So, anyone else more disappointed than usual with the Deathwatch "update"

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**grouchoben**

I guess you have to say Ynnari have gotten the worst of all PA updates, in that it was almost a straight reprint of their WD. They did get some hefty point drops however, to take the edge off that.

Drukhari come next in the terribad ranking, but you do have to bear in mind that they were utterly bossing the meta at the time that their PA rules were being written. GW's inherent lag problem with their insistence on sticking to printed rules messed that release up a bit, but they still got a boatload of new rules - there was, at least, someone there in GW writing rules for them, assigning names, working out the mechanics, judging how much power creep they should be awarded (almost zero being the answer). And they got the potent rebirth of Drazhar and his wacky Incubi sidekicks.

Then there's DW. They are functionally third-worst in the PA, but to DW players it's going to feel particularly bad for two reasons: 1) lack of all of the new releases for marines since their codex dropped two years ago and 2) utter disregard for the faction's health or identity - not a single new rule, not a single new relic, power, trait, strat, doctrine or unit. It's a non-release.

Those whining about how DW aren't a faction: I ignore you and your ineffable grievances. Those whining about how DW are totally OP and the best marinez already gosh: I scratch my head at how anyone could come to that conclusion from the 8th data.

**bullyboy**

grouchoben wrote:
I guess you have to say Ynnari have gotten the worst of all PA updates, in that it was almost a straight reprint of their WD. They did get some hefty point drops however, to take the edge off that.

Drukhari come next in the terribad ranking, but you do have to bear in mind that they were utterly bossing the meta at the time that their PA rules were being written. GW's inherent lag problem with their insistence on sticking to printed rules messed that release up a bit, but they still got a boatload of new rules - there was, at least, someone there in GW writing rules for them, assigning names, working out the mechanics, judging how much power creep they should be awarded (almost zero being the answer). And they got the potent rebirth of Drazhar and his wacky Incubi sidekicks.

Then there's DW. They are functionally third-worst in the PA, but to DW players it's going to feel particularly bad for two reasons: 1) lack of all of the new releases for marines since their codex dropped two years ago and 2) utter disregard for the faction's health or identity - not a single new rule, not a single new relic, power, trait, strat, doctrine or unit. It's a non-release.

Those whining about how DW aren't a faction: I ignore you and your ineffable grievances. Those whining about how DW are totally OP and the best marinez already gosh: I scratch my head at how anyone could come to that conclusion from the 8th data.

This covers it for the most part. I am extremely disappointed, mostly due to the absolute lack of effort. I would have much preferred if GW just didn't list DW as getting an update in PA, then there wouldn't have been any hope or expectation.

As mentioned...zero lore and how they are operating within PA.
Basic SM update with old versions of rules/strats
Zero new additions (relics, WTs, strats, litany, super doc)
No access to vanguard (we knew this was coming, but still disappointing at this stage)

It definitely ranks as one of the worst PA updates. I don't even consider Ynnari an update, it was just putting the rules in a more permanent place. Craftworlds is far better, even without new relics, traits and strats. Drukhari is probably worse, they got shafted.
All other marine updates are far, far better.

One thing DW did get, by default getting nothing, the ability to still soup and really not lose much. So there is that.

**Mr Morden**

grouchoben wrote:
Then there's DW. They are functionally third-worst in the PA, but to DW players it's going to feel particularly bad for two reasons: 1) lack of all of the new releases for marines since their codex dropped two years ago and 2) utter disregard for the faction's health or identity - not a single new rule, not a single new relic, power, trait, strat, doctrine or unit. It's a non-release.

Those whining about how DW aren't a faction: I ignore you and your ineffable grievances. Those whining about how DW are totally OP and the best marinez already gosh: I scratch my head at how anyone could come to that conclusion from the 8th data.

Thats the problem of being both a Subfaction and also a Standalone Codex Faction. Stuff does not get updated with the primary faction as it should.

