Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hmm well - bad season does not improve much - good job its ending.

Scorpions transition from super accurate repeating weapons to slow and ineffective....sheesh the writters are getting really lazy.

Quite amusing how the Golden Company were pointless....

Surprised they actually did the seige right, - thats how most seiges ended -The city was offered the chance ot surrender - they refused - thats usually means no quarter in historical battles.

Usually a few days of rape and pillage then the city burns - not by dragons but drunken looters but same end result.

Did anyone expect the Dothraki or the rest of the army to behave differently when they got in. That Grey Worm was not still full of rage.....

Of course Dany now does not have a capital and now "without an man" (really writting guys will slip into despair.

Probably did not help that every piece of advice from Tyrion and Varys in Westros was an error. Sad to see Varys go though :(

 yakface wrote:

A lot of people are describing Dany's decision to raze the city as some crazy impulsive decision she made at the spur of the moment when she heard the bells, because she went 'mad'.

I didn't see that at all. I saw a very calculated decision that she made back on Dragonstone, that she was actually quite reluctant to carry through with, but knew that she had to if she wanted to have any chance of ruling Westeros.

Because once the truth about Jon Snow got out (thanks to Sansa, Tyrion and especially Varys), she knew that her legitimate claim to the Iron Throne was now gone while Jon Snow lives. That means even if she took the Iron Throne, people would continually question/doubt her rule except by absolute force.

She gave Jon one last chance to be 'with her', presumably living as her subservient King after the war, and he shunned her. At that point she knew that her only option to rule Westeros post-war was for the people of Westeros to fear her absolutely, to the point that even Jon's true lineage would make no difference...they'd be too afraid of what she would do to stand up to her.

So at that point, before the battle even began, she had decided that she would have to raze King's Landing to prove her strength and instill fear in the people of Westeros. I felt like she even paused, waiting for the Lannisters to surrender (waiting for the bells) before truly starting the horrific demolition and mass murder, because if she had really started doing that before the surrender, then the impact of what she was doing would have been justified in the minds of some people ("it had to be done, Cersei wouldn't surrender" they would say). She wanted to make it 100% clear to everyone who managed to survive that the city had surrendered and she had 'won' before she went on to 'prove her point' that she was going to be the one true monarch post-war, regardless of Jon Snow's lineage.

In short, I have no problem at all with her choice. I don't see her as 'going mad' at all...perhaps utilizing that image to help justify her actions to others, for sure, but it wasn't an emotional decision at all.

Agreed (mostly) - Dany is now playing the game without restraint and it can't escape her notice that as soon as she does so - she wins....

I don't even think Jon would have been the subseriant partner - she was obviously prepared to do pretty much anything he asked.....slightly annoying shades of the lovesick Girl GRM suddenly transformed her in to in Book 4/5

Every time Varys and Tyrion urged restraint (often against character) those she loved suffered. She also showed that she could have taken Kings Landing on her own months ago - but was foolishly advised not to. If she had attacked then - casualties would have been minimal - a few soliders on the wall and in the red keep and job done.

But they kept urging her to delay, hesitate, restrain herself and thats why Kings Landing is burning. Burn a few people and a city now and let the rest serve her quietly - its also a warning to Sansa and co - come and at me and you will burn.

The writters have had to twist alot of the story to destroy virtually her entire support mechanism.....but now that they have we just have to likely suffer a series of "moral" lessons next week ending with a "righteous" killing of Dany and /or dragon...... after all without the latter she is just a girl.... poor ending I think

Peaceful seige is a amusing idea at all......

That city would have burned that night even if she had not done it.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 yakface wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
You also have to remember that the show was always intended to end in the same place as the books. But it also condensed or cut a lot of the character development from the books with key events, characters, and conversations just not appearing in the show. Danny was probably always meant to go mad and destroy Kings Landing. But we are not seeing all the piece of the puzzle that get her to that place. And thats why the show just stopped being good the farther it got away from the books.

Or you know, she didn't go mad. She made the only logical choice she could to move forward given the crap circumstance she ended up in.

If you look at her face before she goes on the bombing run of the city, she doesn't show rage or madness. She is almost crying, because she hates what she feels like she has to do. Going mad would mean that she doesn't realize (or doesn't care) about what one does. Her emotions do not show that at all.

