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Made in ca
Irked Necron Immortal





 An Actual Englishman wrote:
They could release another 15 books covering every intricate aspect of Orkish warfare across all possible warzones and I'd buy them all happily.

You either want more content for your faction or you don't. You don't "need" anything except the rulebook and respective codex to play. No one forced anyone to buy the v2 SM codex but I bet it flew off the shelves. No doubt these books will too. I think they're a great idea and one of the best things that GW have announced so far.


Well, really, you don't need more than the free primer and the indexes.
The game still works!

Girl Gamers are the best! 
   
Made in gb
Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel






 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
Hate to break it to you but the new codex has invalidated the old codex. If you want to play at any event, not just a GW one, you have to use the new codex, the old one does not have the same rules, statlines, abilities or points. Not to mention the rules are way better for marines, so you'd be an idiot not to buy it if you want to be competitive and live in an area where people don't mind running old rules for private games. Which I fear will be the same for psychic awakening (not the invalidation but the power of the rules).

I understand what you're saying with regards the new SM codex invalidating the old for competitive play but I think it's so incredibly trivial to get all of the new rules without splashing cash that it's not a real concern.

If I collected SM, I'd buy the book, but it's up to the individual player of course.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






In a Trayzn pokeball

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
Hate to break it to you but the new codex has invalidated the old codex. If you want to play at any event, not just a GW one, you have to use the new codex, the old one does not have the same rules, statlines, abilities or points. Not to mention the rules are way better for marines, so you'd be an idiot not to buy it if you want to be competitive and live in an area where people don't mind running old rules for private games. Which I fear will be the same for psychic awakening (not the invalidation but the power of the rules).

I understand what you're saying with regards the new SM codex invalidating the old for competitive play but I think it's so incredibly trivial to get all of the new rules without splashing cash that it's not a real concern.

If I collected SM, I'd buy the book, but it's up to the individual player of course.

It's not just for competitive, if you want to play anywhere except your garage (or your friend's) you need the new book. At which point you can play whatever you want anyway. And it feels a little dirty to me getting everything through battlescribe. Which I recognise is entirely personal preference.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/29 22:48:47


 JohnHwangDD wrote:
The hobby is actually hating GW.
 iGuy91 wrote:
You love the T-Rex. Its both a hero and a Villain in the first two movies. It is the "king" of dinosaurs. Its the best. You love your T-rex.
Then comes along the frakking Spinosaurus who kills the T-rex, and the movie says "LOVE THIS NOW! HE IS BETTER" But...in your heart, you love the T-rex, who shouldn't have lost to no stupid Spinosaurus. So you hate the movie. And refuse to love the Spinosaurus because it is a hamfisted attempt at taking what you loved, making it TREX +++ and trying to sell you it.
 Elbows wrote:
You know what's better than a psychic phase? A psychic phase which asks customers to buy more miniatures...
the_scotsman wrote:
Dae think the company behind such names as deathwatch death guard deathskullz death marks death korps deathleaper death jester might be bad at naming?
 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




I wish I could buy just the rules pages and leave the fluff for black library, my bag is getting heavy. Also still salty about "you can get the new codex or vigilus ablaze" for CSM, hah! you mean I can get both.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/29 23:37:17


 
   
Made in us
Courageous Space Marine Captain




On the Internet

Campaign books are only required if you want the extra rules or lore. Vigilus didn't update core points costs or drastically change unit rules.

Heck, Vanguard came out in a box set and had a pamphlet for the new rules. Vigilus gave us a couple of units and detachment rules but that's it really outside of the setting for campaign games.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 ClockworkZion wrote:
Campaign books are only required if you want the extra rules or lore. Vigilus didn't update core points costs or drastically change unit rules.

Heck, Vanguard came out in a box set and had a pamphlet for the new rules. Vigilus gave us a couple of units and detachment rules but that's it really outside of the setting for campaign games.


Well, the second Vigilus book did, unfortunately. The renegade stuff in that should have been in CSM 2019. It was a pretty big blunder.

[im]https://imgur.com/kEUzFF0.png[im]

http://insighthammer.com/ 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 ClockworkZion wrote:
Campaign books are only required if you want the extra rules or lore.


IOW, if you want to compete with armies that do get the buffs.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
Courageous Space Marine Captain




On the Internet

 Peregrine wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
Campaign books are only required if you want the extra rules or lore.


