Female Chaos Space Marines?

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**Excommunicatus**

ScarletRose wrote:
Excommunicatus wrote:

You cannot be a Chaos Space Marine unless you were once a Space Marine

That's not strictly true. In Dead Sky Black Sun the warsmith Honsou was clearly making chaos marines using a combination of demonic energy and weird biological experiments by placing aspirants into a corrupted womb thing. They went from being human straight to being chaos marines.

I'm sure Fabius Bile probably has cloning or other techniques to just make chaos marines as well.

If it's not made in Champany, it's just fizzy wine.

**nareik**

Most chaos power armoured supertroops are just fizzy wine then. I like it!

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

Excommunicatus wrote:
[Citation Needed]

I read the last twenty pages of the Rulebook, nothing even remotely like what you're selling here exists there.

No not that one, the other book with the rules!

Excommunicatus wrote:
If it's not made in Champany, it's just fizzy wine.

Champagne!

**Ashaar**

nareik wrote:
Most chaos power armoured supertroops are just fizzy wine then. I like it!

Thousand Sons = armour full of dust
Any other Chaos Space Marine = armour full of wine and bubbles

I like this too. Give me chaos wine marines!

**Sgt. Cortez**

Excommunicatus wrote:
ScarletRose wrote:
Excommunicatus wrote:

You cannot be a Chaos Space Marine unless you were once a Space Marine

That's not strictly true. In Dead Sky Black Sun the warsmith Honsou was clearly making chaos marines using a combination of demonic energy and weird biological experiments by placing aspirants into a corrupted womb thing. They went from being human straight to being chaos marines.

I'm sure Fabius Bile probably has cloning or other techniques to just make chaos marines as well.

If it's not made in Champany, it's just fizzy wine.

We know other Traitor Legions also recruit from worlds in the Eye of Terror, not every CSM once was a SM, I'd go so far as to say that many legions probably have been mostly replaced by recruits from the eye during the last 10K years. Just think about how many CSM GW likes to kill as cannon fodder in their novels, yet they're still the same strength as in 30K, DG has become even larger, Black Legion seems to do well, too.

**Excommunicatus**

Coolbeans.

So what?

**Tiennos**

ArcaneHorror wrote:
There may well be a ton of fallen Sisters, but knowledge of them might be even more classified than that of Chaos Marines. This may be due to the Sisters' connection to the Ecclesiarchy, since if it got out that the most zealous defenders of the Church were able to be swayed by the whispers of crazy space monsters, faith in the Imperial Creed and the entire Imperium as a whole might take a serious hit.

I think there aren't many fallen sisters because their hatred of anything slightly heretical applies to themselves first of all. Any sister asking questions about chaos would be executed or made a repentia real fast, even if she wasn't really corrupted at all.

I agree that the ones that slip through the cracks and actually join chaos would be kept secret, though.

**Excommunicatus**

How does that not also apply to Astartes, who fall seemingly more often than toddlers?

The whole 'fall to Chaos' thing isn't like, openly question the Emperor at breakfast, grow tentacles at noon.

It's a bit more subtle than that.

**Tiennos**

As far as I know, astartes don't really worship the Emperor as a god. They're more into duty and honor than zeal and faith. I'm not necessarily saying it makes them more open to corruption, but that they're less worried about how faithful every brother is and more about how they do their job. Or maybe "the Emperor protects" those that pray hard enough...

Also, marines tend to live very long while the average sister's life expectancy is probably not that great. More time in contact with chaos means more chances of getting tainted.

**the_scotsman**

Excommunicatus wrote:

You cannot be a Chaos Space Marine unless you were once a Space Marine.

This is canonically false. There are many many many many many many instances of chaos and renegade warbands creating new Chaos Space Marines by exalting cultists and other mortal champions.

And you can say "Well that makes them NOT a chaos space marine" all you like, but that is not how GW refers to those marines, and GW writes the canon.

Here's where we're starting from: "This is the side that plays by all the rules and follows all the proper forms and procedures for creating space marines.

They have blood-crazy vampires, werewolves, dudes who grow bone spikes, and thousands of other quirks and mutations.

Now here is the side that DOESN'T follow any of those rules and procedures. Guess what they got going on?"

It continuously boggles my mind that a playerbase 100% cool with a procedure that accidentally produces werewolves and vampires gets instantly reduced to spluttering denials when it comes to the procedure working on women.

