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2019/05/14 10:31:32
Subject: Re:Game of Thrones Season 8. Speculation and spoilers.
Game of Thrones has betrayed the women who made it great. [spoiler] ‘Too strong for a husband to control’ ... Daenerys Targaryen (Emilia Clarke) in Game of Thrones.
Once you could have argued it was a feminist show, but now GoT is letting down its female characters in a shockingly tone deaf way – from ‘unstable’ Daenerys to weeping Brienne
Until recently, you could make the argument that Game of Thrones was a stealthily feminist show. In its early years it might have lured in the typical male fantasy crowd with sex, violence and alpha-male characters like Ned and Robb Stark, Robert Baratheon and Jaime Lannister, but before you knew it a woman was on the Iron Throne, her main challenger was also a woman, and Westeros was stuffed full of female assassins, knights, wily politicos and Dame Diana Rigg. Sure, the show still asked us to ogle naked female bodies once a week, and there was still a worryingly relaxed attitude to rape, but we fantasy-loving female viewers have learned to take our victories where we can – and Game of Thrones was one of them.
Which is why it’s so frustrating to see the show slip back into its old ways in this final season. Coming off the back of The Long Night’s excellent twist ending – where Arya, rather than the expected hero Jon Snow, killed the Night King – the latest episode is especially disappointing. So many of the show’s strongest female characters were undermined by showrunners David Benioff and DB Weiss, who also wrote this episode.
First, a caveat: personally, I’m thoroughly enjoying Daenerys’ descent into complete megalomania. Anyone who thinks it’s an unbelievable character shift for her weren’t paying attention during her seven straight seasons of setting people who don’t agree with her on fire. Daenerys was never going to be the right person for the Iron Throne – and neither is Cersei, who also has a history of blowing up her enemies. Heck, if they weren’t fighting over the Iron Throne, the two of them would probably get on like a Sept on fire.
First, a caveat: personally, I’m thoroughly enjoying Daenerys’ descent into complete megalomania. Anyone who thinks it’s an unbelievable character shift for her weren’t paying attention during her seven straight seasons of setting people who don’t agree with her on fire. Daenerys was never going to be the right person for the Iron Throne – and neither is Cersei, who also has a history of blowing up her enemies. Heck, if they weren’t fighting over the Iron Throne, the two of them would probably get on like a Sept on fire.
Spoiler:
So having two female villains is not at all anti-feminist – in fact, it’s refreshing – but it gets wearisome when, in The Last of the Starks, Tyrion and Varys all but decide that Jon Snow is the rightful king to oppose these mad queens, chiefly because he’s a man. Sure, he hasn’t resorted to solving his problems with explosions, which is certainly a tick in the plus column, but he’s also a notoriously terrible politician, and last time he was put in charge of something he got murdered in a mutiny. None of his major battles were won by him – Sansa bailed him out in the Battle of the Bastards, and Arya saved the day in the Battle for Winterfell. Jon’s only qualifications for the throne are that he’s a Targaryen, and a bloke.
To hear Tyrion and Varys – characters who have always been portrayed as egalitarian – say that Jon’s gender would make him a better leader than Daenerys is just depressing. And to see Daenerys being rejected as a potential queen for being too “strong” for a husband to control, not to mention being portrayed as emotionally unstable when a man in her position would be depicted simply as a bit of a dick, is a betrayal of the character.
But that storyline, at least, can be justified by the ‘historical’ context. Kings held more weight than queens in the medieval period that Game of Thrones is loosely referencing. Elsewhere in the episode, female characters were dealt much more egregious wrongs. A mere two weeks after her triumphant knighting, Brienne ended the episode wailing over a man while wearing a nightgown – one of the only times we’ve seen her out of her armour.