**Ice_can**

DW pre codex 2.0 certainly out played marines in win rates.
Codex 2.0 esentially haded out a more iffy GW version of specialist ammo to marines plus new units strategums.

The issue is when an army is as bad as marines 1.0 was the only people taking them to events are let's be blunt noy hoping for a 0 loss or 1 loss finish in that event.

So the data looks terrible from a wr perspective as the good players never use the faction, those of us trying for a mid table 50% win rate go oh non of the top players are playing it and swap armies, so your left with the die hard fluff fans and the this is my army I'll see what i can do guys being the only people playing the codex and realisticly they aren't the people likely to be able to push a 1 loss or draw result from an event.

GW over buffed marines, becuase of the above. but they also gave half of that overbuff by giving marines something DW already had which was additional AP.

DW yeah might not have the oh look at all the shiny new rules stuff but when your army isn't that bad and marines have already had to be nerfed more than once ofcourse you weren't going to get codex 2.0 levels of buff as that would have just been 3 months of utter og yannari cheese before being nerfed down to new yannari.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Anyone saying them gaining litanies is a Boon is actually wrong. Litanies are randumb and need a 3+ to go off. Any strategy relying on them is a non-winning Strategy. They also don't get the more reliable Master of Sanctity, which is really the only reason that Litanies as is come close to even working.

**Ice_can**

LunarSol wrote:
The push to mono armies in general has me pretty out on the game as a whole. The difference between owning 2000 points of a single codex and 1000 or so of 2-3 is enough that everything just feels spammy and bland.

DW as a concept is crippled by the move. Getting rules that punish us for fitting in with other factions means we have to compete as a mono faction and just... don't. 2000 points of pure DW is just too limited to function. A single Battalion has been fine for all of 8th, but you rapidly run out of things to take.

I'm definitely disappointed in the direction the game's taken since the Space Marine codex as a whole.

Not every enjoys being forced to take Guard or admech to make their supposed codex army actually functional either.

GW has made a mess of the allies mechanic with it being all benifits and no downsides. They had to hand out mono faction bonuses to be able to correct their earlier mistake.

**Martel732**

I agree with Ice_can. Soup had too many upsides. Being able to bolt on 4 pt dum dums to marines is very powerful. There should be a penalty.

**Vaktathi**

Ice_can wrote:
LunarSol wrote:
The push to mono armies in general has me pretty out on the game as a whole. The difference between owning 2000 points of a single codex and 1000 or so of 2-3 is enough that everything just feels spammy and bland.

DW as a concept is crippled by the move. Getting rules that punish us for fitting in with other factions means we have to compete as a mono faction and just... don't. 2000 points of pure DW is just too limited to function. A single Battalion has been fine for all of 8th, but you rapidly run out of things to take.

I'm definitely disappointed in the direction the game's taken since the Space Marine codex as a whole.

Not every enjoys being forced to take Guard or admech to make their supposed codex army actually functional either.

GW has made a mess of the allies mechanic with it being all benifits and no downsides. They had to hand out mono faction bonuses to be able to correct their earlier mistake.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^so much this.

I can understand the draw of armies with allies, but they need to have downsides or you're basically just giving everyone extra tools they may not have been designed to have, either through CP batteries, unit types or abilities, or other such things. In practice, pretty much every army I saw running allies over the last several editions was doing so purely for power purposes, not because people had a smattering of stuff laying around from different factions they wanted to play together (and GW is *atrocious* at supporting non-competitive style narrative play despite their unending obsession with it). GW's unfortunate but pretty typical design response to opening those floodgates was to instead pump even more power options into mono-armies to shift away from soup, opening up yet more issues.

**Martel732**

spam deleted.
Reds8n

**harlokin**

spam deleted.

reds8n

**Eldarain**

It's pretty sad but I've been in a "wait till 9th" holding pattern since they entered the terrible Astartes/PA phase of this edition. Kill Team is still fun.

**NinthMusketeer**

I am disappointed GW did not extend the new marine rules & units to all the various sub-codex via errata when the new codex first dropped, which would still have left room for PA to add new relics & stratagems for specific factions.