I mean, we'll find out in the final episode whether or not they actually show her as losing her mind at all. But my personal reading of what we saw in this episode was not any kind of madness, but rather her knowing she had to do something horrible in order for her to finally gain what she fought nearly her whole life to achieve.

It's not a logical decision at all though because a queen with enemies everywhere is a queen whose reign won't last long. You're trying to argue that the only winning strategy left for her is to try to rule through unquestionable force. How did that work out for Aerys? How did that work out for Jofferey? How did that work out for Cersei, as this episode just showed? Being a ruthless tyrant guarantees nothing except for a stab in the back.

"It was the only logical strategy left" doesn't apply when we have empirical evidence and history (all in-universe) pointing to that strategy being a failing one. So you have two options for the character. Either a) she's just insane and is thinking irrationally, or b) she's stupid and she doesn't understand political strategy at all.

Burn everyone who resists worked for the Targyrians for how many centuries?? Which dynasty is everyone claming descent from to get legitmacy. Plenty of rulers rule by force - doesn;t make it right - doesn;t make it less effective.

She still has plenty of allies - who now know that she will do what is needed to keep them from turnign on her - ie Sansa and her growing empire. Dorn is pledging support and again if they had been there - would have been as happy as the Dothraki to sack Kings Landing.

Poltical strategy was the province of Varys and Tyrion whose suggestions since she arrived ALL resulted in disaster - its only when she went burning things that gak got done and friends/"chidren" did not die. How many on her side died on the assault on Winterfell.

However this is all due to the highly dubious plot choices for this seasn - which may or may not have been driven by how GRM wants it to end. Might watch it next week to see how bad the ending is - a braver desicion would have been to end the show at the end of this epsiode - all the important plots were resolved.....

How

did that work out for Aerys? How did that work out for Jofferey? How did that work out for Cersei, as this episode just showed? Being a ruthless tyrant guarantees nothing except for a stab in the back.

And how did the opposite work out for anyone not being ruthless? How did that work out for Tommen, Robb, or Robert or the king of Dorn?

Being "nice" does not mean you rule will be long and happy any more than being "ruthless"

Another thing people forget is that Dany has learnt throughout her journey in life that the most effective thing to do is in fact burn the bad guy....

Abusive brother -obediance, threats, reason and pacfiicaiton doesn;t work - pot of boiling gold - job done
Witch killed your unborn child and husband - burn her and yourself - get Dragons
Captured by wizards - burn them
Evil slavers - burn them - multiple times to finally get the message across but it works in the end.
Oath breakers don't bend the knee - burn them
Enemy convoy - burn them
Enemy fleet - burn it
Dragon killing balistae - burn them

In fact the only time its not worked is with the Night King

If it turns out that a white, male, true-born heir is the saviour after all, it will feel like the show has missed its own point.

Thats fair - I do think it will be very disapointing when Jon is the only one left standing and reluctantly has to take the throne cos "mad women" .

The Missandrei comments I think in that article are however very pertinent - her only role in this season has to be sacrificed to push Dany (and Grey Worm) towards her (and his) darker (and much more successful) impulses.

alkso on Jon Snow - very accurate

Sure, he hasn’t resorted to solving his problems with explosions, which is certainly a tick in the plus column, but he’s also a notoriously terrible politician, and last time he was put in charge of something he got murdered in a mutiny. None of his major battles were won by him – Sansa bailed him out in the Battle of the Bastards, and Arya saved the day in the Battle for Winterfell. Jon’s only qualifications for the throne are that he’s a Targaryen, and a bloke.

He will be assassinated or overthrown in months.....

 Galas wrote:
I think the article is losing the grasp of whats really happening.

Is not that the show has stopped being empowering of women. Is that the show writting has gone to s****. All kind of characters have seen their arcs destroyed , both male and female.

I think its a bit like Walking Dead - they are sure of the ratings so they don't really have to try. Especially since this is the end of the show....

So what do you think they will draw out the remaing 1 and half hours with:

Jon being Sulky/Moral likely with all the remainng characters supporting him (even though he is actually a terrible choice for a king- overthrown and new civil war in 3, 2, 1! ) to stand up to Dany.
Sam/GRM Avatar waddling over from the safety of his home to pontificate and lecture now that he has singly handly destroyed the alliance.
Sansa plotting
Aryra plotting - remembering that she can be anyone.
Dany and Grey Worm brooding alot.
Bran flying in for dull link to prequal and sprouting some fortune cookie crap.