IOW, if you want to compete with armies that do get the buffs.

Aka "want the rules". Competetive play requires chasing the meta at all points.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/30 00:31:37


 
   
Made in us
Ancient Chaos Terminator





Eye of Terror

Long shot, wild theory: "Psychic Awakening" refers to the Emperor's resurrection.

He's not getting off the throne, but he's now able to project his might through his minons and lackeys. In practical terms, this means new psychic powers.

His resurrection has consequences for every other faction. Chaos is able to breach the veil between the Immaterium and realspace more effectively. The Eldar are torn about whether or not to treat him as a new God. The Orks get all anxious and this builds their own psychic might.

   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 ClockworkZion wrote:
Aka "want the rules". Competetive play requires chasing the meta at all points.


And given that most people play competitively enough for the rules to matter it's kind of dishonest to pretend that the supplements are optional.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in fi
Chaplain with Hate to Spare






It is very simple, if you want it, you buy it, if you don't want it, you don't. This thread is bloody stupid.

Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane. 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 ClockworkZion wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
Campaign books are only required if you want the extra rules or lore.


IOW, if you want to compete with armies that do get the buffs.

Aka "want the rules". Competetive play requires chasing the meta at all points.


Have there been any formations that have had an out-sized impact on the game? The most I've seen are the casual one-sie/two-sie models getting a set of buffs. Namely discordants and the occasional manticore.

I haven't seen any of these cracking the top tables. And the ones that do were typically alongside a Castellan or a blob of Discordants.

Victrix Guard
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Host Raptorial
Fallen Angels
Legion of Skulls



[im]https://imgur.com/kEUzFF0.png[im]

http://insighthammer.com/ 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 Crimson wrote:
It is very simple, if you want it, you buy it, if you don't want it, you don't. This thread is bloody stupid.


If you like negative opinions of GW's business practices then click on threads about them, if you don't like them then you don't. This comment is bloody stupid.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Have there been any formations that have had an out-sized impact on the game?


The LRBT formation and its relic are effectively mandatory if you're taking LRBTs.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/30 00:44:08


There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
Courageous Space Marine Captain




On the Internet

 Peregrine wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
Aka "want the rules". Competetive play requires chasing the meta at all points.


And given that most people play competitively enough for the rules to matter it's kind of dishonest to pretend that the supplements are optional.

Statistically competetive play is still in the minority.

Should we have a better way for the rules only players? Probably. But let's not inflate the issue beyond a smaller number of players.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Peregrine wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
It is very simple, if you want it, you buy it, if you don't want it, you don't. This thread is bloody stupid.


If you like negative opinions of GW's business practices then click on threads about them, if you don't like them then you don't. This comment is bloody stupid.

Nah, this is still stupid. The title was clickbait nonsense worthy of Spikey Bits.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/08/30 00:51:37


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Peregrine wrote:


The LRBT formation and its relic are effectively mandatory if you're taking LRBTs.


But few people are persuaded into an army based around LRBTs even though it exists.

[im]https://imgur.com/kEUzFF0.png[im]

http://insighthammer.com/ 
   
Made in jp
Longtime Dakkanaut





 BaconCatBug wrote:
Yet more rules bloat. GW are really trying to push it to needing 150 rules sources aren't they?


BINGO. Do I win a prize?
   
Made in us
Courageous Space Marine Captain




On the Internet

 Mmmpi wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
Yet more rules bloat. GW are really trying to push it to needing 150 rules sources aren't they?


BINGO. Do I win a prize?

A sad sense of looming dread when you realize this nonsense never ends.

The salt must flow.
   
Made in us
Revving Ravenwing Biker




Hanoi, Vietnam.

There seem to be some major false narratives surrounding this discussion between what is needed, and what is optional. Now I don't know about which style of play is "statistically" more prevalent, but allow me to offer my own anecdote. I currently own two, eighth edition books: the 40k rulebook and Codex: Dark Angels. I have never once been denied a game or been beholden to some rule I didn't possess, just because I don't own a copy of Vigilus or Chapter Approved, whether it be in Open, Narrative or Matched Play. Now while there are a couple of Chapter Approved rules that have become house suggestions for my local store, these are all explained freely by the people who know them to those who don't, because that's how house suggestions work here. Also, I call them suggestions, because if my mate and I want to rock over to a table and completely ignore them, no one's going around policing the tables for "non-conformance." So, again, absolutely zero requirement for anyone to own a book they don't want.