**Mr Morden**

NinthMusketeer wrote:
I am disappointed GW did not extend the new marine rules & units to all the various sub-codex via errata when the new codex first dropped, which would still have left room for PA to add new relics & stratagems for specific factions.

Just make them all Supplements - saves all this half assed crap, only one printing of each element plus the ineviatable FAQ to fix them

**Apple Peel**

Mr Morden wrote:
NinthMusketeer wrote:
I am disappointed GW did not extend the new marine rules & units to all the various sub-codex via errata when the new codex first dropped, which would still have left room for PA to add new relics & stratagems for specific factions.

Just make them all Supplements - saves all this half assed crap, only one printing of each element plus the ineviatable FAQ to fix them

No.
Two big marine books. Codex compliant and non-compliant. GK and DW go into Imperial Agents.

**BaconCatBug**

Apple Peel wrote:
Mr Morden wrote:
NinthMusketeer wrote:
I am disappointed GW did not extend the new marine rules & units to all the various sub-codex via errata when the new codex first dropped, which would still have left room for PA to add new relics & stratagems for specific factions.

Just make them all Supplements - saves all this half assed crap, only one printing of each element plus the ineviatable FAQ to fix them

No.
Two big marine books. Codex compliant and non-compliant. GK and DW go into Imperial Agents.

So anyone who wants to just play Space Wolves has to pay £50 extra for rules they don't want or need? I guess we can just throw all the Eldar into one book too. How about putting Orks and Eldar in the same book since they were both creations of the Old Ones? Hell, put Necrons in there too because they were part of the War in Heaven. Then lets put T'au in the book too because they were made by the Eldar.

**Tyel**

Lack of a super doctrine is a lame.

I'm sure they will get Primaris Second Wave at some point. Not really sure why its now. Just say there will be an upgrade kit out soon?
Will they get the Faith and Fury bonuses? Maybe.

Right now though, yeah. You are basically playing SM minus. Or, depending on how you rate veterans, Primaris minus.

I still think the faction is okay for casual games based on the raw power of Marines now - but yeah. Its not going anywhere, there is very little flavour to the faction. Just say they are Iron Hands.

**Apple Peel**

BaconCatBug wrote:
Apple Peel wrote:
Mr Morden wrote:
NinthMusketeer wrote:
I am disappointed GW did not extend the new marine rules & units to all the various sub-codex via errata when the new codex first dropped, which would still have left room for PA to add new relics & stratagems for specific factions.

Just make them all Supplements - saves all this half assed crap, only one printing of each element plus the ineviatable FAQ to fix them

No.
Two big marine books. Codex compliant and non-compliant. GK and DW go into Imperial Agents.
So anyone who wants to just play Space Wolves has to pay £50 extra for rules they don't want or need? I guess we can just throw all the Eldar into one book too. How about putting Orks and Eldar in the same book since they were both creations of the Old Ones? Hell, put Necrons in there too because they were part of the War in Heaven. Then lets put T'au in the book too because they were made by the Eldar.

So anyone who wants to just play Imperial Fists has to pay £50 extra for rules they don't want or need?
So anyone who wants to just play Ultramarines has to pay £50 extra for rules they don't want or need?
So anyone who wants to just play White Scars has to pay £50 extra for rules they don't want or need?
So anyone who wants to just play Militarum Tempestus has to pay £50 extra for rules they don't want or need?

Yes. Those definitely extra “50” on top of what’s being paid now. With rules for making custom non-compliant chapters, too. It’s come with a unit editor that gives a unit a maybe good boon with either a higher points cost and/or a nerf in another area. This unit is exclusive to <Your Dudes> chapter.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, quite sure Eldar making Tau has been retconned out.