Anything else to actually resolve.

 Galas wrote:
And I want to remember that the detonator of this "Daenerys falling to madness and paranoia" developement in the last two episodes was started by no other than fething Tormmund.

What a bloke. Best character in the show. One of the small group that didn't had his character ruined.

Tormmund is cool - he is what Bron used to be - fun breath of fresh air,

No it was Sam - all his fault then Jon.

There is still time to scew him over - probbaly last shot of him strolling off and getting killed and eaten by Ghost or some other crap.

 stanman wrote:
After this episode Tyrion's faith in Dany has clearly been broken, he wasn't entirely disagreeing with Varys's position but his prior loyalties wouldn't let him agree out of principle and he still had a touch of blind faith left. Like much of the audience I think his blinders were peeled back and he's realized that a lot of her deeds were all manipulations to win the people and not because she was "good of heart" like Jon. I suspect that after seeing Vary's suspicions and truth come to pass he may have a hand in Dany's demise. Like Varys his loyalties are to the people and he killed his own father over much less, the burning of Kings Landing is likely what pushes him beyond his past faith in Dany.

Also just because Varys is gone doesn't mean his network is disabled. In the moments prior to being arrested he was writing and burning notes even though he knew they were coming for him and there was no surprise on his end so he had fully expected it. He likely knew that his death would be unavoidable in getting a better option onto the throne. He still has eyes and ears able to do things in his absence, especially if Tyrion now comes to align himself with those views as well. He's always shown that he has plans within plans at work and I don't think a few days after his execution would be the finite end of his reach.

The problem with that is the Varys apparently had no network that told him anything was happening anywhere upto the point that he decides to switch from Dany to Jon. Again its just bad writting.

We are told Varys supports her but his spies tell her nothing of any actual usefullness - nothing about a city with giant weapon platforms, where Eurons fleet is or indeed that there are equipped with weapon platforms, nothing about the Lannister army are Not marching to Winterfell, I can't recall a single piece of information that he has given her that has actually been of use since she entered Westros.

Amusing how people ignore that he tried to poison her before she burned him.

Tyrion already betrayed her by realising his brother from captivity and did so that her Unsullied no exactly who did it. Likely dead next episode and tbh if they are going to go this route - lets see Dany cut loose somemore .

Dany and Jon are opposite mirrors, Jon does what is right because that's his motivation and is warm and open to those around him and as a result he's loved as a leader despite his many failings. Dany has always been cold and distant, her actions are always underlined with self interest and pursuit of power and her claim, thus no matter how significant her victories are it doesn't generate the same manner of love and loyalty the way Jon does it innately. There are those that follow her loyally but it's more about what she's done and her might vs following her because of who she is as a person and a connection to the people. In the simplest of terms, Jon leads and Dany orders.

Dany burns all of her opposition and resents anyone that doesn't bend to her will even with her lovers and friends, that mistrust has been part of her character all along but comes to a head once she goes North. The entire trip to Winterfell is about her seeing that she lacks the true love of the people and in many ways she's just as bad as Cersei, for all of their power and ability to rule neither can win over the hearts of the people and she becomes very spiteful when they are cheering Jon as the hero and champion of the people. She see's that she can rule through might but can't rule from the heart like a true king.

Hmm not quite - Jon does everything without thinking about consequences - as Dany used to do, he is all about in the moment feeling and hence continues to have truely epic disasters (every battle he has ever fought) where he gets many killed but kept being lucky enough to have other save him - be that Sansa and Littlefinger, Stanis or the Lord of Light. He just keeps failing but is always saved by someone or something. Jon acts without thinking - always partly becuase something always turns up to save him. He also has the same intransignt Honour issues that killed Robb and started the whole civil war.

Interestingly in the last episode Jon (the lover) was asked to provide Dany (The Ruler) with comfort, but refused - a role that many women in the same position have done for their men or not and seen the conseqeuences. A grieving, desperate lover turns to him and he pulls up the honour shield.......just to twist the knife.

