive on the secondary market though. You'll probably be spending the best part of the price of the lot again to get a full unit with chaincannons if you don't convert.

 Galef wrote:

I think it's also been confirmed that they cost twice what a HB does, so you really should compare 1 Chaincannon to 2 HBs.

No you shouldn't! Neither heavy bolters or reaper cannons do anything without a Havoc holding them. You must include the cost of the marine to your calculations.

 Crimson wrote:

 Galef wrote:

I think it's also been confirmed that they cost twice what a HB does, so you really should compare 1 Chaincannon to 2 HBs.

No you shouldn't! Neither heavy bolters or reaper cannons do anything without a Havoc holding them. You must include the cost of the marine to your calculations.

Indeed. And when you fail a save and lose 1 model, you only lose 3 shots instead of 8. And by being more than 24" away, you should be taking less saves overall.
So yeah, taking more than just the weapon into account is wise.

I'm not saying squads with 4 Reapers WON'T be the new hotness, I'm just saying adding a HB or 2 in the unit isn't a completely garbage idea.
But probably only for units taking Las/ML/Autocannon rather than alongside Reapers

-

You can put those Heavy Bolter bits to good use by sawing the barrel off and putting an Assault Cannon barrel in its place. The Chaingun and Heavy Bolter are largely the same.

So let's see: A full chaincannon squad is 150 pts, a full HB squad is 110 pts. Those 40 pts take you from 12 shots to 32 shots... HBs ain't looking good. It'd been better for balance if the chaincannon was S4 AP- instead of being almost identical to the HB but with more shots. (and less range)

Dandelion wrote:
So let's see: A full chaincannon squad is 150 pts, a full HB squad is 110 pts. Those 40 pts take you from 12 shots to 32 shots... HBs ain't looking good. It'd been better for balance if the chaincannon was S4 AP- instead of being almost identical to the HB but with more shots. (and less range)

Yea HBs are quite dead without a stratagem. Chaincannons are glass cannon-y, but there are so many ways around that.

Agreed. As much as I wish HBs had decent use, something needs to change. Making Astartes HBs RF3 would be a nice alternative for all units involved, no just Havocs/Devs

Top kek at 1 chaincannon but 2 of everything else. Gotta sell more of those havoc boxes.

It does have me thinking though the Chaincannon synergizes better with a regular CSM squad. It's the same range as your bolters and yes, you'll have the penalty to move and fire if you don't move you're getting out extra shots for shredding hordes which seems to be its intended use case.

This lets your havocs sit back and do a long range thing as they should, while being able to reposition due to now being able to move and fire if they need to adjust to get a bead on targets.

Right now I'm thinking something like 2x 5-man CSM squads with 1 chaincannon, and then 2x 5-man havoc squads with like 2 Lascannon and 2 Autocannon or something like that, decidedly anti-vehicle. The ROF on the chaincannon offsets the 4+ BS for moving. That might actually be a solid case for a squad of 10 with plasma + chaincannon, combi-plasma on the champion. That's a lot of firepower on the move that can deal with a variety of threats.

IMHO Havocs with Chaincannons are actually very good to put into transports because they don't have the -1 to hit when they disembark. So put them in a rhino with 5 basic CSM (Or chosen. Can chosen be taken in units of two like company veterans)

To be honest I'm glad that people is actually talking about using Space Marines. I don't think any of this units are gonna be in lists that end up in the top 20 in LVO but ey they look actually competitive outside of the top 3 lists.

 Crimson wrote:

 Galef wrote:

I think it's also been confirmed that they cost twice what a HB does, so you really should compare 1 Chaincannon to 2 HBs.

No you shouldn't! Neither heavy bolters or reaper cannons do anything without a Havoc holding them. You must include the cost of the marine to your calculations.

Yes, which means you should consider the cost of the rest of the Havok's statline. You're not getting a token with a gun and a 3+ BS, trying to math is as such is ludicrous.