I'd also like to add something very interesting I just learned about an upcoming tournament in my area: if you're a Space Marine player who doesn't yet own the new codex, you're more than welcome to continue relying entirely on the old one, points costs and all. The same goes for Codex: Chaos Space Marines and the Indices. The only caveat is that you can't mix and match between both the old and the new. You use the one you have, and that's it. So you see, all of these issues about being forced to buy stuff you don't want are all rendered moot, when we as a community just act like grown-ups and come up with reasonable solutions to let us play with our toys, and before someone chimes in with the nugget that my area is somehow the outlier and no one else shares this experience: why? Why is my area the outlier? If you're part of a scene that's forcing people to invest in stuff they don't want just so they can play the game, and you're not actively doing anything to change that scene beyond moaning on the internet, then you're not just part of the problem; you are the problem.

Now look, don't get me wrong. I'm not entirely defending Games-Workshop's publication practices: I think the price they charge for bound paper is outrageous, and don't even get me started on the cost of digital books, but this narrative that they're forcing you to buy stuff, otherwise you can't play the game is outright false.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/08/30 01:30:17


 
   
Made in gb
Shas'la with Pulse Carbine




Eastern Fringe

 Peregrine wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
Aka "want the rules". Competetive play requires chasing the meta at all points.


And given that most people play competitively enough for the rules to matter it's kind of dishonest to pretend that the supplements are optional.


This just isn't true. GW has stated on numerous occasions that significantly more people just buy the models to collect and paint than they do to play with.

As others have said... You don't NEED to do anything. I don't NEED to buy a new phone every year, and I don't begrudge a company releasing a new updated one every year. Why wouldn't they? Once again, the crying moaners of Dakka are out in force. If you don't like it, stop playing.

The first rule of unarmed combat is: don’t be unarmed. 
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Cutting stuff up and bunging it back together in new and interesting ways.






Under the couch

 Peregrine wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
Aka "want the rules". Competetive play requires chasing the meta at all points.


And given that most people play competitively enough for the rules to matter it's kind of dishonest to pretend that the supplements are optional.

It's not dishonest at all. You only 'need' a campaign supplement if you are choosing to use the rules in that supplement. Whether you're playing competitively or not, that's entirely your choice. You're not forced to use any given set of rules just because it exists.


   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






 insaniak wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
Aka "want the rules". Competetive play requires chasing the meta at all points.
And given that most people play competitively enough for the rules to matter it's kind of dishonest to pretend that the supplements are optional.
It's not dishonest at all. You only 'need' a campaign supplement if you are choosing to use the rules in that supplement. Whether you're playing competitively or not, that's entirely your choice. You're not forced to use any given set of rules just because it exists.
All rules are optional. They aren't if you like winning.

Add me on Discord: BaconCatBug#0294
+++++There are currently ELEVENTY BLOODY ONE (111) documents required to play Warhammer 40,000 8th edition+++++
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Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
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Userscript to add a button to open all "[First Unread]" links on the page, hides the "[Blog View]" links, and adds a "Subscribed Threads" link to forum pages.  
   
Made in us
Revving Ravenwing Biker




Hanoi, Vietnam.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
All rules are optional. They aren't if you like winning.
Which is entirely no one's problem but one's own. And if one finds oneself complaining to strangers on the internet that they cannot win the dice game with their toys, then one should expect to be ridiculed and compared to a petulant child.
   
Made in us
Courageous Space Marine Captain




On the Internet

 BaconCatBug wrote:
All rules are optional. They aren't if you like winning.

Says the person who misinterprets rules to stir the pot.

If you are so hellbent on needimg to win a game with plastic space people that it defines your very idea of "fun", then maybe you need to rethink why you play this game. Because dropping fat stacks of cash all the time just to chase the meta is not exactly healthy.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/30 02:12:22


 
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Cutting stuff up and bunging it back together in new and interesting ways.






Under the couch

Nope, wanting to win doesn't require you to play using a campaign book. Choosing to not use a given supplement doesn't have to just mean that you ignore it while your opponent chooses to use it... that would be absurd.


This really isn't a difficult concept. Way back in 2nd edition, players quite often discussed whether or not to use psykers in their games. Tournaments quite often didn't allow special characters or allies... a trend that continued for several editions.