As Arya said without the Dragon Queen the North would all be dead (and then she would have knifed the NK which makes all the sacrifce pointless but ho hum) but all Dany now sees is her and her people's sacrfice beniftting others - as those who love her die in her service then she hardens her heart. I would agree that she does not get why she is not loved by the North - not realising that they are in fact that prejuidced (with good reason)

I did wonder if The Lord of Light will end up being connected to her families ability to survive fire and her rebirth. We have little reason to believe that he is a benevolent god?

 AduroT wrote:
So prediction for next episode. Jon confronts Dany and gets mad at her for the whole murdering civilians things. She demands he shut up and submit. He refuses. She orders Drogar to roast him. Drogar obliges. Jon, being a true Targaryen, pulls a Dany and walks out of the flames and runs her thru with his sword.

Does it make sense? It really. But imagine the spectacle!

Except of course Jon gets burnt by normal fire never mind dragonfire but agreed, it does not have to make sense anymore.

Maybe the Lord of Light turns up and thanks her for her sacrifce to him

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
On Varys. Don't forget his network of Little Birds was overtaken by Qyburn. It's entirely possible it was thus compromised, and provided with dodgy details from there.

But it suddenly seemed to be operating all just fine before the siege?

also because Dany loves a bit of fire

Montage images

Dany exmaines the row of heads on spears that Grey Worm has brought her as her army pay homage - she pauses by those of Jon and Tyrion, then shrugs and walks on.

She declares that Kings Landing was a funeral pyre for her beloved friend and should never be rebuilt.

Cersei and Jamie emerge from the rubble, clamber into a boat and sail off into the sunset

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

 Galas wrote:

Spoiler:

I remember when GoT wanted to be the best fantasy adaptation of a published work, surpassing LoTR. And at first it was heading that way, but after this two last seasons... nah. They have butchered this worse than ME3.

I'd agree with all of that except tyrion. He's consistently been witty and had helpful advice to give. Problem is people keep not heeding his advice.

He has been less helpful over last few seasons - the whole obession with not letting Dany burn the Red Keep has cost her dearly and Cersei played him like a guitar.

Sadly the writters gave him and Varys very little material or influence over the story when both/either could have been privotal.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Burn everyone who resists worked for the Targyrians for how many centuries??

It didn't. 1. Not all Targaryens were psychotic maniacs, hence the "coin flip when one is born". 2) The most brutal Targaryens, like Maegor the Cruel, were assassinated or overthrown via rebellions.

Guess which Targaryen king had the longest reign in history? Give up? It was Jaehaerys Targaryen, who was a benevolent ruler that avoided using violence whenever possible.

She still has plenty of allies

List them.

And if she does have plenty of allies, then that makes her actions even more dumb, as you and Yakface' assertion is that this act of enormous violence was necessary because she was losing support in Westeros to Jon. If that's not the case and she still had plenty of allies in the realm before going scorched earth then going scorched earth wasn't necessary.

Poltical strategy was the province of Varys and Tyrion whose suggestions since she arrived ALL resulted in disaster

Wrong. Their council got her King's Landing. The battle was won and the throne was hers. Then she went apeshit because "reasons".

its only when she went burning things that gak got done and friends/"chidren" did not die.

Her friends and children died because she ignored her advisor's council, which was to wait and make sure her ducks were all in order before setting out.

How many on her side died on the assault on Winterfell.

What does fighting the WW have to do with anything we're talking about?

How did that work out for Tommen, Robb, or Robert or the king of Dorn?

Tommen would have been a fine king but chose to bow out of the race, Robb was never a king despite the North's claims, Robert was the best king we've gotten since the story started with 20 years of peace and prosperity in the realm, there is no king of Dorn- Dorn is not a kingdom and you're rambling at this point. In any case, you're grasping at straws here. No one you listed died/lost due to a lack of ruthlessness or because of an excess of benevolence.

Dany is not a psycho either, she just burnt a city - meh - lots of medievil kings / rulers etc did that. Did anyone really react to Cersei blowing up their Vatican? They will get over it in a few years IF she is adecent ruler - if not - then usual problems and threats.

She just did it in person. No big deal. Her ancestors did the same you do recall HOW the Ttargyrains took the seven kingdoms right? It was not through negotaiton. They burnt anyone who stood up to them in the field of battle or in a castle with their Dragons - only Dorn managing to hold them off IIRC. Dany is doing the same - whats the issue - thats how her dynasty starts - same as the one that was begun hundreds of years ago and lasted for centuries. She has cleared the field of many enemies for any children she might have - the lack of the latter being much more of an issue if she is still barren.

