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Qyleterys wrote:
Does anyone else think that for the last PA book should’ve been DW, harlequins and Necrons? Like, it’s not as if the Inquisition have their own Chamber Militant specifically for dealing with xenos? Sisters just got a codex do they really need more?

One or two new datasheets, a Psychic discipline, Custom Order Convictions, a name generator, maybe a few more fun little Stratagems and some fluff. Not too much, but a PA book's worth.

I now suspect DW and Space Clowns will have features in Pariah fluff, but not enough rules + book fluff to justify the cost of the book.

Basically, I think someone at GW asked 'are we really going to make players pay for this?'

Lammia wrote:
I now suspect DW and Space Clowns will have features in Pariah fluff, but not enough rules + book fluff to justify the cost of the book.

Basically, I think someone at GW asked 'are we really going to make players pay for this?'

It hasn't stopped them before.
PA seems to provoke a "who got screwed the most" - but a number of factions got very little.
Really I struggle to believe Pariah is going to be *so full* they couldn't have slotted in 4~ pages of rules for DW and Harlequins.

I mean - super optimistic tinfoil hat on - if there were to be a second wave of DW/Harlequins coming, say in October/November, that would render any book released in July a bit pointless, then fair enough.
But not being able to put together say a few extra warlord traits, stratagems, a super doctrine etc seems a bit weak. Critics of GW's concern for balance abound - but this is something you could throw together in 24 hours.

But hey, if you have to pay money for a second warlord trait and Transhuman, its better a white dwarf than a book costing several times more.

Tyel wrote:

Lammia wrote:
I now suspect DW and Space Clowns will have features in Pariah fluff, but not enough rules + book fluff to justify the cost of the book.

Basically, I think someone at GW asked 'are we really going to make players pay for this?'

It hasn't stopped them before.
PA seems to provoke a "who got screwed the most" - but a number of factions got very little.
Really I struggle to believe Pariah is going to be *so full* they couldn't have slotted in 4~ pages of rules for DW and Harlequins.

I mean - super optimistic tinfoil hat on - if there were to be a second wave of DW/Harlequins coming, say in October/November, that would render any book released in July a bit pointless, then fair enough.
But not being able to put together say a few extra warlord traits, stratagems, a super doctrine etc seems a bit weak. Critics of GW's concern for balance abound - but this is something you could throw together in 24 hours.

But hey, if you have to pay money for a second warlord trait and Transhuman, its better a white dwarf than a book costing several times more.

And it hasn't stopped the criticisms in the past. It's a poor showing, there's no way of hiding that. But this time it's not hidden.

 Apple Peel wrote:

Qyleterys wrote:
Does anyone else think that for the last PA book should’ve been DW, harlequins and Necrons? Like, it’s not as if the Inquisition have their own Chamber Militant specifically for dealing with xenos? Sisters just got a codex do they really need more?

You ask that question instead of asking why DW, Harlequins, Sisters, and Necrons weren’t all in the same book?

It all depends on content. The last thing we needed was another book crammed full of new marine stuff with just a few pages for Necrons (and this is coming from someone who has Deathwatch and zero Necrons, and was extremely disappointed with what DW received).
If they did a measured inclusion of Deathwatch...say what they are getting in WD plus, 3 new relics, 3 new WTs, 3 new strats and a custom litany, that would have been OK. There would still be plenty of room for Necrons (who I hope take the Lion's share of the book), the new characters, and that's it. I honestly don't think Sisters need anything new at this stage, with maybe the exception of custom Orders. Certainly no new relics, strats, WTs etc.

Could that have been done? Yes, it really could, but Deathwatch would still have taken up a fair bit of space. It just seems odd that you have a book with Necrons, an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor, and you don't automatically go.."You know who else would be great in this book?"

More disappointed than usual? That implies that you are usually disappointed, which is a sad state of affairs.