Bolters are FREE guys!

We can have infinite Bolters in our army instead of each Reaper Chaincannon.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
So, Havocs can now move and fire without penalty.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/03/23/23rd-mar-heretic-astartes-focus-the-emperors-childrengw-homepage-post-1/

This is kind of, well, disappointing. Why can a guy carrying a heavy weapon shoot better than a tank?

[Also, if a man can carry a lascannon, why does a predator have a lascannon as a main gun?]

Short answer: Sales driven rules.
Long answer: Sales driven rules.

 Strg Alt wrote:

Short answer: Sales driven rules.
Long answer: Sales driven rules.

LOL, no.

 Crimson wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:

Short answer: Sales driven rules.
Long answer: Sales driven rules.

LOL, no.

I mean, sort of.

They have new rules clearly because someone went "ooh, cool new sculpts! Let's give them some new rules!".

But the idea that they were made strong to drive sales I'm not convinced about at all. Loads of new kits come with underwhelming rules and don't see competitive play. The fact some are above the curve seems more or less coincidental.

 Stux wrote:
Loads of new kits come with underwhelming rules and don't see competitive play. The fact some are above the curve seems more or less coincidental.

Yep.

I don't think HBs are awful statistically - but they are decidedly average and as a result don't really do anything. Your havocs are still a points pinata at over 20 points per wound. In the modern game 24"+6" move is typically enough to target anything relevant that isn't LOSed, and you are in the same boat regardless there.

So, why does GW focus new rules on the units it does? Who plays chaos space marines that was like:

"Damnit, if only I had a more dakka-esqe light infantry that could eat up my Heavy slots."

To those who don't believe the new Havoc rules are sales related I ask if you believe it's a coincidence that the new, previously unheard of weapon just happens to be the best from a damage output (and likely, therefore, competitive) standpoint and just happens to be the only singular heavy weapon in the new kit?

What an odd coincidence indeed.

GW might claim otherwise, but they absolutely give products better rules if they want them to sell. Look at the Castellan. Sometimes they miss the mark or, indeed, don't give great rules to a model (because they know it'll sell regardless).

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So, why does GW focus new rules on the units it does? Who plays chaos space marines that was like:

"Damnit, if only I had a more dakka-esqe light infantry that could eat up my Heavy slots."

Most likely because someone had what they thought was a cool idea.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
To those who don't believe the new Havoc rules are sales related I ask if you believe it's a coincidence that the new, previously unheard of weapon just happens to be the best from a damage output (and likely, therefore, competitive) standpoint and just happens to be the only singular heavy weapon in the new kit?

Most likely yes. If new models consistently had powerful rules you would have a case, but that most definitely is not the case. Or how are you liken your new OP Ork buggies?

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
To those who don't believe the new Havoc rules are sales related I ask if you believe it's a coincidence that the new, previously unheard of weapon just happens to be the best from a damage output (and likely, therefore, competitive) standpoint and just happens to be the only singular heavy weapon in the new kit?

What an odd coincidence indeed.

GW might claim otherwise, but they absolutely give products better rules if they want them to sell. Look at the Castellan. Sometimes they miss the mark or, indeed, don't give great rules to a model (because they know it'll sell regardless).

You know by this reasoing you'll always end up being right, no?
If a model comes with great rules "It was a marketing ploy"
If a model comes with bad rules "They knew it would sell nonetheless"


We have proof sometimes the direction gives order to the rules writters to make something OP like 7th Wraitknight, as that old GW rules writer addmited on his reddit AMA. But I don't think most of the time thats what really happens. I can see how in this specific case it could have been something planned. Maybe something like "If we are gonna greenlight doing this old resin kit in plastic then we'll need for it to sell well enough".

I look forward to the post in a bout a year when the edition changes over and vehicles get the ability to move and fire heavy weapons without penalty and everyone will be complaining about the Havoc's then-redundant rule or something.