Ok as you are playing with semantics - lets say Rulers or Leaders

Tommen was a nice guy - how long did his rule last? I he had some backbone the whole issue with the Church would not have been an issue and would not have ended up with his wife dead and most of the nobility but he kept trying to do the right thing "Chose to bow out the race" - really thats how you describe a desparing suicide?
Robb was "King in the North" how long did his rule last? He was another Honourable guy and where did that get him? Dead
Who was the Dorn guy then (i found them all boring but he seemed to be in charge) and kept trying to do the right thing until guess what - he was brutally killed.

"Sigh" - Dany has allies - Dorn has pledged its alligience and whoever she appoints to rule Highgarden, Riverrun etc - thats all up to her. Sansa is still not yet a outright decalred enemy, she might use the burning of Kings Landing as a propoganada tool but I seriously doubt she will care or move against Dany overtly - depends on Aryria. Tecnically she is only going to be enemies with the North due to Sam and Bran not keeping their fat mouths shut. She is going scorched earth to show what happens if Jon/Sansa declares against her

At ths point - Jon and Tyrion are threats - she should deal with them -but she is still sentimently attached to them. Doubt that will last.

NO Tyrion and Varys told her not to burn the Red Keep when she arrived in Westros which cost her time, the Ironborn fleet and most of her inital advanatages - that is all on them as is the failure of her subsequent camapign plus all those who died in the later engagements.

IF she had burnt the keep on day one (not the city just the keep) - there would have been none of later issues - Euron would not have joined a burnt queen - probably just played at being a pirate and been a nusiance at most until she brunt him with her Dragons - yeah Plural - its only due to her advisors - jon in particular that she lost her first one and the wall was breeched. If Jon had not reached her - again no problems.

Its because of the failed advice of Tyrion, Jon and Varys that she has lost almost everything - they told her to go North and fight the dead - when apparently all you needed was Bran and Arya in a tree. They told her not to assault Kings Landing until she had lost most of her army and 2 dragons and they had artillery on the walls - which somehow Varys failed to be informed off. They didn't bother bringing seige engines south of course.because....such wise and well informed advisors. How did Varys know nothing about Eurons fleet - where, how many, their weapons - what exactly has he done this season to help her - name one thing.

Tyrion assured Dany that Cersie would not betray them. Right or Wrong?

Dany took Kings Landing with her Dragon - no one else was involved? She and her dragon destroyed the entire enemy fighting force - she won the battle on her own. Then she did waht many rulers, kkings, conquererors do, she unleashed her army on the city population - standard practice for any city that refuses to surrender. For the Dothraki thats the kind of warfare they are used to all the time - loot and pillage is their reward. The Northerners hate the South for what they did to the Stark family and the Unsullied want revenge for Missendri and all they have lost against Euron and Cersei's armies.

 trexmeyer wrote:
The Dornishmen if anything, don't care or are amused that King's Landing got torched. Same is true for the Greyjoys. I doubt the average Stark footsoldier gives two gaks either. Why would they?

The only people I could see really giving a damn about this are the Lannisters, possibly the Tyrells, and those living in the Crownlands.

Sansa will care because she's afraid of Dany doing the same to the North and she doesn't want to submit to her rule.
Jon will care because he's an honor driven dunce.
Arya will care because the writers say so.
Tyrion will care because he's a Lannister and seems genuinely sick of war. Also the writer's say so and he's an idiot now.

I think the worst thing about this s8e5 is that if Dany had gone in with 3 dragons and torched the place back in s7e1/e2 the whole damn world would be better off. It's really sickening how easily s5-s8 could be redone so much better. Especially s7/s8. Cutting LSH and fAegon was an act of unfathomable idiocy.

Mostly agree - given that the Lanisters sacked Highgarden I doubt any survivors would be sad to see Kings landing burn.

Everything would have been better if Dany had torched the Red Keep in S7 - but her advisors convinced her not to and this is what happens.

 Galas wrote:
Nothing would have happened if she just torched the red keep with Cersei inside.

Is torching everything else thats a problem.
And as the writter said, it wasn't some cold logical plan. She was just angry.