Lammia wrote:

Qyleterys wrote:
Does anyone else think that for the last PA book should’ve been DW, harlequins and Necrons? Like, it’s not as if the Inquisition have their own Chamber Militant specifically for dealing with xenos? Sisters just got a codex do they really need more?

One or two new datasheets, a Psychic discipline, Custom Order Convictions, a name generator, maybe a few more fun little Stratagems and some fluff. Not too much, but a PA book's worth.

I now suspect DW and Space Clowns will have features in Pariah fluff, but not enough rules + book fluff to justify the cost of the book.

Basically, I think someone at GW asked 'are we really going to make players pay for this?'

Are you that unfamiliar with the practices of GW? Look up the Legion of the Damned codex. They wanted people to pay for THAT.

I guess my thoughs are that not getting anything unique to DW is a bummer and it's more than a little lazy to just copy/paste existing rules, but that doesn't mean that what they added isn't going to have an impact.

Most of DW's AT guns are on tanks and dreads; Duty Eternal, The Big Guns Never Tire, and Wrath of the Machine Spirit all help there.

DW had no use for the Primaris squads (locally anyway), getting the three Intercessor gun strats and Gene Wrought Might makes them more viable.

Transhuman Pysiology and Fury of the First helps keep the Vet squads from falling behind and also makes straight Terminator squads more viable.
.
DW suffers from not having Lieutenants, Doctrines means you can pick the "wound on 2+" ammo more often and that matters against a lot of things.

Being able to take a warlord trait on two characters isn't hurting anything.

It's weird that they reprinted the original Doctrine rules and the "go back one level" strat right after taking that away from everyone else, but it's not impossible that GW decided DW deserved the original version since they don't get a super doctrine. That is be unique to DW, at least for the moment, and it would be very much in keeping with the tactical flexibility that is their hallmark.

It really isn't flexibility because most of the weapons you want to use with Deathwatch are in the Tactical Doctrine anyway.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It really isn't flexibility because most of the weapons you want to use with Deathwatch are in the Tactical Doctrine anyway.

Tell that to the Frag Cannon, that thing is amazing. If regular Marines could carry it in the heavy slot you'd never see them armed with anything else.

Besides, my point was that DW have a ton of levers to flip to optimize killing a given target (SIA, Mission Tactics, deciding who needs a target-specific strat the most, etc) and playing them well is about balancing how much you can afford to increase effectiveness against this turn's priority targets at the expense of effectiveness against stuff that will be a problem next turn if you don't whittle it down. The original rules for switching Doctrine fit that design remit better than the current rules, and it would compensate some for DW not getting a super-doctine if they got to keep the old rules.

And for the record I don't play DW. I play against them on a regular basis and they were a [censored] to tackle with normal Marines unless I specifically counter-build against them BEFORE this update.

The Newman wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It really isn't flexibility because most of the weapons you want to use with Deathwatch are in the Tactical Doctrine anyway.

Tell that to the Frag Cannon, that thing is amazing. If regular Marines could carry it in the heavy slot you'd never see them armed with anything else.

Besides, my point was that DW have a ton of levers to flip to optimize killing a given target (SIA, Mission Tactics, deciding who needs a target-specific strat the most, etc) and playing them well is about balancing how much you can afford to increase effectiveness against this turn's priority targets at the expense of effectiveness against stuff that will be a problem next turn if you don't whittle it down. The original rules for switching Doctrine fit that design remit better than the current rules, and it would compensate some for DW not getting a super-doctine if they got to keep the old rules.

And for the record I don't play DW. I play against them on a regular basis and they were a [censored] to tackle with normal Marines unless I specifically counter-build against them BEFORE this update.

The Frag Cannon? You mean the thing that has the stats of either Assault 2D6 8" or Assault 2 24" that would benefit in the Tactical Doctrine instead?

Yeah I got news for ya buddy

That thing is Assault?

[checks]

Well nuggets. Doesn't change anything I said about [edit] how DW plays or how to get the best results with it [/edit] tho.

Yeesh... No wonder this was put into WD rather than a book.