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also because Dany loves a bit of fire

Montage images

Dany exmaines the row of heads on spears that Grey Worm has brought her as her army pay homage - she pauses by those of Jon and Tyrion, then shrugs and walks on.

She declares that Kings Landing was a funeral pyre for her beloved friend and should never be rebuilt.

Cersei and Jamie emerge from the rubble, clamber into a boat and sail off into the sunset

Tyrion's reaction to Dany's actions clearly have to have him responsible for her downfall in some way. He may not kill her, but I think he will play a part.

I remember when GoT wanted to be the best fantasy adaptation of a published work, surpassing LoTR. And at first it was heading that way, but after this two last seasons... nah. They have butchered this worse than ME3.

 Galas wrote:

Spoiler:

I remember when GoT wanted to be the best fantasy adaptation of a published work, surpassing LoTR. And at first it was heading that way, but after this two last seasons... nah. They have butchered this worse than ME3.

I'd agree with all of that except tyrion. He's consistently been witty and had helpful advice to give. Problem is people keep not heeding his advice.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

 Galas wrote:

Spoiler:

I remember when GoT wanted to be the best fantasy adaptation of a published work, surpassing LoTR. And at first it was heading that way, but after this two last seasons... nah. They have butchered this worse than ME3.

I'd agree with all of that except tyrion. He's consistently been witty and had helpful advice to give. Problem is people keep not heeding his advice.

He has been less helpful over last few seasons - the whole obession with not letting Dany burn the Red Keep has cost her dearly and Cersei played him like a guitar.

Sadly the writters gave him and Varys very little material or influence over the story when both/either could have been privotal.

With Dany I thought that it showed an unusual moment in GoT in that she appeared.to have learned something from past experience.

Previously anytime she acts as a benevolent ruler, even when the people are happy with her someone betrays,double crosses or attempts to kill her.

In this case someone betrayed and tried to kill her before she liberated the city and the people showed no hint of not being loyal to Cersi or loving Dany.

At that point she figured if she took this city like she normally did then history was a cast iron certainty to repeat itself, so she broke the wheel and changed tactics based on experience.

Besides it's not like the northerners can clutch there pearls to tightly given the rape rampage they were about to go on that would have most likely lead to most of the city burning anyway.

Well, she's probably going to end up dead (insert the cheers of millions of Westerosi here), so I guess that really worked out for her. She was a uniting force, alright...just not in the way she imagined.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
I'd agree with all of that except tyrion. He's consistently been witty and had helpful advice to give. Problem is people keep not heeding his advice.

If you find wiener jokes witty, then maybe. Personally I'd say his material isn't very good, but Dinklage manages to elevate it as much as he can, as great actors do.

Really, the actors have been doing their best. The directors and everyone involved on the production side have done some really great work down the stretch also. What we saw in the last episode had some real technical brilliance to it. The story just doesn't have room to breathe, and the writers have made some questionable decision even taking those constraints into account.

Hell, apparently it's their idea to end it in this many episodes, if you believe their own words (I'm not sure that I do...I think contracts are probably dictating it to some degree).

HBO would have been happy for the show to keep going, to have more episodes in the final season. We always believed it was about 73 hours, and it will be roughly that. As much as they wanted more, they understood that this is where the story ends.

https://ew.com/tv/2019/04/09/game-of-thrones-season-8-showrunners-interview/

 Mr Morden wrote:
Burn everyone who resists worked for the Targyrians for how many centuries??

It didn't. 1. Not all Targaryens were psychotic maniacs, hence the "coin flip when one is born". 2) The most brutal Targaryens, like Maegor the Cruel, were assassinated or overthrown via rebellions.

Guess which Targaryen king had the longest reign in history? Give up? It was Jaehaerys Targaryen, who was a benevolent ruler that avoided using violence whenever possible.

She still has plenty of allies

List them.

And if she does have plenty of allies, then that makes her actions even more dumb, as you and Yakface' assertion is that this act of enormous violence was necessary because she was losing support in Westeros to Jon. If that's not the case and she still had plenty of allies in the realm before going scorched earth then going scorched earth wasn't necessary.

Poltical strategy was the province of Varys and Tyrion whose suggestions since she arrived ALL resulted in disaster

Wrong. Their council got her King's Landing. The battle was won and the throne was hers. Then she went apeshit because "reasons".

its only when she went burning things that gak got done and friends/"chidren" did not die.

Her friends and children died because she ignored her advisor's council, which was to wait and make sure her ducks were all in order before setting out.

How many on her side died on the assault on Winterfell.