She should have done it in Season 7 not Season 8. Her advisors (the writters) made her waste that time and loose friends and dragons for nothing.

 gorgon wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
My guess is they leave Drogon alive and wild, because it's not clear or not whether dragons need a mate to lay eggs, and this opens the door to a world with new dragons / spinoff material (non-Targaryens have been dragon riders, as well).

Good point...I assumed they'd be prequels, but they certainly don't have to be. I think there was also some fan speculation as to whether Drogon sowed some oats when it left Daenerys and ran wild.

Well there is the old joke - "what does a dragon mate with?" "Anything it wants to" but her three do (did ) seem to be unique in this part of the world?

There are supposed to be dragons in the far East (?) but I always got the impression that the GOT world had a rising level of magic (sort of Shadowrun style) that has allowed dragons to be active again?

Dany made a blood sacrifice to activate her eggs - others may have done the same. Maybe it was that pesky lord of light again - he does like fire.....

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I reckon we’ll see Sansa take charge, ruling Westeros from Winterfell.

After all, of all the major houses, it’s pretty much House Stark, and House Martel left standing.

Houses Greyjoy and Baratheon could, given time, recover (Yara and Gendry, provided Gendry’s legitimisation sticks are both of child rearing age).

But then, perhaps The Northern Troops will actually ally with Dany over Jurrrn Snurrr? They certainly showed no reservations about ripping into Kings Landing...

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well, it seems to have been the fire as much as people being in it that hatched the eggs.

So Drogon, theoretically (and unless the books contradict), could’ve just breathed fire upon a clutch of otherwise fossilised eggs? I mean, Dany’s three came from somewhere, no?

I also assumed it was a reference to the Targaryrian Moto - "Fire and Blood" - I think a blood and fire sacrifce makes sense.

All the Great Houses have been trashed - even the starks and Martels have lost most of their warriors and at some point someone is going to need to sort out the harvest (if anything was planted) - dany still has the remnants of some of the few non milita forces - I imagine the Burning of Kings Landing will make the Dothraki love her - thats the kind of leader/god they want. The Unsullied are stuck in a hostile foreign land and still love her.

The northerners sacking the city was something the writters got completely right -however they are in the end loyal to Jon Snow (much more than Sansa) and Dany will be, to them, the mad dragon queen - also Jon is a man - that is going to count for quite a bit.

Sansa needs to play the game carefully - and she needs a husband and a child if she is going to rule the north - Dany has the same issue with the sheer power of her dragon offestting it to a certain degree but if she is barrren then she has a big problem looming in the future - she could adopt however and make potential claiments vie for her favour..... tricky toget right but can be better than bloodlines

 infinite_array wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
My guess is they leave Drogon alive and wild, because it's not clear or not whether dragons need a mate to lay eggs, and this opens the door to a world with new dragons / spinoff material (non-Targaryens have been dragon riders, as well).

Good point...I assumed they'd be prequels, but they certainly don't have to be. I think there was also some fan speculation as to whether Drogon sowed some oats when it left Daenerys and ran wild.

Well there is the old joke - "what does a dragon mate with?" "Anything it wants to" but her three do (did ) seem to be unique in this part of the world?

There are supposed to be dragons in the far East (?) but I always got the impression that the GOT world had a rising level of magic (sort of Shadowrun style) that has allowed dragons to be active again?

Dany made a blood sacrifice to activate her eggs - others may have done the same. Maybe it was that pesky lord of light again - he does like fire.....

I always thought that GoT had the opposite idea when it came to magic, especially the TV show. The White Walkers, the Children of the Forest, and other magical beings/powers are going away. When we enter the story of ASOIAF/GoT, we're at the tail-end of a long cycle of magic ending. The three dragons are a bit of a last hurrah, but even they can't last.

Could be.....but isn't there a bit where the mages who capture Dany talk about magic being more powerful recently and they think its to do with her dragons?

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
What do you all suppose the over/under is on dany basically killing everyone, seizing control of the world, and the show's history basically restarting with a mad targaryan ruling the 7 kingdoms with an iron fist until a rebellion outs them?

Possible but unlikely - nothing, nohow is very going to kill GRMS Avatar Sam.....

Lot depends on what Dany actually wants any more - once the ash settles,

 Compel wrote:
Part of me feels the only feasible way they can end the show now, without everyone rioting, is Sansa and Tyrion sharing the throne.