**The Newman**

the_scotsman wrote:
[snip]3) SIA also does not play nice with Combat Doctrines. Two of the SIA types are AP improvements, which won't stack with CDs, Wound on 2s ammo is always an option, but I've very commonly run into situations where you can either get an extra wound shift from AP-2 ammo or you can get into rapid fire range with AP-1+6" range, which is important because as mentioned deathwatch effectively don't get Bolter Discipline. This would lead most DW armies to stick to Devastator, but I think it's pretty obvious that this is a pre-FAQ document that will just get FAQed.[/snip]

Combat Doctrines for DW explicitly lists SIA as one of the things that does stack with it. That's great for Primaris, and DW pretty much ignored Primaris in favor of Storm Shield / Stormbolter Vets. Not everyone brings an arny that can handle an army-wide 3++ save after all. Now that Intercessors can stack the extra AP they bring by default with CDs and SIA and the Primaris-specific strats there's a reason to at least look at them.

Although it's weird that DW who are supposed to be the anti-xenos Marines are actually the best Marines for killing Power Armor but aren't noticably better than vanilla Marines at killing Xenos.

**Sterling191**

The Newman wrote:

Combat Doctrines for DW explicitly lists SIA as one of the things that does stack with it.

Kraken and Vengeance are still hard capped at specific AP values. Doctrines dont change that.

**bullyboy**

That really isn't true, sure you can mitigate a little but you cannot make something auto. A Chaplain is a boost but not something that you must rely one.

**shortymcnostrill**

Apple Peel wrote:
BaconCatBug wrote:
Apple Peel wrote:
Mr Morden wrote:
NinthMusketeer wrote:
I am disappointed GW did not extend the new marine rules & units to all the various sub-codex via errata when the new codex first dropped, which would still have left room for PA to add new relics & stratagems for specific factions.

Just make them all Supplements - saves all this half assed crap, only one printing of each element plus the ineviatable FAQ to fix them

No.
Two big marine books. Codex compliant and non-compliant. GK and DW go into Imperial Agents.
So anyone who wants to just play Space Wolves has to pay £50 extra for rules they don't want or need? I guess we can just throw all the Eldar into one book too. How about putting Orks and Eldar in the same book since they were both creations of the Old Ones? Hell, put Necrons in there too because they were part of the War in Heaven. Then lets put T'au in the book too because they were made by the Eldar.

So anyone who wants to just play Imperial Fists has to pay £50 extra for rules they don't want or need?
So anyone who wants to just play Ultramarines has to pay £50 extra for rules they don't want or need?
So anyone who wants to just play White Scars has to pay £50 extra for rules they don't want or need?
So anyone who wants to just play Militarum Tempestus has to pay £50 extra for rules they don't want or need?

Yes. Those definitely extra “50” on top of what’s being paid now. With rules for making custom non-compliant chapters, too. It’s come with a unit editor that gives a unit a maybe good boon with either a higher points cost and/or a nerf in another area. This unit is exclusive to <Your Dudes> chapter.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, quite sure Eldar making Tau has been retconned out.

This, also bcb seems to be mixing up the keywords. For example, putting all eldar (<aeldari&gt

into one book would be the same as putting all marines, guard, sisters and all the other <imperium> factions in one book. Craftworlders for example already have all of their "chapters" bundled in a book, it's called codex: craftworld eldar.

**Tyel**

I do find it strange - because this isn't entirely unique to this thread - that people seem to think 3+ to use an ability is low odds, but WC7 is something worth pitching for.

I think the main whinge is the power creep.
On his own a chaplain would be so-so.
In a world where other SM factions can spend 2 CP to get an additional power and make the odds of failure on both 1/9 rather than 1/3, he's just obsolete.

Which is why I think stratagems to make units better full stop at the outset of games is a bad direction for the game to go in - but its too late now.

**the_scotsman**

Tyel wrote:
I do find it strange - because this isn't entirely unique to this thread - that people seem to think 3+ to use an ability is low odds, but WC7 is something worth pitching for.

I think the main whinge is the power creep.
On his own a chaplain would be so-so.
In a world where other SM factions can spend 2 CP to get an additional power and make the odds of failure on both 1/9 rather than 1/3, he's just obsolete.