In 3rd edition, players discussed whether or not to use the Cityfight rules, or the Jungle rules from Codex: Catachans. Later, we were agreeing whether or not to use the trial vehicle or assault rules. In 4th edition, it was Cities of Death, or which mission set to use.

Somehow, some people seem to have forgotten that a game is a contract between two players. You can play competitively, and still not want to play using the rules from a specific campaign.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/30 02:10:14


   
Made in us
Courageous Space Marine Captain




On the Internet

 insaniak wrote:
Nope, wanting to win doesn't require you to play using a campaign book. Choosing to not use a given supplement doesn't have to just mean that you ignore it while your opponent chooses to use it... that would be absurd.


This really isn't a difficult concept. Way back in 2nd edition, players quite often discussed whether or not to use psykers in their games. Tournaments quite often didn't allow special characters or allies... a trend that continued for several editions.

In 3rd edition, players discussed whether or not to use the Cityfight rules, or the Jungle rules from Codex: Catachans. Later, we were agreeing whether or not to use the trial vehicle or assault rules. In 4th edition, it was Cities of Death, or which mission set to use.

Somehow, some people seem to have forgotten that a game is a contract between two players. You can play competitively, and still not want to play using the rules from a specific campaign.

Most of us didn't forget, it's just a vocal minority stirring the pot because if they don't get their daily dose of screaming into the void of the internet they can't feel fulfilled in their life.

Yes, it's hyperbole, but it's no less hyperbolic than every single one of these Spikey Bits style clickbait trash threads that spread misinformation and salt in the name of internet drama
   
Made in jp
Longtime Dakkanaut





xenoterracide wrote:
I wish I could buy just the rules pages and leave the fluff for black library, my bag is getting heavy. Also still salty about "you can get the new codex or vigilus ablaze" for CSM, hah! you mean I can get both.


Buy the PDF's and just print out the specific pages you need.
   
Made in us
Courageous Space Marine Captain




On the Internet

 Mmmpi wrote:
xenoterracide wrote:
I wish I could buy just the rules pages and leave the fluff for black library, my bag is getting heavy. Also still salty about "you can get the new codex or vigilus ablaze" for CSM, hah! you mean I can get both.


Buy the PDF's and just print out the specific pages you need.

Keeping PDFs on your phone as back up is pretty lightweight too.
   
Made in jp
Longtime Dakkanaut





 ClockworkZion wrote:
 Mmmpi wrote:
xenoterracide wrote:
I wish I could buy just the rules pages and leave the fluff for black library, my bag is getting heavy. Also still salty about "you can get the new codex or vigilus ablaze" for CSM, hah! you mean I can get both.


Buy the PDF's and just print out the specific pages you need.

Keeping PDFs on your phone as back up is pretty lightweight too.


Yup. I suggested print outs though because I've been in too many games where my opponent's phone just 'happened' to die.
   
Made in gb
Sagitarius with a Big F'in Gun




Like if you like to collect rulebooks (lore/narrative reasons) and or have multiple armies this is a pain if every faction has their own Narrative Book. It's also kind of lame that Viglius got thrown under the bus so quickly. Whos to say that Psychic Awakening won't be instantly out of date when it hits the shelves. Saying you should pay for the aweful Battlescribe is stupid. Also the Awakening makes every new SM codex out of date when they are hardly even released.

8th edition spend £1k on your army and £1k on your books to play your army edition.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/30 04:23:02


 
   
Made in ca
Courageous Space Marine Captain





They've changed the setting full of mystery and room to manuvre into yet another copy of the mcu


yes because the MCU is the only thing ever that has a interconnected plot ohh wait thats not true at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ThatMG wrote:
Like if you like to collect rulebooks (lore/narrative reasons) and or have multiple armies this is a pain if every faction has their own Narrative Book. It's also kind of lame that Viglius got thrown under the bus so quickly. Whos to say that Psychic Awakening won't be instantly out of date when it hits the shelves. Saying you should pay for the aweful Battlescribe is stupid. Also the Awakening makes every new SM codex out of date when they are hardly even released.

8th edition spend £1k on your army and £1k on your books to play your army edition.


vigilius was only really made out of date for Marines and tyo be honest the Marines vigilus stuff was kinda annoying. no one else had all but one of their specialist detachments limited by subfaction.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/08/30 04:36:33


Ultimately the power of an Inquisitor extends as far as he can make it extend 
   
 
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