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 grouchoben wrote:
Well I've had a think about it and the good news is this: I honestly think this is a very strong indicator that GW have plans for Deathwach to be substantially changed as a faction.

From your mouth to God's ears.

 grouchoben wrote:

Their reticence to include the new units that every other SM faction has received (bar the special-tidey-silver boys) suggests they don't want DW moving towards SM factions, and want them to keep a narrow roster, and their total lack of specific rules also suggests that GW don't want to exhaust the design space, in turn suggesting that they might be planning on roling them into an Inquisition faction. I mean, it is quite strange that Inquisition haven't really had any new rules except that WD piece. I think in about a year we'll see a big shakeup.

It suggests nothing whatsoever of the kind.

Sterling191 wrote:

 grouchoben wrote:
Well I've had a think about it and the good news is this: I honestly think this is a very strong indicator that GW have plans for Deathwach to be substantially changed as a faction.

From your mouth to God's ears.

 grouchoben wrote:

Their reticence to include the new units that every other SM faction has received (bar the special-tidey-silver boys) suggests they don't want DW moving towards SM factions, and want them to keep a narrow roster, and their total lack of specific rules also suggests that GW don't want to exhaust the design space, in turn suggesting that they might be planning on roling them into an Inquisition faction. I mean, it is quite strange that Inquisition haven't really had any new rules except that WD piece. I think in about a year we'll see a big shakeup.

It suggests nothing whatsoever of the kind.

Hah! Yeah you're right, I'm stretchinnnng. A xenophobic space-fascist can dream though eh?

Let's be honest, the reason for many decisions Games Workshop makes are more business oriented than creative oriented. Nothing wrong with that really. In fact, it can be beneficial in many ways. The problem arises when Games Workshop only relies on playing it safe with their decisions (probably after the burn of AoS release), and playing it safe can stifle the creation of something new or interesting rather than bringing back stuff of old.

So does playing it safe mean they're worried about keeping DW balanced, or does it mean they're trying to direct DW players to buy SMs?

This Deathwatch patch-up is surely just a stop-gap. From a business standpoint, it makes no sense to not add the vanguard line as an option to sell more of the same models, unless they have something completely new in order for them.
However, even though it's been a looong time since shadowspear came out, the line is still incomplete. Suppressors are only available in the start collecting kit and cannot take a deathwatch shoulder pad. If GW wants to expand the Deathwatch by adding a Vanguard kill-team, they will do it when that line is available separately and sell you a new codex at the same time. There may also be new units to add in the forms of speeders/bikes.

It certainly doesn't take anything away from how lame this update was, it was the bare minimum effort required. I do believe that something changed in the design process for this series since Deathwatch was in the original graphic for an update in PA, and surely this WD add-on was not all that was intended. Perhaps they deemed it wiser to postpone a proper update until more marine kits were available.

Or they just don't want Deathwatch to feature Vanguard units outside of the Reivers.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Or they just don't want Deathwatch to feature Vanguard units outside of the Reivers.

Be foolish not to. Can’t go and say it’s because Vanguard units can’t be veterans or important and/or skilled marines, because they already wrote themselves away from that by saying any marine could strip down to Phobos gear if needed. And, they especially showed how that was possible when they made the Chapter Master of the Raven Guard a model wearing Phobos armor with gear.

A Vanguard Killteam is very highly thematic for what Deathwatch does, and the vanguard units need Deathwatch rules in grand 40K as well as Killteam.

 Apple Peel wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Or they just don't want Deathwatch to feature Vanguard units outside of the Reivers.

Be foolish not to. Can’t go and say it’s because Vanguard units can’t be veterans or important and/or skilled marines, because they already wrote themselves away from that by saying any marine could strip down to Phobos gear if needed. And, they especially showed how that was possible when they made the Chapter Master of the Raven Guard a model wearing Phobos armor with gear.

A Vanguard Killteam is very highly thematic for what Deathwatch does, and the vanguard units need Deathwatch rules in grand 40K as well as Killteam.

Need is a strong word

Dudeface wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Or they just don't want Deathwatch to feature Vanguard units outside of the Reivers.

Be foolish not to. Can’t go and say it’s because Vanguard units can’t be veterans or important and/or skilled marines, because they already wrote themselves away from that by saying any marine could strip down to Phobos gear if needed. And, they especially showed how that was possible when they made the Chapter Master of the Raven Guard a model wearing Phobos armor with gear.

A Vanguard Killteam is very highly thematic for what Deathwatch does, and the vanguard units need Deathwatch rules in grand 40K as well as Killteam.

Need is a strong word

Anything can be applied as a strong word.