What does fighting the WW have to do with anything we're talking about?

How did that work out for Tommen, Robb, or Robert or the king of Dorn?

Tommen would have been a fine king but chose to bow out of the race, Robb was never a king despite the North's claims, Robert was the best king we've gotten since the story started with 20 years of peace and prosperity in the realm, there is no king of Dorn- Dorn is not a kingdom and you're rambling at this point. In any case, you're grasping at straws here. No one you listed died/lost due to a lack of ruthlessness or because of an excess of benevolence.

@Blaxican - The show has provided evidence that honor and benevolence isn't rewarded, with long runs in power.

Jon as lord commander - lets wildings through the wall to save them - dies

Dany - tries to free slaves and rule mereen, Sons of the Harpy go on killing spree.

Ned - does everything honorably and dies

FYI - Dorne is certainly a Kingdom. It is one of the 7 Kingdoms thus it is a Kingdom, Doran Martel was certainly not a King though.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Burn everyone who resists worked for the Targyrians for how many centuries??

It didn't. 1. Not all Targaryens were psychotic maniacs, hence the "coin flip when one is born". 2) The most brutal Targaryens, like Maegor the Cruel, were assassinated or overthrown via rebellions.

Guess which Targaryen king had the longest reign in history? Give up? It was Jaehaerys Targaryen, who was a benevolent ruler that avoided using violence whenever possible.

She still has plenty of allies

List them.

And if she does have plenty of allies, then that makes her actions even more dumb, as you and Yakface' assertion is that this act of enormous violence was necessary because she was losing support in Westeros to Jon. If that's not the case and she still had plenty of allies in the realm before going scorched earth then going scorched earth wasn't necessary.

Poltical strategy was the province of Varys and Tyrion whose suggestions since she arrived ALL resulted in disaster

Wrong. Their council got her King's Landing. The battle was won and the throne was hers. Then she went apeshit because "reasons".

its only when she went burning things that gak got done and friends/"chidren" did not die.

Her friends and children died because she ignored her advisor's council, which was to wait and make sure her ducks were all in order before setting out.

How many on her side died on the assault on Winterfell.

What does fighting the WW have to do with anything we're talking about?

How did that work out for Tommen, Robb, or Robert or the king of Dorn?

Tommen would have been a fine king but chose to bow out of the race, Robb was never a king despite the North's claims, Robert was the best king we've gotten since the story started with 20 years of peace and prosperity in the realm, there is no king of Dorn- Dorn is not a kingdom and you're rambling at this point. In any case, you're grasping at straws here. No one you listed died/lost due to a lack of ruthlessness or because of an excess of benevolence.

Dany is not a psycho either, she just burnt a city - meh - lots of medievil kings / rulers etc did that. Did anyone really react to Cersei blowing up their Vatican? They will get over it in a few years IF she is adecent ruler - if not - then usual problems and threats.

She just did it in person. No big deal. Her ancestors did the same you do recall HOW the Ttargyrains took the seven kingdoms right? It was not through negotaiton. They burnt anyone who stood up to them in the field of battle or in a castle with their Dragons - only Dorn managing to hold them off IIRC. Dany is doing the same - whats the issue - thats how her dynasty starts - same as the one that was begun hundreds of years ago and lasted for centuries. She has cleared the field of many enemies for any children she might have - the lack of the latter being much more of an issue if she is still barren.

Ok as you are playing with semantics - lets say Rulers or Leaders

Tommen was a nice guy - how long did his rule last? I he had some backbone the whole issue with the Church would not have been an issue and would not have ended up with his wife dead and most of the nobility but he kept trying to do the right thing "Chose to bow out the race" - really thats how you describe a desparing suicide?
Robb was "King in the North" how long did his rule last? He was another Honourable guy and where did that get him? Dead
Who was the Dorn guy then (i found them all boring but he seemed to be in charge) and kept trying to do the right thing until guess what - he was brutally killed.

"Sigh" - Dany has allies - Dorn has pledged its alligience and whoever she appoints to rule Highgarden, Riverrun etc - thats all up to her. Sansa is still not yet a outright decalred enemy, she might use the burning of Kings Landing as a propoganada tool but I seriously doubt she will care or move against Dany overtly - depends on Aryria. Tecnically she is only going to be enemies with the North due to Sam and Bran not keeping their fat mouths shut. She is going scorched earth to show what happens if Jon/Sansa declares against her

At ths point - Jon and Tyrion are threats - she should deal with them -but she is still sentimently attached to them. Doubt that will last.