Spoiler:
lsewhere, Sansa’s brutal abuse at the hands of Ramsay Bolton was used against her twice. I forgave the show for its cruel treatment of Sansa a season ago, when it became clear that her story was one of survival rather than victimhood. But Thrones rarely passes up an opportunity to remind us of her rapes. It undermines a character who has refused to be beaten or defined by her suffering, especially when, in the latest episode, she credits her abuse for transforming her from a ‘little bird’ into what she is now. As Jessica Chastain pointed out on Twitter, it was Sansa and Sansa alone who transformed herself into the strong and savvy leader she is – not the men who abused and manipulated her. If the writers don’t understand that, how can we trust them to tell Sansa’s story properly?
Worst of all, though, was the treatment of Missandei. As Game of Thrones’ only regular female character of colour, the show had a responsibility to not mess her arc up. And yet we found ourselves watching a former slave – who only wanted to return to the home country she was stolen from, and who had dedicated the last few years of her life to helping Daenerys wipe out slavery – get captured and beheaded while handcuffed, all so that her death could give Daenerys the final justification she needed to burn this mother down. It’s a move so shockingly tone deaf as to make you wonder how anyone in the writer’s room ever thought it was a good idea.
Spoiler:
The writing staff on Game of Thrones has always been male-dominated, with only four episodes in the show’s history being credited to female writers. Season eight is written and directed entirely by men (only one woman, Michelle MacLaren, has ever directed Thrones), although there has been at least one woman in the writer’s room, Gursimran Sandhu, this time around.
It’s worth pointing out that not every female character is currently being let down. Arya rejecting Gendry’s proposal was pure Arya, and at least Lyanna Mormont died as she lived – taking down people much bigger than her. Cersei is also being resolutely true to herself – it just so happens that she’s a completely dreadful person. But the latest episode made such vast missteps with the characters of Sansa, Brienne and Missandei in particular that it’s hard to see how the show is going to turn it around with only two episodes to go. Game of Thrones was supposed to be a story about the underdogs, the ‘cripples, bastards and broken things’, as one first season episode title put it. If it turns out that a white, male, true-born heir is the saviour after all, it will feel like the show has missed its own point.
[/spoiler]
Yeah. How dare someone like, have an opinion! Grrrr!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/14 10:34:38
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It's been coming a mile off, and I didn't actually think they'd do it because Dany had become a self insert power fantasy for many. But the madmen D&D, for all their faults, actually went and did it.
2019/05/14 10:59:36
Subject: Game of Thrones Season 8. Speculation and spoilers.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: You do though. Hence trying to induce ridicule because you happen to disagree with someone else's opinion.
And you call libs 'triggered'?
To be fair, it is a pretty ridiculous opinion. I recall feminism being about a set of ideals, none of which were incompatible with having a willy, but evidently having a character who possesses one take the Iron Throne would somehow constitute a betrayal of the show's "stealth feminism", its female characters, and its female audience, despite said willy-haver generally having an attitude that's closer to those feminist ideals than most of the female characters. "Calling out" Varys & Tyrion's conversation about Jon's possession of the offending organ also suggests the "think"piece author was very much looking for things to be annoyed by, given the suggestion in that conversation was not "having a willy matters and that's just and proper" but rather "stop being so naive, it does still matter, and we won't get anywhere until we acknowledge that".
Everyone's entitled to an opinion, but not all opinions are equally valuable.
"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal
2019/05/14 11:18:11
Subject: Game of Thrones Season 8. Speculation and spoilers.
So we aren't allowed to point out the ridiculous think pieces because you disagree with the idea of us doing it?
The article is ridiculous. It deserves ridicule. You don't even have an opinion on it so I don't get why you are so flustered about others talking about it.
Pure toys out the pram nonsense.
2019/05/14 11:28:16
Subject: Re:Game of Thrones Season 8. Speculation and spoilers.
Coming off the back of The Long Night’s excellent twist ending – where Arya, rather than the expected hero Jon Snow, killed the Night King – the latest episode is especially disappointing
Yeah. The free and cheap subversion of expectations is cool. Robing Jon from fighting the Night King, that was basically his wholle character arc from season 1, was very cool because nobody was expecting that a character that didn't even knew what white walkers were before that night would kill the big bad.