Which is why I think stratagems to make units better full stop at the outset of games is a bad direction for the game to go in - but its too late now.

Well, it's OK, only codex space marines gets to do that. In other factions, when you have that kind of ability, it's something like 2CP to give a captain aura to a troupe master, not "double the number of powers you get and halve the odds of failure, WooOOOoooOO!"

**Tyel**

the_scotsman wrote:
Well, it's OK, only codex space marines gets to do that. In other factions, when you have that kind of ability, it's something like 2CP to give a captain aura to a troupe master, not "double the number of powers you get and halve the odds of failure, WooOOOoooOO!"

To a degree - but while due to the virus I've not been able to see I think you are going to find every Ork army takes advantage of their various Kustom Jobs in fairly predictable ways.

Which isn't to say "omg nerf" - but if a unit is always played in a certain way, it should probably just have those rules on the datasheet and be priced accordingly. Rather than giving the illusion you are some master of list building. See also the various inevitable (and required to vaguely have a chance) GSC combinations.

Creating this non-points based economy makes the game harder to balance, when the main element of doing so is points tweaks in CA.

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

Apple Peel wrote:
Mr Morden wrote:
NinthMusketeer wrote:
I am disappointed GW did not extend the new marine rules & units to all the various sub-codex via errata when the new codex first dropped, which would still have left room for PA to add new relics & stratagems for specific factions.

Just make them all Supplements - saves all this half assed crap, only one printing of each element plus the ineviatable FAQ to fix them

No.
Two big marine books. Codex compliant and non-compliant. GK and DW go into Imperial Agents.

Just one book.
In the book you have traits like "Born in the saddle" (you get access to veteran bikers), "Genetic downfall" (you get access to a melee unit of "bestial marines"), ...
They come with a drawback of some short (either you pay points for them, or they prevent you from using certain units...)
There is a small appendix at the end of the book giving you the traits for official chapters (White Scars get "born in the saddle", space wolves and blood angels get "bestial marines", ...) if you want them.

**Sunny Side Up**

the_scotsman wrote:

Well, it's OK, only codex space marines gets to do that. In other factions, when you have that kind of ability, it's something like 2CP to give a captain aura to a troupe master, not "double the number of powers you get and halve the odds of failure, WooOOOoooOO!"

Lol. I wish Great Harlequin were as good as a Captain Aura, giving re-roll 1s across all phases.

**Karol**

Tyel 787352 10771951 wrote:
To a degree - but while due to the virus I've not been able to see I think you are going to find every Ork army takes advantage of their various Kustom Jobs in fairly predictable ways.

Which isn't to say "omg nerf" - but if a unit is always played in a certain way, it should probably just have those rules on the datasheet and be priced accordingly. Rather than giving the illusion you are some master of list building. See also the various inevitable (and required to vaguely have a chance) GSC combinations.

Creating this non-points based economy makes the game harder to balance, when the main element of doing so is points tweaks in CA.

But why would GW ever do that? instead of buying two books, one with your normal unit and the other with upgrades to it, you would be buying just one book.

**Mr Morden**

BaconCatBug wrote:
Apple Peel wrote:
Mr Morden wrote:
NinthMusketeer wrote:
I am disappointed GW did not extend the new marine rules & units to all the various sub-codex via errata when the new codex first dropped, which would still have left room for PA to add new relics & stratagems for specific factions.

Just make them all Supplements - saves all this half assed crap, only one printing of each element plus the ineviatable FAQ to fix them

No.
Two big marine books. Codex compliant and non-compliant. GK and DW go into Imperial Agents.
So anyone who wants to just play Space Wolves has to pay £50 extra for rules they don't want or need? I guess we can just throw all the Eldar into one book too. How about putting Orks and Eldar in the same book since they were both creations of the Old Ones? Hell, put Necrons in there too because they were part of the War in Heaven. Then lets put T'au in the book too because they were made by the Eldar.

