gorgon wrote:

 CuddlySquig wrote:
I haven't seen anything since the end of Season 1 and I read some of the books, but I've read the spoilers on Dany going crazy.
I think the anger at what happened in The Bells comes from emotion. The viewers wanted her to be good. They have spent so long with her and want her to succeed because they love the person. Now that she's lost it, there is article after article on how she has been ruined because their heroine has fallen. Looking at it without any emotional investment in her, I think her actions are entirely in character.
The Dany I remember was a cold, cruel conqueror who subjugated defenseless people with her Dothraki horde, took places with her Unsullied slave legions and once burned a shaman to death for her (totally justified) refusal to return Khal Drogo to life.
"You will not hear me scream" -the shaman
"I will" -Dany

So now Dany has King's Landing and she torches it in a 'Carthage Must Be Destroyed' moment. In medieval sieges, sometimes there is no option to surrender once the fighting has begun. I suppose she might alienate her followers (including ...Tyrion? When did that happen? And are Arya and the Hound best buddies now? I thought Arya hated him.) but for a fantasy show that prides itself on realism, this is a very realistic mistake.

Well, I think you missed a lot of important character moments with Daenerys, having not seen the last seven seasons of the show.

She said "mercy is our strength" basically hours before burning innocent women and children to death. No doubt that she's had moments of *ruthlessness* all along. So one can cherry-pick that stuff and say it all fits. But everything in between those moments showed a different character. What's probably worse is that it framed her actions as an emotional tantrum after one advisor is killed and her nephew/boyfriend doesn't want to sleep with her anymore. That's the opposite of the ruthlessness she'd shown to date.

To be clear, I have zero problem with the heel turn. I expected it in the books...I just wasn't sure if the showrunners would go there. But it wasn't earned in the show. They could have planted more seeds throughout the past couple seasons. But I think they wanted 'Team Daenerys' on board until the turn.

Parents, this is why you don't name your kids after fictional characters without knowing their whole arc.

 LunarSol wrote:
I think you missed all the words she said AFTER “mercy is our strength”.

 Gael Knight wrote:

If you want a good laugh at seeing the "Yass Kween Slay" mentality die in real time watch some reaction videos on youtube it's great.

 Gael Knight wrote:
People saw Dany as good because she was committing horrid acts of violence on people that "deserved" it. So when Dany changes her position of who deserves to burn they get upset.

Dany and Drogon have single handedly destroyed the Iron Fleet and brought King's Landing to its knees. The very people who sneered at her, killed her Dragon and then her closest friend when she offered to spare them. Now, only after she has crushed them they wish to surrender? When she has clearly won? I don't think so. The Lannisters sowed the wind and they reaped it. Daenerys always was emotionally unstable, her overreaction is definitely in character and well executed imho.

I think Emilia Clarke did a great job of emoting this turmoil.



It's amusing that all those who "loved her" have dropped her instantly. Thinking she was some messiah when in reality she was just a very entitled young woman with emotional problems (and a dragon).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you want a good laugh at seeing the "Yass Kween Slay" mentality die in real time watch some reaction videos on youtube it's great.

This one is probably the most "famous"
NSFW Language.

Spoiler:

 Lance845 wrote:
You also have to remember that the show was always intended to end in the same place as the books. But it also condensed or cut a lot of the character development from the books with key events, characters, and conversations just not appearing in the show. Danny was probably always meant to go mad and destroy Kings Landing. But we are not seeing all the piece of the puzzle that get her to that place. And thats why the show just stopped being good the farther it got away from the books.

 yakface wrote:

A lot of people are describing Dany's decision to raze the city as some crazy impulsive decision she made at the spur of the moment when she heard the bells, because she went 'mad'.

I didn't see that at all. I saw a very calculated decision that she made back on Dragonstone, that she was actually quite reluctant to carry through with, but knew that she had to if she wanted to have any chance of ruling Westeros.

Because once the truth about Jon Snow got out (thanks to Sansa, Tyrion and especially Varys), she knew that her legitimate claim to the Iron Throne was now gone while Jon Snow lives. That means even if she took the Iron Throne, people would continually question/doubt her rule except by absolute force.

She gave Jon one last chance to be 'with her', presumably living as her subservient King after the war, and he shunned her. At that point she knew that her only option to rule Westeros post-war was for the people of Westeros to fear her absolutely, to the point that even Jon's true lineage would make no difference...they'd be too afraid of what she would do to stand up to her.