D&D forgot that predictable outcomes aren't bad when you have been building them for 8 fething years. Just like Jaime character arc.
I mean. How people can be so blind to bad writting just because it catters to their personal tastes? I loved the Warcraft movie. I saw it 3 times in theaters. For me it was a 10/10 as a big warcraft fan. But objetively at best the movie was a 4,5-5,5/10. It is not that hard to judge objetively what you happen to like. Or dislike. I don't like a ton of things that objetively are very good, but just don't catter to my tastes.
Also this line of reasoning
First, a caveat: personally, I’m thoroughly enjoying Daenerys’ descent into complete megalomania. Anyone who thinks it’s an unbelievable character shift for her weren’t paying attention during her seven straight seasons of setting people who don’t agree with her on fire
Is just stupid. Yeah she had moments were she was ruthless. But she was MANY MORE were she wasn't, and even in those cruel moments, it always came back to bite her in the ass (Somebody remember the scene with Samwell Tarly?), and wasn't something she did lightly.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/05/14 11:34:16
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
2019/05/14 11:28:54
Subject: Game of Thrones Season 8. Speculation and spoilers.
And in looking for things to complain about? Have you actually read this thread, or any thread about GoT, Walking Dead, Disco or Star Wars recently?
If you don't agree with an opinion, just like, let it be. Doesn't harm you any.
You accused Gael of attempting to ridicule the piece because it's an opinion. I'd contend they attempted to ridicule the piece because it's a bit ridiculous.
And we're not talking about some rando on a forum, an opinion piece on the website of a major newspaper will be read by a lot of people, is presented as a serious analysis, and it will also help shape the opinions of others. I'd say that opens it up to a bit more criticism than your everyday forum post.
"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal
2019/05/14 11:34:20
Subject: Re:Game of Thrones Season 8. Speculation and spoilers.
Another thing people forget is that Dany has learnt throughout her journey in life that the most effective thing to do is in fact burn the bad guy....
Abusive brother -obediance, threats, reason and pacfiicaiton doesn;t work - pot of boiling gold - job done
Witch killed your unborn child and husband - burn her and yourself - get Dragons
Captured by wizards - burn them
Evil slavers - burn them - multiple times to finally get the message across but it works in the end.
Oath breakers don't bend the knee - burn them
Enemy convoy - burn them
Enemy fleet - burn it
Dragon killing balistae - burn them
In fact the only time its not worked is with the Night King
If it turns out that a white, male, true-born heir is the saviour after all, it will feel like the show has missed its own point.
Thats fair - I do think it will be very disapointing when Jon is the only one left standing and reluctantly has to take the throne cos "mad women" .
The Missandrei comments I think in that article are however very pertinent - her only role in this season has to be sacrificed to push Dany (and Grey Worm) towards her (and his) darker (and much more successful) impulses.
alkso on Jon Snow - very accurate
Sure, he hasn’t resorted to solving his problems with explosions, which is certainly a tick in the plus column, but he’s also a notoriously terrible politician, and last time he was put in charge of something he got murdered in a mutiny. None of his major battles were won by him – Sansa bailed him out in the Battle of the Bastards, and Arya saved the day in the Battle for Winterfell. Jon’s only qualifications for the throne are that he’s a Targaryen, and a bloke.
He will be assassinated or overthrown in months.....
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/05/14 11:38:24
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
I think the article is losing the grasp of whats really happening.
Is not that the show has stopped being empowering of women. Is that the show writting has gone to s****. All kind of characters have seen their arcs destroyed , both male and female.
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
2019/05/14 11:44:38
Subject: Game of Thrones Season 8. Speculation and spoilers.
Jon and Dany likely die together. The secret of Jon's true identity is kept. Bran doesn't want Lord of Winterfell (being the eldest remaining Stark male). Arya is younger. So it'll pass to Sansa.