NO Tyrion and Varys told her not to burn the Red Keep when she arrived in Westros which cost her time, the Ironborn fleet and most of her inital advanatages - that is all on them as is the failure of her subsequent camapign plus all those who died in the later engagements.

IF she had burnt the keep on day one (not the city just the keep) - there would have been none of later issues - Euron would not have joined a burnt queen - probably just played at being a pirate and been a nusiance at most until she brunt him with her Dragons - yeah Plural - its only due to her advisors - jon in particular that she lost her first one and the wall was breeched. If Jon had not reached her - again no problems.

Its because of the failed advice of Tyrion, Jon and Varys that she has lost almost everything - they told her to go North and fight the dead - when apparently all you needed was Bran and Arya in a tree. They told her not to assault Kings Landing until she had lost most of her army and 2 dragons and they had artillery on the walls - which somehow Varys failed to be informed off. They didn't bother bringing seige engines south of course.because....such wise and well informed advisors. How did Varys know nothing about Eurons fleet - where, how many, their weapons - what exactly has he done this season to help her - name one thing.

Tyrion assured Dany that Cersie would not betray them. Right or Wrong?

Dany took Kings Landing with her Dragon - no one else was involved? She and her dragon destroyed the entire enemy fighting force - she won the battle on her own. Then she did waht many rulers, kkings, conquererors do, she unleashed her army on the city population - standard practice for any city that refuses to surrender. For the Dothraki thats the kind of warfare they are used to all the time - loot and pillage is their reward. The Northerners hate the South for what they did to the Stark family and the Unsullied want revenge for Missendri and all they have lost against Euron and Cersei's armies.

The Dornishmen if anything, don't care or are amused that King's Landing got torched. Same is true for the Greyjoys. I doubt the average Stark footsoldier gives two gaks either. Why would they?

The only people I could see really giving a damn about this are the Lannisters, possibly the Tyrells, and those living in the Crownlands.

Sansa will care because she's afraid of Dany doing the same to the North and she doesn't want to submit to her rule.
Jon will care because he's an honor driven dunce.
Arya will care because the writers say so.
Tyrion will care because he's a Lannister and seems genuinely sick of war. Also the writer's say so and he's an idiot now.

I think the worst thing about this s8e5 is that if Dany had gone in with 3 dragons and torched the place back in s7e1/e2 the whole damn world would be better off. It's really sickening how easily s5-s8 could be redone so much better. Especially s7/s8. Cutting LSH and fAegon was an act of unfathomable idiocy.

... I think Arya will try and kill Dani -- the white horse symbolism from last episode maybe ? -- , Jon/others kill Greyworm as he tries to stop it.

Jon, forced to choose between his adopted/family or his bloodline chooses the Stark/north.

Dani dies as he stops the dragon from saving her.

In disgust he rides off north on the dragon sick of the whole scheming pack of them.


Tyrion and Co put Gendry on the throne and do their best to muddle on.

I honestly don't see Drogon being taken by Jon. He's very much Daenery's dragon.

 Gael Knight wrote:
I honestly don't see Drogon being taken by Jon. He's very much Daenery's dragon.

I agree, it seems to me that the names of the dragons were meaningful.
Viserion - named after Dany’s Evil brother, gets turned by the night king and goes evil.
Rheaghal(sp?)- names after Her good brother and Jon’s father becomes Jon’s dragon.
Drogon- named after Drogo, her late husband is loyal to her, and very protective.

I don’t see him going against her.

If these writers have been doing anything, they've been tying up loose ends as quickly as possible even if the execution is nonsensical. An uncontrolled dragon is a *significant* loose end, so I expect that Jon will either ride off on it or put it down.

I agree that Drogon was the one meant to bond with Daenerys, and that Rhaegal was meant to bond with Jon. And dragon bonding is a thing in the books. However, this is the show, and it's never been discussed IIRC. And internal consistency was tossed out the window a long time ago anyway.

It would be fun for Rhaegal to return and lead to Daenerys and Jon having their own Dance of Dragons. "Do you have the body?"/"No but I saw it lying there" is usually TV shorthand for "alive". But I don't think that's happening even if they left the door ajar.

 Gael Knight wrote:
I honestly don't see Drogon being taken by Jon. He's very much Daenery's dragon.

I don't see it either, but in the lore most dragons will accept a different rider after being ridden by one. Dragons live about 200 years and Balerion the Black Dread was ridden by at least 3 or maybe 4 people.

That last Targaryen history book sure was boring, but now I know all sorts of random, useless lore.