So at that point, before the battle even began, she had decided that she would have to raze King's Landing to prove her strength and instill fear in the people of Westeros. I felt like she even paused, waiting for the Lannisters to surrender (waiting for the bells) before truly starting the horrific demolition and mass murder, because if she had really started doing that before the surrender, then the impact of what she was doing would have been justified in the minds of some people ("it had to be done, Cersei wouldn't surrender" they would say). She wanted to make it 100% clear to everyone who managed to survive that the city had surrendered and she had 'won' before she went on to 'prove her point' that she was going to be the one true monarch post-war, regardless of Jon Snow's lineage.

In short, I have no problem at all with her choice. I don't see her as 'going mad' at all...perhaps utilizing that image to help justify her actions to others, for sure, but it wasn't an emotional decision at all.

Spoiler:

 yakface wrote:

A lot of people are describing Dany's decision to raze the city as some crazy impulsive decision she made at the spur of the moment when she heard the bells, because she went 'mad'.

I didn't see that at all. I saw a very calculated decision that she made back on Dragonstone, that she was actually quite reluctant to carry through with, but knew that she had to if she wanted to have any chance of ruling Westeros.

Because once the truth about Jon Snow got out (thanks to Sansa, Tyrion and especially Varys), she knew that her legitimate claim to the Iron Throne was now gone while Jon Snow lives. That means even if she took the Iron Throne, people would continually question/doubt her rule except by absolute force.

She gave Jon one last chance to be 'with her', presumably living as her subservient King after the war, and he shunned her. At that point she knew that her only option to rule Westeros post-war was for the people of Westeros to fear her absolutely, to the point that even Jon's true lineage would make no difference...they'd be too afraid of what she would do to stand up to her.

So at that point, before the battle even began, she had decided that she would have to raze King's Landing to prove her strength and instill fear in the people of Westeros. I felt like she even paused, waiting for the Lannisters to surrender (waiting for the bells) before truly starting the horrific demolition and mass murder, because if she had really started doing that before the surrender, then the impact of what she was doing would have been justified in the minds of some people ("it had to be done, Cersei wouldn't surrender" they would say). She wanted to make it 100% clear to everyone who managed to survive that the city had surrendered and she had 'won' before she went on to 'prove her point' that she was going to be the one true monarch post-war, regardless of Jon Snow's lineage.

In short, I have no problem at all with her choice. I don't see her as 'going mad' at all...perhaps utilizing that image to help justify her actions to others, for sure, but it wasn't an emotional decision at all.

 yakface wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
You also have to remember that the show was always intended to end in the same place as the books. But it also condensed or cut a lot of the character development from the books with key events, characters, and conversations just not appearing in the show. Danny was probably always meant to go mad and destroy Kings Landing. But we are not seeing all the piece of the puzzle that get her to that place. And thats why the show just stopped being good the farther it got away from the books.

Or you know, she didn't go mad. She made the only logical choice she could to move forward given the crap circumstance she ended up in.

If you look at her face before she goes on the bombing run of the city, she doesn't show rage or madness. She is almost crying, because she hates what she feels like she has to do. Going mad would mean that she doesn't realize (or doesn't care) about what one does. Her emotions do not show that at all.

I mean, we'll find out in the final episode whether or not they actually show her as losing her mind at all. But my personal reading of what we saw in this episode was not any kind of madness, but rather her knowing she had to do something horrible in order for her to finally gain what she fought nearly her whole life to achieve.

Galas wrote:You are giving just too much credit to the same writters that said she kinda of forgott about the Iron Fleet. Shes clearly horribly written. There was no such depth analysis from D&D point of view to writte her to do that to Kings Landing and you know it.

Lance845 wrote:Sorry I more meant "mad" as in "mad king" burning everything. She may have very legit reasons for burning everything and hate to do it,but to everyone involved it doesn't matter, shes now the last targaryen, the mad queen danny, who came to kingslanding from across the narrow see and with an army of foreigners and northmen burned kings landing to the ground.

 Gael Knight wrote:
It was deserved in her mind, and that's kind of the point I was trying to make.

It's the surrender bells that drive her mad. She had come to them with surrender before, after they had killed her dragon and they rejected her.

The people aren't slaves in King's Landing. They didn't need to stay. They sealed their own fate when they sheltered under the "protection" of Cersei. A tacit act in Dany's mind that they had chosen the wrong Queen and wanted her dead.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Scorpion vs Dragons Round 1: Dragons flying in a predictable path are shot by attackers that they didn't know were there until the first shot hit.