And I reckon she'd make a great Queen. Raised from a silly little thing, through the boiling cauldron of politicking, with everyone just treating her as another pawn. She's the most experienced survivor I can think of in Westeros, and would likely make an excellent Queen.
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Galas wrote: I think the article is losing the grasp of whats really happening.
Is not that the show has stopped being empowering of women. Is that the show writting has gone to s****. All kind of characters have seen their arcs destroyed , both male and female.
I think its a bit like Walking Dead - they are sure of the ratings so they don't really have to try. Especially since this is the end of the show....
So what do you think they will draw out the remaing 1 and half hours with:
Jon being Sulky/Moral likely with all the remainng characters supporting him (even though he is actually a terrible choice for a king- overthrown and new civil war in 3, 2, 1! ) to stand up to Dany.
Sam/GRM Avatar waddling over from the safety of his home to pontificate and lecture now that he has singly handly destroyed the alliance.
Sansa plotting
Aryra plotting - remembering that she can be anyone.
Dany and Grey Worm brooding alot.
Bran flying in for dull link to prequal and sprouting some fortune cookie crap.
Anything else to actually resolve.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/14 11:51:06
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
And I want to remember that the detonator of this "Daenerys falling to madness and paranoia" developement in the last two episodes was started by no other than fething Tormmund.
What a bloke. Best character in the show. One of the small group that didn't had his character ruined.
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
2019/05/14 12:08:52
Subject: Game of Thrones Season 8. Speculation and spoilers.
Galas wrote: And I want to remember that the detonator of this "Daenerys falling to madness and paranoia" developement in the last two episodes was started by no other than fething Tormmund.
What a bloke. Best character in the show. One of the small group that didn't had his character ruined.
Tormmund is cool - he is what Bron used to be - fun breath of fresh air,
No it was Sam - all his fault then Jon.
There is still time to scew him over - probbaly last shot of him strolling off and getting killed and eaten by Ghost or some other crap.
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Tormund is pretty ace. Definitely one of my favourite characters from any show.
We're also seeing Dany wanting the top job in a country that doesn't want her doing it.
There's less chance of breaking the wheel, because for the Little Folk in Westeros, it doesn't matter one iota who sits upon the Throne. They're as free as they're gonna be, and the whole deal mostly works.
Dany's sole saving grace here is the excesses of the Lannister forces following Joffrey taking the crown may not be forgotten. There may be significant sentiment that Kings Landing got exactly what it deserved.
I mean, there was no popular uprising when Cersei detonated the main church in the entire land...
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Can a TV show really empower people? I'm doing a big think here but it seems most of the disappointment comes from the fact that people thought they were getting pandered to.
Brienne sleeping with Jaime isn't a negative for Brienne, it's a negative for Jaime. He's an insecure scumbag that couldn't stand the idea of Brienne liking somebody other than him when it's clear he didn't really care. The incest fixated sister rapist and attempted child murderer was actually a bad guy all along? Shocking. Yeah, people liked him and he had his moments. He was still an awful person.
I'm sure it's completely out of the realm of possibility that a ruthless woman, entitled, who has years of emotional trauma and abuse in her early life will react well to being used and betrayed by those around her, whom she has only tried to help. She isn't used to not being welcomed by the "little people" with open arms.They would have all been quite happy if she died. They didn't believe what she said, that she would raise the city if they didn't surrender beforehand? You can't have your cake and eat it too. Surrendering mid siege is basically attempting to do that. I like my dark fantasy subversive show until it's subverting the self insert dragon messiah is a bit sad at this point.
Jon isn't going to end up on the Iron Throne, he'll leave it behind. I'd bet money on this. Dany will die somehow. The Arya build up seems too obvious. It probably will be Jon that does it too. I don't know how they'll get rid of the unsullied, the dothraki or Drogon but Dany will definitely die in the next episode.