Not this total BS argument again

All Marines are Marines. they ALL use the same base units. Now some units have different names - as they do in many many chapters, some even have a different weapon option or even a one line rule.

Wolves and Angels are Marines - right?
Ultras, White Scars etc are Marines - right.

They should therefore use the same base Codex and if needed haev a supplement for lore and the very very few actually unique units and the rules that make the Chapter appear a little different to the other 997 Chapters.

NOTHING is lost.

Wolves and Angels players have to buy the Codex and pretend campaign book now - right? Thats a camougn book with some Wolves and Angels lore and rules they don't need.

Seriously no one has answered this - is it a status symbol to have your own Codex as a Wolf/Angels player, is it that important that its not a supplement, do you need to lord it over others that donlt have them and deprieve other factions of more needed support..... is it?

**the_scotsman**

Karol wrote:
shortymcnostrill 787352 10771844 wrote:
This, also bcb seems to be mixing up the keywords. For example, putting all eldar (<aeldari&gt into one book would be the same as putting all marines, guard, sisters and all the other <imperium> factions in one book. Craftworlders for example already have all of their "chapters" bundled in a book, it's called codex: craftworld eldar.

yes, because DW and GK have so much overlap with IG or SoB, or even other marines. Plus what is the problem for eldar guardians and dark eldar have same stat line and costs, dark elder transports being identical to falcons. vypers being copies of venoms etc.

The kind of people who post here are not the normal 40k player. I can tell you from decades of real life experience that the vast, vast majority of players wouldn't have the first clue what's competitive and what isn't and even those who do won't necessarily use what's most powerful. That's true of my local scene and most other local metas I'm aware of. There are some clubs/metas where competitive gaming is king, of course, but when taken as a whole competitive 40k is a very small part of the overall 40k game-playing population.

Even if you want to argue about the pure numbers, attitudes like Slayer-123's are demonstrably not applicable to a very large number of gamers so any arguments made from that point of view are being made from a set of false assumptions.

It is applicable to everyone living in my country. w40k costs a lot, like a lot, a lot. Avarge salary here is 450$, I have never seen anyone go after a bad army knowingly, nor heard about anyone doing any of the fatastic stuff people talk about here. Like buying whole sets of models just so people with weaker armies can play having chance, buying multiple armies just to have armies to play against those with really strong or weak armies. Buying cars to transport all those models, or having gigantic flats to play at home.

And it is not competitive only thing. Out of all the people at my store, only like 5 go to play at something else then a store event. And some people, like for example me, never play at events at all. So no, your not going to convince me that the possibility of people picking bad armies and bad units is bigger then people playing good armies. Because if it was so, then the number of necron and GK players would be the same as marines or eldar. And stuff like IH being too good, or castellans being too good, would be a non problem, because no one would be taking those in to normal games. Although why we would get constant nerf something that just got good, or marrines should have one codex and always be bad threads, is kind of a hard to explain then.

I mean, speak for your own marine sub-sub-faction, but my deathwatch share all but three of their unit entries with codex: space marines. Grey Knights are the most unique marine sub-faction, but they still share about 10-ish unit entries between all the transports, flyers, dreadnoughts, shared HQs, etc.

Drukhari and Craftworlds share 0. Vypers and Venoms don't have the same stats because they are different models that mount completely different weapons. Why can't Vindicators and Predators be the same statline?

**grouchoben**

Well I've had a think about it and the good news is this: I honestly think this is a very strong indicator that GW have plans for Deathwach to be substantially changed as a faction.

Their reticence to include the new units that every other SM faction has received (bar the special-tidey-silver boys) suggests they don't want DW moving towards SM factions, and want them to keep a narrow roster, and their total lack of specific rules also suggests that GW don't want to exhaust the design space, in turn suggesting that they might be planning on roling them into an Inquisition faction. I mean, it is quite strange that Inquisition haven't really had any new rules except that WD piece. I think in about a year we'll see a big shakeup.