Although, the key part of that sentence is "without everyone rioting." - There's a whole lot of things they could do, some have been mentioned in previous posts.

It may be that they do stick with the whole "subverting expectations" thing (How I've come to loathe that phrase after The Last Jedi) and it could practically be anyone...


Personally I do think, if the recent episodes have demonstrated anything, Game of Thrones, at the end of the day, won't end up being some great major impact event TV series that redefined television.

Instead, it will be 'remembered' in history as the 'Lost' of the 2010's.

UUUUghh Subverting expectations is one of the biggest and worst excuses for bad writing going. Doing the expected thing is perfectly fine if its done well.

Comparision to Lost is a little unfair - they have good soild seasons with consistantly good characters and plots - it was not made up as they went along.

I do think alot of people will be dispaointed by the ending and for some unknown reason some poeple think thats the aim of making films /tv - god knows why.

They have a whole hour and half to make a good finalie - thats more than enough, in my view the dieal length of a film - lets just hope they don;t waste it (further)

I do think they will set up the prequal with Bran the Boring.

 gorgon wrote:

 Thargrim wrote:
They were just eager to be done with it and move on, on to the next project (SW). Sounds like burn out to me.

I didn't want to believe this, but based on some interviews...it's possible that it was a factor. I doubt that a few more episodes would have solved anything, though. I believe GRRM said in an interview that the show could have used another season or two, and I think he's probably right. Might have been hard to keep this cast together for another two seasons, though.

I think they had plenty of time to a great ending - they have what 9 hours - thats three Long feature films to do this. If they can't then thats on them IMO.

Pacing is really not GRMs strong point these days given last two books. I don't know how constrained the writters were to end it as GRm wanted or the opposite. They seem to have included characters that they had no real interest in (Bran) for that reason?

I didn't mind the fast travel - as long as it was obvious time was passed and there was not a narrative need to show that time is taken.

So we sailed over in a few weeks is fine.

"Run to the wall and fetch Dany" was stupid and annoying.

I think the Dany goes mad has been crowbarred into this season - badly.

Yeah she can be a bit harsh but thats rulers in the (fantasy) medievil world - but if thats the way they are going - personally happy now for her to go full on dark queen and end it in that way.

To coin a phrase , let her be "beautiful and terrible as the morning and the night, Fair as the Sea and the Sun and the Snow upon the Mountain! Dreadful as the Storm and the Lightning! Stronger than the foundations of the earth."

Burn all her stand against her.

Or we could have Jon and co whining and moralising for the last episode until they kill her and make the world a smaller, duller place for for them

 Gael Knight wrote:
Honestly don't get the tears about the ballistas. She divebombed the fleet and was moving rapidly. They blew their load on the first pass. Euron orders them to turn but she's able to out manoeuvre them. They would have been panicked after the first ships got demolished.The men on the walls have never fired them at a dragon before and don't have the angles.

Its because they were deadily accurate at a stupid range when first shown as well as having incredable ability to rapid reload - then the opposite.

The men in the ships on Eurons stealth/teleporting ships had never fired at a dragon either but hit first time with three shots.

Hmmm well its was not as bad as most of this season but not great. The first half an hour or so was not bad and then they killed Dany and gave up on any kind of coherency.

Dany declaring a crusade was cool, all that stuff I enjoyed. Loved Grey Worms line about them still breathing. I'd have been hapy if we had eneded with her speech

Dany gets betrayed for a final time by the man she loves - ah well but Drogon does not burn him, the Unsullied and the Dothraki do not tear him aprt - sorry no thats BS - he was a dead man walking - same with Tyrion. Dany's army would have gone a whole new killing spree and the civil war would have started right then.

King Landing regenerates very quickly..........
King Bran - - So it was his plan to break up Dany and Jon so he could claim the throne - hmm ok then. Nice guy - glad he is happy with all those who died in the process - but hey he doesn't care about the real world right - can;t see how that could go wrong - or is that another character rewrite.
Seriously no other lord sees a Stark as a puppet for Sansa - who is totally following in Dany's footsteps, Queen of the North today, Queen of Westros tomorrow.
The Greyjoys and the rest don't imediateely break off the same as the North?
No one sees a problem with Elector Counts
As Tyrion said - lets see in ten years - when the kingdom has disolved into civil war and chaos.