Perhaps the moral of the story for woke empowering demanding fans of Dany is that they should have treated her as a person, rather than as a pawn or messiah to be used at their convenience. Encouraging her worst aspects on people who deserved it rather than tempering mercy on the undeserving.
2019/05/14 12:33:30
Subject: Re:Game of Thrones Season 8. Speculation and spoilers.
Dany and Jon are opposite mirrors, Jon does what is right because that's his motivation and is warm and open to those around him and as a result he's loved as a leader despite his many failings. Dany has always been cold and distant, her actions are always underlined with self interest and pursuit of power and her claim, thus no matter how significant her victories are it doesn't generate the same manner of love and loyalty the way Jon does it innately. There are those that follow her loyally but it's more about what she's done and her might vs following her because of who she is as a person and a connection to the people. In the simplest of terms, Jon leads and Dany orders.
Dany burns all of her opposition and resents anyone that doesn't bend to her will even with her lovers and friends, that mistrust has been part of her character all along but comes to a head once she goes North. The entire trip to Winterfell is about her seeing that she lacks the true love of the people and in many ways she's just as bad as Cersei, for all of their power and ability to rule neither can win over the hearts of the people and she becomes very spiteful when they are cheering Jon as the hero and champion of the people. She see's that she can rule through might but can't rule from the heart like a true king.
Prior to executing Varys she says she's done everything to make the people love her but they won't, therefore she must be feared. While it seems she's speaking of his betrayal and imminent execution to bring her advisers back in line she's also speaking about the whole of Westeros. She's loved (perhaps) in other lands for her deeds but not in her home and never will be, so she decides that she will use force and fear to secure her position. While it reaches it's pinnacle with the bells scene it's not some spur of the moment decision. That inner jealousy, insecurity and bitter hate for her rivals has been festering with her for pretty much the entire series. But fans read into the character what they want to see, they viewed her burning everyone as being vindicated for crossing her without seeing that it's always been a "love me or else" situation.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/05/14 13:04:04
2019/05/14 12:37:59
Subject: Game of Thrones Season 8. Speculation and spoilers.
Dany feels entitled to everything. Her name is her fortune.
Jon has never felt entitled to anything. His name is his curse.
Both of these are products of the society they live in, rather than some personal character flaw.
Both have had to work for it, and in different ways. But Jon? one could argued he's earned it in a way Dany has never had to.
Jon is sent to The Blackwatch. Dany is sold for the promise of an army. Jon manages to unite The North. Dany (more or less) units Essos. There stories actually parallel quite nicely, without being mirrored.
I really think both are toast. Nobody is going to kill Dany, and not then be killed in turn.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/14 13:08:41
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After this episode Tyrion's faith in Dany has clearly been broken, he wasn't entirely disagreeing with Varys's position but his prior loyalties wouldn't let him agree out of principle and he still had a touch of blind faith left. Like much of the audience I think his blinders were peeled back and he's realized that a lot of her deeds were all manipulations to win the people and not because she was "good of heart" like Jon. I suspect that after seeing Vary's suspicions and truth come to pass he may have a hand in Dany's demise. Like Varys his loyalties are to the people and he killed his own father over much less, the burning of Kings Landing is likely what pushes him beyond his past faith in Dany.
Also just because Varys is gone doesn't mean his network is disabled. In the moments prior to being arrested he was writing and burning notes even though he knew they were coming for him and there was no surprise on his end so he had fully expected it. He likely knew that his death would be unavoidable in getting a better option onto the throne. He still has eyes and ears able to do things in his absence, especially if Tyrion now comes to align himself with those views as well. He's always shown that he has plans within plans at work and I don't think a few days after his execution would be the finite end of his reach.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/14 13:03:00
2019/05/14 13:36:39
Subject: Game of Thrones Season 8. Speculation and spoilers.