Scorpion vs Dragons Round 2: Dany uses the sun to blind them, attacks their flanks, goes low to force them to aim down, then immediately goes high forcing them to waste shots and then aim up. Then she takes the walls from the side, rather than the front.

There's no "suddenly Stormtroopers!". It's just the difference between being ambushed and planning an attack.

 yakface wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
You also have to remember that the show was always intended to end in the same place as the books. But it also condensed or cut a lot of the character development from the books with key events, characters, and conversations just not appearing in the show. Danny was probably always meant to go mad and destroy Kings Landing. But we are not seeing all the piece of the puzzle that get her to that place. And thats why the show just stopped being good the farther it got away from the books.

Or you know, she didn't go mad. She made the only logical choice she could to move forward given the crap circumstance she ended up in.

If you look at her face before she goes on the bombing run of the city, she doesn't show rage or madness. She is almost crying, because she hates what she feels like she has to do. Going mad would mean that she doesn't realize (or doesn't care) about what one does. Her emotions do not show that at all.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Watching and rewatching that scene, at least for myself, what I'm seeing on her face is someone who's mad that someone is trying to spoil her vengeance trying to give up before she can really get in there and make someone feel the pain, knows she really shouldn't, and then deciding "eh, **** it, I came here to burninate and I'm gonna damn well do it anyway"

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Scorpion vs Dragons Round 1: Dragons flying in a predictable path are shot by attackers that they didn't know were there until the first shot hit.

Scorpion vs Dragons Round 2: Dany uses the sun to blind them, attacks their flanks, goes low to force them to aim down, then immediately goes high forcing them to waste shots and then aim up. Then she takes the walls from the side, rather than the front.

There's no "suddenly Stormtroopers!". It's just the difference between being ambushed and planning an attack.

That seems to be happening right now. All of a sudden this crazy story about my finishing THE WINDS OF WINTER and A DREAM OF SPRING years ago is popping up everywhere. No, I am not going to provide links. I don’t want to reward purveyors of misinformation with hits.

I will, however, say for the record — no, THE WINDS OF WINTER and A DREAM OF SPRING are not finished. DREAM is not even begun; I am not going to start writing volume seven until I finish volume six

It seems absurd to me that I need to state this. The world is round, the Earth revolves around the sun, water is wet… do I need to say that too? It boggles me that anyone would believe this story, even for an instant. It makes not a whit of sense. Why would I sit for years on completed novels? Why would my publishers — not just here in the US, but all around the world — ever consent to this? They make millions and millions of dollars every time a new Ice & Fire book comes out, as do I. Delaying makes no sense. Why would HBO want the books delayed? The books help create interest in the show, just as the show creates interest in the books.

So… no, the books are not done. HBO did not ask me to delay them. Nor did David & Dan. There is no “deal” to hold back on the books. I assure you, HBO and David & Dan would both have been thrilled and delighted if THE WINDS OF WINTER had been delivered and published four or five years ago… and NO ONE would have been more delighted than me.

I have said it before: don’t believe everything you read on the internet.

Except here, of course.

 yakface wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
You also have to remember that the show was always intended to end in the same place as the books. But it also condensed or cut a lot of the character development from the books with key events, characters, and conversations just not appearing in the show. Danny was probably always meant to go mad and destroy Kings Landing. But we are not seeing all the piece of the puzzle that get her to that place. And thats why the show just stopped being good the farther it got away from the books.

Or you know, she didn't go mad. She made the only logical choice she could to move forward given the crap circumstance she ended up in.

If you look at her face before she goes on the bombing run of the city, she doesn't show rage or madness. She is almost crying, because she hates what she feels like she has to do. Going mad would mean that she doesn't realize (or doesn't care) about what one does. Her emotions do not show that at all.

I mean, we'll find out in the final episode whether or not they actually show her as losing her mind at all. But my personal reading of what we saw in this episode was not any kind of madness, but rather her knowing she had to do something horrible in order for her to finally gain what she fought nearly her whole life to achieve.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 yakface wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
You also have to remember that the show was always intended to end in the same place as the books. But it also condensed or cut a lot of the character development from the books with key events, characters, and conversations just not appearing in the show. Danny was probably always meant to go mad and destroy Kings Landing. But we are not seeing all the piece of the puzzle that get her to that place. And thats why the show just stopped being good the farther it got away from the books.