My guess is they leave Drogon alive and wild, because it's not clear or not whether dragons need a mate to lay eggs, and this opens the door to a world with new dragons / spinoff material (non-Targaryens have been dragon riders, as well).

 trexmeyer wrote:
The Dornishmen if anything, don't care or are amused that King's Landing got torched. Same is true for the Greyjoys. I doubt the average Stark footsoldier gives two gaks either. Why would they?

The only people I could see really giving a damn about this are the Lannisters, possibly the Tyrells, and those living in the Crownlands.

Sansa will care because she's afraid of Dany doing the same to the North and she doesn't want to submit to her rule.
Jon will care because he's an honor driven dunce.
Arya will care because the writers say so.
Tyrion will care because he's a Lannister and seems genuinely sick of war. Also the writer's say so and he's an idiot now.

I think the worst thing about this s8e5 is that if Dany had gone in with 3 dragons and torched the place back in s7e1/e2 the whole damn world would be better off. It's really sickening how easily s5-s8 could be redone so much better. Especially s7/s8. Cutting LSH and fAegon was an act of unfathomable idiocy.

Mostly agree - given that the Lanisters sacked Highgarden I doubt any survivors would be sad to see Kings landing burn.

Everything would have been better if Dany had torched the Red Keep in S7 - but her advisors convinced her not to and this is what happens.

Nothing would have happened if she just torched the red keep with Cersei inside.

Is torching everything else thats a problem.
And as the writter said, it wasn't some cold logical plan. She was just angry.

 Galas wrote:
Nothing would have happened if she just torched the red keep with Cersei inside.

Is torching everything else thats a problem.
And as the writter said, it wasn't some cold logical plan. She was just angry.

She should have done it in Season 7 not Season 8. Her advisors (the writters) made her waste that time and loose friends and dragons for nothing.

 Ouze wrote:
My guess is they leave Drogon alive and wild, because it's not clear or not whether dragons need a mate to lay eggs, and this opens the door to a world with new dragons / spinoff material (non-Targaryens have been dragon riders, as well).

Good point...I assumed they'd be prequels, but they certainly don't have to be. I think there was also some fan speculation as to whether Drogon sowed some oats when it left Daenerys and ran wild.

 gorgon wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
My guess is they leave Drogon alive and wild, because it's not clear or not whether dragons need a mate to lay eggs, and this opens the door to a world with new dragons / spinoff material (non-Targaryens have been dragon riders, as well).

Good point...I assumed they'd be prequels, but they certainly don't have to be. I think there was also some fan speculation as to whether Drogon sowed some oats when it left Daenerys and ran wild.

Well there is the old joke - "what does a dragon mate with?" "Anything it wants to" but her three do (did ) seem to be unique in this part of the world?

There are supposed to be dragons in the far East (?) but I always got the impression that the GOT world had a rising level of magic (sort of Shadowrun style) that has allowed dragons to be active again?

Dany made a blood sacrifice to activate her eggs - others may have done the same. Maybe it was that pesky lord of light again - he does like fire.....

I reckon we’ll see Sansa take charge, ruling Westeros from Winterfell.

After all, of all the major houses, it’s pretty much House Stark, and House Martel left standing.

Houses Greyjoy and Baratheon could, given time, recover (Yara and Gendry, provided Gendry’s legitimisation sticks are both of child rearing age).

But then, perhaps The Northern Troops will actually ally with Dany over Jurrrn Snurrr? They certainly showed no reservations about ripping into Kings Landing...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well, it seems to have been the fire as much as people being in it that hatched the eggs.

So Drogon, theoretically (and unless the books contradict), could’ve just breathed fire upon a clutch of otherwise fossilised eggs? I mean, Dany’s three came from somewhere, no?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I reckon we’ll see Sansa take charge, ruling Westeros from Winterfell.

After all, of all the major houses, it’s pretty much House Stark, and House Martel left standing.

Houses Greyjoy and Baratheon could, given time, recover (Yara and Gendry, provided Gendry’s legitimisation sticks are both of child rearing age).

But then, perhaps The Northern Troops will actually ally with Dany over Jurrrn Snurrr? They certainly showed no reservations about ripping into Kings Landing...

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well, it seems to have been the fire as much as people being in it that hatched the eggs.

So Drogon, theoretically (and unless the books contradict), could’ve just breathed fire upon a clutch of otherwise fossilised eggs? I mean, Dany’s three came from somewhere, no?

I also assumed it was a reference to the Targaryrian Moto - "Fire and Blood" - I think a blood and fire sacrifce makes sense.