Here's what one of the two guys writing this show said about Daenerys' heel turn:
“I don’t think she decided ahead of time that she was going to do what she did,” Weiss says. “And then she sees the Red Keep, which is, to her, the home that her family built when they first came over to this country 300 years ago. It’s in that moment, on the walls of King’s Landing, when she’s looking at that symbol of everything that was taken from her, when she makes the decision to make this personal.”
So yes, it's an emotional choice. Which somehow leads to her slaying innocents in the streets, instead of charging straight for that symbol to kill Cersei.
TL;DR: The showrunners are just writing Big Stuff Happening(TM), and screw all the details. Been heading this way since at least season 6. We're just now seeing the full 'payoff'.
One thing that occurred to me is that it would be completely in keeping with the logic of this season if we 'find out' in the next ep that Daenerys only wrecked maybe 5% of Kings' Landing, with very few civilian casualties.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/14 13:37:39
Did he just admit that he doesn’t actually know if she planned it ahead of time or made an emotional decision in the moment? The writer of the show doesn’t know the characters motivations?
2019/05/14 13:48:23
Subject: Game of Thrones Season 8. Speculation and spoilers.
AduroT wrote: Did he just admit that he doesn’t actually know if she planned it ahead of time or made an emotional decision in the moment? The writer of the show doesn’t know the characters motivations?
Reader-response perspectives are hardly uncommon, especially amongst tv writers where multiple voices are involved in creation anyway.
2019/05/14 13:58:57
Subject: Game of Thrones Season 8. Speculation and spoilers.
AduroT wrote: Did he just admit that he doesn’t actually know if she planned it ahead of time or made an emotional decision in the moment? The writer of the show doesn’t know the characters motivations?
No. He's saying up to that point she hadn't decided. That's different from not knowing.
Example.
On occasion, I'll go have a couple of pints, and then fancy some dinner. My options are usually Curry, Subway or Chippie. Exactly which I'll do, I won't decide until I've finished my pint. But I always knew it'd be one of the three (because they're close to the pub)
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stanman wrote: After this episode Tyrion's faith in Dany has clearly been broken, he wasn't entirely disagreeing with Varys's position but his prior loyalties wouldn't let him agree out of principle and he still had a touch of blind faith left. Like much of the audience I think his blinders were peeled back and he's realized that a lot of her deeds were all manipulations to win the people and not because she was "good of heart" like Jon. I suspect that after seeing Vary's suspicions and truth come to pass he may have a hand in Dany's demise. Like Varys his loyalties are to the people and he killed his own father over much less, the burning of Kings Landing is likely what pushes him beyond his past faith in Dany.
Also just because Varys is gone doesn't mean his network is disabled. In the moments prior to being arrested he was writing and burning notes even though he knew they were coming for him and there was no surprise on his end so he had fully expected it. He likely knew that his death would be unavoidable in getting a better option onto the throne. He still has eyes and ears able to do things in his absence, especially if Tyrion now comes to align himself with those views as well. He's always shown that he has plans within plans at work and I don't think a few days after his execution would be the finite end of his reach.
The problem with that is the Varys apparently had no network that told him anything was happening anywhere upto the point that he decides to switch from Dany to Jon. Again its just bad writting.
We are told Varys supports her but his spies tell her nothing of any actual usefullness - nothing about a city with giant weapon platforms, where Eurons fleet is or indeed that there are equipped with weapon platforms, nothing about the Lannister army are Not marching to Winterfell, I can't recall a single piece of information that he has given her that has actually been of use since she entered Westros.
Amusing how people ignore that he tried to poison her before she burned him.
Tyrion already betrayed her by realising his brother from captivity and did so that her Unsullied no exactly who did it. Likely dead next episode and tbh if they are going to go this route - lets see Dany cut loose somemore .
Dany and Jon are opposite mirrors, Jon does what is right because that's his motivation and is warm and open to those around him and as a result he's loved as a leader despite his many failings. Dany has always been cold and distant, her actions are always underlined with self interest and pursuit of power and her claim, thus no matter how significant her victories are it doesn't generate the same manner of love and loyalty the way Jon does it innately. There are those that follow her loyally but it's more about what she's done and her might vs following her because of who she is as a person and a connection to the people. In the simplest of terms, Jon leads and Dany orders.