Or you know, she didn't go mad. She made the only logical choice she could to move forward given the crap circumstance she ended up in.

If you look at her face before she goes on the bombing run of the city, she doesn't show rage or madness. She is almost crying, because she hates what she feels like she has to do. Going mad would mean that she doesn't realize (or doesn't care) about what one does. Her emotions do not show that at all.

I mean, we'll find out in the final episode whether or not they actually show her as losing her mind at all. But my personal reading of what we saw in this episode was not any kind of madness, but rather her knowing she had to do something horrible in order for her to finally gain what she fought nearly her whole life to achieve.

It's not a logical decision at all though because a queen with enemies everywhere is a queen whose reign won't last long. You're trying to argue that the only winning strategy left for her is to try to rule through unquestionable force. How did that work out for Aerys? How did that work out for Jofferey? How did that work out for Cersei, as this episode just showed? Being a ruthless tyrant guarantees nothing except for a stab in the back.

"It was the only logical strategy left" doesn't apply when we have empirical evidence and history (all in-universe) pointing to that strategy being a failing one. So you have two options for the character. Either a) she's just insane and is thinking irrationally, or b) she's stupid and she doesn't understand political strategy at all.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 yakface wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
You also have to remember that the show was always intended to end in the same place as the books. But it also condensed or cut a lot of the character development from the books with key events, characters, and conversations just not appearing in the show. Danny was probably always meant to go mad and destroy Kings Landing. But we are not seeing all the piece of the puzzle that get her to that place. And thats why the show just stopped being good the farther it got away from the books.

Or you know, she didn't go mad. She made the only logical choice she could to move forward given the crap circumstance she ended up in.

If you look at her face before she goes on the bombing run of the city, she doesn't show rage or madness. She is almost crying, because she hates what she feels like she has to do. Going mad would mean that she doesn't realize (or doesn't care) about what one does. Her emotions do not show that at all.

I mean, we'll find out in the final episode whether or not they actually show her as losing her mind at all. But my personal reading of what we saw in this episode was not any kind of madness, but rather her knowing she had to do something horrible in order for her to finally gain what she fought nearly her whole life to achieve.

It's not a logical decision at all though because a queen with enemies everywhere is a queen whose reign won't last long. You're trying to argue that the only winning strategy left for her is to try to rule through unquestionable force. How did that work out for Aerys? How did that work out for Jofferey? How did that work out for Cersei, as this episode just showed? Being a ruthless tyrant guarantees nothing except for a stab in the back.

"It was the only logical strategy left" doesn't apply when we have empirical evidence and history (all in-universe) pointing to that strategy being a failing one. So you have two options for the character. Either a) she's just insane and is thinking irrationally, or b) she's stupid and she doesn't understand political strategy at all.

did that work out for Aerys? How did that work out for Jofferey? How did that work out for Cersei, as this episode just showed? Being a ruthless tyrant guarantees nothing except for a stab in the back.

Game of Thrones has betrayed the women who made it great.

Spoiler:

‘Too strong for a husband to control’ ... Daenerys Targaryen (Emilia Clarke) in Game of Thrones.

Once you could have argued it was a feminist show, but now GoT is letting down its female characters in a shockingly tone deaf way – from ‘unstable’ Daenerys to weeping Brienne

Until recently, you could make the argument that Game of Thrones was a stealthily feminist show. In its early years it might have lured in the typical male fantasy crowd with sex, violence and alpha-male characters like Ned and Robb Stark, Robert Baratheon and Jaime Lannister, but before you knew it a woman was on the Iron Throne, her main challenger was also a woman, and Westeros was stuffed full of female assassins, knights, wily politicos and Dame Diana Rigg. Sure, the show still asked us to ogle naked female bodies once a week, and there was still a worryingly relaxed attitude to rape, but we fantasy-loving female viewers have learned to take our victories where we can – and Game of Thrones was one of them.

Which is why it’s so frustrating to see the show slip back into its old ways in this final season. Coming off the back of The Long Night’s excellent twist ending – where Arya, rather than the expected hero Jon Snow, killed the Night King – the latest episode is especially disappointing. So many of the show’s strongest female characters were undermined by showrunners David Benioff and DB Weiss, who also wrote this episode.