Super weird that you keep thinking that nobody other than regular marines are using Chaplains, and when they do, it's always Master of Sanctity with the reroll.

You can focus on 33% failure all you want, but I choose to stick more with 66% success, more if I want to use a reroll dice. For my Dark Angels, negating the death penalty for overcharging plasma is an absolute boon, and the DA specific litany is no joke either. After Ritual of the Damned, my first purchases were 2 more typhoon land speeders and a jump chaplain. DA groups have all been doing the same thing.

So again, not sure where you are coming up with this all-encompassing truth that you constantly spout on this forum, when my own experience and those are others simply deny it unequivocally

As far as the psyker Vs chaplain argument, I know if I can get doom or jinx off 66% of the time with no chance of denying it? I'd buy that for a dollar! Craftworlds have some of the most reliable psykers via strats and warlord traits.
Litanies look have been balanced by the start of the turn restrictions because they're very reliable compared to psychic powers.

spam deleted

Reds8n

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Reds8n

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Considering the engine war or whatever its called is not out yet thanks to the virus I'm sure this is just something to give out to people in a WD that they didn't print out yet

 fraser1191 wrote:
Considering the engine war or whatever its called is not out yet thanks to the virus I'm sure this is just something to give out to people in a WD that they didn't print out yet

WD would have been printed a long time ago, at least the content for it would have been finished. Definitely not a virus issue.

intreast level issue maybe? could be death watch and harliquins just aren't selling well?

 bullyboy wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
Considering the engine war or whatever its called is not out yet thanks to the virus I'm sure this is just something to give out to people in a WD that they didn't print out yet

WD would have been printed a long time ago, at least the content for it would have been finished. Definitely not a virus issue.

Yes, it was already printed before february 27th, when the SM nerf was released, duty eternal was changed, doctrines were changed, and adaptive strategy was deleted. What is even more ridiculous is that the WC preview article still shows the old duty eternal, and adaptive strategy. No one bothered to change it.

Sterling191 wrote:

The Newman wrote:

Combat Doctrines for DW explicitly lists SIA as one of the things that does stack with it.

Kraken and Vengeance are still hard capped at specific AP values. Doctrines dont change that.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but so what?

Stalker Bolt Rifles are already at Ap 2 or 3, they don't need better Ap. What they need is a higher S, wounding on 2s drastically improves their performance on their preferred targets.

Autobolters are making the same decision DW vets are making every turn about which ammo is best because they don't have any base AP to begin with, they're just trading a shot for being able to operate at twice the range vs Vets.

Bolt Rifles ... ok, you have me there. Thing is, DW players weren't touching Bolt Rifles with a 10' pole anyway because unlike Stalkers and Autobolters then do care about Bolter Discipline not working with SIA and that more than negates what few advantages they have over SB/SS Vet squads. I'll acknowledge that's a problem but I'll also observe that a non-choice on a data card is the rule rather than the exception in 40k.

...Doctrines do make "SIA or Bolter Discipline?" a little less of a non-question though.

Edit: One other thought, now that DW have Doctrines a primarily DW player can soup in other marines without breaking Doctrines. If really I want Suppressors or Eliminators or whatever in my DW list that badly then at least adding them via soup isn't costing me any effectiveness in my DW detachments.

Yeah we're all agreed, funnily enough, that the weakness of not having a superdoctrine means souping is stronger.

Exactly, and if all you want are units that are common to all marines, then going for custom trait seems a no brainer since you won't be gaining any super doc already. However, you can also soup them in with more specific builds such as Ravenwing/Deathwing, Blood Angels sanguinary guard, etc.

Personally, I'm still considering just adding Phobos centered battalion (Libby, Captain, 2x Incursors, 1x Infiltrators, 1 Invictor, 2x eliminators...approx 775pts) and painting them as Deathwatch but using custom traits....bolter fusillades and Preferred Enemy (whatever xenos I'm fighting). Better second traits I know, but want it to still feel somewhat Deathwatch ish.

 bullyboy wrote:
Exactly, and if all you want are units that are common to all marines, then going for custom trait seems a no brainer since you won't be gaining any super doc already. However, you can also soup them in with more specific builds such as Ravenwing/Deathwing, Blood Angels sanguinary guard, etc.

Personally, I'm still considering just adding Phobos centered battalion (Libby, Captain, 2x Incursors, 1x Infiltrators, 1 Invictor, 2x eliminators...approx 775pts) and painting them as Deathwatch but using custom traits....bolter fusillades and Preferred Enemy (whatever xenos I'm fighting). Better second traits I know, but want it to still feel somewhat Deathwatch ish.

I'm with you in principle right up to that line. If I have two detachments with different rules they better be visually distinct from each other from the other side of the table.