Dany burns all of her opposition and resents anyone that doesn't bend to her will even with her lovers and friends, that mistrust has been part of her character all along but comes to a head once she goes North. The entire trip to Winterfell is about her seeing that she lacks the true love of the people and in many ways she's just as bad as Cersei, for all of their power and ability to rule neither can win over the hearts of the people and she becomes very spiteful when they are cheering Jon as the hero and champion of the people. She see's that she can rule through might but can't rule from the heart like a true king.
Hmm not quite - Jon does everything without thinking about consequences - as Dany used to do, he is all about in the moment feeling and hence continues to have truely epic disasters (every battle he has ever fought) where he gets many killed but kept being lucky enough to have other save him - be that Sansa and Littlefinger, Stanis or the Lord of Light. He just keeps failing but is always saved by someone or something. Jon acts without thinking - always partly becuase something always turns up to save him. He also has the same intransignt Honour issues that killed Robb and started the whole civil war.
Interestingly in the last episode Jon (the lover) was asked to provide Dany (The Ruler) with comfort, but refused - a role that many women in the same position have done for their men or not and seen the conseqeuences. A grieving, desperate lover turns to him and he pulls up the honour shield.......just to twist the knife.
As Arya said without the Dragon Queen the North would all be dead (and then she would have knifed the NK which makes all the sacrifce pointless but ho hum) but all Dany now sees is her and her people's sacrfice beniftting others - as those who love her die in her service then she hardens her heart. I would agree that she does not get why she is not loved by the North - not realising that they are in fact that prejuidced (with good reason)
I did wonder if The Lord of Light will end up being connected to her families ability to survive fire and her rebirth. We have little reason to believe that he is a benevolent god?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/14 14:47:50
2019/05/14 14:48:39
Subject: Game of Thrones Season 8. Speculation and spoilers.
So prediction for next episode. Jon confronts Dany and gets mad at her for the whole murdering civilians things. She demands he shut up and submit. He refuses. She orders Drogar to roast him. Drogar obliges. Jon, being a true Targaryen, pulls a Dany and walks out of the flames and runs her thru with his sword.
Does it make sense? It really. But imagine the spectacle!
2019/05/14 14:51:21
Subject: Game of Thrones Season 8. Speculation and spoilers.
AduroT wrote: So prediction for next episode. Jon confronts Dany and gets mad at her for the whole murdering civilians things. She demands he shut up and submit. He refuses. She orders Drogar to roast him. Drogar obliges. Jon, being a true Targaryen, pulls a Dany and walks out of the flames and runs her thru with his sword.
Does it make sense? It really. But imagine the spectacle!
Except of course Jon gets burnt by normal fire never mind dragonfire but agreed, it does not have to make sense anymore.
Maybe the Lord of Light turns up and thanks her for her sacrifce to him
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"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
On Varys. Don't forget his network of Little Birds was overtaken by Qyburn. It's entirely possible it was thus compromised, and provided with dodgy details from there.
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Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: On Varys. Don't forget his network of Little Birds was overtaken by Qyburn. It's entirely possible it was thus compromised, and provided with dodgy details from there.
But it suddenly seemed to be operating all just fine before the siege?
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
AduroT wrote: So prediction for next episode. Jon confronts Dany and gets mad at her for the whole murdering civilians things. She demands he shut up and submit. He refuses. She orders Drogar to roast him. Drogar obliges. Jon, being a true Targaryen, pulls a Dany and walks out of the flames and runs her thru with his sword.
Does it make sense? It really. But imagine the spectacle!
Maybe Jon wargs into Drogon and barbecues HER! Doesn't make sense because they never ported that ability over from the books, but just *imagine* the response on social media!