Sam makes me want to vomit every time I see his smug stupid fething features talking crap and they even confirm his author avatar status in the show -

 AduroT wrote:
So I have to assume Jon went out and turned himself in and confessed to the Unsullied. No one saw him kill Dany, only Drogon saw the body and then left with it, but not only did Greywurm know who killed her but how.

Its a very Jon thing to do - but then they would have torn him apart, then and there.

 Galas wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
When a show which Rotten Tomatoes audience rating has been hovering around 90% for seven seasons suddenly drops below 40% then I don't think that it is unreasonable to surmise that something might have gone a tad wrong in the show making department...

No, is just manchildren being mad. Like The new Star Wars trilogy. They are hating it because potatoes, theres NO VALID criticism whatsoever.

.

There are plenty of valid criitiscms of TLJ - I don't think you get to decide what is and is not a valid reason why that film is bad.

I am disapointed by the end - in fact much of Season 7 and 8 but its done, I will remember the good stuff and think about how I would have liked it to end - it would not take that much to make it an ending I would have enjoyed.....

 Compel wrote:
Yeah, Tyrion's fine and content. He's hanging out with Davos, as well as Bronn again, doing useful work and telling stories. He's content.

As much as I've been annoyed with the series, I for example, don't think it would end up on a Channel 4 "20 worst TV show endings" list show. But it MIGHT end up on the "20 MOST DISAPPOINTING TV show Endings" programme.

And I think that's the rub, even for the general public. Sure, it's not the OMG worst plot twist awfulness that some really passionate fans express.

But I do think that the vast majority of people, even casual viewers are disappointed by it. And it definitely won't be a thing of, "FROM THE CREATORS OF GAME OF THRONES" will end up being a big selling thing going forward. (Though they'll try, maybe?) but, yeah...

There was an article I saw that did well at summing up my own feelings I think. Meh or Eh

Yeah disapointment is my main feeling for this season - missed opportunities but oh well.

Some people think it needed mroe time but I think thats no excuse - I look at Avengers Endgame and see how many characters were done well in 3 hours and see the opposite in GoT.

Why they had to force a happy ending for the two main male characters the opposite for the main female lead is also a mystery.

Sure have her lover stab her in the heart but then let him burn or the Dothraki /Unsullied tear him apart not live happily ever after up north.
Same with Tyrion - oh no i get to be the most powerful person in the 6 kingdoms (*) - woe is me....

(*) Bran the Pointless is not going to do anything - hilarious hearing him described as "the storyteller" - he hardly speaks never mind tells stories.

The show also hammered home the bad things happen to good people and good deeds are not rewarded. Dany learnt from that

Once as a young girl and wife she was horrified by her husbands warriors sacking a town and gang raping women - but by the time she reaches Westros she has learnt that weakness = death or worse.

Then her trusted advisors keep on and on about being restrained and not destroying the Red Keep, not using her dragons - and just as before - weakness = death of allies and friends.

When she cuts loose - everything works out fine - the lesson is repeated again and again for her. Also remember that all those that she truly trusts - the free slaves, Dothraki and Unsullied have NO problems with anything she does includuing burning Kings Landing - in fact Missendrie's last words are prophetic.

I didn't enjoy them killing her off but for me what made it really dispapointing was then forcing a happy ending for Jon and Tyrion down our throats. The Show runners sould have showed some balls and killed 'em all.

And where exactly does all this Bran is the living memory and story teller come from - dude hardly speaks and then its usually fortune cookie crap. Bron tells more stories than he does,.

The other element that occurs to me is Jon asks Tyrion if he was right to knife her and even Tyrion seems still not sure - "ask me in ten years"

Given that nothing is seen to change in the kingdoms except the faces around the table was he right? I assume the slavers will retake Meerem and start back up as before. Sansa is building her power base - I am sure Dorn and the other rulers will do the same. The game begins again - nothing has changed.

After all you can't make an empire and change the world without burning a few cities.......Now if Dany could still not have children - could she have even built a sustainable empire or was she always going to be Alexander the Great at some point. Would she have had to purge the Dothraki at some point to make her brave new world or at least destroy everything about their current culture.

Personally amongst the Jon Snow/Tyrion etc love in scenes I would have liked them to reference her reuniting with Drogo as she saw in her vision of a burned kings landing?

re time - the show is actualy very bad at telling you time has passed - it often does but there is little to no indication that it does.