All the Great Houses have been trashed - even the starks and Martels have lost most of their warriors and at some point someone is going to need to sort out the harvest (if anything was planted) - dany still has the remnants of some of the few non milita forces - I imagine the Burning of Kings Landing will make the Dothraki love her - thats the kind of leader/god they want. The Unsullied are stuck in a hostile foreign land and still love her.

The northerners sacking the city was something the writters got completely right -however they are in the end loyal to Jon Snow (much more than Sansa) and Dany will be, to them, the mad dragon queen - also Jon is a man - that is going to count for quite a bit.

Sansa needs to play the game carefully - and she needs a husband and a child if she is going to rule the north - Dany has the same issue with the sheer power of her dragon offestting it to a certain degree but if she is barrren then she has a big problem looming in the future - she could adopt however and make potential claiments vie for her favour..... tricky toget right but can be better than bloodlines

 Mr Morden wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
My guess is they leave Drogon alive and wild, because it's not clear or not whether dragons need a mate to lay eggs, and this opens the door to a world with new dragons / spinoff material (non-Targaryens have been dragon riders, as well).

Good point...I assumed they'd be prequels, but they certainly don't have to be. I think there was also some fan speculation as to whether Drogon sowed some oats when it left Daenerys and ran wild.

Well there is the old joke - "what does a dragon mate with?" "Anything it wants to" but her three do (did ) seem to be unique in this part of the world?

There are supposed to be dragons in the far East (?) but I always got the impression that the GOT world had a rising level of magic (sort of Shadowrun style) that has allowed dragons to be active again?

Dany made a blood sacrifice to activate her eggs - others may have done the same. Maybe it was that pesky lord of light again - he does like fire.....

I always thought that GoT had the opposite idea when it came to magic, especially the TV show. The White Walkers, the Children of the Forest, and other magical beings/powers are going away. When we enter the story of ASOIAF/GoT, we're at the tail-end of a long cycle of magic ending. The three dragons are a bit of a last hurrah, but even they can't last.

 infinite_array wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
My guess is they leave Drogon alive and wild, because it's not clear or not whether dragons need a mate to lay eggs, and this opens the door to a world with new dragons / spinoff material (non-Targaryens have been dragon riders, as well).

Good point...I assumed they'd be prequels, but they certainly don't have to be. I think there was also some fan speculation as to whether Drogon sowed some oats when it left Daenerys and ran wild.

Well there is the old joke - "what does a dragon mate with?" "Anything it wants to" but her three do (did ) seem to be unique in this part of the world?

There are supposed to be dragons in the far East (?) but I always got the impression that the GOT world had a rising level of magic (sort of Shadowrun style) that has allowed dragons to be active again?

Dany made a blood sacrifice to activate her eggs - others may have done the same. Maybe it was that pesky lord of light again - he does like fire.....

I always thought that GoT had the opposite idea when it came to magic, especially the TV show. The White Walkers, the Children of the Forest, and other magical beings/powers are going away. When we enter the story of ASOIAF/GoT, we're at the tail-end of a long cycle of magic ending. The three dragons are a bit of a last hurrah, but even they can't last.

Could be.....but isn't there a bit where the mages who capture Dany talk about magic being more powerful recently and they think its to do with her dragons?

Yup. Pretty much the quote. Which was why they tried to kidnap them, to control the supposed new source of magic.

What do you all suppose the over/under is on dany basically killing everyone, seizing control of the world, and the show's history basically restarting with a mad targaryan ruling the 7 kingdoms with an iron fist until a rebellion outs them?

It’s possible. But she’d be Queen of the Ashes, and no more.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
What do you all suppose the over/under is on dany basically killing everyone, seizing control of the world, and the show's history basically restarting with a mad targaryan ruling the 7 kingdoms with an iron fist until a rebellion outs them?

Possible but unlikely - nothing, nohow is very going to kill GRMS Avatar Sam.....

Lot depends on what Dany actually wants any more - once the ash settles,

Part of me feels the only feasible way they can end the show now, without everyone rioting, is Sansa and Tyrion sharing the throne.

Although, the key part of that sentence is "without everyone rioting." - There's a whole lot of things they could do, some have been mentioned in previous posts.

It may be that they do stick with the whole "subverting expectations" thing (How I've come to loathe that phrase after The Last Jedi) and it could practically be anyone...


Personally I do think, if the recent episodes have demonstrated anything, Game of Thrones, at the end of the day, won't end up being some great major impact event TV series that redefined television.

Instead, it will be 'remembered' in history as the 'Lost' of the 2010's.