First, a caveat: personally, I’m thoroughly enjoying Daenerys’ descent into complete megalomania. Anyone who thinks it’s an unbelievable character shift for her weren’t paying attention during her seven straight seasons of setting people who don’t agree with her on fire. Daenerys was never going to be the right person for the Iron Throne – and neither is Cersei, who also has a history of blowing up her enemies. Heck, if they weren’t fighting over the Iron Throne, the two of them would probably get on like a Sept on fire.

First, a caveat: personally, I’m thoroughly enjoying Daenerys’ descent into complete megalomania. Anyone who thinks it’s an unbelievable character shift for her weren’t paying attention during her seven straight seasons of setting people who don’t agree with her on fire. Daenerys was never going to be the right person for the Iron Throne – and neither is Cersei, who also has a history of blowing up her enemies. Heck, if they weren’t fighting over the Iron Throne, the two of them would probably get on like a Sept on fire.

Spoiler:

So having two female villains is not at all anti-feminist – in fact, it’s refreshing – but it gets wearisome when, in The Last of the Starks, Tyrion and Varys all but decide that Jon Snow is the rightful king to oppose these mad queens, chiefly because he’s a man. Sure, he hasn’t resorted to solving his problems with explosions, which is certainly a tick in the plus column, but he’s also a notoriously terrible politician, and last time he was put in charge of something he got murdered in a mutiny. None of his major battles were won by him – Sansa bailed him out in the Battle of the Bastards, and Arya saved the day in the Battle for Winterfell. Jon’s only qualifications for the throne are that he’s a Targaryen, and a bloke.

To hear Tyrion and Varys – characters who have always been portrayed as egalitarian – say that Jon’s gender would make him a better leader than Daenerys is just depressing. And to see Daenerys being rejected as a potential queen for being too “strong” for a husband to control, not to mention being portrayed as emotionally unstable when a man in her position would be depicted simply as a bit of a dick, is a betrayal of the character.

But that storyline, at least, can be justified by the ‘historical’ context. Kings held more weight than queens in the medieval period that Game of Thrones is loosely referencing. Elsewhere in the episode, female characters were dealt much more egregious wrongs. A mere two weeks after her triumphant knighting, Brienne ended the episode wailing over a man while wearing a nightgown – one of the only times we’ve seen her out of her armour.

Spoiler:

lsewhere, Sansa’s brutal abuse at the hands of Ramsay Bolton was used against her twice. I forgave the show for its cruel treatment of Sansa a season ago, when it became clear that her story was one of survival rather than victimhood. But Thrones rarely passes up an opportunity to remind us of her rapes. It undermines a character who has refused to be beaten or defined by her suffering, especially when, in the latest episode, she credits her abuse for transforming her from a ‘little bird’ into what she is now. As Jessica Chastain pointed out on Twitter, it was Sansa and Sansa alone who transformed herself into the strong and savvy leader she is – not the men who abused and manipulated her. If the writers don’t understand that, how can we trust them to tell Sansa’s story properly?

Worst of all, though, was the treatment of Missandei. As Game of Thrones’ only regular female character of colour, the show had a responsibility to not mess her arc up. And yet we found ourselves watching a former slave – who only wanted to return to the home country she was stolen from, and who had dedicated the last few years of her life to helping Daenerys wipe out slavery – get captured and beheaded while handcuffed, all so that her death could give Daenerys the final justification she needed to burn this mother down. It’s a move so shockingly tone deaf as to make you wonder how anyone in the writer’s room ever thought it was a good idea.

Spoiler:

The writing staff on Game of Thrones has always been male-dominated, with only four episodes in the show’s history being credited to female writers. Season eight is written and directed entirely by men (only one woman, Michelle MacLaren, has ever directed Thrones), although there has been at least one woman in the writer’s room, Gursimran Sandhu, this time around.

It’s worth pointing out that not every female character is currently being let down. Arya rejecting Gendry’s proposal was pure Arya, and at least Lyanna Mormont died as she lived – taking down people much bigger than her. Cersei is also being resolutely true to herself – it just so happens that she’s a completely dreadful person. But the latest episode made such vast missteps with the characters of Sansa, Brienne and Missandei in particular that it’s hard to see how the show is going to turn it around with only two episodes to go. Game of Thrones was supposed to be a story about the underdogs, the ‘cripples, bastards and broken things’, as one first season episode title put it. If it turns out that a white, male, true-born heir is the saviour after all, it will feel like the show has missed its own point.