The Newman wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
Exactly, and if all you want are units that are common to all marines, then going for custom trait seems a no brainer since you won't be gaining any super doc already. However, you can also soup them in with more specific builds such as Ravenwing/Deathwing, Blood Angels sanguinary guard, etc.

Personally, I'm still considering just adding Phobos centered battalion (Libby, Captain, 2x Incursors, 1x Infiltrators, 1 Invictor, 2x eliminators...approx 775pts) and painting them as Deathwatch but using custom traits....bolter fusillades and Preferred Enemy (whatever xenos I'm fighting). Better second traits I know, but want it to still feel somewhat Deathwatch ish.

I'm with you in principle right up to that line. If I have two detachments with different rules they better be visually distinct from each other from the other side of the table.

well, that's cool because you and I won't be playing, so no loss to either. They will be painted Deathwatch, and it's hardly a stretch to say "anything that's vanguard marine, is from the custom detachment". Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out.....no Intercessors, no aggressors, nothing that could be currently taken in Deathwatch would be in this detachment, purely phobos related dudes.

A couple things:
1. Anytime they post army rules in White Dwarf outside of a codex, they are usually a disappointment. I say usually, because I can't think of a time when I saw army rules in WD that knocked my socks off, but I don't play every army, don't buy every WD, and so can't say with certainty that they are always "bad".

2. It SEEMS LIKE GW may have reached a point in 8th where there is a "glut" of armies and rules, and it's hard for them to make every army "viable", to keep up with the ever changing meta, and give players what they want. SOME effort is better then NO EFFORT, and GW could have just as easily done nothing at all for Deathwatch.

Small point of history: Deathwatch started out in White Dwarf, with a DW "upgrade" sprue you could get for Space Marines, and some special rules. They eventually got a phamplet codex, that still wasn't a full army. Now they have a full codex, unique models, and can be a full army. It feels kinda appropriate that an update to them would be in White Dwarf.

 bullyboy wrote:
Exactly, and if all you want are units that are common to all marines, then going for custom trait seems a no brainer since you won't be gaining any super doc already. However, you can also soup them in with more specific builds such as Ravenwing/Deathwing, Blood Angels sanguinary guard, etc.

Personally, I'm still considering just adding Phobos centered battalion (Libby, Captain, 2x Incursors, 1x Infiltrators, 1 Invictor, 2x eliminators...approx 775pts) and painting them as Deathwatch but using custom traits....bolter fusillades and Preferred Enemy (whatever xenos I'm fighting). Better second traits I know, but want it to still feel somewhat Deathwatch ish.

Cute and all for 40K proper, but doesn’t mean anything for when playing Killteam. I would so go and buy a box of reivers, infiltrators/incursors, and eliminators and Deathwatch upgrades if I could make a Deathwatch Vanguard Killteam for Killteam. I’d ideally then be able to spring board into 40K using that as the base for a small Deathwatch force to soup with Scions.

 Tamwulf wrote:
A couple things:
1. Anytime they post army rules in White Dwarf outside of a codex, they are usually a disappointment. I say usually, because I can't think of a time when I saw army rules in WD that knocked my socks off, but I don't play every army, don't buy every WD, and so can't say with certainty that they are always "bad".

So when you say army, you don't mean minor faction like Assassins or Inquisitors, right? Both of those had favorable WD Codexes. Heck, Assassins were everywhere unit they nerfed the Stratagem.

 Tamwulf wrote:
SOME effort is better then NO EFFORT, and GW could have just as easily done nothing at all for Deathwatch.

Ah yes, the "Be happy with your abusive relationship" defense has arrived. I was wondering how long it would take for that garbage to shuffle on in.

Sterling191 wrote:

 Tamwulf wrote:
SOME effort is better then NO EFFORT, and GW could have just as easily done nothing at all for Deathwatch.

Ah yes, the "Be happy with your abusive relationship" defense has arrived. I was wondering how long it would take for that garbage to shuffle on in.

The only abusive relationship you have is with yourself in your weird bubble-reality where getting more/better rules than most other factions got in Psychic Awakening is somehow "bad".

Dial it down

Does anyone else think that for the last PA book should’ve been DW, harlequins and Necrons? Like, it’s not as if the Inquisition have their own Chamber Militant specifically for dealing with xenos? Sisters just got a codex do they really need more?

Qyleterys wrote:
Does anyone else think that for the last PA book should’ve been DW, harlequins and Necrons? Like, it’s not as if the Inquisition have their own Chamber Militant specifically for dealing with xenos? Sisters just got a codex do they really need more?

You ask that question instead of asking why DW, Harlequins, Sisters, and Necrons weren’t all in the same book?