**Excommunicatus**

Sort of like GW's 'canon' is in fact just contradictory nonsense with no sort of guiding principle or intelligence, isn't it?

'Cause no, they're not Astartes.

I'm still not arguing in favour of GW's blatant pandering to its most toxic fanbase. Just like the last time you tried to nudge-nudge, wink-wink accuse me of misogyny.

**queen_annes_revenge**

The procedure wouldn't work on men either. .. There's an awesome post somewhere on here where a doctor picks apart the space marine creation process and body modifications.

I feel like CSM are just going to create more male CSM out of habit and familiarity more than anything else.

The crux of this issue is that this universe was designed at a time when women did not serve in the armed forces in front line, infantry or special forces roles. The fact that they managed to create a female faction of badass warrior nuns was pretty damn progressive of them at that time.

Personally, and without further flogging the female SM issue, I don't think ret conning the entire universe to fit modern ideals is the way forward.

CSM Could be an interesting way of creating female marines if you were dead set on doing it.

**Frazzled**

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
While I know that the marines are mostly male they do have the Sisters of Battle, so does Chaos have something of a counterpart?

Fluff: Chaos can do anything Chaos wants on a Chaos Demon world.

Interesting fluff for your personal lists:
* Female Chaos Troopers. Chaos doesn't require geneseed and men to make female marines or more precisely enhanced female armored troopers. Chaos gifts allow this withch cult similar abilities. Conversion opportunities abound!

*Female Advanced Armor troopers. Your fluff involves an advanced IoM (or nonIoM) world who's advanced technologies replicate armored troopers. Either the armor or genetic enhancements replicate marines. Even more conversions!

**Just Tony**

Excommunicatus wrote:I'm still not arguing in favour of GW's blatant pandering to its most toxic fanbase. Just like the last time you tried to nudge-nudge, wink-wink accuse me of misogyny.

Don't they have outlets for your political activism? Is it necessary to beat that drum here, especially when it's explicitly against the rules of the site?

**Arachnofiend**

YeOldSaltPotato wrote:
pelicaniforce wrote:
Patriarchal imperium makes it seem like a cartoon a but.

Yes, that is the point.

In the Imperium there’s industrial scale oppression and to me it’s more convincing that everyone is a cog, especially space marines the living weapons, and every amount of individual identity is stripped away and all that matters is if they can be trained to hate and if they can pull the trigger. It also is more brutal because women have always played roles in genocide, even if it is a little less dramatized than roving bands of troops.

Damn, the point just left.

40k is heroic legend perverted authoritarian demands of a million sacrifices made in the name of security or necessity. And all it takes to make either of those to be considered true is for captain authoritarian, the emperor, to say so. So if the emperor is an ancient misogynistic prick, you don't get female space marines.

And really, this is the guard. They're the average foot sloggers that hold ground and eventually grind the entire population to dust. Space marines are your ... actually having trouble deciding who I want to offend here, so let's go generic, they are your photo op special forces. They are a force crafted for an image, which was selected by a really old man with a minor god complex and a major chip up his butt. It only makes sense that the decision is far from purely practical, he made that image and little of what he does is particularly practical. The imperium isn't practical, it's a nightmare. It's the image of where you get when you follow someone like the emperor, and all his follow up cronies once the original is stuck in the golden can.

Misplaced decimals devastate planets for missing tithe and leave armies to starve in the field. It's far from some functional, logical super state that people kinda have to make it be in their minds to actually like the imperium.

There doesn't seem to be any top-down misogyny anywhere other than the structure of the Adeptus Astartes - there are women among the commanding officers of every other organization in the Imperium, it's not unusual to see a female inquisitor or company commander.

My theory is that the Emperor himself was in fact a misogynistic bastard, and that's just one of his philosophies that he wasn't able to get to stick in the wider Imperium. If Big E hadn't made a deliberate effort to exclude women from becoming space marines there likely would be female space marines.

**NinthMusketeer**

I find the explanation of 'men are more biologically suited to combat' explanation for marines to be pretty reasonable, given that they are.

**Tiennos**

NinthMusketeer wrote:
I find the explanation of 'men are more biologically suited to combat' explanation for marines to be pretty reasonable, given that they are.

Making people even more "biologically suited to combat" is the whole point of the space marines. If women could be made into space marines, there probably wouldn't be much of a difference after all the hormone growth and extra organs were in.

**queen_annes_revenge**

Whoa easy there pal, can't be throwing around facts like that haphazard nowadays, even if they are based in science.